New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#126 2019-06-01 08:45:45

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,819
Website

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

I reiterate what I said in post 122 above:  there is no radiation shielding for a lethal solar flare event in the Gateway hardware designs.  This is a recipe for killing crews.  If it weren't for Earth's magnetosphere,  we would have killed several ISS crews already.  Gateway looks like ISS and all its predecessors.

Anything capable of shielding a flare event of the magnitude of the 1972 event between two Apollo landings (order of magnitude 10^4 REM accumulated over several hours) will also tend to cut down GCR exposures,  as long as you are careful not to cause secondary shower effects.  Hydrogen and water are the "best",  with practicality-of-design favoring water,  due to its density thinning the necessary layer thickness. 

Hide behind your propellant tanks,  use them as shadow shields.  Hide behind your fresh water supply,  use it as a shadow shield.  Hide behind your wastewater awaiting treatment or disposal:  use it as a shadow shield.  All those things you must have with you anyway,  why not use them to advantage? 

Not to do so is utter stupidity!  Propellant ought to have shielding characteristics at least broadly similar to water.  There is nothing in the planned Gateway hardware even remotely like this.  Only some extra insulation here and there.

The moon orbits the Earth at a higher velocity than the apogee velocity of a transfer ellipse from Earth orbit to the moon.  No one can argue that.  If in lunar orbit (retrograde from the transfer,  as in Apollo),  on one side you can add lunar orbit velocity to the moon's velocity as your startpoint for delta-vees to destinations outside cislunar space.  But at 240,000 miles from Earth,  the velocities are small numbers;  it makes very little difference.  No one can argue that,  either. 

If in lunar orbit,  you are at zero-gee unless you spin the station.  I see no plans to spin Gateway.  It's not even being considered at all,  as best I can tell.  We already know that prolonged exposure to zero-gee is bad for human health.  Why not base on the lunar surface where there is 16% gee?  It may or may not be sufficient for permanent exposure,  but it has to have at least some beneficial effect,  just because it is not zero.

That has to have greater benefit than another measly km/s worth of startpoint speed compared to multiple km/s worth of delta vee requirement. Fundamentally,  what's more important here,  human health or a slightly-smaller/cheaper spacecraft? This is basic ethics,  not science.

Until someone "in charge" starts considering these questions,  my only possible conclusion is that Gateway is just another corporate welfare boondoggle,  instead of a realistic step toward real exploration. I'm sorry,  but no other conclusion is possible,  to my way of thinking.  I take the ethics component of my engineering very,  very seriously.  Apparently,  not all do.

As for the "financial wisdom" of killing crews with stupid program management decisions to save a buck,  look at the by-line underneath my name.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-06-01 08:53:54)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#127 2019-06-04 10:45:33

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,021

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

No dispute with anything you said GW.

I choose this topic to post, because it would be relevant to what I am going to suggest, but by no means is it the only application for it.

Hydrated Minerals, "Clays" in space.
https://www.foxnews.com/science/water-o … ace-miners
Quote(s):

In December, the OSIRIS-REx team announced the detection of hydrated clay minerals on Bennu's surface. The find indicated that water was likely abundant in the interior of Bennu's parent asteroid long ago, the scientists said at the time. (Team members think Bennu is a rubble pile consisting of pieces of that shattered asteroid, which may have been about 62 miles, or 100 kilometers, wide. Bennu may harbor chunks of the impactor as well.)

To be clear: The water we're talking about on present-day Bennu isn't stand-alone and pure; it's locked up in those clays, in the form of hydroxyl groups (one oxygen atom and one hydrogen atom bonded together). But it is likely accessible: Hydroxyl can be baked out of clays, generating water vapor, asteroid-mining advocates say.

My first thoughts were to lug the hydrated clay minerals from such asteroids to the Earth/Moon sub-system, to provide shielding for habitats in orbit of the Earth/Moon sub-system.  Of course that would be resource intensive, otherwise described as very expensive.

Clay from the Earth, fashioned into radiation shielding would also be expensive to bring up.  I am presuming that Hydrated Clay Minerals will be pretty good radiation shielding, due to the mass of it, and the Hydroxyl attached to it.  Perhaps I will be wrong on that.

