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#26 2019-01-22 17:35:33

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,016

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

Per a part of post #22, about verbal skills, I have noticed that many very intelligent people stumble while expressing their thoughts in words.
Elon Musk,
Peter Zeihan,
George Friedman

As examples.

I feel that an excessively precise verbal skill might have a tendency to overpower other mental skills.  In other words a person not naturally verbally precise, may actually have vision, and be more likely to be technological in their process.  As objects are more manipulated by hand/eye, than mouth/ear.

Where mouth/ear might be even most powerful is in manipulating people.

Each has it's place when it can be used to prosper the human condition.

But of course like all tools they can be used for no good things as well.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#27 2019-01-22 19:13:35

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,286

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

The wavelengths of visible light occur between 400 and 700 nm, so the bandwidth wavelength for silicon solar cells is in the very near infrared range. Any radiation with a longer wavelength, such as microwaves and radio waves, lacks the energy to produce electricity from a solar cell.

Solar radiation with wavelengths of 380 nm to 750 nm (violet to red) strike the material with enough energy to knock electrons from their weak bonds and create an electric current. The unused wavelengths (ultraviolet & infrared) do not have enough energy to dislodge the electrons and are absorbed as heat.



What if we could have a green house built with solar panels that moved to allow light to go into the chamber and just be for night they would close back up and produced light for the crops that are growing within,,,,

Scientists discover material that can be solar cell by day, light panel by night

Scientists have developed a next-generation solar cell material ... The new cells not only glow when electricity passes through them, ... This is a significant finding as most solar cell materials are good at absorbing light but ... Low-temperature solution-processed wavelength-tunable perovskites for lasing.

This Solar Cell Can Capture All Wavelengths of Solar Spectrum

Each layer is used to absorb a specific wavelength of light, allowing others to pass through to be collected further down. Most of the solar energy falling on Earth has wavelengths of wavelengths of 250nm to 2500nm.

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#28 2019-01-22 19:56:21

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,163

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

Digging a bit deeper regarding IR fusion ...

Reference cited in Void's original post:  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0835-2

A view of the citation costs $8.99 ... however, a NewMars reader with access to a university library may be able to access the article directly.

Letter | Published: 16 January 2019
Photoredox catalysis using infrared light via triplet fusion upconversion

    Benjamin D. Ravetz, Andrew B. Pun, Emily M. Churchill, Daniel N. Congreve, Tomislav Rovis & Luis M. Campos

Naturevolume 565, pages343–346 (2019) | Download Citation

and, from the Abstract:

Here we demonstrate various photoredox transformations under infrared radiation by utilizing the photophysical process of triplet fusion upconversion, a mechanism by which two low-energy photons are converted into a higher-energy photon. We show that this is a general strategy applicable to a wide range of photoredox reactions.

Edit 2019/01/22 ... It turns out that a pdf copy of the article costs $32.00

However, a link provides a view of the first page, plus an out-of-focus view of the rest of the article:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586- … rer=nature

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-01-22 21:21:00)

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#29 2019-01-22 21:07:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,016

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

Per your post #26 SpaceNut…
Quote:

What if we could have a green house built with solar panels that moved to allow light to go into the chamber and just be for night they would close back up and produced light for the crops that are growing within,,,,

I support your thinking.  But now you have entered the age of robotics and that will involve computers and software.  I have tainted you smile
I would add that your moving panels could have selectively reflective undersides.  Only to reflect light wavelengths suitable to plants.  Whereas, the solar cell side could be illuminated at the same time by heliostats at the rear of your greenhouse.  And in this interpretation of your scheme, the solar panel/mirror panel devices could also be insulated.  So that at night on a flat roof they would then close to shine light into your greenhouse and would present the mirror side out, and would insulate the greenhouse from the deep night cold to the degree desired.

I will resist the urge to take this yet further into another direction.  Please continue if you wish to build on your concepts.

Remember this though:
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html
Where also I believe we can utilize U.V. also and temperatures up to....
Quote:

In experiments, the new absorbers were shown to operate at a temperature of 800 degrees Celsius and to absorb light of wavelengths ranging from 300 to 1750 nanometers, that is, from ultraviolet (UV) to near-infrared wavelengths.

It is really exciting how many new tools are showing up, and I would anticipate that this is just the beginning.

……


I am going to open a new topic "Underground vs Above Ground".  The "Spoiler" is that I think we want both, per Isacc Arthur and EM's Boring Company.

Done

Last edited by Void (2019-01-22 21:14:01)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#30 2019-01-23 11:05:40

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,163

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

20190123 Note to Void

Best wishes for swift recovery from ailment!

As it happens I am now the one who is sick and mostly stranded at home, so this is what you get.

Thank you for showing links to brilliant.org!

In topic: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

    Subterranean Civilizations Jan 17, 2019

In topic: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar? #18

    Outward Bound: Colonizing the Oort Cloud December 14, 2017

The production values of these episodes are impressive, as is the list of contributors.


