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#351 2018-08-29 17:07:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,118

Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/new … e-science/

https://newatlas.com/carbon-dioxide-atm … ion/51416/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … n-in-food/

Wheat, rice, barley and certain legumes like soybeans are classified as C3 plants, which corresponds to their ability as plants to convert carbon dioxide into energy. These C3 grasses and legumes have been shown to lose up to 15 percent of zinc and iron, the top two minerals in the human body, in experiments that artificially enhanced the concentration of carbon dioxide. These elements are crucial for a healthy immune system, cell development, hemoglobin production and brain function.

The C4 plant growth is different it seems....

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#352 2018-08-29 21:38:46

kbd512
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Why do we increase CO2 levels in greenhouses?

What does the word "Enriched" mean on the bags of rice or flour and boxes of cereals sold in the supermarkets?

Good grief.

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#353 2018-08-30 17:09:00

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

To displace the increasing oxygen percentage that is transpired by the plants which is building up in the greenhouse enclosed structure.
The open air increase of co2 can not be equalized by opening something as is the case for a greenhouse.
This is a problem of monitoring on mars for a greenhouse and for a habitat that uses a greenhouse as a major component of food / life support. Eating fresh food is better for mars as the equipment and supplies for enriching will be all that much more mass to send.

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#354 2018-09-02 20:46:37

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

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#355 2018-09-02 21:44:57

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

C3 vs C4 plants:

The first chemical that plants use to fix CO2 is Ribulose 1,5-bisphosphate (RuBP). An enzyme binds one molecule of CO2 to it, the enzyme is called ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase oxygenase (RuBisCO). If the ratio of O2 to CO2 is too high, it will bind O2 instead. This creates a waste product, RuBP with O2 has to be converted back into RuBP. That takes energy. It appears plants have evolved for an atmosphere with much more CO2. This is the first step of what high school called the dark reaction of photosynthesis. The university name for the same thing is the Calvin-Benson cycle because it was discovered by Mr. Calvin and Mr. Benson. The light reaction of photosynthesis is known by the university name "Photophosphorylation". That is highly optimized, extremely energy efficient. However, the Calvin-Benson cycle appears to be a mess, only efficient in an atmosphere with MUCH more CO2.

Some plants have evolved a way to concentrate CO2 in their tissues. Concentrating CO2 means O2 binding will occur much less. It takes energy to concentrate CO2, but less than recycling RuBP. Plants that do this create a large molecule with 4 carbon atoms, then that is broken down into CO2 near chloroplasts. Because the molecule that does his has 4 carbons, these plants are called C4 plants. RuBP has 3 carbon atoms, so plants that don't make C4 are called C3 plants. RuBP is actually used by both groups of plants, but they needed a name.

C4 plants can fix carbon with less energy in today's atmosphere, consequently they grow faster. These tend to be weeds, so weeds out-compete food crops. There are some exceptions; corn is a C4 plant, which is why it grows so well. However, in a greenhouse with elevated CO2, C3 plants will grow faster because they don't have to waste energy concentrating CO2. This both means food crops grow faster, and dramatically reduces weeds.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-09-02 21:53:50)

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#356 2018-09-14 17:57:49

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Well its put up or shut up and its California’s ‘own damn satellite’ will be launched to track climate pollutants, Jerry Brown says

He suggested two years ago that California might “launch its own damn satellite” in defiance of federal climate change policies.

California’s goal is to launch the satellite by 2021, with data available beginning in 2022.

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#357 2018-09-16 20:12:07

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Adapt or die: Can evolution outrun climate change?

Across the planet, animal and plant species are on the run. A rapidly changing climate is shifting when and where plants blossom, and forcing creatures big and small to migrate and learn new tactics for survival.

It's a trend that's likely to accelerate as scientists expect to see more extreme weather events -- intensifying storms and droughts, and greater temperature fluctuations on land and sea. To understand the impact, researchers are flocking to a unique, living lab: the Galápagos Islands.

