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#326 2019-06-19 11:36:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Spacenut said:

Nasa and others make use of scaled models in wind tunnels to show how the entry into the atmosphere and launch will behave for the design. They also use simular test tunnels for heat sources to see how shielding will behave as well....

That is true.

It seems that there is a posting drought at this time.  This both makes me want to withdraw, and yet maybe to post.  A little anxiety about the potential of "Every good deed will be punished!".

But I will post.

First of all, have a but of humor.  Make cartoons for this as well as perhaps considering it for space flight.

For instance a flattened pointed Starship with loon legs poking out of it's engine bell, toes pointed out like a ballerina on descent, and then the powered landing, the device standing on loon legs.  Perhaps if more than two legs, perhaps four, looking like the hut of Babba Yaga.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga

But lets turn Starship into a turtle.  Probably no need for a head hole in the shell, actually probably undesirable.  But the arm holes could be stick out or retract into the shell like some turtles.

As for the feet holes, actually just an engine bay skirt.  The Ballerina turtle can pull it's feet up or extend them outside of the skirt, legs and arms to guide the descent through atmosphere.  You can allow your turtle to have lipstick if you want to, but it would not be likely to poke a head out of the head hole, as so far I see no reason for a head hole.

https://wikizilla.org/wiki/Gamera

Of course, no head hole, and a better bottom shell for aero braking.  And gamera, wears a skirt for the engine compartment.  Lipstick optional.

So, imagine that the Viking spacecraft with aeroshell, and backshell, got married to the existing Starship.  That would be proper if they would going to have children.  The offspring are like a cross between a flying saucer, and a pointy thingy Starship.  The offspring took up skydiving, but its arms and legs were neither innies or outies.  They were all innie-outies.  The legs could hide in the skirt (Engine compartment, the arms could retract flush with the shell if that is desired.

So while this shape might have some drag penalties while punching up through the troposphere, the actuating fins and legs would not be out in the air drag.  Also, I think that there would be less compulsion to make them into major aero-braking devices.  Rather on re-entry, you would try to make it do a turtle bottom shell, presentation, and poke arms and legs out as needed to hold the presentation as desired.

I anticipate that there could be some glide capability to this device, so perhaps it could like the space shuttle, (I think), use that to dwell in the higher atmosphere a bit longer, to bleed off velocity, perhaps in a less intense manner than just doing a skydiver plunge at higher speed and into thicker atmosphere sooner than is optimal.

I have previously mentioned how this device could be joined to a modified super heavy, and I also mentioned that perhaps the use of some injected gasses behind the ascending phase, might relieve wake vacuum to a degree, and also the gasses just might serve to lubricate the Super Heavies travel though the troposphere.

But, not without difficulties, the Super Heavy could have an oval cross section to match the engine skirt of the Starship.  In all cases, I understand that the modifications suggested will complicate in particular, the propellant tanks.  But then there would be no significant vacuum wake on assent.  You might still want to see if you could lubricate the walls of the assembly as it projected upwards.

And I can see some potential problems with trying to use a gas lubricant.  If it contains moisture, but is hot, then there is going to be an argument as to weather ice will build up on the Super Heavy, particularly proximate to the propellant tank skin.

And as I have said, the modifications will require alterations in particular to propellant tanks.  It seems that a tubular configuration is preferred for propellant tanks.

But this is just talk and cartoons, isn't it?  No space entities harmed just yet.

I note that Falcon Heavy, approximates an oval, with three ~Falcon 9 1st stages used.

Done

Last edited by Void (2019-06-19 12:20:05)


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#327 2019-06-19 17:37:04

SpaceNut
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Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

I have drawings and Este's brand rockets that I made as a teenager. It was a blast firing them with the solid rocket engines, doing multi stage and doing scissor wings and so much more. So how it look is less of an importance to will it work for what you want it to do.
We have many things that we would want to do but it will take more than one style of rocket to get it done.

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#328 2019-06-19 18:30:15

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Well I hope they make Starship per their plans.  It is rumored that they will alter the wings, flaps, and legs.

This other thing I have proposed, could be looked at later, and evaluated for purpose and merit.  Just a little bit of fun.

Done

Last edited by Void (2019-06-19 18:30:43)


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#329 2019-07-19 09:28:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

OK, "WORDS!". 
In this line of posting I now seek to fight against the typical tendency to go circular.  I intend to promote A>B thinking.
Be sure you understand that I value circular thinking, as when it is done for it's best purpose it keeps us from spiraling down.  But as most tools, it can also be used for what I consider a bad purpose, to prevent a spiral up.  Here we define down as a loss, and up as a gain.  But that is only a reference frame which can be useful.
Here, I think I may be in a site location where it is permissible to think large, to try to discover new potentials, evaluate them and in that process make some evaluation of our path of A>B.
This is sort of "Alternate BFR".  So, I will use that as a sort of fig leaf, the use of which is likely to be beneficial.  I have quite a lot of admiration of what SpaceX is doing, think much of others as well.
I sort of want to go out of bounds, to find new potentials to consider.  I feel that we are poised to spiral up, and I want to see if anything I think could be of value for that purpose. A reference to what I am seeking to promote is: 
Index
» Interplanetary transportation
» Heat on aerobreak.
Lets suppose that the reference starts at post #36, and crashes at about post #47, at least at this time my notion of reality supports that "NOTION".
So then, to the things that might be attempted to be accomplished with "WORDS"......I will take a lot of intermittent breaks here.  Really outside of the box, which is where I sometime like to be.