Do you have a Facebook page, by any chance?

FluxBB does not support feedback to authors on the forum, other than visible posts like this.  If you have a Facebook page, and if you post a link there to your posts on NewMars.com, then people who see your posts can “Like” them, and give you a bit of feedback without cluttering up the NewMars forum as I am doing here.


Finally, I am posting in Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds because that is where you introduced the topic of IR Fusion.

I'd like to report that as I investigate this topic, I've found there are already at least five patents issued around the general concept of upconversion of photons.  I found two by searching the patent database with one set of terms, and three by another. The most recent was awarded in January of 2019, although (I gather) the application dates back to 2015, and the work must have been going on long before that.

The conclusion I've come to is that this phenomenon is in the realm of Quantum Mechanics, which I find more than daunting.  In addition, it has to do with transitions of energy levels of electrons in atoms, which is daunting enough. 
From general education, I understand that electrons can be lifted from a lower energy state to a higher one by influence of arriving photons, or (apparently) through the mechanism of energy transfer via collision with atoms other than the host atom.

Another mechanism for release of photons from atoms is change of direction, again (most likely) due to collisions with other atoms.  There may be other mechanisms.

What was a new concept (for me at least) was the idea that a lower energy photon could combine with another lower energy photon to move an electron to a higher energy state. That had always seemed counter-intuitive to me, but apparently there are occasions in nature when it can happen.

In the real world, we humans use force multipliers such as levers to raise mechanisms to higher energy states than we could achieve through direct manual effort.  One of many examples is lifting an automobile to change a tire.   Multiple small exertions accumulate to achieve a much greater result.

In this case, I am intrigued by the possibility that “waste” heat in the form of infrared radiation can be enlisted to perform useful work through quantum transitions.

Looking out a bit, perhaps whatever mechanism this is can be adapted to generate higher energy photons using visible light, although I presume there is an upper limit for creation of photons due to electron level transition.

Edit 2019/01/23 ...

Looking further ...l
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest … absorption

Above link points here:
https://www.rp-photonics.com/upconversion.html

This article clearly shows the pumping effect which can occur, to allow multiple lower energy photons to raise electron levels so that a photon emitted is more energetic than the pumping photons.  There is a diagram that shows the effect.

Also note that the stack exchange article notes the effect of collisions to increase the energy state.  The distinction here is that the two atoms/molecules must both have been optically exited before the collision.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-01-23 21:56:02)

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#31 2019-01-23 11:20:40

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,016

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

tahanson43206

Thanks.

No I don't currently participate in facebook.  I have considered it, may do it although to be honest I have misgivings about it.  But it seems to be here to stay.

Yes I see that you are really interested in the topic of 2 infrared > 1 visible photon.

I think you are by far more qualified to understand how these things work.

I simply have passing interest.  Some of these thing will go on to be big stuff, many may not.

While I am very cautious about the notion of finding an ideal free lunch, I have no problems looking for a less costly lunch.  So I always have my radar on for such potentials.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#32 2019-01-23 18:40:40

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,286

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

Ya I hope it passes more quickly than what I got as I am still coughing from the drip....

I got one but the clunker of a computer is much go for it and my dumb for is a work requirement....

I seem to remember what tahanson43206 is talking about in Quantum dot technology as a means to remove the heat which causes a panels output to drop as it gets hot.

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#33 2019-01-25 13:44:44

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,163

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

For Void ...

May I offer you a choice ???

You can allow the topic of photon upconversion to flow under the bridge, as a passing interest.  I will accept that decision.

Or you can create a new topic under your ID, where the subject can be developed under your protection, but without your direct involvement.

If you decide to create a topic that would be dedicated to investigating the potential of this discovery, I offer this starting suggestion:

Photon upconversion appears to be a "real" phenomenon of Nature.  It is being exploited in the biological field, and apparently is considered to have potential value in other fields as well, because five patents have been applied for that claim intellectual property around this discovery.  In particular, as SpaceNut pointed out, it is being incorporated into the design of full spectrum solar cells, as a way of capturing energy from the near infrared spectrum.

From articles reported earlier in this thread, I gather that there are at least two mechanisms for photon upconversion.  The first appears to be successive inputs of lower energy photons which pump electrons to higher levels, with the payoff coming when a photon of higher energy is released.

However, the one that I find particularly interesting is one that combines inputs from photons with energy delivered by collision (heat). 

This report leads me to imagine a battery that can be recharged by immersion in hot coals.   In this scenario, heat flowing into the device would contribute to photon upconversion leading to input to photovoltaic devices which themselves deliver current to a battery capable of holding energy despite thermal activity.

I have no idea if a battery can be constructed that would operate at temperatures found in glowing coals, so the concept may not be achievable in the real world.

However, if the concept is not in violation of physics, and if it can be made practical, then a back packer carrying such a device could recharge it with a handy wood fire.  I gather that there are already offered on the market devices which use heat flow as a recharging mechanism, which says to me that there must be a sufficient market to have justified all the effort someone went to to bring such devices to market.

The difference here is that heat flow would NOT be involved.  The device would collect energy from a thermal environment and convert it to stored energy using ONLY quantum physics.

Again ... at this point I have no idea if this concept violates laws of physics of which I am unaware, but would like to offer it for consideration.

(th)

Void wrote:

tahanson43206

Thanks.

No I don't currently participate in facebook.  I have considered it, may do it although to be honest I have misgivings about it.  But it seems to be here to stay.

Yes I see that you are really interested in the topic of 2 infrared > 1 visible photon.

I think you are by far more qualified to understand how these things work.

I simply have passing interest.  Some of these thing will go on to be big stuff, many may not.

While I am very cautious about the notion of finding an ideal free lunch, I have no problems looking for a less costly lunch.  So I always have my radar on for such potentials.

Done.

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#34 2019-01-25 18:44:38

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,286

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

The forums have had trouble keeping narrow focused topics even when that is implied by the first post with few participating in them.

As for the up photon boost from slow speed short wavelength the energy to accelerate the proton much come from somewhere in order to make it work.

The multi layer solar panels are tricking the photon via the materials to creating energy from what enters as it filters the incoming through each layer of material change to catch the desired wavelength.

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#35 2019-01-25 20:16:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,016

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

tahanson43206

Yes, if it helps you I will accommodate you.  You could have just taken it as I really did sort of abandon it.
I may seek to contribute, or more likely inquire on the topic.  I really feel that I am undersized for this one.  However you have already helped me to comprehend it better.  Probably start your topic tonight, but certainly by tomorrow.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#36 2019-02-08 22:16:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,286

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

I am posting the article here as its not Infared to light but going from visible light to infrared instead.

Novel materials convert visible into infrared light; Discovery opens up new routes for photodynamic therapy and drug development

So through the use of materials we can slow a photon to make heat...

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#37 2019-02-09 09:15:23

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,163

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

For SpaceNut .... we might have found a way to bring this topic back to heliostats !!!

In the article you cited in #36 above, the researchers (who appear to be the same ones Void original cited for upconversion), may have found a way to store visible light energy directly as heat energy.  At present (to the best of my knowledge) visible light is converted to heat energy by causing the light to flow onto surfaces painted with black material chosen to absorb as much light energy as possible.  Examples are systems for heating water (or other fluid) in blackened pipes.  Not having yet read the underlying paper, I am not sure if the new discoveries improve substantially on existing systems to convert solar visible light into heat. 

In fact, (as I interpret the article), the researchers aren't interested in heat, but instead are interested in moving energy unobtrusively through body tissues, in order to achieve a therapeutic effect at a specific location.

My interest in the technique is to see if it improves upon existing technology for visible light to heat conversion as it applies to Mars.  Humans on Mars are going to need plenty of supplementary heat just to keep their habitats warm, and the more efficient the pathway to collect and convert solar energy for heating purposes the better.

(th)

Other potential applications include remote management of chemical storage solar power production and data storage, drug development, sensors, food safety methods, moldable bone-mimic composites and processing microelectronic components.

The researchers are currently testing photon-upconversion technologies in additional biological systems. "This opens up unprecedented opportunities to change the way light interacts with living organisms," Campos said. "In fact, right now we are employing upconversion techniques for tissue engineering and drug delivery."

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#38 2019-12-01 21:39:11

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,286

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/helioge … sil-fuels/

Commercial temperature of 565 c with the current configuration with the company trying to reach 1000 c plus with destination of 1500 c to be able to breakdown co2 and water to form syngas.

Thats not a possible for the single chamber so its a 2 chamber and a sabitier to react the co and h to make the syngas

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#39 2019-12-11 21:24:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,286

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

Molten salt is used on earth so why not on mars as well

CrescentDunesSolar529px.png?itok=6E3IH1I5

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1601 … nes-nevada

The tank holds enough molten salt to run the generator for 10 hours; that represents 1,100 megawatt hours of storage, or nearly 10 times more than the largest lithium-ion battery systems that have been installed to store renewable power.

csp-salt-storage-road_robert-dietrich.png?itok=vR1SnyIy

So what size is a home residential units storage?

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#40 2020-01-06 20:15:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,286

Re: Heliostats on Mars, and other worlds.

The building of a comples on earth mired in debt and is obsolete before its generating power which contains many custom parts

A $1 billion solar plant was obsolete before it ever went online

Ten thousand mirrors form a spiral almost 2 miles wide that winds around a skyscraper rising above the desert between Las Vegas and Reno. The operation soaks up enough heat from the sun’s rays to spin steam turbines and store energy in the form of molten salt.

This is a story of politics mostly and going with a company that did not meet the standard.

Here are 2 more topics that relate to concentrated solar reflection on a molten salt conversiona dn turbine system of heat storage.

Solar Heliostat System with Molten Salt Bath, and Liquid CO2 Method
Solar plus turbine..

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