The Galápagos, a remote, rocky archipelago 500 miles off the coast of Ecuador in the Pacific Ocean, are home to animals that don't exist anywhere else in the world -- animals so unique that they inspired Charles Darwin to formulate the theory of evolution after his famous voyage aboard the H.M.S. Beagle in the 1830s.

"It's a major new perspective in evolutionary biology and ecology, because it's forcing ecologists like me to think about adaptation and natural selection on the period of ten years or so," he said.

Witman's team is focused on understanding the impact underwater, diving to inspect the health of coral reefs and see how changes in water temperature may be shaping changes in marine species.

These warming and cooling cycles test the resilience of species to withstand opposite extremes.

Coral will bleach and eventually die if the water becomes too warm or too cold. And since 90 percent of marine species -- from algae all the way up the food chain -- rely on the habitat of coral reefs, the consequences are far-reaching

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#358 2018-09-21 16:42:48

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

The satelite would give some more data to whether long lasting fires have an effect on warming and other issues that we can face.
Southern California smog

la-1537424059-l2lcyhwxnz-snap-image

I do not know if 87 days of smog is a record but Southern California just saw its longest streak of bad air in decades The streak in ozone pollution began on June 19 and didn’t relent until Sept. 14. when air pollution dipped to “moderate” levels within federal limits for ozone, the lung-damaging gas in smog that triggers asthma and other respiratory illnesses.

Southern Californians might remember the summer of 2018 for its sweltering heat waves, record ocean temperatures and destructive wildfires. But it also claimed another distinction: the summer we went nearly three months without a day of clean air.

2000

The health of the people that live in this area must be quite effected by the smog....

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#359 2018-09-23 15:28:09

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

It has been known for sometime that carbon based fuels would lead to a continual rise in temperature.
Shell and Exxon's secret 1980s climate change warnings

Newly found documents from the 1980s show that fossil fuel companies privately predicted the global damage that would be caused by their products.

Greed vs humanity....

4642.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=a9a50f58afacbcb1da5f1aabae5b569c

Shell’s assessment foresaw a one-meter sea-level rise, and noted that warming could also fuel disintegration of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, resulting in a worldwide rise in sea level of “five to six meters.”

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#360 2018-09-25 18:56:38

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Big Oil warns of backlash as it makes vow on climate change

The world’s biggest oil and gas companies made an unprecedented vow to cut their contributions to global warming, even as they warned of a potential backlash from pushing change too quickly.

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#361 2018-09-28 21:11:52

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Trump administration predicts a 7-degree global temperature rise. Its policies assume planet’s fate is sealed.
atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide would rise from 410 parts per million to 789 ppm by 2100.

The document projects that global temperature will rise by nearly 3.5 degrees Celsius above the average temperature between 1986 and 2005 regardless of whether Obama-era tailpipe standards take effect or are frozen for six years, as the Trump administration has proposed. The global average temperature rose more than 0.5 degrees Celsius between 1880, the start of industrialization, and 1986, so the analysis assumes a roughly 4 degree Celsius or 7 degree Fahrenheit increase from preindustrial levels.

6 Unexpected Effects of Climate Change
https://www.livescience.com/38666-clima … fects.html

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#362 2018-10-13 22:29:00

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Climate change provided high octane fuel for Hurricane Michael

Water temperatures in the far northern Gulf of Mexico were 3 to 5 degrees Fahrenheit higher than normal for this time of year. All other things being equal, a storm hovering above 85-degree water will become much stronger than a storm hovering above 80-degree water.

To climate scientists, the link between warming waters -- and a warming planet -- and greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide is as clear as day. Carbon dioxide acts like a blanket, and as more of it is produced by humans through the burning of fossil fuels, the blanket gets thicker. Since 1850, carbon dioxide concentrations have increased 30 percent.

