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#401 2019-12-31 09:45:14

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Thank you had stiches out today and it hurt like hell but was said to be healing ok..

Happy New Year and prosperity in return...

Social Security will make up 60% to 80% of most retirees’ income, so maximizing those checks is essential, Social Security checks can start at age 62, but abundant research shows most people are better off delaying. Waiting until 70, when benefits max out, is typically the optimal strategy for single people and the higher wage earner in a couple,

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#402 2020-01-04 19:43:10

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Windiest states in America
https://globalwindatlas.info/

New Hampshire

- Mean wind speed for 10% windiest areas at 328 ft above sea level: 17.7 mph
--- Mean wind power density: 690 W/m^2
- Mean wind speed at 33 ft above sea level: 9.1 mph
--- Mean wind power density: 197 W/m^2

So this seems viable until you think about just how high it needs to be above the land....


Reading another article for social security and it looks like the minimum age to retire may be on the rise again from the age 62 up to 64...

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#403 2020-01-05 12:29:25

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

It is funny how numbers can blur the truth of poverty for 1.3 million New Hampshire men and women. So how many are children?
New Hampshire’s poverty rates are relatively low compared to most other states, but a nagging poverty problem still persists.

The overall poverty rate is 8.7%.
The child poverty rate is 16%.
The senior poverty rate is 9%.
And the extreme poverty rate is 4.1%.

There must be different tables for each of the categories as how do you get children being nearly double that of others?
So there is a missing set of data in those in poverty but have no children that are not seniors single or married?

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#404 2020-01-05 15:13:32

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

found a solar location calculator which can help with getting enough power

https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/index.php

A 4k watt system would be ok with surplus for most of the year but winter it would need to have the angle adjusted to max the system for getting the most output. of course that was with a 20 degree angle but if you change it and recalculate for 40 we see a lower amount in the summer but higher during the winter.

This is a portable for outside use application.
image_23522.jpg

This is a small unit that could be used to charge cell phones and power internal lighting...

If this is not high enough for power and the outside does not have power where we are maybe this might be closer to the size we might need.

63585_zzz_500.jpg

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#405 2020-01-09 08:09:17

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,546

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut ...

The article at the link below could fit well in the education topic(s) of the forum.

I decided to put it here because (I think) education is at the center of a set of solutions to increase prosperity and to reduce poverty.

This article reports on the results of experiments in a major school system to try to improve relationships between students and teachers. As expected, the extra efforts helped to reduce dropouts, but they (apparently) did NOT improve academic performance. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a … te/579391/

(th)

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#406 2020-01-09 18:09:35

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

I would say that if we are not giving a specific educational element to our children then it would be nice to identify what it is.
The second part of that education is that if there are no jobs which can utilize it and no company would pay a person that is smart regardless for having a good education then its not education that is making poverty.
It is what companies and businesses can afford to pay for the job service that one can provide when working.
That leads to the cost of operation and being able to generate income from the business to stay in business.
Business must be able to set aside funds for growth, repair or maintenance and for a means to cover when business is not so good.

Some have said that a paycheck based on cost of living or a subsidized wage given for doing work so that you stay working would be an incentive but many see that as just entitlement or welfare to not work if its to much. Then you have the uneven wage paid for hourly work from state to state that also is there states method to raise you out of poverty but that just means others can just charge you more to live...

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#407 2020-01-10 05:43:12

tahanson43206
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Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut re #406

This is as good a time as any for members of the forum who are interested in shaping education in the present and the future to offer constructive suggestions.

It is quite understandable for an observer to criticize the education systems set up in the various countries, but in my opinion time would be better spent defining what a good education would like like for a young human in 2020, looking toward a lifetime of 80 to 100 years.

it seems to me that elementary and secondary education should NOT be directed toward a specific job.  All those years should be directed toward insuring that the student has the skills and base of knowledge to become a job creator if possible, or a successful job holder if the job creator option does not appear right away.  I do NOT think that the purpose of an education during the early years should be to create a job holder for some job that exists today.

At the same time, an education in any culture (it seems to me) should have a sufficient understanding of history and the values of the culture to become a contributing member of that culture as an adult.  In the case of Western democracies, the needed skills would include the ability to separate fact from fiction, to evaluate candidates for various leadership positions, and to vote intelligently.

After re-reading Post #406 ... I'd like to add an underlying value for any student entering the work force of 2020 and beyond ... the ability to learn throughout life!

