Why do we have Poverty in America

louis · 2020-02-23 19:56:33

I think it would be more interesting to ask, given the purpose of this site, can you abolish poverty on Mars?

I would say yes. I think it would be achieved in the following ways:

1. High quality free (state funded) education.

2. High quality accommodation. Not necessarily free but there would be legally enforced minimal standards.

3. High quality free (state funded) health care, including mental health care.

4. A legal right to work.

5. A universal basic income (with qualifying criteria).

6. A legal duty on the individual to support themselves to an agreed standard.

7. State intervention where a person cannot for whatever reason support themselves.

kbd512 · 2020-02-23 20:14:03

Louis,

Who's paying for all of this free stuff?

Why is the regressive solution never to do any work for what you want to get?

What drives this morally bankrupt and fundamentally lazy ideology?

How well has this ever worked anywhere else, if at all?

Is the purpose of life to sit on your duff and live off the largess created by other people, or is it to build something that other people find useful?

When will this entitlement mentality end?

Ever get the sense that utopia won't be found anywhere humans are involved?

louis · 2020-02-23 20:23:05

Who pays for your army? Who pays for you space agency? Who pays for your freeways? Who pays for your National Parks? Who pays for your food stamps? Perhaps you prefer to see corpses on the sidewalk. You tell me...

Labour will be the key shortage on Mars, so there will be no sense in pauperising anyone who can work.

I would agree Mars won't be a utopia. But there is no reason why anyone should be poor there. You seem to assume you could never become poor yourself: that means either (a) you are already v. rich so can provide for your future in all eventualities or (b) you foolishly think you could never succumb to an unexpected disease that would prevent you selling your labour.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
Who's paying for all of this free stuff?
Why is the regressive solution never to do any work for what you want to get?
What drives this morally bankrupt and fundamentally lazy ideology?
How well has this ever worked anywhere else, if at all?
Is the purpose of life to sit on your duff and live off the largess created by other people, or is it to build something that other people find useful?
When will this entitlement mentality end?
Ever get the sense that utopia won't be found anywhere humans are involved?

Last edited by louis (2020-02-23 20:26:03)

kbd512 · 2020-02-23 20:47:16

Louis,

I actually pay taxes, each and every year, and have every year from the time I was 17 until now. There's a tax on everything I buy or sell. Despite your supposition that I think I could never become poor, I assure you that I hold the opposite belief. That's why I'm tired of paying ridiculous amounts of money to subsidize the "lifestyle choices" of people who demonstrably can't manage their own money. These are not the sort of people who should be telling everyone else what to do with their money. People don't simply "become poor" here in America because there are no opportunities to work. They typically have to devote substantial effort and resources to "becoming poor" by making a string of bad personal and financial decisions. Ultimately, they're to blame for their own choices, not everyone else. While you're quite right that I don't wish to see any corpses on our sidewalks, I also can't fix stupid.

Whether they know it or not, these people are outright telling me that they're so utterly incapable of merely subsisting in the land of opportunity that they need someone else's money to continue existing. The greater the supply of these people, the lesser the supply of people like myself who pay to keep them alive. If we run out of people such as myself who pay taxes as a result of the spread of this regressive leftist ideology that prevents them from understanding the limits of self-destructive "lifestyle choices", then what? Does everyone still die?

Is there any set of circumstances under which we can stop demanding payment from everyone else to compensate for their poor financial decision making skills?

SpaceNut · 2020-02-23 20:47:21

The poor that are still working....just to keep a roof over there heads...
On mars all you have is the supplies that came with you and they will soon be exhausted.
So if you become hurt long term unable to work to provide for your own needs then you die.

SpaceNut · 2020-02-24 20:37:53

This is an interesting reuse of what we think of as trash while others think of it as recycleable but there are others that do not want them at all... Couple crochets plastic bags to make mats for homeless
Not to make a profit but to give to those that need it.