……


I am thinking to some degree of how to recapture the energy of intercept of Mars, and to use it to land.  Perhaps it will prove not feasible in reality, but in theory it may be possible.

The current notion is to shed energy upon aero burn.  However, that is energy, and if you could capture some of it, you might benefit in a landing, using that energy at least in part for the landing.  Really the idea would be to capture the heat as pressurized steam of some sort, and to use that steam to do a hover slam landing.  I do have some potential assistive methods to consider as well.

Per the reference materials from that other topic, I have already suggested methods to cause materials to arrive to the Martian surface.  So far, scrap metals desired, or perhaps mirrors.  I think that there may be a better potential.

I am also interested in incorporating some kind of "Transformer" method as well.

I also hope to incorporate multiple usages of mass as well as energy.

……

So, then objects that resemble a bell.

I had previously tried to couple a mirror delivered to Mars for use, with a heat shield on its convex surface.  So, I consider that to be in the family of bells.

I had also previously referenced a inflatable heat shield NASA is trying to work with:
https://www.space.com/nasa-spacecraft-m … dings.html
I will claim that that falls in the family of bell shapes, a cone shaped rubber bell, I suppose.

It does not hurt to take a reference from nature as well, the Limpet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpet
A creature with a one piece cone shell, which protects it in certain directions, but allows the internal organs access to the outside on the bottom of the creature.  This seems to be in the form of a broad based cone bell shape.

I feel the need to reference back to the SpaceX BFR err.....Starship, in order to be not accused to be off topic.

So, you could mount a limpet shell like heat shield on top of Starship, and suffer problems with added mass and drag, getting off Earth.  But on arrival to Mars, you might have a broader heat shield.  And if you purpose also could be to deliver the heatshield to Mars as structure or scrap metal, it might be somewhat justified.  It is at this moment imagined to be a single bell shell heat shield.

Interestingly, I think that it would shed heat both from its "Windward side" and it's leeward side.  Keeping with the current policy of SpaceX as I understand, it could be proposed that that heat shield would be primarily of stainless steel.  Quite heavy I am sure.  Although their may be advantages as far as aerobraking, and materials delivered, there would be a terrible penalty in getting the thing up through the troposphere.  You then also have to pay for the mass grunted up through the Earth's gravity well.

A certain relief from some of that burden would be to build the "Bell" off Earth.  You might still grunt the materials for it to be built from Earth where finer materials can be obtained, but then you still have to pay the price of lifting.

Using vacuum deposition to construct "Bells", seems like a path to try.  Getting the mass from off-Earth also seems like a preference, if it can be done with quality.

So, with those methods, some of the penalties of the notion can be reduced.  But, I intend to find further benefits with a modification of the bell.

It may not hurt at this point to visualize a "Bell".
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Bell&FORM=HDRSC2

It is amusing to imagine a spacecraft shaped like that, but remember, that for me, the "Class" "Bell" also includes cones, and concave mirrors.  For the moment though literally think of a bell.

And I want a two-shell bell.  A somewhat smaller bell inside of a somewhat bigger bell.  Joined at the "Bottom" perimeter, probably of metals in both cases, but not necessarily so.

If you fill the interior of the gap between the bells with a substance, depending on the substance, I believe that you have chances of capturing the heat of entry to the Martian atmosphere as pressurized steam, that you might use to try to use as propulsion for landing.

You basically have a steam drum.  It has to be able to hold the pressure.

Actually although the materials used for the steam source could be many things, but for this argument, for now I am going to suggest water.  You fill the void between the dual bells with water, and presumably it freezes.  Of course the expansion of water has a potential to rupture the structure.  So, that has to be handled some way.  But upon entry to the Martian atmosphere, you have two phase changes to absorb heat.  Ice to water, water to steam.

So, a mechanism that has chances of capturing some of the linear energy of launch to Mars, into pressurized steam.  I think this is a new thing.  I am not claiming that it is feasible as to deliver desired results, but only that it seems to me to be a new game, and I would like to explore it's potentials and the problems with it.  It reverses some of the notions that are currently operated under, and that is amusing.

For instance mass of bells and the content materials, is no longer only a burden, but potentially an asset.

If it were necessary to use PICA-X for some locations on the heat shield, I do not block such response to discovered requirements.  However, if the intention is to capture some of the energy of aero-burn, then the less PICA-X, and the more bare metal the better.

So, then to be useful, your "BOILER" held between the double shells has to be able to hold the pressure until the steam is vented as landing thrust.  In order to make this more plausible, I will also source SpaceX starship technology.  That is you could have chemical thrusters as well to assist.  Say a starship in the interior shelter of the Bell(s).

Actually I also have a "DIRT" engine to assist landing, which should be amusing to describe, but that can wait.

The intention is to deliver a useful product.  You could leave out the Starship, and use as much steam thrust as you could to buffer the crash landing.  That is if your only intention was to deliver scrap metals.  The hope would be to slow the terminal velocity sufficiently that the delivered scrap was recoverable to humans on the surface to be re-cycled to make things they needed.

But if you intended to deliver the double bell shell(s) to the surface to be used as formed, a softer landing is required.

If you did land them and had the means to handle them, you could cut the shells apart at the "Bottom" perimeter, and then join them in another shape, say something like an egg shaped chamber which would hold pressure.  Potential habitat for humans and plants, ect.

This could be done if the bells were standard bell shape, cones, or semi-spheres.  In some cases you could get two mirrors out of each bell.

So, a chance to re-purpose them.

……

I will Segway a bit....