The critical element there is the ability to take in new information and to adjust mental maps of the external world as necessary.

This topic is about poverty.

An education is a tool for avoiding poverty.

(th)

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#408 2020-01-10 17:23:51

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

I think the most important thing is good luck to get your first jobs that pay well enough to be able to survive on it. Its when you have neither of which you end up on the bad side of the discusion. This starts with not only where you live but how far off that job is as if its not paying enough regarding the distance from where you live then you are starting out going with a negative and any bumps in the pay will quickly put you on the outs.
Much like the education transportation can make it a bit easier for one to not go negative with regards to income versus expenses but there is no garantee as most areas have little to any non personal vehicles for transportation for the public. Sure one would think that living closer to the place the you work is also not a solutions as population density will cause rents and ownershp to get quickly out of the income to expenses that one would make.
So these still come back to not getting enough pay for survival so that you are not in poverty with regards to the expense needed to live.
I am going to talk to business creation in the other topic as it is different.

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#409 2020-01-11 10:41:53

tahanson43206
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Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut re topic in general

I'd like to introduce for consideration the concept of Public/Collective Profit, and Individual Profit

It has become increasingly clear to me that the two kinds of profit have a variable relationship.

There are times when individual profit leads to collective profit.  There are countless examples, generally around technology development.

There are times when individual profit leads to collective loss.  The most frequently cited example is individual exploitation of "the commons".

A specific example is individual contamination of the atmosphere (the commons) to achieve a personal/individual benefit.

(th)

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#410 2020-01-11 18:30:16

tahanson43206
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Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut re topic ...

The story at the link below would appear to indicate that, at long last, labor shortages may be forcing higher wages:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/taco-bell-10 … 31043.html

(th)

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#411 2020-01-11 18:49:19

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

I think on Mars we have a real chance of abolishing poverty.

Poverty's causes are basically: (a) physical or mental illness, compromising people's ability to earn a living (b) social deviancy (e.g. criminal behaviour) (c) economic unemployment (d) single parent status (e) lack of welfare support from the community either charitable or governmental (f) lack of education (g) malnutrition (h) poor housing (i) drug abuse/addiction and (j) social or racial discrimination.

(a) Most people going to Mars are going to be physically fit and psychologically resilient.

(b) Owing to the selection process social deviancy will be very rare. People who engage in social deviancy will likely return or be returned to Earth.

(c) There will be no unemployment on Mars. There will be a chronic labour shortage.

(d) This will be irrelevant as there will be full child care available through the community. It will be more like an Israeli Kibbutz in that sense. No one will ever be involuntarily unemployed.

(e) I think there will be wide ranging welfare support, which on Mars will principally mean health care and care in old age.

(f) Mars settlers will have a high level of educational attainment and will value education.

(g) There will be an abundance of good quality food available on Mars.

(h) No one will live in sub-standard accommodation on Mars. For one thing, damp or poor heating will be a safety issue that can impact on everyone.

(i) One cannot rule out the possibility of drug/substance abuse. No doubt it will occur but I don't think it will be on an epidemic level.

(j) There will be no discrimination on the basis of ethnicity or race on Mars, I believe. It will be way too important to find the right people to carry out settlement work - that is all that will count.

Of course, one might say: "You are cheating on Mars - you are selecting people who are unlikely to become poor. Moreover you are sending back to Earth anyone who doesn't meet your required standards.  And you are in any case providing them with huge resources on a per capita basis."  To which I would say: yes, all that is true but it doesn't cancel out the fact that we are building a society on Mars with no poverty.

Poverty on Earth is a kind of deposit left by past miseries: slavery, violence, oppression, racism, illness, war, unemployment, involuntary or voluntary lack of education...

Those deposits won't be there on Mars. It is a fresh start.

Last edited by louis (2020-01-11 18:49:57)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#412 2020-01-11 19:25:21

tahanson43206
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Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For Louis re 411

While I liked the vision you've put together in this post, I'm tempted to report that it seems just a wee bit on the Utopian side.

Poverty was close at hand in the Americas before Europeans intruded into occupied lands, but I get the impression it was kept at bay through dint of hard work by almost everyone.  Retirement was not a ** thing ** in those days, in that population.

The English (in particular) brought the seeds of poverty with them, in the form of indentured servitude and slavery, and policies of discrimination.