Anyway, can we make clay on the Moon?  From regolith dust, and water?  Then can the clay be made into solid objects that can be deployed as radiation protection for habitations in the Earth/Moon system?  Can we make them as chevrons, with metalized mirror surfaces?  The intent being to block harsh radiation, and some of the potential impactors?  Of course in this, if these things would get chipped, or shattered by an impactor, we have to have a concern of generating more collision hazards.  Perhaps an embedded mesh of a tensile material can help to hold them together?  But the mesh would have to endure firing to make the clays into brick.

Perhaps glass mesh which might be used in fiberglass could be interior to the clays, to deal with shatter events, or near the surface of the clay.  Perhaps both the glass mesh and brick will play well during manufacture and after?  Don't know.

Chevron pattern shielding is mentioned an illustrated in this link:
http://www.quadibloc.com/science/spaint.htm

……

The two strengths of the Deep Space Gateway are;

-Being politically useful on an international level to attract players such as Canada, and Japan, and it is hoped, more nations/corporate entities.

-A trial run model for an interplanetary spaceship.

…..

I recall, that a mirror with glass over the reflective coating may not reflect U.V..  I seem to remember that.  So, if the chevrons could be coated in transparent glass that might be a plus.  That is, if you are eventually going to go to microgravity sunlight farming.
……

OOPS!  I see my error.  Firing the bricks would likely drive the Hydrogen out.


So, back to the drawing board I guess.  And yet it is my impression that the materials of Bennu include chunks.  So, it would be necessary to find out how to simulate the chunks of Bennu.

Perhaps a small amount of cement from Earth, to create a concrete of clay particles.  Compressed blocks with inclusions of glass mesh, a reflective overlay, and maybe a glass coating over that.

But hopefully not requiring much cement.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-06-04 11:18:20)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#128 2019-06-04 17:27:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Mars does have clay for one of the decade later uses for the deep space habitat but the moon would need to have a much thicker than brick above man to be of any use. There is no reason that clay can not be in between layers of bricks to build up the thickness to what we need with the hydrogen still intact between each brick course.

Online

#129 2019-06-04 18:26:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,021

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Probably down to the Moon and Mars thinking Spacenut.  Thanks for the thoughts.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#130 2019-06-05 11:16:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,021

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Spacenut said:

Mars does have clay for one of the decade later uses for the deep space habitat but the moon would need to have a much thicker than brick above man to be of any use. There is no reason that clay can not be in between layers of bricks to build up the thickness to what we need with the hydrogen still intact between each brick course.

Your restrictions may be correct, depending on the unfolding of future tech, and developing needs.  Keep in mind that I put my dialog onto this topic, because the Gateway is in need of a radiation remediation plan, obviously, and I did not want to propagate yet another topic.

As you have said, eventually clay may come from Mars, but also, if it proves of value for any purpose in space, it may also be appropriated from NEO's, and as I queried earlier, perhaps there is a potential to manufacture clay from Lunar materials, such as dust and water.  Some effort and methods needed.

I did mention chevron radiation shield mirrors, and you perhaps correctly identified them as being of a wrong scale for our bases on the Moon and perhaps even Mars.  However, I will make a case for them on a larger scale for microgravity situations.

I was going to place this under "Chevrons" but we have an identified need for the Gateway.  Really I would also rather suggest doing it in LEO, as the Earth's magnetism also offers some relief from radiation.  So, I have mentioned both micro-gravity situations, so if the Gateway is a no show as many would wish, still what I will present perhaps would have validity in some other micro-gravity situations.

I am from what is the most northern state outside of Alaska.  So, I understand and experienced the polar vortex.  I also did a lot of reading about Greenland when I was young, and the Inuit elsewise, so, I understand layering and graduation as a part of their methods to cope with a hostile situation such as significant cold.

Whenever I see the planning of people who are not aware of layering, it is typical, and should be expected that they will define their structures planed as being a single barrier that does all.