One loop and plarn ball at a time, they work together to make mats for the homeless. The plastic serves as a great insulator and barrier to the cold ground. It takes about 100 hours to make one mat.
“Three hours is about my max because after a while your hands start to get sore,” said Adele,
When it’s all said and done—it will be 3 ½ feet wide, 5 feet long and weigh 5 pounds. It takes about 14 plarn balls made of about 50 bags each to make a mat.
The couple has a special place in their hearts for the homeless, being in a similar situation years ago.
The cold is a fear this couple knows well, having lost everything before.
“We were homeless once when our house burned,” Adele said. “It was pretty scary.”
Now, they’re helping others get back on their feet with a warm start. Adele makes beanies and scarves too—a passion that costs nothing for her, but time and gives everything to a stranger. Most of the yarn and bags she uses are donated from the community.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/homelessn … li=BBUPk4T

kbd512 · 2020-02-24 22:07:20

SpaceNut,

I know of very few people who could simply decide to quit working and I count myself amongst those who have no choice but to continue working. If someone can't do any work at all on Mars, then we need to send that person back to Earth. This is similar to what our military does if you become permanently disabled in combat. I certainly hope that on Mars we implement a superbly well-thought-out work safety program that prevents most debilitating accidents since the cost of any accidents, even simple loss of material or equipment, will be obscene.

On that note, the idea that the average Joe will ever live on Mars in our lifetimes is just plain silly. If we can secure tens of thousands of not-too-young and inexperienced recruits with masters of science degrees in engineering disciplines who have lots of uncommon sense and the iron will to persevere through anything, then maybe this fledgling colony has a fighting chance. That said, most of the young people I've met who meet the educational requirements aren't the slightest bit interested in getting their hands dirty, nor do most of them seem particularly physically fit or strong-willed.

Out of necessity, we're likely to be recruiting a lot of 30-something second enlistment military officers and senior enlisted without families who have the smarts and guts to get the job done and basically never give up. We'll offer them some kind of crazy bonus like a quarter to half million dollars to spearhead the construction efforts. If they survive say, a 6 year tour of duty on Mars, then they get their bonus and full retirement. When you're working your rear end off, six years passes in the blink of an eye. I would make the offer to special forces candidates who didn't quit but medically washed out. There would still be an intense exercise regimen associated with the training program, just not one designed to destroy their bodies.

SpaceNut · 2020-02-25 18:40:43

When you leave you have a visa stamped that you are becoming a settler of Mars which means all of the support systems for the earth you are not going to pay into so you will not be getting any aid for getting hurt on another planet and they will most likely not allow you back...let along give you a flight back. When you had the visa stamped you most likely did not pay for a return trip when you saw the opportunity to settle there as it reduced your costs to go.
Those that were going for science would have there visa stamped as returning and would not have there accounts closed as a result of doing work that paid for the trip that they took.

louis · 2020-02-25 19:28:28

I think you are looking at it as a zero sum game, whereas I don't think it is.

Denmark is a very successful society - has a thriving capitalist sector, but also a lot of welfare. Despite its lack of natural resouces it
has a GDP per capita pretty much equivalent to the USA, depending on the measure you use.

It is a hi tech society - very advanced in green energy. It also has a pretty strong commitment to free expression, which I like.
It doesn't have a lot of people dying on the sidewalks (despite the cold!).

I think you are right to stress personal responsibility - but that's kind of the issue: how do you encourage personal responsibility? The quintessential American approach is to let people experience the results of their choices (the lessons of failure). The Danish approach is more I would suggest about educating people to enable them to make the right choices for them personally.

I reckon that Denmark will be closer to the Mars socio-economic model than the USA.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
I actually pay taxes, each and every year, and have every year from the time I was 17 until now. There's a tax on everything I buy or sell. Despite your supposition that I think I could never become poor, I assure you that I hold the opposite belief. That's why I'm tired of paying ridiculous amounts of money to subsidize the "lifestyle choices" of people who demonstrably can't manage their own money. These are not the sort of people who should be telling everyone else what to do with their money. People don't simply "become poor" here in America because there are no opportunities to work. They typically have to devote substantial effort and resources to "becoming poor" by making a string of bad personal and financial decisions. Ultimately, they're to blame for their own choices, not everyone else. While you're quite right that I don't wish to see any corpses on our sidewalks, I also can't fix stupid.
Whether they know it or not, these people are outright telling me that they're so utterly incapable of merely subsisting in the land of opportunity that they need someone else's money to continue existing. The greater the supply of these people, the lesser the supply of people like myself who pay to keep them alive. If we run out of people such as myself who pay taxes as a result of the spread of this regressive leftist ideology that prevents them from understanding the limits of self-destructive "lifestyle choices", then what? Does everyone still die?
Is there any set of circumstances under which we can stop demanding payment from everyone else to compensate for their poor financial decision making skills?

