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#426 2019-04-04 09:00:32

victoriabam
Member
From: Mississauga, ON
Registered: 2019-04-04
Posts: 1

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Love to hear the story. Being a explorer not always means the expel of diverse nature.

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#427 2019-04-05 21:02:17

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

We will have water that is recycled with the help of life support but over time we will want to be able to switch over to more natural method to save the equipment.

How to Make a DIY Water Filtration System Using Sand or Gravel

https://itacanet.org/eng/water/Section% … _CAWST.pdf

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#428 2019-05-29 21:18:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

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#429 2019-05-30 04:40:02

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,892

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

That's a very interesting development Spacenut.

We already have ways of releasing oxygen but I guess this all comes down to what the energy input is per yield of oxygen. This new approach might potentially be more energy effective in the long run...who knows?

One thing I would recommend for everyone is checking out the weight of an atmosphere. We produce about 40 billion tons of CO2 working flat out, all 7 billion of us!, and that is just a pinprick in terms of atmospheric mass. Any project to create a new, breathable Mars atmosphere will be a truly huge undertaking.  My feeling is that heating up the planet with reflectors (maybe much closer into the Sun, in terms of orbit), may yet prove the most cost effective method in terms of raising pressure. But yes, then you need to work on making it breathable. That may be quite a long term project.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#430 2019-06-03 21:33:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Power from waste water

Between flushing the toilet, bathing, and washing dishes, the average person in the United States generates almost 100 gallons of wastewater each day. And dealing with that water requires a lot of resources. In fact, treating water, including sewage, accounts for 3 to 4% of all the energy used in the United States.

But imagine if that water – even sewage – could itself be used to help generate energy. We're going to take you inside a utility plant in suburban Chicago that's doing just that. It's generating all the power it needs to run … just using the waste that it collects.

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#431 2019-06-29 09:37:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

The key to succeeding on mars will be partly in what we do bring but also from what we use of mars Paragon Space Development Corp awarded NASA contract for ISRU technology for the development and testing of the ISRU-derived water purification and Hydrogen Oxygen Production (IHOP) affordability of future human spaceflight missions by limiting the need to launch supplies, such as oxygen, water, and propellant from Earth.

The IHOP system purifies naturally occurring deposits of water and generates oxygen and hydrogen at commercially competitive scales. Once delivered to the moon, IHOP will provide the water and oxygen needed for a continuous human presence on the moon, and the low cost propellant needed to explore the solar system.

lightweight electrolyzer technology which is the direct product of over 30 years of PEM electrolyzer development with NASA for life support, energy storage and ISRU

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#432 2019-06-29 11:50:33

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,974

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

SpaceNut,

Paragon SDC has been leading the charge for better life support technology for space applications and I've posted about the research work they're doing for NASA a number of times in various topics.  They're the ones who have come up with some of the most highly efficient, lightweight, low-power-consumption technologies for air and water recycling for NASA and others.  They were always an obvious choice to develop life-support-related ISRU technology for Mars.  Giner Inc, the company developing the electrolyzer, does work for the Navy, as well as other branches of our military.

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#433 2019-09-11 18:56:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Priority list:
Oxygen generation systems
water generation
Food greenhouse
waste removal and recovery or recycling ( feed stock for oxygen and water)
power (progressive use of kilowatt reactors and solar array farms)
new shelters and structures to be built by priority

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#434 2019-10-16 20:46:55

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file … elease.pdf

“Typical” U.S. family of four:
100 gallons/person/day (379 kg/person/day)

This is both indoor and outdoor usage; 70% indoor and 30% outdoor

Source: U.S. EPA; https://www3.epa.gov/watersense/pubs/indoor.html
• “Typical” U.K. family of four:
30 gallons/person/day (112 kg/person/day)
– Source: http://www.ccwater.org.uk/savewaterandm … gewateruse

Summit Station, Greenland (winter): ~18 gallons/person/day (68 kg/person/day)

Based on an average population of four people

Source: Haehnel and Knuth “Potable water supply feasibility study for Summit Station, Greenland”

Summit Station, Greenland (summer): ~9.4 gallons/person/day (36 kg/person/day)

Based on an average population of 30 people

Source: Haehnel and Knuth “Potable water supply feasibility study for Summit Station, Greenland”

Mars Surface Crew (with laundry): ~3.5 gallons/person/day (13.3 kg/person/day)
– Based on a population of four crew

Mars Surface Crew (without laundry): ~1.6 gallons/person/day (6.0 kg/person/day)
– Based on a population of four crew

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#435 2019-10-22 20:59:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Life Support: Air, Water, and Nutrition

Sample Menu

Some menus from past Russian and US missions:


             
            Typical daily menu of a Soyez cosmonaut

            Breakfast: Canned meatloaf, bread, chocolate sweets with nut praline, coffee with milk, prune juice
            Lunch: Canned beef tongue, bread, prunes with nuts
            Dinner: Caspian roach, bortsch, canned veal, rich pastry, black currant juice
            Supper: Cream cheese with black currant puree, candied fruit, black currant juice

             

            Now, for contrast...
            The typical menu of an Apollo astronaut:

            Breakfast: Apple sauce, sugar frosted flakes, bacon squares, cinnamon toast, cocoa, orange drink
            Lunch: Beef with vegetables, spaghetti with meat, cheese sandwhich, apricot puding, gingerbread
            Dinner: Pea soup, tuna salad, cinnamon toast, fruit-cake, pineapple-grapefruit drink.