Space however is harsh in many ways.  Addressing radiation, I think that layering is a good way to think, and I think that in the micro-gravity situation, we should want to use it the most, as materials to do shielding are harder to be obtained, or are at a higher cost.

So, I deviate to micro-gravity farming.  Hoping to impose such a facility between human habitations and radiation sources.  At least interposed between human habitations and the sun.  Even that will be a partial fix for radiation coming from other sources.  As it happens the structure for farming and the water within, and the living things will all be shielding.  Keep in mind that this is layering and I don't intent to completely solve the radiation problem with just a micro-gravity greenhouse between humans and the sun.  Other layers are likely wanted and very likely needed.

For now, I want to leave aside vascular plants as micro-gravity crops.  That is not forever however.

I want to investigate farming microbes.  The reasons are that they can be tolerant of extreme conditions, and in the situation that would be imposed on them would potentially have a high rate of adaptation due to a high mutation rate that would occur in the device I am thinking of.  As I recall, the ISS is already experimenting with photo-microbes.  Obviously the benefits beyond radiation reduction for humans could be food and Oxygen, and maybe water purification.  Of course we will have to be careful not to generate parasitic microbes.  This is to protect the "Crops" and humans.  To protect the crops, is a problem.  Generated parasites will have to be addressed in a different manner than to protect humans.  So, anything coming from the farm, and being processed through the human digestive tract will need to be sterile when re-introduced to the farm.  Space is good at offering opportunities to sterilize life as it happens.

I do think I like a modified version of the chevrons, that also includes louvered solar cell panels/mirrors. The intention is to moderate the heat inside the "Container" in which the farm is hosted.  Layering again.  This would also serve to modify power availability.  Photo-microbes will likely tolerate the equivalent of a cloudy day, so if you want more power, you then turn the solar panels for that.  If you don't need the power, then the solar panels turn a mirror face, so that more light gets in to the box.  Some concerns for thermal regulation.

Microbes, especially those modified by induced "Evolution", will likely have strains that can tolerate low air pressures.  Therefore the necessary transparent/translucent envelope needed to hold an air pressure and moisture can be reduced, but does not necessarily have to be, if you have the means and desire to hold a higher air pressure.

Most humans have comfort at sea level air pressure, a few can tolerate less Oxygen, those people having a ancestry having lived at high altitude.

The first level of concern is Hypoxia, I guess.  That is not the same for all humans.

The next level down is the Armstrong limit, which seems to be sort of a limit for vascular plants.

And then for some Microbes I believe you can go quite a bit below the Armstrong limit.  However in doing that you should prefer to provide the microbes with temperatures that avoid freezing and boiling.  They of course will prefer to have constant liquid water available.  However, some will tolerate occasional freezing, and perhaps even drying out.  But those extremes, I think, will reduce productivity.

A transparent/translucent envelope needed.  I propose a tubular helical flat structure, like a flat snail shell, not like a cone type snail shell.

I expect that for a long time such would be manufactured on Earth, and brought up by a most efficient means, perhaps Starship or New Glen, or New Armstrong.  It would be wound up, folded up prior to deployment.  And it will have to endure the environment.  So very likely, with Fluorine in it's composition.  Final U.V. protection could be sprayed on to the outside of the coil after deployment.  That is not to say that the Chevrons could not be treated to deal with U.V.

So, in a water rich situation you might actually totally fill the coil with water.  In a water poor situation, instead, you would have a fill of air at a nominal low air pressure, and some water.  High humidity within desired in either case.

Obviously a complete water fill will offer higher radiation protection, but also greater cost.

So, then what kind of organisms?  Some would form biofilms, some be free floating.  It will very likely be needed to have a harvester robot within the coil which would clean the biofilms appropriately.  It is likely that biofilm organisms will be present if we like it or not.  Probably photo-organisms, fungi, yeast, and viruses.  Viruses, are helpful to cause mutations.  We do want an induced adaptation to the crops.

Still concerns about "Weeds" will exist.  And as I said before, care should be given to not provide a parasite "Loop" for the development of unwelcome parasites.

And perhaps later this could be modified to host pressures higher to allow vascular plants, and maybe even higher to host humans.  But I would start humble, below the Armstrong limit, with microbes.

