Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

Void · 2023-02-19 13:59:21

Nice video. However, I believe that sandstone warmed by sunlight to at least -20 C could host life that eats Hydrogen and CO out of the atmosphere. I think it likely that such bugs from Earth could live in those conditions. Eating Hydrogen then also provides water to the organism.

And there is the notion of CO2 ice allowing for pressurized water under it.

Done.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-12 08:11:37

More of a Troglobite ecosystem and more spelunking people arriving?

Mars Has Bizarre “Swiss Cheese” Terrain. You can Thank Water, Carbon Dioxide and 500,000 years of Climate History for That

https://www.universetoday.com/160459/ma … -for-that/

Seen from space, regions of Mars around the south pole have a bizarre, pitted “Swiss cheese” appearance. These formations come from alternating massive deposits of CO2 ice and water ice, similar to different layers of a cake. For decades, planetary scientists wondered how this formation was possible, as it was long believed that this layering would not be stable for long periods of time.

Calliban · 2023-04-20 04:36:04

Isaac Arthur discusses living underground.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iBPMIUPz6 … MgYXJ0aHVy

On Earth, the benefits are marginal in most places. Underground construction costs substantially more. On the moon, Mars and many other worlds, underground construction is more beneficial. On Mars, it offers protection from the cold, from cosmic rays and avoids having to build structures as pressure vessels.

The main problem is food. Farming underground means growing with artificial light. That will be energy intensive and will generate waste heat which will need to be radiated. So I think it likely that food will be grown above ground using natural sunlight, even if humans are living underground.

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-20 06:12:51

For Calliban re #53

Human ingenuity is going to be at work on Mars, as it is on Earth.

Any heat left over by highly efficient LED lamps will be most welcome for heating of interior growing spaces. No heat will go to waste in that setting.

In any case, it is human nature to compete to try to find the most efficient solution for a given problem.

No doubt there will be teams of folks who try your preferred growing environment above ground.

Other teams, equally bull headed, will build entire systems of growing space underground.

Each will succeed in producing plants and other food stuffs. Accountants will measure each expenditure and output, and papers will be written on which approach is the better choice for Mars.

*** Re #53 *** Isaac Arthur was recently chosen as head of the National Space Society.

National Space Society In 2020, Arthur was named the recipient of the National Space Society's Space Pioneer Award for Education via Mass Media for his YouTube channel. On March 1st, 2023, Arthur was elected President of the National Space Society.
Isaac Arthur - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Isaac_Arthur

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-05-25 11:54:45

A deep underground lab could hold key to habitability on Mars

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/2023/ … ty-on-mars

Researchers at the University of Birmingham have launched the Bio-SPHERE project in a unique research facility located 1.1 km below the surface, in one of the deepest mine sites in the UK. The project investigates how scientific and medical operations would take place in the challenging environments of the Moon and Mars.

It is the first of a series of new laboratory facilities planned to study how humans might work – and stay healthy – during long space missions, a key requirement for ensuring mission continuity on other planets.

The team is working in partnership with the Boulby Underground Laboratory, a 4,000m3 deep underground facility focused on particle physics, Earth sciences and astrobiology research, run by the Science and Technology Facilities Council (part of UK Research and Innovation) with the support of the Boulby Mine operators, ICL-UK.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-06-29 09:53:54

different to the drama of a Thailand Cave Rescue? when Musk claimed he would be possibly making “kid-sized submarine” to rescue?

