The Moon

Void · 2024-02-24 09:08:49

Importing this from another topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 43#p219743
Quote:

This is an interesting video about Optimus, I note that he mentions off planet use of the robots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUpVpDB84-A Quote:
Musk Shows MAJOR Teslabot Improvements!
Dr. Know-it-all Knows it all
75.7K subscribers
He mentions Mars, and the clouds of Venus among other things.
Done

The mention of using robots on other worlds, does not mention the Moon, but of course the Moon would be a very good proving ground for it.

The Moon many require different versions, perhaps the robot needs to cool its electric parts in a vacuum. Walking of course would be different, 1/6th g.

Obviously though the robots would need a different type of Life-Support, likely less demanding than that for humans.

But a Lunar economy, based on robot object manipulation, seems possible.

Our notions of the Moon previously considered polar water to be essential to Lunar development, but I think robotics will make that less important, but still having some importance.

It is interesting to consider the notions of how to power rockets on the Moon. This article is "Rocks to Rockets": https://aerospaceamerica.aiaa.org/depar … ropellant/

If that were instituted on a large scale, also it may be possible import fuels to Lunar orbit from other places, including the Earth.

If the rock rockets were able to simply lift materials to Low Lunar Orbit, then they could deliver Oxygen and built parts. If a fuel from Earth and perhaps later from other worlds, could be supplied from a depot in LLO, then it might be a thing that works well enough.

By doing it that way, Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen on the Moon could be conserved to the Moon.

So, a transit rocket would deliver fuel to LLO, and the Moon would deliver Oxygen and made parts to LLO.

I don't think it is a thing to rule out, after all we move huge tankers around the Earth to power our economies.

I actually wonder if a CO+O2 rocket could work well for the orbital transit rockets Earth<>Moon. Carbon would be easy to store for transfer to LLO. Actually, the German coal burning jet engine comes to mind for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippisch_P.13a

It is tempting to hope to burn silicon in a similar fashion or other metals, but they may "Coke" the engines.

It is possible that an engine could have a pre-burner, that would produce CO from Carbon Dust and Oxygen.

Sort of sand flowing through an Hourglass thing: https://matjazerjavec.si/usposabljanje- … 0-minutes/ Image Quote:

Presuming that the rocket could start the process somehow, dry granular fuel would pass though from the upper chamber to the lower chamber. A burn process in the lower chamber would produce CO. But you would have to pressurize the upper chamber by routing some of the produced CO to the upper chamber from the lower chamber, in order to pressurize the upper chamber so that rocket g forces can keep the granular material flowing.

Then you would need a rocket engine to burn the hot CO and also O2 in.

Probably tricky business to get it started. But Carbon, might be a very storable fuel.

Making it flow through an hourglass restriction might be tricky, it might want to jam up.

Keeping in mind that I do not intend this to lift off of a world, but to work in orbital situations.

I confess there may very well be better alternatives for that, but it was fun thinking of how to do it.

I wonder if you could do that with metal powders made from Moon materials? Aluminum without an oxide coating?

Perhaps a mixture of metal powders mixed with Carbon?

A shaker might help the fluidized powder/granules to pass though the throat of the hourglass.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-24 10:11:06)

Void · 2024-02-24 11:24:53

About the propulsion methods I talked of in the last post....Probably half baked. But you have to half bake something before it can be baked.

Obviously, a CO/O2 engine is possible. But burning solid Carbon Granules is going to present troubles. And then trying to burn granules of a metal like Aluminum, even more trouble. So, I will put that on the shelf for now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-24 11:26:41)

Void · 2024-02-24 12:28:10

Just to get some more solid footing about Carbon Monoxide as a fuel:

https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … nt-on-mars
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19960045922
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19910014990

So, it has been considered for Mars. I read that it needs to even a bit colder than O2 to store. And it seems improper to consider it for Moon operations, but............

You could eject Carbon onto the surface of the Moon prior to touch down. Also, Carbon will keep very well without boiloff.
You could store Carbon in Lunar orbit for a long time.

If you don't want to work with granular or powdered Carbon in a rocket, then you could react Carbon with Lunar Oxygen. In fact, you could create CO by reacting Carbon with heated Lunar Regolith, I believe.

So, the idea may not be entirely wrong for the Moon. But we don't know if it is worth the trouble at this point, yet.