In interplanetary flight, such a bell shape might provide radiation protection, if that is desired.  The gap between the shells is to be filled with "Water"? after all.  You could point the "Apex" of the bell(s) to the sun.  The interior of the bell(s) then being relatively protected.

And the base of the bell, can be toroidal, so you may spin the bell on it's long axis, and get some synthetic gravity, or you might put a centrifuge at that location, and not spin the bell.

The interior of the bells(s) is essentially a unpressurized cargo hold.  You may place many transformer items into it.  Such as deployable solar panels, human habitats, and so on.  In flight between Earth/Moon and Mars, these items can be deployed inside and outside the bell, during flight.  In getting ready for aeroburn, items no longer deemed worth delivering to the surface of Mars could be ejected to lighten things up a bit.

I am aware that there is some ambiguity in my descriptions so far as to what is intended.  That is because I want to leave open options.  You would not necessarily do all of the things, but would cherry pick a collection of what you wanted for a end purpose.

……

So the dirt engine.


Leaving out humans and prior to re-entry removing reusable thruster technology, I believe that there may exist a method(s) to assist a relatively soft delivery to the surface of Mars.

1) Fluidized Sand Bed:
https://nerdist.com/article/sand-fluid- … dized-bed/
So, if you had the means to create such, and had the accuracy to deliver the bell to it, you could "Splash Down" in it.

2) Explosive Sand Plume.  Prior to "Splash Down", you could set off some explosives embedded in the fluid sand, and cause a "Sand Eruption to explode into the mouth of the descending bell.  (This is not likely compatible with Raptor engines and such things).

3) In a like manner, you may spout rocket exhaust into the bells mouth on it's descent.  Engines on the ground erupting a stream of gas fluids upwards from the ground.  (If you are not accurate enough with the descent of the bell(s) though, you risk smashing the descending assembly into the ground engines.

For now, I think that is enough.

At the center is the desire(s) to deliver useful materials to Mars, and also to re-use the energy of launch from the Earth/Moon to Mars.  These desires are not wrong, but I cannot be assured that the methods are practical.  That needs consideration.

Done

Last edited by Void (2019-07-19 10:53:25)


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#330 2019-07-19 18:53:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,557

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

I should not be surprised that the first link for bing on "earth departure to mars speed" was from our very own G.W. https://exrocketman.blogspot.com/2018/0 … -mars.html as it is the factor for mars aero burn...

Velocity Requirements for Mars Orbit-Orbit Missions is the burn for orbit and not of a landing that an aero burn would do
https://exrocketman.blogspot.com/2012/0 … orbit.html
https://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/expres … l_moi.html

The aeroburn targets to enter into the atmosphere whereby it can slice hard towards the planet using the atmosphers back pressure to slow the vehicle as it descends.

The entry, descent, and landing (EDL) phase began when the spacecraft reached the Martian atmosphere, about 125 kilometers (about 78 miles) above the surface,

Sorry that I am tired so good night....

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#331 2019-07-21 09:59:15

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

I hope you are better rested now Spacenut.  I have been a bid screwed up that way myself.

Yes GW provides a resource of great value(s).

If it is allowed I will continue to build on post #329.

I am going to focus on "Bell" "Cup" landing methods, but there will be more to it than that in the end I am thinking.

A Bell Cup landing is something of a reverse Mass Driver.

Bell Cup landing methods.  We have potential fluids to land into on the Earth, Moon, Mars, and other planets.

For Mars, the winds of time have provided sand dunes.

But I will start with Earth.  If you were to land a bell in a body of water, you could provide a local underwater explosion to further fluidize a mix of water, and expanding gasses.  Obviously not in the ocean or a natural body of water.  A constructed reservoir probably.

For this machine method you might have "Tractor" type thrusters at the apex of the bells "Cone".  They would have to be kept protected during re-entry burn, but doors might pop open for them after the worst of the heating was over.  I suppose they would be used to direct the impact location, and also to help slow the device.  In reality, I think it remains to be seen if such a device would ever be launched from Earth to LEO.  However if you did, you could assist launch by reversing the process, and launching it with a tolerable explosion under the bell.  But then there is a troposphere drag loss because of the presumed contours of a bell shape.  You could conceivably put something like solid rockets on it to assist it to orbit.  But for now, for the most part I wanted to display the notions on Earth with water, to more greatly form a picture(s) in your minds eye, of how it might be done.


There are other versions of this.  You could also forget the Cup Bell launch method, and put a starship in the center of the bell (On dry land).  You could use solids on the outside or more of another type of rocket to assist the device to orbit.  No explosive launch.

You might add chemical launch assistance by firing "Ground Engines" into the bell for a brief time to help catapult the assembly.  You might also have the whole assembly Bell + Starship land with such assistance of a reverse mass driver, but of course the Starship has to be able to endure being in such a heated situation.  That could be hard to build for.

Supposing you did that on Earth, Luna, Mars, other?, when it was time to land, the Starship could be protected during re-entry by the bells methods.  It might not need a heat shield of it's own at all.  But prior to landing, it would need to get out of the bell, and land itself.  Then the bell could do a cup bell explosive assisted landing.  As I have said I am not so sure that this will prove useful for a vehicle to launch and land on Earth.  But things can look better for other locations.

I also want to emphasize that one thing I have an eye on is mass producing these things from airless materials sources, and delivering them to locations to Mars, as a one time trip.  If you read the prior materials you may see that their delivery to Mars might greatly accelerate the development of a significant infrastructure base on Mars.

Blue Origins (Jeff Bezos), wants a lot of activity for the Moon, and in orbit(s) (Earth/Luna + ??).  SpaceX (Elon Musk) is some of that + Mars + ???