While I specified a flat coil structure, I guess, if you wanted to get fancier later, you indeed might create a cone, with it's apex pointing to the sun optimally.  Then human habitation inside.  You would still have the "Far Side" to shield, but then your human habitat would be protected from GCR from perhaps more than 50% of the galactic "Sky".

This scheme might be useful for the Gateway, because it is the worst case I can think of other than being closer to the sun.  However, it should be OK for LEO, and in orbit of Mars.  At least in a low Mars orbit, Mars itself protects orbital humans from some radiation.

Of course this could be upgraded with yet another layer of glaze interposed between the transparent/translucent coil.  It's purpose to hold in a very low atmospheric pressure, to catch low rate leaks from the coil.  Hopefully they would not exist.  However using this second glaze would allow the recapture of some of these lost volatile materials such as air and water.  It could also be sprayed with a U.V. protectant, on both sides perhaps.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-06-05 12:16:10)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#131 2019-06-05 16:54:25

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Radiation exposure does vary from earth transiting to the moon versus on it surface and the same holds true for the same transit to mars versus its surface as well.

The radiation showstopper for Mars exploration

We know that dosage level and duration are the factors for radiation which earths magnetic field and atmosphere does protect us from the most sever of it..

An astronaut on a mission to Mars could receive radiation doses up to 700 times higher than on our planet - a major showstopper for the safe exploration of our Solar System.

Cosmic radiation could increase cancer risks during long duration missions. Damage to the human body extends to the brain, heart and the central nervous system and sets the stage for degenerative diseases. A higher percentage of early-onset cataracts have been reported in astronauts

The apollo astronauts suffered from cataracts...

"One day in space is equivalent to the radiation received on Earth for a whole year," explains physicist Marco Durante, who studies cosmic radiation on Earth.

Marco points out that most of the changes in the astronauts' gene expression are believed to be a result of radiation exposure, according to the recent NASA's Twins study. This research showed DNA damage in astronaut Scott Kelly compared to his identical twin and fellow astronaut Mark Kelly, who remained on Earth.

A second source of space radiation comes from unpredictable solar particle events that deliver high doses of radiation in a short period of time, leading to 'radiation sickness' unless protective measures are taken.

The data from the twin experiment only suggested 7% genetic change but its not tell the complete story.

Online

#132 2019-06-06 10:33:19

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,819
Website

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

It is my imperfect understanding that the average radiation dose at ISS or anywhere in LEO is less than 10 times the natural average background down here on Earth (0.3 REM/year),  with the exception of the South Atlantic Anomaly,  which is where the Van Allen Belts dip down to LEO altitude.

They get brief spikes flying through that,  but stay well within the exposure limits set forth for astronauts:  max 50 REM in a year,  max 25 REM in a month,  and an age-gender-variable career limit that is 400 REM or less for lifetime.  Bear in mind that lethal dose 50 (50% so exposed) is said to be around 30-50 REM in a short interval (hours to days,  or less),  and lethal dose 100 (100% of those so exposed) is commonly said to be about 100 REM in a short interval.

The Van Allen Belts got traversed in a time interval around a day during Apollo voyages to and from the moon.  That exposure was within the astronaut limits.  I do not know how hard it pushed those limits.  But it was nowhere remotely close to those lethal doses,  or there would have been a short term astronaut dose limit defined.

Conversely,  traversing the Van Allen Belts on a scale of many days to a few months would very definitely provide a lethal dose,  which is fundamentally why talking about sending men to Mars by ion propulsion from Earth orbit is nonsense.  Not anything to do with the propulsion (except for its micro-acceleration characteristics),  entirely to do with lethal radiation exposure due to the long spiral-out times measured in months.

GCR varies more or less sinusoidally between about 24 REM/year to 60 REM/year with the 11 year long sunspot cycle,  at least in the inner solar system.  It falls mostly within the astronaut exposure rules (excepting peak years),  and is far,  far below the lethal dose exposures for any short interval you want to consider,  such as a day.