kbd512 · 2020-02-25 21:55:11

Louis,

No, I don't think it's a zero sum game. I want civilized society to flourish, but that can't happen when we have so many subversives teaching our children things that are demonstrably false. In point of fact, I think "the game" that those who now represent our educational institutions are playing is a nihilist anti-human approach to life wherein they try to produce equal outcomes, irrespective of individual decision making, or attempt to remove individual and original thought and decision making altogether. They're brainwashed, evil, or as dumb as the day is long- no matter how many letters they have behind their name, but those are the only plausible explanations for their self-destructive behaviors. What we're now witnessing is precisely what happens when people become more enamored with their sophomoric ideas than results that strengthen rather than weaken civilized society.

If there are never any negative consequences associated with bad decision making, there will never be any impetus to make better decisions. I contend that there is such a thing as bad decision making and that life is not entirely subjective in nature. It's not the responsibility of others to support your lifestyle choices. You're either an adult who has to bear the consequences of your decisions or you're a child who shouldn't possess the privileges of an adult. Our free society provides an environment where you are permitted to make your own choices, but the freedom of choice was intended for your own benefit, not everyone else's. As such, the consequences of your decision making should also rest with you. Whenever you start imposing the consequences of your decision making on others, that's where your freedom of choice ends and someone else's begins.

I reckon that any lapse in judgement on Mars will result in immediate negative consequences that no amount of welfare would be sufficient to prevent. I actually think Mars will be an American model on steroids, especially since the people of Denmark have never sent a single person into space using their own rockets and training programs.

Since the Danish are so technologically advanced, at least according to you, why haven't they simply proven that their people possess the knowledge and skills required to send someone into orbit?

In decades past, most ordinary Americans valued substance over blind adherence to ideology, which is why they demanded practical tests to demonstrate practical working knowledge. That's why we were able to send someone to the moon, not because we were any smarter or richer or better than anyone else. The Soviet Union could've easily accomplished the same feat, yet they failed because there was no belief that a practical demonstration of technical capabilities was required. Once the propaganda value to demonstrate how communism produced greater achievement than capitalism was lost, they just sat on their hands instead of executing the mission. Even if they were a day late, it would've proved that equal technical achievement was possible under communism. Furthermore, we accomplished that feat without threatening to send anyone to a gulag if they failed. Beyond that, it was an object lesson in perseverance despite setbacks. In the end, results do matter.

Regarding the subject of education, do you find the number of references Kierkegaard makes to personal responsibility and contemplation before action, all throughout his works, to be the least bit telling as to what a truly thoughtful and pragmatic person values?

I really don't think he thought anyone should live off of the labor provided by others when they had the means to provide for themselves. If he did, then maybe my copies weren't translated correctly.

kbd512 · 2020-02-25 22:08:24

SpaceNut,

There's a clause in the contracts I have signed with my life insurance company that renders our agreement null and void if I set foot into a war zone. All agreements to provide mutual assistance come with limitations. Without stating it so plainly, you want guaranteed outcomes and there aren't any of those to be had.

SpaceNut · 2020-03-16 18:13:07

The Corona virus is surging and its hitting rich, poor, working, homeless, retired, nursing home bound ect... and while the odds are not good for those over 60 with conditions for survival there is hope if you can stay away long enough of others that you will not get it.
Paid sick leave: Who gets it during the coronavirus outbreak

The plan is to force employers to pay you while you are out even if they do not give you sick time to begin with. So they will fire you instead and not have to deal with it right...Then since you might be on social security that will mean you do not get any help...If you are homeless or without work there will not be any help coming...

worst-case scenario, 6.7 million U.S. workers could be left without any sick pay at all and less than 5 percent of the nation’s nearly 159 million workers would recieve the 2 weeks of pay...Of course there is the plan for 12 weeks of paid family leave for employees affected by the coronavirus who have worked at the company for at least a month. About 35 million people work for small businesses in the United States, and 30.5 million of those workers currently have no paid family leave, according to the Center for American Progress.