Although latency is a bother to the Moon, it can be overcome and coped with, which indicates to me that a mass production method can include people on Earths surface helping to direct automation and robots, and also some people in space itself doing similar, and then of course when necessary, people in mobile equipment and also in space suits.  So, the Earth/Luna system could be set up for that.

Many of the things could be done with Moon dust and also with Mars dust, particularly Mars dune materials.

The Bell Ships could land in fluidized sand dunes, in a manner similar to landing in an exploding pond on Earth.

The method of explosion could be using build infrastructure on the surface of Mars, but really if you ejected a bomb(s) from the bell ship and timed it well, you could provide a fluidization event that could be assistive.

But having the explosion infrastructure under the dune, would then reduce the payload that the bell ship would have to carry.

I don't think at this time that it would be a good idea to have humans on board the bell cup ship during landing.

On failure you would get scrap metal and dead people perhaps.  The scrap metal could be useful for the infrastructure.  In fact it could be that rather than using the bell cup as parts to assemble into structure it might be scrapped for it's materials anyway even with a good landing, as it might be desired to manufacture other shaped and alloyed items.

A fluidization would not only be a fluid dune but a eruption of dune materials and gasses upward in a mix.  This to help create a soft landing event.  As soft as is needed it would be hoped.

I think that this is a lot to digest at this time so I will logout for this session.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-21 10:41:32)


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#332 2019-07-21 11:13:53

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,557

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

The heat is a killer here since all I have at home is a fan to blow air but thank you as I am drinking plenty of fluids so as to not get sick from the heat.

Continuing post# 329 response of the heat capture of the entry to landing for mars and just how much that is.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/resea … hield.html
Related mars Mars Pathfinder Entry Descent and Landing, containing timing plus heating
https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/marsentry.html  table and other values on this page


Pica heat shield as it shows how its assembled from blocks.
Mars-Science-Laboratory-Underside-628x756.jpg

14 feet 9 inches in diameter saucer-like Mars Science Laboratory heatshield

Panerai_TPS_morganfelt_large-628x449.jpg
Fiber materials simular to the cnt's before compression and heating that makes the panels.

Site also has the adept images and such but thats not where you are going with obsorbtion of energy which from start of entry totals 183 seconds until the Heatshield is Release to allow for a lander to do its thing.
So a BFR whch would not shed its heatshield only has that amount of time to obsorb the heat energy and create something that can be saved for later use.

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#333 2019-07-21 12:03:51

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Well, that is interesting.  Yet ice/water have been cited as possible methods to also deal with heat, and I have included them, and also the hope or capturing said nightmare of heat, and using it to landing purposes.  So, yes, tough to do, but give up is a bad plan.  Try harder is better.  Learn from failure is useful as well.

I do not exclude other heat shield methods where they have to be used.

Good information "183 seconds".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-21 12:09:15)


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#334 2019-07-21 12:05:20

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

For fun, I have an add on for post #331.  It is not entirely new.

Firenado.

Not Sharknado, not Tornado.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_whirl

For Earth, and I think not as likely for Mars, I have some faint hopes of having something like a bell ship ride this upwards.  I think by using rocket engines, and under favorable weather conditions, it may be possible to handle such a situation.  The longer the better.  But, of course reality will demonstrate if such a thing can be domesticated to our purposes.  To be clear, the thing would be generated by the venting of hot gasses, possibly from something like a collection of raptor engines from the ground pointing up.  Steam may be included as well.

There would be come control of the funnel to produce from the ground, and the object to be lifted very likely has to have some ability to stay in the updraft by it's own navigation methods.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-21 12:12:05)


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#335 2019-07-21 13:57:06

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,697
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Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Spacenut re post 332:

If you get to feeling weak and sick,  but are still sweating,  you have heat exhaustion,  which is really just blood electrolyte depletion by sweating it out.  Drink water with salt and sugar dissolved in it.  You will feel better in under 15 minutes.  The formula is sugar:salt 4:1 by volume,  as much as will dissolve in a small glass of water.  Follow with some more water. But dope some of it with the sugar-salt thing.

If you stop sweating,  that's the real McCoy heatstroke,  which is really is water depletion so that you can no longer sweat for cooling.  Your core temperature will soar,  you are incapacitated,  and you die within several minutes.  That's 911 stuff. It's actually rare,  except maybe near the southern border trying to cross the desert on foot. If you have to self-treat,  immerse in cold water,  preferably iced.  Drink copious amounts,  and it wouldn't hurt for some of that to be the sugar-salt solution.

Salt in sweet tea works,  so does a bit of salt in your beer. "Native Texican" witch doctory,  that is,  but it works.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#336 2019-07-21 14:00:28

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,557

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Edit: Thank GW just now saw your posting...I am feeling quite a bit better...

I am not sure of how a steam rocket thruster engine would work but the bell shape 1200px-National_Museum-Emile_Bell_-_Gyeongju_3781-06.JPG is alot like the nozzle of a rocket engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine_nozzle
250px-Nozzle_de_Laval_diagram.svg.png

We are talking about this for a SSTO rocket for small mass delivery to orbit..

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#337 2019-07-21 20:09:18

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Spacenut.  Let me wish that your health will continue to improve.  Not much fun having it not so well.  I have my own (So, far) minor issues.

Don't like it so much.

……

Here is an item that can support steam propulsion in space, but of course their use of the word forever is unlikely in my opinion.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=St … ORM=VDQVAP

SSTO is an option that some day Starship may achieve, but it has limited capabilities for it or utility from it at this point.  Certainly it will not use steam as a major component or achieving LEO.