Learning how to shift our diet is just as important as learning to grow these same foods on the cycle to be able to have these same meals....

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#436 2020-01-12 20:08:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file … 6-ADD2.pdf
Mars Design Reference Architecture 5.0 – Addendum #2


pg 430  has tables for what a crew will need.

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#437 2020-08-20 18:41:13

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

mixed topic that includes discusion on habitats which are crew size limited with supply resources possible with current day rocket payloads.

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#438 2020-08-24 12:47:48

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

The term shelter for the most part so far has been discussed as a place for man as a habitat but what about a garage to work in since working in a space suits on a rover or other items will be a non starter as the suits could get torn and then you are in real trouble.

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#439 2020-10-07 08:18:42

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 4,627

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

The article at the link below reports on research in the United States on ways of growing rice that consume less water.

Google search: Growing rice and healing the soil

One of several links: https://voiceoflouisianaagriculture.org … outhern-us

The article does not describe the new method precisely, but it does provide hints for where details might be found.

The less water needed for a crop, the better (on Mars).

Edit#1: Wikipedia has an article on the subject ... the text is on the skeptical side

The essence of the method appears to be to keep soil moist rather than flooded, to plant the seedlings before they are two weeks old and when they show two leaves, and to space them some distance apart so they grow extensive root systems and leaf canopy.

The preferred method for planting appears to be hand planting due to the need to treat the plants gently so they survive transplanting.

For Mars, advances in robotics should permit their use with success.  Hand planting of rice seedlings would qualify as menial labor anywhere, and it would be an unaffordable luxury on Mars. The exception is (to my way of thinking at least) if the planting is carried out as relaxation from stressful mental activity.

(th)

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#440 2020-12-15 20:37:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

So far we have been discussing what are the primary systems for life on mars and even with a backup of the same type we might just want to throw in another option of a second alternative to each of the things we need to provide for a crew to survive in a sustainable manner due to the uncertainties and due to the life expectancy of the equipment that we might use.


ex getting water
primary capture water excess from recycling
secondary capture water from methane production that is excess
third as in muddy surface melts collection to gather water from in greater amounts then to dig and process unknown levels which are trapped layers

Ex of fuel
primary is the Sabatier reactor using a variety of creation technology and catalysts
secondary is the methane wif's are to be found to have any reserves under ground is to drill and tap them for mans use.
third make use of hydrogen directly from electrolysis if Sabatier reactor fails
                             
Ex to get oxygen
Primary would be electrolysis if we have a water source but what if the level of water can not be there for the throughput
secondary then we would need moxie or some other source to get the oxygen from....
third would be greenhouse out gasses of growing plants with selection geared towards those that provide an excess not food related

ex to get food
primary would be a green house above ground and below which include all the varieties of how we might grow it
for what would make sense in as the secondary to do is to grow food within the internal to the ship you arrive
Secondary are to use the leftovers to make methane
third with regards to the food type such as beets for sugar, corn for corn oil, Peanuts for peanut oil, olives for olive oil the list goes on....

ex shelter
primary is the ship you came in but we will want to stretch our legs as in getting out of the ship
secondary build from cargo ships a structure above ground with regolith covering to lessen radiation exposure
third would be underground boring, trenching and other techniques to make use of insitu materials to create the structure.

The thought is to come up with as many means to accomplish the same task....

Each choice we make gives a different level of energy required to achieve for the options if a primary does not work out or does not function after a period of time with a secondary most likely needing more energy to achive the goals of each item we need to survive with.

The most important item not in the title is power...

ex of energy
primary is nuclear in some form though getting it will be political and not in favor of the solar first plans
secondary is the solar battery storage systems
third is a mixed storage system of compressed gasses,
fourth would be internal combustion engine generators using excess methane or hydrogen plus oxygen production, this is related to the IVF engine that uses boiloff to maintain tank pressure and to lesson boiloff rates.
fifth is wind from natural and man made systems to be saved in batteries or other storage system


Last topic area is recycling
Reuse of plastics that are sent with supplies can be brought back to what I think is gasoline as its burnable once processed.
food waste plus all growth that is not edible for composting and more can be used for fuel as well

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#441 2020-12-16 00:22:17

Tmcom
Member
Registered: 2017-03-02
Posts: 805

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

Or you could go down to the nearest creek?

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#442 2020-12-16 10:16:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

So far Tmcom, we have seen the mirages of streams but we did see muddy areas where its ice melted under the suns influences as seen by rover tracks in sandy areas that it went through.

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#443 2020-12-16 16:59:38

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,974

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

SpaceNut,

Has anybody thought about the possibility of using geothermal power if they don't like nuclear?

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#444 2020-12-16 17:31:03

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,830

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

well Insight with its mole was to answer to mars internal heat possibility but until we send a real drill to mars we seem to be stuck in a rote.
If there is volcanic heat down inside mars I sure would call it a win....

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#445 2020-12-17 04:52:13

Tmcom
Member
Registered: 2017-03-02
Posts: 805

Re: Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

SpaceNut wrote:

So far Tmcom, we have seen the mirages of streams but we did see muddy areas where its ice melted under the suns influences as seen by rover tracks in sandy areas that it went through.

Mirages maybe, but rain on Mars is a given,(no other explanation for water droplets on the rover).

SpaceNut wrote:

well Insight with its mole was to answer to mars internal heat possibility but until we send a real drill to mars we seem to be stuck in a rote.
If there is volcanic heat down inside mars I sure would call it a win....

There is, or recently volcanic activity was found by satellite.

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