NASA runs a tiny, isolated cabin that simulates a year of life on Mars, and for some reason,
https://www.businessinsider.com/nasa-ca … ror-2023-6
they put a book about the psychological horrors of cave exploration in it

Photographed in the Mars Dune Alpha's capsule library was a book titled "Blind Descent: The Quest to Discover the Deepest Cave on Earth," a novel by James Tabor. In the book, Tabor documents the journeys of Bill Stone and Alexander Klimchouk, adventurers who've traversed some of the world's deepest caves.
And it's pretty terrifying.
"Both men spent months almost two vertical miles deep, contending with thousand-foot drops, raging whitewater rivers, monstrous waterfalls, mile-long belly crawls, and the psychological horrors produced by weeks in absolute darkness, beyond all hope of rescue," reads the book's Amazon listing.
A review of the book on Publishers Weekly is also really something.
"Holds the reader to his seat, containing dangers aplenty with deadly falls, killer microbes, sudden burial, asphyxiation, claustrophobia, anxiety, and hallucinations far underneath the ground in a lightless world," reads the review.
There are other books in the capsule library, including "Space Physiology" by Jay C. Buckey, which makes sense. Also in the collection is "The Five Dysfunctions of a Team" by Patrick Lencioni, which might be useful considering the four-people-in-a-box-for-a-year predicament.
The team will have plenty of ways to occupy their time beyond reading, too.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-06-29 09:54:12)

SpaceNut · 2023-08-30 16:53:50

https://youtu.be/BqPtClvahWw?si=QWKcRqTMay4etPmg

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-30 17:37:47

Modern CAVE HOUSE is Man's Life Long Dream - 5,700 sq ft!

SpaceNut's link in #57 sure does come close to the spirit of this topic!

(th)

Calliban · 2023-08-31 00:06:55

SpaceNut's linked video is inspiring, especially when you consider that this man was working on a shoe string budget. On Mars, this will be the default way of building. It will be neccesary to build underground to provide insulation against the cold, static pressure against vacuum and shielding against hard radiation.

Around the turn of the last century, an Italian man built a huge underground property on a 10-acre site in Fresno, California.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mUKRPoQKynk

He ran an underground citrus farm. The above ground was too hot and arid to inhabit, so he decided to dig in. Most impressive of all, he dug into the hard sandstone entirely by hand. His property is huge. Trees are planted in wells leading up to the surface. A similar thing would work on Mars, with gardens planted in pits, beneath a cap dome that is anchored into the walls of the pit.

On Mars, mining activities will cut out slabs of sand stone, which can be used as bed rocks for roads. The vacant spaces created could be used as habitation space. As the environment appears to be dry, internal walls could be constructed from rubble, bonded with adobe cement, adobe plaster and painted with lime or some other aesthetic sealant. After initial heating, the process heat released by equipment and body heat will keep the habitat warm.

People have used cob and adobe to make internal furniture as well.
https://decoratoo.com/cob-homes-96/

Cob bench:
http://www.kirknielsen.com/wp-content/u … -Bench.jpg

Stone shelves built into a cob wall:
http://www.kirknielsen.com/wp-content/u … terior.jpg

Fire place with bench:
http://www.kirknielsen.com/wp-content/u … eplace.jpg

More here:
http://traditionalcraftuca.blogspot.com … 3/cob.html

Cob hot tub:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UxMo4asOSZs

Cob bed with straw mattress:
https://theyearofmud.com/2009/09/11/how … -mattress/

Stone tables:
http://www.doolin-stone.com/gallery/

See also:
https://www.notechmagazine.com/2011/12/ … -sudu.html

These housing units are built entirely from local stone and adobe. No wood is used at all.

The decorated mud houses of Burkina Faso.
https://www.amusingplanet.com/2013/01/d … rkina.html

Again, this is likely to the default option on Mars. We won't have timber to waste. Plastic is energetically expensive and a fire hazard. So people will mould furniture out of clay and seal it with oils and waxes.

On Earth, underground living is relatively uncommon. It usually more expensive to excavate a volume than it is to enclose it with a weather proof housing. Another problem is that in most inhabited areas, the water table is quite high. If underground volumes are not tanked, then they are vulnerable to flooding. On Mars, the water table is hundreds of metres beneath ground in most places and will be frozen solid. Flooding will only be a hazard if you build next to an aquifer. In most places, it shoukd be possible to excavate several levels into the rock. This will assist with heat retention.