Solar flare intensities vary wildly,  even for "direct hits",  and they are indeed very directional.  They vary from a couple of hundred REM over a few hours to tens of thousands of REM over a few hours.  Those "few hours" are the event duration.  Fortunately they are far easier to shield,  being a much lower-energy set of particles,  just a huge flood of them.

Radiation is simply not the killer bugaboo that some claim for deep space travel.  But on the other hand,  those who go will inevitably be exposed to far higher levels than those who stay down here.  GCR isn't the fatal problem,  solar storms are.  You must provide an effective solar storm shelter or you will kill a crew.  It's simple as that,  and just as hard to do as you might suspect.  The solar flare shield is something equivalent to about 20 cm of water.  Spacecraft hulls come nowhere close.

There's gonna be health effects from the enhanced radiation,  somewhere at and above maybe 3 REM/year (10 times the Earthly natural background average,  but just about what mountain folk get). That cannot be avoided until mankind has some sort of Star Trek-like energy shielding technology.  Don't hold your breath for that,  it's still a long way off. 

Yep,  radiation causes cataracts (so does Earthly UV exposure).  Radiation causes cancer (so do a lot of Earthly chemicals).  Radiation causes genetic damage (so do a lot of Earthly chemicals).  You already live in an environmental bath of those bad-acting chemicals,  and the sun puts out UV every single day.  Everybody on Earth is already living with those risks,  some more than others.  Seems kinda pointless to me to be stressing out over that.  Lots of point to studying it and quantifying it,  but pointless to panic.  Because we're already living with it,  and we are not dying in droves from it.

You might bear in mind that people of my age and older were exposed to significant nuclear fallout,  before atmospheric testing was banned in 1963.  The radio and TV carried public health warnings about not eating homemade snow ice cream the winter of 1962-1963,  because of high levels of strontium-90 and cesium 137 in the precipitation. Throat/thyroid cancer was the stated risk:  it concentrates greatly in the thyroid gland.  We weren't warned in earlier years,  but the fallout was there,  all during the 1950's when we were eating homemade snow ice cream.  Most of us of my age are still here.

Just trying to put a little practical perspective on this,  to counter the fear-mongers wildly waving this or that number.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-06-06 15:36:52)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#133 2019-06-07 14:32:12

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,021

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

That is encouraging.  Down the road, I am sure that where affordable we want the luxury model, but for now good enough will do.

One potential add on to the farm I described, would be if you do have the spiral tube contained within a very low pressure hold, with a sun facing transparency, you might extract electrons from the water, within the tube and expel them into the "Hold".  That way, the outside of the tube would have a relative (-) charge and the water within a relative (+) charge.  I would intend this to encourage the water to cling to the inner surface of the tube in a relatively even distribution.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-06-07 14:35:11)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#134 2019-06-15 21:51:54

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

The joke is on us as NASA reminds everyone it still needs another $30 billion for Trump’s Moon mission

I guess thats what we get when we try to fast track what was not being worked on all along while orion and the launcher was being perfected...

Online

#135 2019-06-16 02:43:27

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,898
Website

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

NASA was going to go back to the Moon anyway, but it wasn’t planning on doing it so rapidly. This will likely be a major sticking point when trying to make its case to lawmakers, many of whom see the fast-track Moon mission as a vanity project of the Trump administration.

NASA went from a speech by JFK before Congress in 1961 to landing on the Moon in 8 years. That started from practically nothing. Allen Shepard had flown a suborbital hop in Mercury on a Redstone rocket, nothing else. On December 11, 2017, Trump signed a directive for NASA to return to the Moon. And they can't do that by 2024? It's time to question competence of current NASA administration.

Offline

#136 2019-06-28 19:20:03

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

We know that this could be the right way and or the wrong way to get out of LEO but Nasa Lunar Robotic Mission Heracles Will Scout for Human Landings

The European-Canadian-Japanese mission, scheduled for the mid- to late 2020s, Heracles will use a robotic rover to survey the lunar terrain in preparation for the eventual arrival of astronauts.

Online

#137 2019-07-04 16:10:25

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Next to artificial gravity being absent its the lack of protection that is also troubling.