A parallel to the sort of population that might show up on Mars is the sort of population that is selected and then nurtured to succeed in global submarine forces for sure, and quite possibly surface navies as well, to a lesser extent.

I'm looking forward to seeing alternative points of view which your post should generate.

(th)

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#413 2020-01-11 20:03:10

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Louis wrote:

Poverty's causes are basically:
(a) physical or mental illness, compromising people's ability to earn a living
(b) social deviancy (e.g. criminal behaviour)
(c) economic unemployment
(d) single parent status
(e) lack of welfare support from the community either charitable or governmental
(f) lack of education
(g) malnutrition
(h) poor housing
(i) drug abuse/addiction and
(j) social or racial discrimination.

Poverty for (a) is respectfully a thing which does occurs (b) that does effect or to cause (f) which leads to (c) because (e) is broken for there care and well being which could extend (h) for social and moral response to (b) for some that might lead (i) with (j) ultimately just one not like the obvious (a) - (j) conditions as you are not the same.

Not in the list was old age and retirement of which (a) as you may not be as capable in (c) as we are taking away the very (e) thing that should help which could lead to (h) as you may not be capable of the repair due to old age.

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#414 2020-01-11 20:51:14

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

There's no strict cause-effect distinction, I would agree.  Illness leads to unemployment...unemployment leads to illness. Poverty leads to crime but crime also leads to poverty (in most cases). 

I was kind of including lack of support in old age under (e) but yes, in some societies old age does lead to poverty unless there is family support. In most European countries retired people have pretty generous support from the state.

SpaceNut wrote:
Louis wrote:

Poverty's causes are basically:
(a) physical or mental illness, compromising people's ability to earn a living
(b) social deviancy (e.g. criminal behaviour)
(c) economic unemployment
(d) single parent status
(e) lack of welfare support from the community either charitable or governmental
(f) lack of education
(g) malnutrition
(h) poor housing
(i) drug abuse/addiction and
(j) social or racial discrimination.

Poverty for (a) is respectfully a thing which does occurs (b) that does effect or to cause (f) which leads to (c) because (e) is broken for there care and well being which could extend (h) for social and moral response to (b) for some that might lead (i) with (j) ultimately just one not like the obvious (a) - (j) conditions as you are not the same.

Not in the list was old age and retirement of which (a) as you may not be as capable in (c) as we are taking away the very (e) thing that should help which could lead to (h) as you may not be capable of the repair due to old age.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#415 2020-01-17 18:13:02

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut .... this report is up in your region ....

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/rhod … 41154.html

Any chance your state will want to get into the game?

I recognize Rhode Island is smaller.

Per this site:
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/us … ode-island

there is a 1:6 ratio.

The challenge may be correspondingly greater for New Hampshire.

(th)

Not sure of the states details for cost to get systems for the home or business but it seems that some of this is to help with getting it done.

The information of the second is a bit stail but it still can be a good shot in how the numbers apply.

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#416 2020-01-18 07:05:04

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,546

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut re #415 ...

Would you approve if a politician in your state takes the risk of proposing an all-green economy by some date?

I recognize that as citizens (of any state, province or other geographic entity) we have VERY limited influence on events.  However, at least in YOUR state, you have a chance of participating in the ballot process.

The 1:6 ratio I was talking about is physical land area.  Chances of either state annexing new territory are small.

(th)

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#417 2020-01-21 20:42:10

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Here is a first for This coat design isn't just saving lives. It's launching new careers for homeless people

Employees use heavy-duty materials to make dozens of water-resistant coats each day. In the shadows of Detroit's tallest skyscrapers, dozens of homeless people shiver in the 17-degree cold. Ferocious wind gusts of 15 mph feel like cold knives stabbing the face. Such conditions claim the lives of countless homeless people every winter -- especially those without warm coats.

Now, a nonprofit aimed at solving that problem has accidentally led to one of the most successful homeless employment programs as the country's homeless crisis keeps growing.

"This is so much bigger than anything I could have imagined," said Veronika Scott, the 30-year-old CEO and founder of the Empowerment Plan. The plan hires homeless people and teaches them how to make coats for the destitute suffering on the streets. These are not your typical coats. They transform into storage totes and full-length sleeping bags to protect against frostbite or death. But the most impressive transformation happens behind the scenes, where the coat-making program has helped 100% of its homeless workers afford their own homes within months.