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#363 2018-10-14 09:10:10

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Post-Glacial_Sea_Level.png

Did CO2 levels drive the last rise in sea level? The rise paused 8000 years ago. How do we know this pause would have been permanent in the absence of human intervention?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#364 2018-10-14 13:32:03

kbd512
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

SpaceNut,

In the interest of appearing slightly less ignorant than the average talking head in the media, let's post the actual reports.  Here's a link to the actual report referenced in the media article about the predicted 7 degree temperature rise:

The Safer Affordable Fuel-Efficient (SAFE) Vehicles Rule for Model Year 2021–2026 Passenger Cars and Light Trucks - Draft Environmental Impact Statement

That draft report published by National Highway and Safety Administration (NHTSA), is another rehash of all the BS "projected" by the IPCC.  NHTSA is NOT President Trump's administration.  NHTSA is an agency of the US federal government primarily concerned with regulation of transportation.  Unless we're to believe that President Trump micro-manages the DRAFT publications posted by our federal agency that regulates vehicle crash-worthiness and seat belts, let's give credit where credit is due.  NHTSA doesn't know a thing about climate change, so they re-hashed the IPCC projections as justification for more government regulation.

Regarding the high-octane BS about Hurricane Michael:

I guess I should thank you for providing yet another example of how science illiteracy is helping unscrupulous people masquerading as journalists "make", rather than "report", the "news".  Our climate changers certainly emit plenty of high-octane BS for consumption by people who are less skeptical and informed than they should be.  A higher octane fuel has lower energy content than lower octane fuel because there are more nasty little additives blended into it to retard ignition and less actual fuel.

Once again, the principle assertions were made by a bunch of people playing with their computer models.  I can make computer models show anything I want them to show.  That doesn't mean the models are an accurate depiction of the real world, but it's a great way to try to influence other people who don't understand what I'm showing them, beyond the visual presented.  Absolutely zero information regarding what went into the computer models was requested by the media.  The media combined their profound scientific illiteracy with their profound intellectual laziness to create another conjecture article lacking basic scientific evidence of anything.

From the Scripps Institution of Oceanography:

Voyager: How Long until Ocean Temperature Goes up a Few More Degrees?

Paraphrasing from the article, just in case someone is too lazy to read:

The oceans contain so much water that significant temperature changes occur over centuries to millennia.  The ocean temperature has been rising since about 1910 at a rate of .1C/decade near the surface.  At a depth of 1,000m, it's warming at a rate of .01C/decade.  At decadal time scales, surface temperatures fluctuate by about .2C as a result of El Nino and La Nina.  At that rate, the surface ocean temperature will be several degrees higher than it is today in another few centuries.

For people who still haven't put two and two together, that means the thermal inertia driving temperature increases happening right now began centuries before cars and coal fired power plants existed.

According to actual meteorologists, hurricanes require warm water (typically above 27C), rapidly cooling air as elevation above the surface of the ocean increases (but since we're busy "climate changing", substantially colder air is supposed to be impossible because our lower atmosphere is supposedly heating up), and the Coriolis effect to drive them (meaning rotational force gets stronger as you move away from the equator).  If we take our own climate changers' assertions of global warming at face value, then their assertions are demonstrably false and hurricanes should be getting weaker.

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#365 2018-10-26 19:04:33

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Its not just happening here but it would seem it can happen anywhere.
UK fracking firm Cuadrilla pauses drilling after tremor

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#366 2018-10-26 20:19:44

kbd512
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

SpaceNut,

We don't have a feasible near-term replacement for fossil fuels, apart from nuclear fuels, which the climate change believers hate worse than fossil fuels for reasons only they would understand, and THAT is why we're still using them.  Come up with a 2.5kWh/kg battery that's not made from unobtanium and we can revisit this conversation about why we're still using fossil fuels.  You'll have my unreserved support when that day comes.  Promise.

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#367 2018-10-26 21:11:42

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

ragone_chart_energy_vs_power_density.jpg?pfdrid_c=true

Faradion-sodium-ion-battery-energy-density.png

sugar-battery-EnergyDensity.png

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#368 2018-10-27 04:07:33

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,017
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

kbd512 wrote:

SpaceNut,

We don't have a feasible near-term replacement for fossil fuels, apart from nuclear fuels, which the climate change believers hate worse than fossil fuels for reasons only they would understand, and THAT is why we're still using them.  Come up with a 2.5kWh/kg battery that's not made from unobtanium and we can revisit this conversation about why we're still using fossil fuels.  You'll have my unreserved support when that day comes.  Promise.

I wouldn't class nuclear as a feasible *near-term* replacement. A mid term one, sure. But I think it would take a few decades to get to the point where we could generate all our power from nuclear reactors (for starters, how long does they take to build?), and that would require developing more fuel efficient designs (I think the fusion-fission hybrid reactor should be looked at more).

As for batteries, it's not the energy density that matters, it's the lifetime cost per kWh. We don't need a 2.5 kWh/kg battery for home storage, or for running most industry, or for powering a railway network...


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#369 2018-10-27 13:37:19

kbd512
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Terraformer,

People who say they believe in climate change can either admit that solar panels require coal or gas turbine power plants for backup, which is not helping the problem, or not.  I don't care which it is.  The fact of the matter is that small modular reactors don't require years of construction time and can be transported via trucks to their operating sites.  Molten salt technology works with both solid U235 pellets and Th232 / U233 particulates.  It's time to set up a factory that makes porta-nukes to use as backup power supplies for thin film solar panels, which are also portable via truck.  If battery tech advances to a point that it achieves 2.5kWh/kg (a functional equivalent for a liquid hydrocarbon fuel when efficiency is considered), then great.  We'll stop manufacturing porta-nukes and start manufacturing porta-cells for backup power.  I'm agnostic on tech, but I care about performance.  It performs or it doesn't.  If it doesn't, then it's not a solution.

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#370 2018-10-27 14:09:45

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,017
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

kdb512,

The energy density of batteries doesn't matter that much for most applications. Most batteries are going to be stationary, and freight can use electrified railway lines for the bulk of transportation. Unless your plan is to use porta-nukes for powering vehicles, they're in a different niche to 2.5kWh/kg batteries.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#371 2018-10-27 16:33:36

kbd512
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Terraformer,

If you meant to say that weight and energy density is relative to the requirement of a particular application, then I'd agree completely with that sentiment.  However, weight matters greatly for any application where the energy production or storage device in question has to be moved from one place to another and I'm unaware of any application where movement is never required.  It's hyper-critical in rocketry, very important for aircraft, still a substantial consideration for motor vehicles, but less important for cargo ships and trains.  Everything on the planet has to be transported somewhere, so yes, weight does matter, even when the object in question will only be moved once.  That's why shipping costs are almost entirely based upon shipping weight.  Furthermore, energy density matters greatly for any practical replacement of liquid hydrocarbon fuels with batteries or super capacitors.  Pretending that it doesn't is ignoring reality.  Engineers instinctively know this.

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#372 2018-10-27 16:52:59

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

Part of the nuclear question is just how large do we need to make these units as most small towns are less than 5000 and all they need is to be tamper proof once installed.

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#373 2018-10-28 05:03:22

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,087

Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

They also need to be foolproof, and the creativity of fools knows no bounds!

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#374 2018-11-03 17:42:45

SpaceNut
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Re: When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

We have talked about the global ice melt and what happens as the temperatures warm with the evaporation rate climbing and where the water will come down as rain... wel I have been getting plenty of rain for weeks now and it would seem that venice has its own troubles....

Venice flooding: City inundated by exceptional high tide

Venice flooding: Death toll rises to 17 and not even the A $6.5 billion sea wall was supposed to stop Venice from flooding. Now, most of the city is underwater. tide reaches 43 inches

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#375 2018-11-04 12:33:52

SpaceNut
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