If passed this is what might happen:

The House capped paid sick leave at $511 per day and paid family leave at $200 per day. In other words, paid sick leave would fully compensate employees earning up to about $130,000 a year for that two-week period, and paid family leave would fully compensate employees earning up to about $75,000 a year for the three-month period, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a left-leaning think tank.

Of course that plan has not be passed by the senate or signed by the president.

Utah Mitt Romney put forth Cash handouts are gaining support in Congress as best virus fix at $1,000 flat for all adults would seem to be a bit more fair as its more inclusive of the total nation....

.

SpaceNut · 2020-03-18 21:27:43

This is going to take a leap upward in numbers as the infections spread to the Homeless in every state.
California governor says 60,000 homeless in state could get coronavirus in next eight weeks

The sum of those living on the street 108,000 unsheltered Californians.

SpaceNut · 2020-03-20 08:34:14

Gov. Gavin Newsom orders all Californians to stay at home

The mandatory order allows Californians to continue to visit gas stations, pharmacies, grocery stores, farmers markets, food banks, convenience stores, take-out and delivery restaurants, banks and laundromats. People can leave their homes to care for a relative or a friend or seek healthcare services. It exempts workers in 16 federal critical infrastructure sectors, including food and agriculture, healthcare, transportation, energy, financial services, emergency response and others.

This is the other side of the coin when food costs and supplies rise or are of limited supply levels for families. Coronavirus and Poverty: A Mother Skips Meals So Her Children Can Eat

The US is about to create bills that will help the economics of the country but many are wondering The US owes $23.5 trillion – but can still afford a big coronavirus stimulus package

SpaceNut · 2020-03-22 12:32:08

Here is another way to help the public and the homeless in this time of cleaning.. https://www.lovebeyondwalls.org/ He was once homeless, now he is providing sinks, water and soap to help protect those on the streets from the coronavirus

Sold as a portable wash basins for RVs and camping.
These sinks have a foot pump to bring water from a 5-gallon tank to the faucet.
A soap dispenser is built into each station.

BB11wAyx.img?h=169&w=300&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

SpaceNut · 2020-03-26 15:07:26

The economics of the coronavirus are on the shoulders of the poor and those that need to work. How the Coronavirus Outbreak Is Devastating the Livelihood of Hourly Workers as 24/7 stores have reduced hours along with supemarkets curbing these hours from 9pm closing to 6pm as well as opening later in the morning.

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-27 14:31:48

For SpaceNut ...

I decided to put this report in this topic because if is specific to America, and it has a direct connection to the issue of poverty, and specifically, to the practical effect of having enough income to pay taxes and to get a refund:

From Yahoo News Feed:

How will you get a stimulus check?
The money will go directly to the account where you’ve received your tax refund in the last two years. If you haven’t received a refund via direct deposit, the check from the IRS will be sent to your last known address (you should be notified within 15 days by the agency how the money was sent, and they should provide a phone number and point of contact so you can let them know if you don’t receive it). If you’ve moved recently, you should notify the IRS of your change in address sooner rather than later.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-27 15:45:15

The poor minimum wage, part time employees to homeless for a tax return to be filed have a threashold to need to file whether they have paid in any funds or would get a refund most like will not file. form 1040 instructions
page 9 gives a table for whom should file for income and situation of family guidlines.
ex. Single under 65 $12,200 or Single under 65 or older $13,850

Most states minimum wage is about 8 possible hours in a month 160 that makes for the year about $15,360 if they could work all available hours which is why they are poor once that number drops....

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-27 17:29:24

For SpaceNut re topic ...

Taking a larger (and longer) view ...

The global economy (and certainly the US economy) will be different after this episode.

It has been possible for years to operate machinery in a factory (or a mine, or other remote location) from a facility such as the Drone Trailers used by the US Air Force and CIA. The cheap alternative of placing humans at the work site is suddenly looking less likely to be an option.