She was sick and living in a car with her kids With laser-sharp focus and dizzying coordination, Pam Warren uses all four limbs to stitch a coat. "I'm doing pockets on panels," she explains, running a piece of rugged black fabric under a sewing machine. She powers the machine with a pedal under her left foot while steering the direction of the stitches with a lever next to her right knee. At age 48, Warren has discovered a hidden talent. "I'm a seamstress, that's my title. And I'm also a pocket expert," she says with a broad grin. "I'm so good with those pockets and so quick with them."

Four years ago, Warren was homeless, living in her car with her two youngest children. She was laid off from her car parts manufacturing job after suffering a severe blood clot, which rendered her unable to work for months. Almost immediately, Warren knew she and her children would also lose their beautiful brick house. "I had no help," she said.

That's because a few years earlier, Warren had decided to leave her husband and raise her children alone. Like many colleagues at the Empowerment Plan, she was a victim of domestic violence. Warren married young, in her 20s, and soon became a housewife and stay-at-home mom. The physical abuse started early and persisted for years, she said, until "I just left one day -- for my kids." "I stayed so long because I didn't think that I could make it without him -- financially, mainly ... especially with the kids," Warren said.

After her job loss in 2015, she and her two youngest children -- then a toddler and a fifth-grader -- lived in her Chrysler Sebring for months, "calling shelters every day" to see if any space had opened up. "For a long time, we went two days where we didn't (shower). We couldn't afford to bathe," she said. "My daughter was going to school, so she missed a lot of schooling because it was embarrassing, sending her to school without clean clothes and taking care of her hygiene." Her daughter was so traumatized by bullying over her lack of hygiene that she missed half the school year. She ended up failing the fifth grade and had to repeat it.

Finally, after four months living in a car, the family moved into a homeless shelter. That's where she learned about the Empowerment Plan, which occasionally hosts job fairs with the shelter. "I wanted a job, (but) it was a sewing job," Warren said, chuckling. "I know nothing about sewing!"

Yet after a series of interviews, she got the job. "My jaws was hurting from smiling so much," she said. Now Warren has her own home, and her children are doing well in school. "I'm also back in school to get my GED," Warren said. She takes great joy in stitching the coats and even more joy "just seeing them on the streets." "Everywhere you go, you'll see people, and you'll tell them, 'Hey! I made that coat!'"
'I don't need a coat! I need a job!'

So a non profit creating jobs that target getting the poor and homeless employed to make a living but for how long will it last for those that get on that right path again?

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#418 2020-01-21 20:54:38

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

The previous article is long but I wanted to capture a good portion of its content for later.
More stories are contained about those that the program has helped.

This company gave help in starting the plan going:
https://www.carhartt.com/
I would think that other coat manufacturers would be willing to aid anyone setting up a nonprofit for the same reason.

This is the business created by a once employee of the non profit
https://creobykeca.bigcartel.com/

This is the non profits website
https://www.empowermentplan.org/

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#419 2020-01-22 21:32:43

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Sort of wondering how this action by Trump Opens Door to Cuts to Medicare and Other Entitlement Programs will help those that already are becoming homeless with the current levels of funds from these programs?
Now for the family which have children and some have tried this My husband paid me $15 an hour to be a stay-at-home mom. Here’s what I learned. Me I would call that a lazy husband if he thinks that is a 24/7 job for the wife... Its one thing to compensate for bills for child care in lew of not paying out a persons complete wage to do day care and to be home for them when they go to school.

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#420 2020-01-24 19:00:02

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

We know that job market of available jobs that pay well is part of the issue for the people which fall into the poor or living in poverty for anywhere.

We know that most service type jobs of stores, restaraunt, ect are low paying. So one would think that construction jobs where a higher level of education is needed would pay better.

Manual labour or manual work is physical work done by people, most especially in contrast to that done by machines, it is work done with any of the muscles and bones of the body but even when some machines are use the person operating them still in most cases still require quite a bit of muscle.

article is 17 page slide format for the 16 Highest Paying Manual Labor Jobs of which in the constructing.