Surface structures will need to be engineered pressure vessels. They must either be tensile structures or masonry covered by several metres of overburden. Either way, excavating habitable volume may turn out to be the cheapest option.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-08-31 02:05:53)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-31 06:39:00

For Calliban re #59 and SpaceNut's linked video ...

If you have a moment, please comment upon the nature of explosives that might assist with excavation. I noticed that the chap in the video used explosives to perform much of the excavation.

SearchTerm:Explosives on Mars for mining or excavation

I asked Google, and it came back with way too much information about explosives. However, here is one snippet that may be pertinent:

Emulsion and slurry explosives
Emulsion and slurry explosives are relatively new types of explosives that are mixtures of nitrates and other substances, often in a water-based system. They are now replacing nitroglycerine-based explosives for many uses, particularly in quarrying. A small proportion of emulsion and slurry explosives are produced as pre-packed, ready to use products. Most of this type of explosives, however, is manufactured at the scene (shot hole), immediately prior to use. This mixing is carried out on a specially designed mixer truck that carries the necessary ingredients for producing a fully active explosive.

The source for that quote is: https://www.ukfrs.com/guidance/search/c … their-uses

I would imagine explosives optimized for Mars would use local ingredients as much as possible, and there is some but not a lot of nitrogen. Nitrogen might be accumulated by careful management of gases collected while compressing the atmosphere to make high volume requirements like oxygen and carbon monoxide.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-08-31 07:35:53

I would suggest mixing liquid methane and LOX in a metal tube and igniting it with a spark plug. If the tube is slotted into a hole drilled into the rock, the resulting pressure will fracture the rock. On Mars, we will have lots of LOX and methane, as they are likely to be the rocket propellant combination that is used. Both are safe until mixed together.

An alternative and more reusable approach, would be to use a ram pump. You ignite a mixture of oxygen and fuel in a chamber and use the explosive force to drive a piston. This would ram water into a hole at a pressure of thousands of atmospheres. As the water is incompressible, it would be like driving an iron bar into the rock, except the water disperses after the shock. You can do it over and over, until the rock face is completely shattered. The face may collapse into rubble. If not, a pneumatic drill can complete the job.

NewMarsMember · 2023-08-31 07:43:24

For Calliban re #61

While you are on a roll, with the efficient sounding solutions you've proposed for excavation of living space, I'd like to invite your consideration of Mount Olympus as a habitat. It seems to me you (as planet manager) might prefer to excavate habitat higher on the mountain first, so that rubble can be safely dispersed to lower levels. That rubble could then be transported elsewhere for use in projects of all kinds. it would (presumably) take a while to populate the entire mountain, but when the project is finished there should be safe, comfortable accommodation for significant numbers of residents.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-08-31 09:20:51

The hydraulic ram interests me the most, as the energy source driving the piston could be almost anything. It could be a chemical reaction from a fuel-oxygen mix; compressed air, a spring or even direct-electric using a solenoid.

Chemical fuels and explosives would be expensive on Mars, because we have to use electricity to make them, which ends up being highly inefficient. We are converting nuclear energy into heat, heat into mechanical power, mechanical power into electricity, electricity into chemical energy, chemical energy into heat (during detonation) and finally, through the pressure of the contained hot gases, thermal energy into mechanical energy, shattering the rock. From the electrical energy out of our powerplant, barely a tenth is ultimately captured in fracturing the rock and the charge is not reusable. With a hydraulic ram, we could use electrical energy to pressurise water, which is incompressible. The efficiency of the ram should be better than 50% and could reach 80%. And we get to reuse it over and over.

I have no doubt Olympus Mons will eventually be inhabited. Where to build the early bases will be a complex decision, based upon access to resources. We don't want to be too far from the equator. A source of liquid ground water would be ideal, even if it is salty brine. Geothermally heated water with a temperature greater than 20°C, would be a find of immense importance, as it would allow heating of agricultural domes. That cuts dramatically the amount of power we must produce on Mars. Ore resources would be valuable as well, although geothermally heated water is far more important. In fact, I can almost guarentee that the first settlement will be built where there is known (or reasonably expected to be) warm ground water.

Any hill with the correct rock quality could be used as a habitat, as material is mined out. If we have a direct use for the material that is mined, so much the better. Roads are something we are going to need. Unimproved regolith contains fine dust and abrasive rock, both of which will shorten the life of vehicles driving across it. Solid, paved roads will greatly improve our ability to access the resources of the planet. I think we will ultimately want millions of km of roads on the planet.
*************

Additional: If we are carrying rock waste down a hill side, then the energy needed for transportation of the rock away from the mine can be provided by gravity. In a previous topic, we discussed the use of ropeways for transporting goods over difficult terrain. The gravitational potential energy stored in the rock, should be sufficient to transport it many km away from the mine and to return the empty baskets up the hill. A gravity ropeway is a very simple device. It is a set of baskets that hang from a cable, which is pulled over hoists. Every part of a ropeway can be made from steel, including the cable. On Earth, corrosion neccesitates a stainless steel cable. On Mars, carbon-manganese steel would be adequate. The hoists and towers can all be low-alloy structural steel.

An interesting question is what to make the bearings out of and how to lubricate them in the cold low pressure environment of Mars. Maybe nonane would be a workable lubricant on Mars?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonane

Melting point is -54°C and vapour pressure at 25°C is 590Pa. So at typical Martian temperatures it should remain liquid with a low rate of evaporation, especially if the bearing is reasonably well encapsulted. Roller bearings could be lubricated with a lube oil containing octane, nonane and decane. These are too light and too flammable to be useful as lube oils on Earth. But in the Martian cold, their viscosity will be much higher. Most of what we use for lube oils here on Earth, would wax out at typucal Martian temperatures. We can produce them using condensation reactions, which allow alcohols to build up heavy chain hydrocarbons. Whilst this would be an expensive way of making fuels on Mars, we need lube oils and hydraulic oils in much smaller quantities.

On Earth, ropeways have been used to transport materials over distances approaching 100km.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_ropeway

Maybe we could use systems like this to transport the materials needed to make roads? Buckets could be hinged to tip materials alongside roads during construction. When the road is completed, the towers could be taken down and the ropeway can be rerouted and extended.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-08-31 10:42:52)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-10 18:59:29

The Great Underground Park Of Salina Turda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDzZvM6QjRA

trapped for 8 days, to rescue USA's Mark Dickey, Westchester County man

American explorer trapped in Turkey cave now halfway to escape as rescue continues – latest
https://www.yahoo.com/news/difficult-re … 05206.html

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-11-27 05:12:32

the experienced American cave explorer Mark Dickey got rescued from Turkey cave after being trapped

became ill 3,400 feet or 1036.3 meters underground

and another event

'Indian army digs by hand to free 41 trapped tunnel workers'

https://news.yahoo.com/indian-army-digs … 15005.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-11-27 05:14:43)

SpaceNut · 2023-11-27 08:11:46

One would believe that cave dwelling on mars would not be any deeper than one would require for radiation protection. Also the only reason to use a natural cave is to reduce equipment and resources to get additional roof over what we are planning to do for mars.

Calliban · 2023-11-27 11:30:46

Building underground brings us four benefits simultaneously. Firstly, a layer of rock and soil greater than two metres thick shields out cosmic rays and reduces dose rates comparable to those on Earth surface. Secondly, a layer of rock and soil some 10m thick will provide about 1 bar of downward pressure on Mars, sufficient to balance the internal pressure of any structure. Thirdly, a layer of overburden several metres thick, provides excellent thermal insulation once a stable temperature gradient is achieved. And Mars gets extremely cold. Finally, any small meteors that get past the atmosphere would be stopped by a thick layer of overburden.

The weight of overburden eliminates the need for tensile structures to counteract the pressure of a breathable atmosphere. This is important because masonry materials can be produced with minimal energy and resources. We can build quite impressive walls on Mars using nothing more complex than loose rocks or compressed adobe bricks, cemented together with wet regolith. Simple economics will drive us underground. Mars will be a subterrainian civilisation until the atmosphere is thick enough to allow habitable ambient pressure domes. Even then, the cold will make livihg above ground expensive.

Mars does not appear to have any near surface ground water or precipitation. This makes it easy to produce habitable volume, simply by heaping size sorted regolith over a frame. A densely packed matrix of micron sized clay particles will form a very effective labyrinth seal, preventing air from leaking out. As soon as we can produce cast iron or cast basalt for roof members, this will be a very cheap way of producing habitable space. We could even build walls from dry stone, provided there is regolith behind them.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-27 11:32:51)

Calliban · 2023-11-27 13:08:09

This is what I had in mind.

After I had drawn this, it occured to me that the beams would be stronger if they were arched and absorbed forces compressively.

Cast iron can be made to melt at temperatures as low as 1000°C by adding up to 2% carbon. It can be cast in simple sand moulds. But it is brittle and one should avoid subjecting it to large tensile loads. So a curved structure is best. Instead of placing large rocks directly onto the iron frame, we could use polyethylene bags, filled with fine regolith. This avoids any hard edges in contact with the frame. We would then put a layer of fine regolith over the bags, tamp it down and then cover the whole structure in mixed grade regolith to a depth of several metres.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-27 13:21:26)

Calliban · 2023-11-27 17:42:05

In terms of lighting within Mars structures, the options are as varied as on Earth. Mental health is an important consideration, as people may not see the sun for days or weeks at a time. Lighting would probably be LED for energy efficiency. I think we would attempt to replicate an Earth daylight spectrum so far as efficiency allows.

For the structure we are considering above, my preference would be to make the roof at least 10m high to the top of the columns and then another 10m to the crown of the arch. I would plaster the roof with a regolith-water mix and paint it blue. During the day, I would illuminate the blue roof with ground level LEDs. These could be powered by solar panels on the surface, with illumination levels driven by insolation on the surface panels.

Individual houses and other structures could be built under this structure using adobe bricks. As there will never be any rain within the structure, all of these buildings can be made entirely from mud brick. Upper floors will be supported by brick domes and vaults. Each structure will have a potted roof garden on its flat rooftop. So essentially, we build a town under the pillared roof structure and make the underside of the roof look like an Earth sky. We would plant trees and gardens between the buildings. We would need enough artificial light for these to grow.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-27 17:45:16)

SpaceNut · 2023-11-27 18:02:20

RobertDyck's post for the hillside structure contains these images and talks to the lighting as well.

tahanson43206 · 2023-11-27 18:22:31

For SpaceNut re #70

If you have time, please go back and add a link to the RobertDyck series ... I remember it, but would have a tough time finding it.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-11-27 18:56:38

From the MyHacienda

RobertDyck wrote:

Edit:
spaceNut wrote:
links
http://www.marsfoundation.org/hillside-settlement/
http://www.marshome.org/images2/thumbnails.php?album=90
The Mars Homestead: a Mars Base Constructed from Local Materials
http://marshome.org/documents.php
Aww. My villa is designed to be the first on Mars. I designed my villa to be a "get away" for myself, some place to take a beautiful woman, and a start on Mars. It's designed to support a dozen visiting scientists (eg NASA scientists) to study Mars, at a price. Cost of a single seat on Soyuz was $82 million US dollars in 2015. The last 2 seats cost $75 million each in 2017. Now imagine the price I could charge per seat for a trip to Mars! Including stay in a luxury villa on Mars, for a day, a weekend, a week, a month, or multiple months! I smell profit!
Since the book "Red Mars" by Kim Stanley Robinson (1992) people have expected the first colonial transport will carry 100 settlers. My villa is designed to produce food, to be stored in a warehouse. This food could be purchased by new settlers. My intention is to have 26 months of food for 100 settlers before the first SpaceX colonial transport arrives. I also intend to mine Mars resources, smelt, refine, and manufacture components to build housing and life support for 100 settlers. Think of my warehouse as Lowe's or Home Depot or Menards or the Canadian company Rona. I wouldn't build habitats, but would have construction materials and tools to do so. The first job of new settlers would be to build their own housing. I would also produce propellant sufficient to refuel a SpaceX transport, so it could return to Earth.
If a billionaire wants to build an exclusive villa on Mars, I would be available as construction personnel and materials to build said villa. If that billionaire finds his plumbing fails on Mars, I would be available to fix it. Think of me as "Joe the Plumber" for billionaires on Mars.
My idea is a modification of the "Hillside Settlement" of the Mars Homestead Project. That isn't a coincidence, I was part of that project. Artwork was done by architect Georgi Petrov who got his Master degree in architecture from MIT for this, and artist Phil Smith. I couldn't do what they did; I'm a computer programmer and wanna-be aerospace engineer, not an artist. Some of the artwork from Mars Homestead...

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-29 17:24:34

Extreme Caving: Unraveling Human History Underground through Pushing the Boundaries of Exploration Caves
https://worldofcaves.com/extreme-caving/

Abismo: The story of a bottomless pit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9S6tT0Kocc

Calliban · 2023-12-31 11:03:35

The Urban Hut Mud lab is an exploration of the use of mud as a building material and the construction of built-in furniture.
http://vernaculars.urbunhut.com/mudlab.html

I can see this being especially important on Mars where we won't have abundant wood and the entire surface is covered in dessicated clay. On Earth this could have applications as well, as it allows the use of an abundant natural material and DIY to create things that may otherwise be unaffordable.

Void · 2024-01-01 10:39:48

I am very interested in encouraging your work here. I don't like to interfere but nobody else has showed up for this one.

The idea of turning bulk raw materials into useful things is what you have presented, and I like that. By the way, Happy New Year.

I have a new combination to ponder on that relates to your post, it is not high creativity, but Mars may need a lot of low creation to be made more situatable to human needs and desires.

Coffee......

Pee Bricks are remembered: https://science.howstuffworks.com/envir … d-gold.htm Quote:

Bricks Made of Urine — Our Pee Is 'Liquid Gold'
By: Jesslyn Shields

I suppose we could also do that but I was thinking of trying Acetate, perhaps with a bit of Urine for fertilizer.
I think it very likely to want to grow Algae, Yeast, and Mushrooms at least with Acetate, so maybe also to make a modified pee brick including it? It would be an energy source. https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2022/june/g … catalysis/ It may be that the acetate will eventually be able to assist vascular plants to grow as well. An organic fiber would be desired. Say Bamboo or Hemp. So then the bricks, having organic fiber in them may also be hardened using the Pee-Acetate Microbe Method (That is not tested or proven but is suspected to be possible). Quote:

Martian Soil Can Be Compressed Into Bricks Stronger Than Concrete
SPACE
28 April 2017
ByPETER FARQUHAR, BUSINESS INSIDER

An unusual material as you typically cannot add organic fiber to a hard brick, only a mud brick. That being due to bricks usually needing a high heat treatment.

But of course you post about simply using mud to make bulk items it perfectly valid still. I recall that the Martian materials can even be compressed into brick. https://www.sciencealert.com/it-turns-o … n-concrete

So, it appears that there may be a lot of raw materials available that may be of use.

And yes you post about making things out of Mud is a good one.

I am going to collect this into my other topic under terraforming as I want to tie it with Sandstone, Volcanic Ash Deposits, and ice bodies.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-01-01 11:00:55)

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#51 2023-02-19 13:59:21

Re: Living inside Mountains / Caves on Mars?

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#64 2023-09-10 18:59:29

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