I saw a report in the past day about Elon Musk being forced to close or throttle a factory out West somewhere. Elon is ** just ** the kind of person who might make the mental leap denied to so many others, of deciding to invest in teleoperation capabilities in order to bring his factory back online.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-30 14:53:37

I reported in politics that some people are getting a hazard pay boost and that its temporary but its those low paying service jobs that are what we are considering essential....

To get better jobs require the ability to move about within a cost cability but can you get Can You Get a Decent Car for $1000 or Less?

Well not around here after the cash for clunkers boosted that vehicle now to a price tag of 4,000 or so for that same quatility of vehicle that one could one get in that 10 - 20 year field of years. Which would need a little TLC to keep it going but now a days when its worth a 1,000 its really junk as its not going to pass inspection....

SpaceNut · 2020-03-31 16:11:17

The pain Americans are feeling now will only intensify during this time, as people’s savings begin to dwindle, as they become more exasperated with the mental toll of the changes to daily life, and as the costs to us all become greater and greater.

I hope all know that the money is coming and that communication to those that you need to pay a bill too is very important to all.
From bartering to begging, struggling Americans confront April rent

Americans are making huge sacrifices. Make sure they’re worth it as those who have been laid off, the servers, bartenders, theater staff, food service workers, and retail staff, who worry about making rent and paying bills.

These sacrifices should not be minimized. Instead, they should be honored — honored by making sure they were truly worth it.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-01 20:46:35

It is sort of funny how much support is coming out now to stop this pandemic from spreading at the streets where the poor and homeless reside.

Currently shelters are find people that have the corona virus and that means its spreading on the streets.

Mobile showers for the homeless were created by a guy who was afraid of people on the streets

What: ShowerUp, a nonprofit providing mobile showers and personal and hygienic care for the homeless community
Annual budget: $185,000
Expected numbers of 2020 showers: 5,000
To donate: ShowerUp.org
To volunteer: The organization is greatly limiting volunteers at this time, but information is available at ShowerUp.org.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-02 09:28:58

Something that should be enacted for all businesses not just service providing essential as its would benefit all of the nation by doing so.
McDonald's is rolling out worker wellness checks and plans to start taking their temperatures amid the coronavirus outbreak

The Families First Coronavirus Response Act requires franchisees with between 50 and 500 workers - which Tovar says makes up a significant percentage of McDonald's franchisees - to offer two weeks of paid leave. Tovar says many franchisees have also adopted their own paid sick leave policies.

How to make your own face mask at home is still not a question but one of the need to reduce risk for infection since we are seeing many assymptomatic people with the virus.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-03 17:53:33

Some that are whining about only getting a $2hr raise while in this essential jobs sector that is alive should remember not everyone is even getting that raise.
'The $2 is insulting': Retail workers fight for more pay amid coronavirus crisis
Maybe you should be greatful that you are getting anything at all...

SpaceNut · 2020-04-04 14:00:38

”When you have a comparison going between money and something else, money almost always wins in our political debate,” which is not the case as life does have a value.
Moderate social distancing yields $8 trillion in economic benefits, study finds

When it comes to fighting the coronavirus, three-quarters of Americans say it is more important to save lives, even if the economy suffers, according to a recent YouGov poll. Converting lives to dollars puts those lives on equal footing and helps “focus the mind,” saved lives are worth $8 trillion to the U.S. economy.

Not the sky is falling for put people out of harms way that its going to destory the economy....

Just When They’re Needed Most, Clinics for the Poor Face Drastic Cutbacks

Providers of health care in the nation’s poorest neighborhoods are used to toiling below the radar, treating chronic diseases and other ravages of poverty in places many Americans never see.
But the spillover effects of the coronavirus, in cutting off routine procedures and checkups that are the day-to-day rhythm of medical economics, are hitting this sector hard too, with layoffs, furloughs and fears that a system of government-supported clinics dating back to the War on Poverty could collapse.

As some lose the jobs due to closures not forloughs and layoffs the healthcare impact is going to increase as a difficult process to pay for the insurance that we will need let alone the offices that need to be paid to stay open is going to increase the strain on the poor.

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