Radiation damage to the human body extends to the brain, heart and the central nervous system. Space radiation passes through matter and penetrates the human body. Energetic particles impact living tissues, impairing normal function of cells and even killing them. Scientists are encouraged to investigate radiation risks and how to stop them with the right countermeasures.

Space Weather causes years of radiation damage to satellites using electric propulsion

geostationary orbit can result in significant solar cell degradation

The study concludes that after a radiation storm, maximum solar cell output power could be reduced by up to 8% by the time satellites reach their target destination using electric orbit raising. This is equivalent to the level of damage that would be expected after spending around 15 years at geostationary orbit.

During a radiation storm, charged particles released by the Sun become trapped within Earth's magnetic field, forming the Van Allen radiation belts which encircle Earth, and collisions with these charged particles causes damage to the solar cells. This degradation is up to 8% of output power in a worst-case scenario, but even in a quiet environment, the study predicts a 1-3% reduction in output.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1029/2019SW002213

Online

#138 2019-07-31 21:31:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

NASA announces US industry partnerships to advance Moon, Mars technology NASA has selected 13 U.S. companies for 19 partnerships

NASA prepares to land humans on the Moon by 2024 with the Artemis program, commercial companies are developing new technologies, working toward space ventures of their own, and looking to NASA for assistance.

nasa-human-landing-system-lunar-moon-hg.jpg

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/moon-to-mars

NASA announces call for next phase of Commercial Lunar Payload Services

The CLPS contracts are indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity contracts with a combined maximum contract value of $2.6 billion with performance through 2028.

https://www.nasa.gov/clps

NASA commercial lunar payload services update

NASA's Commercial Lunar Payload Services contract was designed for quick access to the Moon with science and technology payloads delivered by commercial partners. Since the project began, NASA has selected nine companies that are eligible to bid on specific task orders based on NASA priorities.

The agency also has announced 12 payloads consisting of science instruments developed around the country at NASA centers. Early this month NASA selected 12 additional instruments being developed by outside organizations that would help the agency return to the Moon and have broader applications to Mars and beyond. Those payloads have not yet been assigned flights.

nasa-earth-moon-mars-2018-chart-hg.jpg

NASA's selections of the two other vendors (Astrobotic and Intuitive Machines) are not impacted by this decision. NASA is still on track to having our first science payloads delivered to the lunar surface in 2021. Astrobiotic has proposed to fly as many as 14 payloads to Lacus Mortis, a large crater on the near side of the Moon, by July 2021. Intuitive Machines has proposed to fly as many as five payloads for NASA to Oceanus Procellarum, a scientifically intriguing dark spot on the Moon, by July 2021.

Online

#139 2019-08-06 19:38:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Its been 50 years and we are going to be in Cislunar blueprint to propel space outreach for the next 50 years
This sucks even with the Space x in the game for cheaper flights off from the earth going any where seems to be on the slow track...

blue-origin-blue-moon-lunar-lander-artwork-001-hg.jpg

Ther big leap and dreams are not going to happen as fast as we would want...

Moon 2069: lunar tourism and deep space launches a century on from Apollo?

Online

#140 2019-08-09 20:04:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

How deep space travel could affect the brain Exposure to chronic, low dose radiation - the conditions present in deep space - causes neural and behavioral impairments in mice.... http://dx.doi.org/10.1523/ENEURO.0094-19.2019

First steps in getting Canada to the Moon  a major reason to conduct analogue missions is to develop and test operational approaches for future missions. Some of the things the CanMoon team is studying is the best approach to selecting samples with a robot and how the use of virtual reality can improve the mission control's ability to visualize planetary surfaces.

Online

#141 2019-08-24 13:16:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Seems that we have another inflateable to make use of that is not a Bigelow product in Inside Sierra Nevada's Inflatable Space Habitat for Astronauts in Lunar Orbit

The little train that say I think I can....

7YwpPL9wd2MENhuUbdXEnP-650-80.jpg

Sierra Nevada Corp.'s Lunar Gateway ground prototype is deployed at NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston on Aug. 21, 2019. The Large Inflatable Fabric Environment, or LIFE, habitat is inflated to its 27-foot (8 meters) expanded diameter.