reverse listing
16. Insulation Workers  Average pay: $38,630
15. Glaziers                Average pay: $39,440
14. Masonry Workers     Average pay: $39,640
13. Hazardous Materials Removal Workers   Average pay: $39,690
12. Drywall and Ceiling Tile Installers, and Tapers     Average pay: $40,470
11. Carpenters          Average pay: $42,090
10. Machinists and Tool and Die Makers    Average pay: $42,110
9. Heating, Air Conditioning, and Refrigeration Mechanics and Installers     Average pay: $45,110
8. Sheet Metal Workers     Average pay: $45,750
7. Plumbers, Pipefitters, and Steamfitters    Average pay: $50,620
6. Electricians        Average pay: $51,880
5. Telecommunication Equipment Installers and Repairers       Average pay: $54,570
4. Railroad Workers           Average pay: $55,180
3. Aircraft and Avionics Equipment Mechanics and Technicians     Average pay: $58,390
2. Boilermakers       Average pay: $60,120
1. Rotary Drill Operators, Oil and Gas      Average pay: $60,380

While some will have many precusor jobs of simular trades skills required. Most of these are apprentership style learning on the job training with some higher level course work that are certificate or college levels.

All of these jobs are above the minimum wage and poverty line as drawn for a single person but that does not hold true as the number in the family increase and no other supporting wage is being used to battle the cost of living.

Something else to remember is some of these are seasonal.

One must be able to after taking taxes be able to afford the costs of living, maybe something for wishes to a must and finally your retirement.
The 50/30/20 equation comes in for budgetting. That said when the costs rise above the 50% we are taking from the future and when your income drops to zero or a value less than minimum you end up taking again from the future when not getting any help.

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#421 2020-01-24 21:44:25

tahanson43206
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Posts: 3,546

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut re #420

As a reminder, every one of those jobs is provided by a Job Creator.  It sees likely the job creator makes more than the job holder, but I'll admit that that rule of thumb does not hold for jobs that require advanced degrees or many years of experience or both.

In another topic, there was/is a discussion of the importance of various factors for probability of success in a Mars expedition.

Meanwhile, purely by accident, I just read a long article by a gent who has been participating in Antarctic research expeditions, and will be returning to the continent again soon.  As has been mentioned in this forum more than once, and indeed, quite recently, the Antarctic is a pretty good model for an alternate future for Mars that seems (to me at least) to have a decent probability of coming to pass.

A qualifications questionnaire for someone interested in a tour of duty in Antarctica would be interesting to see.

I expect that in some cases, the salary of a job creator may be less than that of a job holder, if the position is one that required advanced degrees and years of experience. 

***
Here's a tidbit for your ongoing topic here ...

The volunteer agency where I put in a few hours every week provides a variety of opportunities for service workers.  Some of these are folks assigned to do service work by a court.  However, I met a service worker recently who is a member of a distinct category you may find of interest.

This person attends a charter school.  The school work has (I gather) been completed, but before a graduation certificate can be awarded, the student must put in four months of "hard labor" (I'm kidding, but only just) for four solid hours per week day.

I'd never heard of a program like this, so was pleasantly surprised to learn of it.   This is not an apprenticeship, because the work we do is NOT the field the student will be entering.  Instead, as nearly as I can tell, the idea is to put the student in the middle of an active (somewhat high pressure) environment with adults who are engaged in productive activity of some kind.

The student is NOT performing (yet) at a level which I would consider minimal for an employee, but I've noticed that changes are occurring gradually as the days go by.  The staff do not apply a heavy hand, so progress is slower than would be expected in a military setting (for example), but on the other hand, this particular student is showing the gumption to keep coming back day after day, and I count that as something.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-01-24 21:45:15)

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#422 2020-01-24 22:29:31

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

The court ordered service can be cleaning the school evenings for that few hours a week. That sounds like a community service requirement and job like shadowing. Its clear that careful mentoring is going on to bring out the self starting wants and desires in the persons own interest to succeed on the path of life.

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#423 2020-01-24 22:54:33

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Teaching when they are young enough to learn John Hansen and his 10-year-old son Chase search the streets of Salt Lake City every weekend for the perfect person to take to lunch. Their only requirement is that the person is homeless.

They started Project Empathy four years ago, to share a meal with someone, listen to their story and figure out how they can help. John and Chase know they can't solve the homeless problem everywhere. They're just hoping empathy will catch on.

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#424 2020-01-25 15:52:14

tahanson43206
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Posts: 3,546

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

For SpaceNut ....

The Job Creators at NASA have an offer for someone ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nasa-hiring- … 00762.html

The salary is competitive.

(th)

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#425 2020-01-25 17:32:38

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

Wow what a dream job....for Mars Sample Return and will repost this there as well.

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