…..

Now perhaps I get just a bit rude?  Not sure what I am doing.  Precision thinkers in my opinion have problems with getting set to just one option.  They don't really know how to deal with a carpet science world.

I used to work in calibration, that was a phase.  I used to go as far as 6,7, (Or truthfully 8 places (Fantasy for the most part)).  So some customers needed it, but one time I was working for a group that was involved with research on carpets.  I got all fussy with accuracy, and the guy said "This is carpet science not rocket science".

So, yeah you can tunnel down right away to try to define something as broad as the scope of what I have been presenting, but then you only know one tree in the forest.  And in a way you are then lost in the woods.

The whole steam thing as presented so far, is about evolving from hiding from aero-burn heat, to using it, if it can possibly be done.  In other words to recapture a bit of the energy that was invested in the motion of the object sent to Mars.

I am having lots of trouble tonight with connections on this site.  Very annoying.  I may not complete now.

But I will try to do a bit more before I sign off.

What I am looking for is a method which in the end can be reasonably crude.  That is if devices can be manufactured in a location of preference, perhaps off Earth, and sent to Mars, a lack of complete accuracy of delivery can be tolerated, and yet the end result as a whole be beneficial.  So, if you drop a set of objects sequentially into sand dunes on Mars, and some of them become scrap metal and others become parts of use delivered to Mars, yet you have in both ways beneficiated the development of infrastructure on Mars.

I think I will call that good enough carpet science for now.  Obviously, a previous version of my post was obliterated by whatever.

We can see what treasures will be delivered in the future here on this thread.  Yikes.

Good Night.


Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-21 21:12:14)


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#338 2019-07-22 12:16:02

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Bells....Bells....Bells.... smile

Having troubles in communications these days.  Might have to leave the correction of "Not Done", not done, if I get blocked too much.

I am realizing that bells may not be everything that is, but they are a whole lot.  Something about their structure I think resonates with the structure of things.

A voice spoke through my eye yesterday, seemed to say "Alcohol is the solution". smile   Well it can be in a solution.  Lots of ways to go with that.

While I previously worked on "Dirt" retro-propulsion and propulsion, I am going to deviate towards a cleaner version of a bell transport process now.

I am now speculating on a bell entry and landing system where an Alcohol is used as the steam, and perhaps an Oxidizer (Solid?) folds the steam process into a combustion process, therefore then using a stored liquid to not only capture some of the energy of re-entry as a higher vibrating gas, but to then use the chemical potential as well.

Starting with this, substance abuse possible, but in a starvation situation calories available from your fuel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

Maybe a mix of water and Ethanol.  Playing games with the phase changes.

If a hybrid rocket system were built, it might burn a mix of water and Alcohol steam against a solid Oxygenator perhaps derived from something like perchlorates.  The preheat would be the aero-burn, where energy was collected.

There are three modes of entry to the atmosphere that I can think of direct from Earth, Ballistic Capture, Mars>Orbit>Mars.

Two of those could take on board an Alcohol mix and a solid Oxidizer, while in Martian orbit.  Not direct however.  It would have to be primed prior to launch I think.

Well, my desire here is to sink the heat as much as is sensible, and else, reject the heat of aero-burn as required and possible.

The interesting part of this is, the more mass you have the more heat you might collect.  Quite contrary to most ways of thinking of space travel.  But it all has to be in a useful balance, efficient to the best practices possible.

As I said, I am not rejecting fluffy sand dune landings but for the moment, thinking that the bell can be landed on a set of upward projecting engines firing.  Precision needed, precision nerds honored.  While extra mass means extra energy, and extra metals delivered to the surface of Mars, there is nothing wrong with using ring of fire engines to assist the bell down to the surface. 

You tell me.  Paranoia?  I clean up my system, log back on, can communicate for a time, and then things get blocked up again.  Again....

I am actually aware that some of my problems are my equipment, have sort of corrected for that.

Anyway, as I am getting tired of this game, I will get to the point as much as I can.

It turns out that bells can be great in ice covered reservoirs.  I read today, another edition of "Speak" on using aerogel to warm Mars.  In that one, they mention a warmed body of water.  I am not even going to bother to fish that up, as I am tired of this game.

Anyway, one problem I have had for some time is how to get something large like a "Bell" though the ice on Mars.  The answer could be that you have just a slightly bigger bell to place above it, you pressurize it just somewhat, to the degree that you may melt the ice, and let it through.  Then heal the ice, and remove the bigger bell.

I am tempted to divide a binary bell into two, but for underwater we could fill the space between the two bells, with something heavy like regolith and make it sink to the bottom even if it is to be filled with air.

Boring company tunnels to connect them.


Talk more of it some later time.  Really, really tired of what seems pointless trouble.
Quiet time now...…………….

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-23 07:54:15)


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#339 2019-07-23 07:57:13

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Alright then here it is:
https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/s … 06106.html
Quote:

Robin Wordsworth is a professor of environmental science and engineering at Harvard University. He said the aerogel could provide a relatively easy solution to help make Mars livable. “Spread across a large enough area, you wouldn’t need any other technology or physics, you would just need a layer of this stuff on the surface, and underneath you would have permanent liquid water,” Wordsworth said.

So, start that mid-latitudes, and claim the poles as well in time.  At least two biologically productive oceans.  And be careful about atmosphere displacements, and ice/water displacements, maximize to a best sculpted planet.  Do what you can about improving the atmosphere.