Now this is what I call a useful inflateable
Kpv8pviJhD7AgikfJtU7x6-650-80.jpg

The Large Inflatable Fabric Environment, or LIFE, habitat can start out compact enough to fit inside an 18-foot (5.4 meters) rocket fairing but then expand to 27 feet in diameter and 27 feet long (8 by 8 m).

The LIFE's pressurized volume is 10,600 cubic feet (300 cubic m), or about one-third the pressurized volume of the International Space Station.

Another use is for a greenhouse and its made differently
W8zwRGDMppQaHbdJkBSbKX-650-80.jpg

The outside of the prototype LIFE habitat is comprised of a urethane pressure bladder, a nylon liner and a woven Vectran fabric restraint layer. Additional insulation layers would be added to a space-bound module for thermal control and micrometeorite protection.

Alot of internal pictures of what could be an excellant choice....

Online

#142 2019-08-25 09:25:03

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,819
Website

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Those same external fabric layers that provide thermal insulation and meteor protection also act as a radiation shield.  They do need to be thick to provide any of those functions. 

THAT is why the hull of the Bigelow B-330 is a meter thick.  At 20% volumetric solidity and a fiber density close to that of water,  that's 20 g/sq.cm radiation shielding.  Polymeric materials are low molecular weight compared to metals,  so the secondary shower effect from GCR is reduced,  as well. 

15-20 g/sq.cm is the min required to be a solar flare shelter,  according to NASA's own radiation website.

The designs proposed for Lunar Gateway do not have this feature at all.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-08-25 09:25:56)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#143 2019-08-25 15:48:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

No Nasa contracts is a change of the past and what we can expect is for nasa to test the products to the point that cost goes to high for them to use once the engineering changes are made...
So far no launch providers or cargo or inflateable companies are will to buy use of anything but what they themselves are making.

Online

#144 2019-08-25 19:26:08

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

http://www.solardaily.com/reports/SolAe … t_999.html

esa-nasa-jaxa-russia-canada-lunar-gateway-concept-diagram-modules-hg.jpg

Solar Power Modules (SPMs) that will supply nearly 70 kilowatts to power the Power and Propulsion Element of NASA's Gateway.

quadruple-junction "Z4J" solar cells, http://www.solaerotech.com/

Online

#145 2019-08-25 21:29:40

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 1,805

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Greetings all. After a strange occurrence a long time ago, I was seemingly locked out due to a password change that was mistakenly made. No. I am not dead, in spite of all rumors and wishful thinking. This LOP-G is still a very bad idea, in spite of much hoopla and propaganda by the usual suspects supporting one and same.

Offline

#146 2019-08-25 21:34:04

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 1,805

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Many thinks to SpaceNut for reaching out via email and getting me back in!

Offline

#147 2019-08-26 07:04:31

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,171

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

For Oldfart1939 ....

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Many thinks to SpaceNut for reaching out via email and getting me back in!

Welcome back!

Is it appropriate to wish you a Happy 80th?

(th)

Offline

#148 2019-08-26 10:40:24

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 1,805

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Thank you. Very pleased to again have access to this forum!!

Offline

#149 2019-08-27 19:46:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

Glad that my emails were enough to achieve the goal.

While there seems to be lots of work going in with the use of alternative launchers for the parts we really need to see them start to invest in there own production chains so as to drive cost down by an increase in launches.

Online

#150 2019-09-24 17:20:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,304

Re: Deep Space Gateway; a bad joke by NASA?

From the link in the other topic that Oldfart1939 posted

The Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway is a lunar-orbit space station, which will serve as a solar-powered communications hub, science laboratory, short-term habitation module, and holding area for rovers and other robots.

The power and propulsion element is a high-power, 50-kilowatt solar electric propulsion spacecraft that is three times more powerful than current capabilities. As a mobile command and service module, the Gateway provides a communications relay for human and robotic expeditions to the lunar surface, starting at the Moon’s South Pole.

This would make a ship though slow for going to mars once we refill the beast...

Online

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB