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#51 2017-10-27 11:36:31

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

One reason that you would expect people of different races to have different life expectancies is that due to our long history of racist policymaking black americans have been disadvantaged in all sorts of ways.  This has effects on the local availability of doctors, income (which unfortunately correlates to a significant degree with race and ethnicity), and insurance status. 

The idea that we have failed because race and class (as well as your parents' incomes) are strong predictors of your own life expectancy, general health, and health insurance status is strongly supported by data and decidedly true.

Edit for clarification: Not all policymaking is racist, but some definitely was and is.


-Josh

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#52 2017-10-27 11:40:38

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,253

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Antius wrote:

Josh, Why would you expect people with significant differences in ethnicity, income and lifestyle to have the same life expectancy?

We should expect significant differences in life expectancy based on ethnicity? Do you prefer your racism subtle, overt or sunny side up?


Another reason for Health Insurance is to remove the scenario where you are literally bleeding out in the street and can't get care because you don't have money to pay for the service. Another reason for health insurance is to improve the overall health and well being of society, acting as a form of herd immunity. Another reason for health insurance is to keep members of society productive, increasing general wealth creation for industry. Another reason for health insurance is that it is a service that everyone will need at some point, and it is a service that must be maintained continually- it cannot start/stop based on ebb and flow of demand.

And Terraformer, I grant that they are opinions in my previous comment, however the point I am making is that they need to be treated as facts. We need general agreement on those points if any sensible health reform is ever to take place in the US.

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#53 2017-10-27 11:41:40

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

JoshNH4H wrote:

One reason that you would expect people of different races to have different life expectancies is that due to our long history of racist policymaking black americans have been disadvantaged in all sorts of ways.  This has effects on the local availability of doctors, income (which unfortunately correlates to a significant degree with race and ethnicity), and insurance status. 

The idea that we have failed because race and class (as well as your parents' incomes) are strong predictors of your own life expectancy, general health, and health insurance status is strongly supported by data and decidedly true.

No I don't think so.  The Jews were historically discriminated against, hated and distrusted.  They needed no help in becoming successful and wealthy people wherever they went.  At the end of the day, we rise and fall on our abilities.

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#54 2017-10-27 11:50:31

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,253

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Subtle. Got it.

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#55 2017-10-27 12:05:32

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Ah yes, the "Racism doesn't exist and/or doesn't matter" argument.

If that's your claim, I'll leave this thread now as there's no point arguing with you.


-Josh

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#56 2017-10-27 12:12:30

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,253

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Well Josh, to be fair, racism doesn't exist or matter if you happen to live on the other side of that equation. Guess we should assume women are just complainers too and haven't been disenfranchised.

Making it the victims fault is always the sign of the lazy intellectual.

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#57 2017-10-27 13:33:22

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

JoshNH4H wrote:

Ah yes, the "Racism doesn't exist and/or doesn't matter" argument.

If that's your claim, I'll leave this thread now as there's no point arguing with you.


Well, that's up to you of course.  I am not saying that racial discrimination / prejudice does not exist.  There will always be mistrust and prejudice between people of different ethnicities.  But if it were the only reason that these people weren't doing well, it is difficult to explain why the Asians and Jews all do well in the US, many of them outperforming their white peers but the blacks are somehow unable to.

Wherever blacks go, they form poor and crime ridden communities.  Racial discrimination by the evil white people is always the default answer they and their Marxist protagonists give, but it just doesn't stack up.  These people never do well anywhere.  At what point do we accept the fact that they are fundamentally different to us?

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#58 2017-10-27 13:53:43

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Antius wrote:

Wherever blacks go, they form poor and crime ridden communities.  Racial discrimination by the evil white people is always the default answer they and their Marxist protagonists give, but it just doesn't stack up.  These people never do well anywhere.  At what point do we accept the fact that they are fundamentally different to us?

Antius wrote:

Racism doesn't exist, and if it does exist it doesn't matter. Let me prove my point by saying something extremely racist.


-Josh

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#59 2017-10-27 14:09:54

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,170
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Well, the Afro-Caribbean community in the UK is the group most responsible for Black and Minority Ethnic people not doing as well as the native population (known in the statistics as "White British") on a lot of measures. Remove them, and the differences are quite minor, and often/usually it's the native British who are lagging behind.

If you think there are no biological differences between humans and groups of humans, then there's no point discussing any issues of racism, because it can't really exist due to race not existing.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#60 2017-10-27 14:22:07

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

There are naturally some biological differences between people of different skin tones, but they're mostly inconsequential things (like skin tone, eye shape, bone structure, etc.).  The twin scourges of colonialism and enslavement have had lasting, negative effects on people in Africa and people whose ancestors were taken from Africa in countries across the world.  Persistent racial and ethnic conflict, racism, and discrimination in many countries has kept existing social divides alive through the centuries.

Race is primarily a social construct, but it's one that has had substantial effects.


-Josh

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#61 2017-10-27 14:33:25

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,170
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

What grounds do you have for believing that the differences are inconsequential? The differences (most likely) didn't just appear, they were selected for by the environment. That's leaving aside cultural differences, which really should not be discounted.

Do health differences between races remain after controlling for socio-economic status? Is it whites doing best, or do some races do better? What about ethnicity level data and cultural (including dietary) factors?

Systematic racism is just one competing hypotheses among many. Does it fit the data any better than the others?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#62 2017-10-27 14:40:28

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,253

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Yeah, this is pretty much how the rationalization of eugenics starts.

More funding should be provided to make people better parents. We would have fewer of these discussions.

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#63 2017-10-27 14:49:26

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,526
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care


-Josh

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#64 2017-10-27 15:15:32

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,170
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Straw is fairly easy to knock down, isn't it.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#65 2017-10-27 18:40:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

The Nature vesus nuture arguement to which even when we look at chimps and other such species can find that given that they are isolate they act a way that is predictable but once the nature is contaiminated that the nuture takes over and engrains that thoughts into the system that is used to pass the knowledge on.
Its the old arguement of why when a cop approaches a colored person that they instinctively begin to flee.....

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#66 2017-10-27 21:27:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Now back to what we are really wanting... Is There a Penalty If I Don't Have Health Insurance?

Everyone is still required to have health insurance that meets the minimum coverage standards set by the Affordable Care Act. That means a plan that includes a comprehensive set of  benefits and covers at least 60 percent of your medical costs.

ouch especially after the premiums and deductibles....

2018, the penalty is $695 for each adult and $347.50 for each child without insurance. The amount is capped at $2,085 per family, or 2.5 percent of your family income, whichever is higher.

With the isurance companies kicking children under family policies off from them as early as 18, 22, and 24 even when there are known disabilities....The different ages are for the different coverages for eyes, ears, teeth ect...

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#67 2017-10-28 20:24:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Trump administration proposes rule to give states flexibility on "essential" health benefits

Affordable Care Act, or Obamacare, insurance providers are required to cover 10 key health benefits --
emergency services,
hospitalization,
mental health services,
prescription drugs,
rehabilitation,
lab services,
preventative care,
pediatric services,
outpatient care and
maternity care.

The Republicans tried to introduced this year legislation that would have potentially given states the flexibility to decide which services insurers have to cover which is where some of the problems are as you were not getting the service for what you were paying for.

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#68 2017-11-05 16:01:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Its now open season to renew or make changes to one's healthcare insurance.
Health care cost spike stuns NH residents
with plans that are averaging about 52 percent higher than last year bought through the Health Exchange (www.healthcare.gov).

The same plan for 2018 from $1,374.90 to $2,115.48 per month and the deductible went up $500, the annual maximum went up $350 along with emergency room visit at $300. The same provider of that plan on the open market with a lower monthly premium will be $1,626, with a $12,700 deductible and out of pocket maximum will be $14,700. That providers last years plan contrasts with the 2017 plan at $1,374 per month, with a $4,000 deductible.

For a lesser premium people are now gambling that they will not need to make use of it. So health coverage is not going to be an easy choice under a pay in system of benefits as the insurance companies are looking for you not to use it in order to build up that huge amount of cash for them.

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#69 2017-11-06 08:56:09

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,862
Website

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Do you guys want me to write a bill for the US Congress? We could bring it to leaders of both parties, of both the House and Senate. Again, the Canadian healthcare system has limits, government healthcare is considered basic minimum. One way rates are kept low is everyone is included, mandatory, whether you're a maid or farm laborer, skilled professional or welfare bum, or CEO of a multi-billion dollar company. This is called a "single payer system". If both parents work, then both parents pay, but either way the entire family is covered. And the employer pays twice what employees pay. How the premium is charged varies from province to province, but in most provinces it's income sensitive. Current Ontario rates, the portion you pay converted to US dollars...

If you earn less than $16,000/year: premium is free
$20,000 to $29,000: premium is $20/month
$31,000 to $38,600: premium $30/month
$39,000 to $58,000: premium $40/month
$58,400 to $161,000: premium $50/month
$161,400 and over: premium $60/month

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-11-06 12:18:59)

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#70 2017-11-20 21:58:39

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

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#71 2018-01-07 18:22:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Trump takes new tack to weaken ObamaCare turning to regulations as their last, best hope of chipping away at ObamaCare in 2018.
So does he want a healthier American's or less.. Now I agree with the repeal of the tax penalty for not getting insurance but if the goal is to insure the people then this should have been the automatic health selection if you did not go out and seek one out.

That rule is expected to lift the Obama administration's restrictions on skimpy, short-term health insurance plans. The changes would allow the plans to last for 12 months and be renewed.

Well it normally is done this way to begin with so if you chose to roll from year to year with the same carrier then whats the difference when you can chose to be selective....

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#72 2018-01-10 21:29:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Trumpcare is raising its head as Man captures video of "patient dumping" outside Baltimore hospital
It's called "patient dumping" and it doesn't just happen in Baltimore.

The man who recorded the video called 911, and says medics ended up taking the patient back to the same hospital. Now a review is underway that could lead to personnel action against the hospital employees involved.

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#73 2018-01-12 21:38:43

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Medicaid, the government insurance program for the poor, elderly and disabled. These states already have the work requirement: Arizona, Arkansas, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Utah and Wisconsin.

How the Medicaid work requirement could backfire

At stake is health care coverage for 74 million people, although the vast majority of the adults who would be subject to the work requirement are already employed.

Work requirements in other government aid programs haven't helped move the needle on employment, researchers have found. The welfare program known as the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families introduced a work requirement in the 1990s, yet the employment increases were "modest" and later declined,

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#74 2018-01-14 18:43:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

ObamaCare consumer protections, like the requirement to cover 10 “essential health benefits,” which include mental health, substance abuse treatment, maternity care and prescription drugs.

America’s Health Insurance Plans, the largest insurance trade group in the country, it is concerned that the changes proposed would lead to higher prices and weaker consumer protections.

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#75 2018-01-17 21:35:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,417

Re: Healthcare for all, not Trump or Obama care

Poll: 83% of Virginians support Medicaid expansion The poll was conducted by Republican-leaning Public Opinion Strategies of Alexandria, and commissioned by the Virginia Hospital and Healthcare Association.

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