I do dwell in all space camps.  I'm not just Mars, because I live on Earth, and I believe that not having conflict, but synergy between all the camps is the best way to get as much out of the process as can be possible.

Now a quiet time....Shhh….

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-23 08:02:07)


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#340 2019-07-23 09:20:27

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,264

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

For Void .... re #339 ...

Thanks for this vision of a surface partially covered with aerogel.

It dovetails nicely with discussion in another topic, about reducing sand storms on Mars by covering the surface with tarps.

I had not specifically suggested tarps, but SpaceNut added that element in recalling a time when work was being done on his roof, and tarps were used as temporary cover.

Can you expand upon your vision a bit, and add discussion of machinery capable of creating the aerogel from indigenous materials and using just solar energy to provide the power needed?

In keeping with the idea of tarps, would the aerogel be deployed as mats?

If so, would the mats be kept separate from each other, or would they be stitched together?

Bravo for your contribution here!
(th)

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#341 2019-07-24 11:31:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

(TH),

Thank You.
Quote:

For Void .... re #339 ...
Thanks for this vision of a surface partially covered with aerogel.
It dovetails nicely with discussion in another topic, about reducing sand storms on Mars by covering the surface with tarps.
I had not specifically suggested tarps, but SpaceNut added that element in recalling a time when work was being done on his roof, and tarps were used as temporary cover.
Can you expand upon your vision a bit, and add discussion of machinery capable of creating the aerogel from indigenous materials and using just solar energy to provide the power needed?
In keeping with the idea of tarps, would the aerogel be deployed as mats?
If so, would the mats be kept separate from each other, or would they be stitched together?
Bravo for your contribution here!
(th)

I think in the first place we have to be responsive to discovery.  What becomes the truth on Mars, and when?

As you perhaps know, I am working on something I sort of call the Bells Ship, which I think can change pattern time progressions.  And so that I do not get bumped out on "Off Topic", I think it meshes very well with "BFR" derived technologies.  It potentially is like putting an overcoat on in the winter.  In this case, although you might want to send these things to Mars on their own, still you might use them in concert with a BRF expedition.  More of it later.

Per your questions, I think we need to consider procreational patterns.  Procreation does not only involve inception, but nurturing.  We can look to natures various schemes.  For Mars, I often think I see egg laying reptile methods.  I am more thinking like a bird, which supposedly resembles or descends from dinosaurs.

In my opinion we are actually dealing with Coocoo's these days.  There is a certain propensity to honor males who do not assist in the fostering or young.  A warped society is one that can be exploited by a sexual harvest industry.  Using canned verbal phrases to extract wealth.

But be, that true or false and to what degree, I subscribe to a sort of "All Camps" method for space, which allows me to imagine the parents of Mars to primarily comprise the Earth/Moon system, and perhaps NEO's.  Which means I subscribe to a long nurture method, rather than a reptile egg method, in my vision.  I also see the need to set the verbal method back on it's heels with visual methods.

Ear-mouth vs Hand-eye.  It is a believe a necessary process.  It will occur with or without me.

We are just working through an era of stupid hurts itself in spite of what we might try to do to help.  Stepping away is sometimes stepping away is a necessary option as to not be pulled into the swimming pool with someone incompetent from drowning.

But onto aerogel.  It is, for this purpose a new thing.  To know methods of production "For" Mars is to rush the situation.  I will propose  a bell ship delivery system that might suffice for a certain time period of the nurturing.  But later.

The articles I see for warming sections of Mars seem to avoid an ice layer, which I am a proponent.  So, I suspect a thinner layer than what they propose, since I am inclined to think an ice layer over liquid is a good notion.  It could be a modified Ice with some inclusions of ???

Evaporation has to be kept within the limits of the procurement of "Make-Up" water.

As you would not wisely throw naked newborn babies into snowbanks in hopes of generating a superman, if you were not a total idiot, there will be a nurture period, and beyond that perhaps a logic which says that the aerogel or parts of its makings would be best done off Mars.  That is not yet determined.


There are several "Superman" idiocies.  One is that a certain race is worthy to rule all.  Another is that a proper mixture of races and cultures is worthy.  And then there are others.  It is pretty much bases on stupid lazy math, and not wanting to think things through.

I am in a bad mood already about my communications problems.  Next time when I talk of a somewhat different "Bell Ship", I will not use open communications.  Open communications allows for a better flow of thoughts, but unfortunately my equipment/software/Jerks? makes it very tedious at this time.

Sorry if I did not address all of your materials, but this interference with communications is a very bitter experience to me.  I am guessing it is more my equipment, but I have had enough for the moment.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-24 12:17:54)


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#342 2019-07-24 12:34:42

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,264

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

For Void re #351 ...

First, best wishes for recovery from any equipment issues you may be having.  My equipment is almost ALL more than 10 Earth years old, and I am seeing signs that the 7 year rule has been postponed too long.  The 7 year rule is probably apocryphal, but I have seen it hold enough to beware when an electronic device reaches that age, and especially one that has a moving part or parts, such as a disk drive. 

To your post ... that is a complex post, so I will select only your interesting idea of following Nature's example, and providing for replication of robot aerogel mat making devices.  That is a very old idea in science fiction (of course).  However, if DOES necessarily complicate design of the mat making machinery, which would otherwise be fairly straightforward.

Can you (would you, because of course you can) expand a bit on your vision of self replicating aerogel mat making machines?

(th)

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#343 2019-07-24 13:25:05

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

My apologies, but any ability for us to communicate in a rational manner are lacking.  And I am not sure why.  Perhaps it is me, but if it is, then it is time to go silent.

It is just not worth it.

I may return with something more, but I think no responses to other postings.

Done.


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#344 2019-07-24 16:31:36

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,557

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Sorry void that you are under the weather. Please comeback when you are feeling up to it.
I need to reread the posts on this page plus quite possibly make some new topics for them so as to get answers and details to prove out whether they can be done.

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#345 2019-07-24 17:47:44

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

For Spacenut & (TH),
Yes, I was sub par, and extremely frustrated about several things.  I was not patient enough.
(TH),  I have no robotic method to manufacture aerogel.  I have read of some of the basics of it's manufacture in at least two ways.  I take aerogel as a needed fact, and presume that it can be manufactured.  Earth, Earth/Moon?  Eventually perhaps Mars.  Obvioiusly it will need to be worth it's weight in heat, to work out.
I am also afraid of being called too far off topic, so I am tying BFR(Starship), water reservoirs + aerogel, and the Bell Ship I have been thinking about together, as I do feel that they tie together.  It is all in previous details.  If you need further help in understaing what I am after, you may request such, I will endevor to be a better posting partner.
Quote (TH)

Can you expand upon your vision a bit, and add discussion of machinery capable of creating the aerogel from indigenous materials and using just solar energy to provide the power needed?

  From post #340?
Anyway, I am not so sure that we want to get certain things from indigenous materials.  Not for a long time.  I believe that the Bell Ship in conjunction with a derivative of Starship, may provide sufficient transport capabilities to build infrastructure on Mars with an emphasis on imported materials.  Not water or CO2 of course, and not energy.
As for energy, I intend to use the aerogel covering to warm an ice covered reservoir to provide both energy storage and availability 24/7.  (In time).
I believe that the materials will be found on Mars to make aerogel.  I believe that the materials to make stainless steel will be found on Mars.  But the labor pool of Mars will have far too many tasks to do even if at first stainless steel is brought in as Bell Ships, and aerogel, or at lest its base materials are brought in from the Earth/Moon system.  The Earth/Moon system will have far better industrial resources as per humans who can teleopeate space born production equipment within a reasonable distance where time latency is not impossible to deal with.  Therefore rather than craftmanship on Mars for Stainless Steel, and aerogel, I rather prefer the notion of mass production in orbit of the Earth/Moon system, to both satisfy the stated objectives of Blue Origins, and to greatly accelate the dreams of SpaceX and their camp(s).  And at the same time, generate the means to mine asteroids and protect the Earth from Asteroids.
Another appology, (TH)  It was just general frustration, you unfortunately appeared to be the target.  Please understand I was composing at a very hasty and frustrated rate, as my internet kept dropping out every sentence or so, and I had to restart it each time.
Now I am doing as others previously suggested, composing on a word document, and pasting to a post on Newmars.  I guess it will have to be this way.
I will post something about the so called "Bell Ship" on my next post.  I have some updates and variations.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-24 17:50:46)


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#346 2019-07-24 18:37:35

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

Bell Ship:
See post #338 and posts prior to it if you are interested in past mentions of it.
This idea actually derives from SpaceX notions in part as they are using a type of Stainless Steel for Starship, and are working through how to deal with aero-braking requirements.  They have cited reflective stanless steel, Pica-X, and active cooling with the evaporation of water or Methane where needed to protect from erosion of the Pica-X where it may encounter it's worst abuses in use.
In general I do not expect a Bell Ship to be built on the surface of the Earth and then lifted to LEO.  But never say never is a saying.  I think that I can now imagine how to do that for a cost that is not too outragous.  Not rediculous at least.
But for now lets say we have mass production shipyards per Blue Origin and SpaceX in some location of Earth/Luna.   At first the metals come from Earth as compact metals, and then in orbit they are formed into a Bell Ship.  (And many other things).  When and if it is possible to get quality metals from the Moon and/or astoids, then fine, OK.
One of the qualities of a Bell Ship would be that it would have a very wide footprint in striking the atmosphere of Mars, where it would likey be sent.  It could be considered a desired to make it so big, that you might hope to use Stainless Steel, and try not to use Pica-X anywhere on it.  But that is not some strange hippie fettish to satisfy.  If it needs Pica-X somewhere, then it gets it.
But as I indicated in previous posts, I actually want this thing to be a boiler, or rather a hot fluid heater.  The bell will be itself hollow, except that it will be of two bells joined at the bottom, if you want to think of the typical orientation of a church bell.  In between the two bells will be a fluid to soak heat.  We will want to "Heat Sink", in preference to heat shielding.  But Heat Shield when needed to keep the machine from a burn through.
In the latest version of the Bell Ship I am contemplating a Ethanol/water mix as the fluid.  There are reasons.  I hope to avoid swelling when the mix freezes, as it may not swell on freezing as much as water does.  Also, I consider that such a mix could serve as emergency life support for humans in case of disaster.  It is calories and it is water, both consumable to stave off starvation and dehydration.
While I do cite some notion of freezing as an aid for heat sinking not being too harsh, I also want to see the fluid absorb so much heat that the hot water reservoir might be very pressurized from the desire of the fluids to expand.  I hope say a comfortable bit below the failure point of the SpaceX Stainless.  And yet it needs to not rupture.  So, I really don't have a good grasp on what those constraints are.  But the point is we have some energy to capture and use and I think we can do it, with a version of this machine.
Launch Energy>Travel to Mars>Impact to the atmosphere>Convert some of the inertia of the ships mass and payload to Molecular vibrations in the hot fluid container>
Then retropropulsion partially on expanding steam.
But I have added two chemical reactions as well.
The interesting thing is that they each add inertia to the ship, and that inertia carrys energy which the ship can also capture to hot liquids.  So, it is a very strange relationship.
First, I want to react the Ethanol with Perchlorates in a solid Oxygen Candle type situation, sort of a Hybrid Rocket, where the fuel goes into a Oxygen Candle association to bring on combustion.  This should raise the exhaust velocity.  Interestingly, an Oxygen Candle is also a method of emergency life support.  A emergency supply of Oxygen.
Last I want to I want to react the exhaust of that with a combustable metal, and chase the water steam and perhaps Oxides else into a chemical reaction.  It is tempting to think Magnesium, or Sodium, but they are not as useful as Aluminum.  Aluminum will burn like those two other metals if heated high enough.  In this case, supply more Aluminum than is necessary, give it a good margin.  When the ship lands, the left over Aluminum can be salvaged.
If you look at previous posts you will see where I proposed a "Cup Bell" landing using several ground assistance methods for the landing.
I would like to keep that as an option(s), but consider a nose down landing into a sand dune, or dirt pile.  If done correctly this removes the need for legs.
And the strange thing about this is you may be able to "Ballast" the nose down "Bell Ship" with extra payload, tying them into the interior.
And you have choices.  If you want the Bell Ship as scrap Stainless Steel, then really load it down, and let it get dented up.  Some types of cargo would do OK inside of it.  Else if you want the Bell Ship as an industrial building inside of a aerogel/ice/reservoir, protect it more, load it down less.
While this thing is traveling from Earth/Luna to Mars, it may serve as a radiation shield and emergency resources for a Starship traveling to Mars.  Actually it might even serve as a heat sheild(Soak) for a Starship, harvesting some of the Starships inertial as energy to land itself.
Is anyone actually reading this?  I will answer questions without biting.


Well that posting method worked. 

What does Spacenut think, or does anyone read this stuff?
Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-07-24 18:43:03)


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#347 2019-07-24 19:42:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,557

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

The BFR made with a shell that is all of the things that you have indicated for getting through the atmospher needs to be built and tested to be assured of what we believe to be true.
Things that we know is shiny stainless on the hot side of the ship on entry is bad but having it facing away from the heat makes that location work. Thats material science of temperatures and performance of the product used.
Pica x is good from a few low temperature uses but would it hold up with a coolant vaporizing through it or is it good enough to have the fluid just wick the heat from the pica to make it less abravive with entry. If we wick heat the fluid will expand and that means we will need to have the means to compensate for that expansion and of course the extreme high temperature. Of course stored heat is energy for use in a later moment in time when we would use the heat or to make power from it.

The Ethanol with Perchlorates in a solid Oxygen Candle type situation seems very interesting to do from the standing point of what controls do we need to get the reaction that we want to happen. The Oxygen candles if not for the shipping mass are a make up method for making sure we can get home. I think the reaction of the candle in burning creates quite a bit of heat so maybe they can be used for smelting of some ores.

As for a nose down landing crumple zone comes to mind as the ships wall strength will not take that kind of landing without sever reenforcing of the shell and that eats into the payloads.

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#348 2019-07-24 22:10:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

It is so sad that you only see a few items.  I am trying to break out of circular thinking.

I really do not think that communications on this site are secure, or at least that this is a sincere place.

So disappointing that you could not see the reality of it.

Well at least you got the part of a chemical burn of this and that.

But you completely did not comment on recapturing the inertial energy of the object entering the Martian atmosphere.

And I clearly in previous posts indicated how an abject such as I suggested might have a soft enough landing in a dune fluidized with a air fluidization or a blast fluidization or both and yet you default to failure mode.

And I indicated how such an object even if it crashes could be of great use to people on Mars as scrap metal.

I have to conclude that communications on this site are not secure, or that I am being toyed with, or that you are an enemy agent against the prosperity of the human race as I conceive it.

I cannot participate in such a soul destroying process any longer.

You should be ashamed of yourself in my opinion. 

Just wasting good peoples time, going in circles.

You have not read any of the materials I have presented for the most part.

I am sorry, but either you are a bad player, or this site is nowhere that something of value can be conceived for the human race.  I wish it were taken away.

I am done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#349 2019-07-25 17:47:52

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,557

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

If you are trying to bottle up the mars air once we are not at temperatures of a heatshield as being required you will find that as air is compressed at speed that it will be heated much as a ram jet inlet sees and that means we will need a compressing pump to save the volume of the air coming in for later use for the landing retro cycle. This means a heavy pressure vessel to contain the high air pressure of all of the air we collect.

The dune airated will not stay put for a soft landing as the air is injected and the sand will flow away from where it is since the pressure of the air will be greater than the air of mars which means the sand will move away from where you are injecting the air. Its not like a bowl that is contained such that the lips act as a back pressure as it spreads out through the sand. If the sand is more of a gravel rock filled then all the sand will flow out and you will smash into a wall of stone instead crush the ship. You only need to look at what a dust devil does to the sand let alone the planet wide wind stoms....

The exhaust plume of a retro rocket does not airate its trying to push so as to reduce the crafts speed to as close into zero speed as possible before touch down.

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#350 2019-07-28 19:15:59

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,557

Re: Alternate BFR (Big Falcon Rocket)

To make sand a cushion for a rocket to land hard in means you would cause rapid vibrations and inject air from under it to cause voids to be present softening the impact as I am reminded by earth quakes here on earth doing.

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