There are other hints of CO as a fuel in rockets, but it is of course not a high-performance fuel, but may have qualities worth considering for some matters. For instance, I would like to conserve the Hydrogen on the Moon, eventually. Perhaps at first it can be used, but later, it would be better to use if as water on the Moon, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-24 12:37:52)

Void · 2024-02-24 15:33:37

Keep in mind that I am doing this for entertainment. Failure is an option, until you can do better, if ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_ejector

I am thinking that if you can create some CO, then you could run a turbopump that would ingest that CO and Oxygen. The burn in it would power the turbopump. Then if you could feed that into an ejector, you might pull in Carbon granules, from the hourglass notion I had. You may want to pressurize the tank with the granular Carbon to some degree, SpaceX has a tank failure limit of about 6 bars. A fuel or CO2 would perhaps be OK for the pressurization gas of the granular Carbon fuel tank, I think.

The turbopump pushing the partly consumed Oxygen gas flow through a venturi device, might pull a relative vacuum on the granular Carbon fuel line.

Not really sure it would work but it sort of moves in the right direction.

You probably would want a shaker on the Carbon Granule fuel tank to help fluidize the Carbon Granules/Powder.

If this could work, then you can burn Carbon, not just CO, so you get more out of the fuel which of course costs to produce and deliver to a purpose.

Done

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Void · 2024-02-24 15:47:13

The reason I am interested in this is because Carbon can be stable. As I have said before, better methods of propulsions are likely to come into existence. Possibly for the Moon some kind of Hybrid rocket that burns metals.

A search suggests that that could be true: https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc … e-burning/
Quote:

Hey, Let's Burn Some Metal in Zero Gravity
Scientists just want to see what happens.
BY CAROLINE DELBERTPUBLISHED: NOV 08, 2019 3:50 PM EST

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1mIUWZ
Quote:

Prototype rocket engine burns itself up for fuel as it flies
Story by Leah Crane • 1mo

While the granular Carbon notion may be possible, what I have in mind is a multistage burning process. A sort of Hybrid.
I would want a pre-burner that would heat the Oxygen side, perhaps burning Carbon, but to be honest, maybe it should be a Hydrocarbon fuel. Methane might be nice for it, but RP-1 is storable. So, then that is the pilot. Then you have to burn your metal fuels from the Moon with the partly burned Oxygen stream, the Oxygen also being from the Moon. A bit like a cutting torch.

I suppose I might speculate on granular metals, but reading the above article, I suspect that you could try a Metal fuel cartridge. Hopefully it could changed out relatively easily and the Oxygen preheater and presumed rocket nozzle would be reusable.

Anyway, this may suggest that there could be ways to stretch the Hydrogen available on the Moon out to last longer. Eventually Hydrocarbon fuels might be imported from elsewhere, such as Mars/Phobos/Deimos, or really maybe Earth.

If the Hydrocarbon is a said 5-10% of the process and metals are 90-95% of the process, and the Oxygen comes from the Moon as well as the Metals, maybe it would be worthwhile.

So, what I am getting at, is maybe metal fuels could be made to work well enough for the Moon, even to launch to Low Lunar Orbit and more.

Maybe.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-24 16:03:02)

Void · 2024-02-27 14:10:05

I have found evidence of a more professional version of making rockets run on rocks. Here is one article: https://aerospaceamerica.aiaa.org/depar … ropellant/
Quote:

Walking on rocket propellant
APRIL 2021
Returning to the moon to stay will require making rocket propellant on site, so that crews can rotate back to Earth. As it turns out, mining water ice may not be the fastest or easiest way to produce lunar rocket propellant.

I was rather young, in the days of Gerard K. O'Neill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_K._O%27Neill

I was enthusiastic about the concepts that appeared at that time location. It made sense then, Mass Drivers and orbital habitats. It could still make some sense, but I see mounting evidence that a different approach may be important due to recent developments.

1) Thinking about rockets from the Moon that would not depend solely on water ice.
2) Humanoid or pseudo animal robots.
3) Discovery that it may be possible to keep adult humans relatively healthy in the Moons gravity, if they have some periodic exercise in a centrifuge.
4) The solar wind may be making water on the Moon, and other sources may be building water on the Moon such as impactors. I think it is possible that Hydrogen and/or water may be seeping out of the Moons interior.
5) Japanese people have considered spin habitats on the Moon.
6) The Neumann Drive suggests that electric rockets running on many different elements is possible, so the Moon could be a source of these materials.
7) Skyhooks may eventually be made to work for the Moon, to snatch things up and to set things down.

So, it is becoming apparent to me that rather than turning the Moon into an extraction process only, with some science, the Moons surface could become a factory floor to construct many things that could stay on the surface of the Moon or could be lifted off of the surface of the Moon.

Skyhooks is pushing the envelope quite a bit, but if it were possible to lower organic materials down to the surface of the Moon and to snatch up to orbit things manufactured on the Moon, that might work out rather well.

Organic materials brought in from another world dropped to the surface of the Moon. Dropping would be easier than setting stuff down, but you could also set stuff down.

One interesting idea would be to set a low powered freight ship at a path that it could land on the Moon with a cargo. I wonder if landing in a shadowed crater, if the rocket exhaust in part could be retained on the Moon as ice?

But there are things you could hard drip to the Moon, like Carbon, or Wood, Paraffin Wax, Tar, Plastics and so on.
Of course, two types of loss might occur if it is too violent of an impact. Conversion of a chemical like wood into vapors, and dispersal over a wide area.

One interesting combination would be to have a low powered ship with a cargo, using a skyhook to reduce it's speed and altitude, the ship then dependent on its landing engines, might cast it's cargo off to an impact, prior to the ship landing.

If I understand terminal velocity on the Moon without a atmosphere of consequence, the fall is time limited, so the inertia accumulated is limited. So, it would seem that the speed could be infinite, which would be bad, but the faster you go the sooner you hit the surface and stop accelerating.

As for snatching loads up into the sky, that would be a neat trick. I don't know if you could refuel a ship that landed and then snatch it up, but who knows, with computers it might be possible.

I think skyhooks could have thrusters on the snatching end, and perhaps something like fishing gear with drag and the ability to cast the line out further. But we may see if we live long enough.

So, maybe Mass Drivers from the Moon will not be the only way to go.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-28 15:08:00)

Void · 2024-02-29 09:42:33

Although in the last post I veered away from the 70's mass driver/Orbital Habitat visions, I want to remind a notion to the reader of a possible way to use the Neumann Drive as a mass driver method.

It appears that an idiot did this in the past: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 24#p210924

https://neumannspace.com/

This tells of the materials that may be used in a Neumann Electric Thruster: https://neumannspace.com/metal-propellants/
Quote:

Useable fuels for:
Neumann Thrusters (not including alloys)
Hall Effect and Ion Thrusters

I think Silicon, Iron, Aluminum, and Calcium are included, and those are available on the Moon, I believe.

So, if you want to think backward, the Neumann Drive might be repurposed to be a matter projector.

So, you might use Neumann Drives mounted on the Moons surface to project matter to some place in the orbit of the Moon, or perhaps even a "L" location. (L4, L5, maybe somehow L1, L2).

But I fear that projecting too far, the projecting plume may spread too much, and the Solar Wind and Photons might send it off course.

So, for the moment, a simple concept would be a centrifugal cup in low orbit of the Moon to receive the projected plume.

I use that picture as it was the notion that the 70's concept had to projecting bags of regolith to L4 or L5 from the Moon, as a catcher.

In this case, the projected plume might form a ballistic arc getting ready to fall back down to the Moon, but the centrifugal cup may intercept it. I guess the differential speed may be of a big concern though. But as the cup may be filled with powder the impact may be of a cushioned nature. Subjecting iron powder to a magnetic field will cause it to adopt a spongy, characteristic that could provide shock absorption, and a grip of sorts to grab impacting plume materials.

If the Neumann Drives on the surface were projecting Iron, on the trip to the cup they may radiate enough heat to cool below their curie point, and so they may also become magnetic. So, the "Centrifugal Cup" would also have magnetic attraction.

For other electrically conductive materials such as Aluminum, passage through a magnetic field might induce a counter magnetic field. I am not sure, but I think that while they were in relative motion they would also get pulled in by a magnetic field.

There would be a lot of factors which would determine if an orbital accumulator of this kind could collect mass or would be eroded by the projected plume(s). But it may be that these projected plumes could push the accumulator, and so keep it in orbit.

If this can be done in some fashion, then of course things could be constructed of the received materials.

You could also use the collected materials in an electric rocket type Neumann Drive to travel somewhere with a payload.

I also see the possibility of a 2 stage Hybrid Rocket propulsion method. That would be to burn a hydrocarbon, in Oxygen to provide a heated Oxidizer to flow into a 3D printed metal fuel core, to be the 2nd stage of the process. A latus printed of a metal, having appropriate pore space to allow the hot Oxidizer steam to flow through and promote a metal combustion process.

Ideally the hydrocarbon would come from a non-Moon source and would be a small portion of the burn fuel, the metals providing the bulk of the fuel. But perhaps you could burn a metal powder, but that seems like a hard thing to do, just now.

So, then we have a burn method of propulsion to a large degree based on the Moon materials.

It may not seem probable that a Neumann Drive could project Oxygen to a catcher in orbit, so the Oxidizer for this process, if to come from the Moon needs some appropriate method.

Perhaps even a burn method would be used to lift LOX to orbit, not sure.

I suppose a 2 stage rocket that used a bit of Hydrocarbons, and a lot of metal fuels might be good enough. But then you have to get a hydrocarbon fuel onto the surface of the Moon. So, then we might start considering a tethered drop of something containing Carbon and Hydrogen.

Or to be less fantastic, a 2 stage hybrid rocket to land something like RP-1 to the Moons surface. Perhaps in time that process would wuse a tethered drop where the rocket is lowered, and then uses engines to finish the landing.

It is something to work on.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-29 10:21:53)

Void · 2024-03-01 11:25:14

Certain problems with using a Neumann Drive to project dust to a magnetic collector have emerged in my mind.

For one thing, I have been thinking it may be possible to throttle a magnetic field, so that you could use the field to be pushed by the solar wind selectively in certain parts of an orbit. A magnetic field supported by a superconductor may not allow that. To collapse the magnetic field, you would have to store the electricity somewhere, perhaps batteries might do though. Capacitors would do just fine, but I think that you could not have a sufficiency of them.

Otherwise, you would have to generate a new field each required time, and dissipate an existing field by some means, discharging its electric power to some purpose.

I am not giving up, I am just defining the problem better, I think.

One strange notion might be to have a tether, and have a magnetic field on each end, but to move the power back and forth between the two to capture a desired momentum from the solar wind. This needs more consideration, I think. Would it be a spinning tether, or a vertical tether?

Vertical is easier to think about. I am not sure what benefit this would provide as per thrust. I guess the solar wind must impinge on the Moon, so does it have variable concentrations in the wake, following impact?

I found this: https://science.nasa.gov/moon/solar-wind/

OK, what I know is that I don't know enough. I am imagining that the solar wind compresses as it impacts and passes by the Moons terminator line, and that it has a sort of a tail in the lee of the Moon. But maybe I am wrong. I also expect that electrons will fill the tail on the leeward side faster than ions(+) will.

Another way to move a magnetic field up and down on a tether would be to actually have the mechanism producing the field physically move up and down on the tether. So, it might encounter more or less of a concentration of solar wind, if indeed the solar wind is concentrated and perhaps accelerated by flowing around the obstacle of the Moon.

Perhaps such a manipulation could capture momentum from the solar wind to the orbital assembly. As desired, it might move up or down in orbit.

But there is also a concern for orbital energy decaying, if the magnetic field lines cross magnetic effects bonded to the Moon itself.

And the question is also how might mass plumes from Neumann Drives used as Mass Drivers interact with the magnetic field imposed on the tether?

Technically such plumes might act like a wind in themselves, perhaps blowing a magnetic field around, but also perhaps catching and absorbing the plumes into the magnetic epicenter. Or would some plumes be deflected? Maybe not.

Orbital energy could be imparted to the magnetic device, by blowing on it with plumes from Neumann Drives mounted on the Moons surface. The plumes would not so much go straight up but perhaps in an arc to intercept the magnetic field.

My big hope would be that at least Iron and Nickle might be possible to accumulate into the magnetic field.

I have been curious about magnetic alloys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_alloy

It might be possible that an output of a Neumann Drive using Iron/Aluminum or other substances could be magnetic.

Upon ejection from the Neumann Drive, the output would be very much above the Currie point. But being a fine dust, may cool very quickly, I hope and drop back down below the curie point, and be possible to capture into a magnetic field.

Also, many metals such as Aluminum may respond to inductive reactance and so be affected by a magnetic field from that.

Silicon apparently can be included in some alloys, but I don't know if the Neumann Drive using such could make an output that would be attracted to a magnetic field: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium … con_alloys

I don't think I see a very good case for sending Oxygen by this means. Oh well, I sort of have notions but for now I will shelve them.

At any rate a method to deliver magnetic responding dust to an orbital collector would have some utility. The dust could be propulsion mass in many methods, including Mass Drivers, and Neumann Drives, and even metal combustion rockets. And of course you could build things out of it.

However, for the moment I am rather in favor of building things on the Moon and then lifting them to Low Lunar Orbit. But then you would have magnetically captured mass to use as propellant to get these created objects to other places in the solar system.

Anyway, it is easy to fail, and easy to be dismissed. At least I have tried to cut a way to new methods to perhaps achieve valuable things.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-01 12:09:46)

Void · 2024-03-03 13:04:06

With landers breaking legs, I think a case can be made for dropping loads from landing craft prior to ground contact.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/o … r-BB1j4cdp Quote:

Odysseus lander tipped over on the moon: Here's why NASA says the mission was still a success
Story by Eric Lagatta, USA TODAY • 3d

I do realize that if the craft had had more ideal circumstances, it may not have had this problem, but it does illustrate that landing gear has limits of loading and that you pay a price for fortifying landing gear, as greater mass of landing gear requires greater expenditure of propellants to get to the Moon.

For the moment I have three partial solutions to the problem.
1) Ejection.
2) Dangle
3) Landing gear repurposing

1) Ejection is to through a material from the ship prior to the ship landing. This could reduce the ships mass and reduce the shock to landing gear. Materials I have an eye on for this are things not easily available on the Moon. Typically solid materials with Carbon in them, or pure metals and alloys that may be useful to feed into things like 3D printers to achieve the production of useful parts.

2) Nasa has already used dangle, with its sky crane. But to deliver desired materials to the Moon, dangle would be a little different. I have considered chains for this. Chain dangling from a landing craft would settle to the surface of the Moon prior to the actual ship landing. This could get complicated as the chains may impinge on the landing thrusters' plumes. So, one possibility is to spin the ship a little. The centrifugal force would spread the chains away from the plumes of the landing craft. But of course, spin could be a problem on contact with the surface by the ship.

* For both #1 and #2 a landing ship may not even have landing gear, if it is to deliver its payload and go back to orbit.
In the case of #2, then the chains would have to be cut to drop them to the surface. But most likely a craft getting that close to the surface should be refilled with propellants of some kind.

3) Landing gear repurposing. A case for this would be to make your landing gear out of a Carbon bearing compound.

Then do not take the landing gear back into orbit but repurpose it. One thing would be to convert the landing gear into fuel.

Landing gear could be made of Carbon, Plastic, or Wood perhaps.

If a fuel could be produced from the landing gear, then it could be used to heat an Oxidizer mixture, by burning in a turbopump method. Then that hot Oxidizer could be used to burn metal fuels derived from Lunar regolith.

And the Oxygen for the flight would also come from the Moon.

Fuels created from the landing legs could be Hydrocarbons, Carbon Monoxide, and even perhaps Carbon granules.

Carbon Granules would be the hardest to use as a fuel.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-03 13:27:43)

Void · 2024-03-05 10:18:38

I have run into an interesting video, which I will include, but first I also want to go a little further on landing legs.

These could be more or less the bulk of cargo. Although some special parts might be delivered by a lander, in reality your lander might pretty much have the task of delivering it's landing legs, and leaving them behind. As they are to be used once and then recycled/repurposed, they may also have a crushable characteristic to assist the landing events.

In general things desired in the landing legs would be Carbon, Hydrogen, and Nitrogen. Also special materials to help in the production of alloys on the Moon.

So, Plastics, Wood Carbon Structure, Paraffin Wax, Tar are some things that could be looked at. In the early days, these could come from Earth. So, creating low cost to LEO, deliveries, and also methods to transit bulk cargos such as leg assemblies, Earth>Moon Orbit would be valuable. Such transit methods could be slow and efficient, probably not involving Metha Lox propulsions for that leg of the delivery.

Now here is a video about self-replication machinery on the Moon and in the solar system and beyond:

I will include that video soon in a following post.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-05 10:51:22)

Void · 2024-03-05 11:31:32

Here is the Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo863_0SI_o
Quote:

How Close Are We To Self-Replicating Robots Conquering Space?
Fraser Cain
423K subscribers
Subscribe

I am going to watch the video again and then comment.

Factors mentioned:
Thermionic Device: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermionic_converter
Frenzel Lense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens
Exaptation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaptation

Also, they 3D printed an electric motor.

I like his work quite a lot. But I think that small worlds will be easier to access and work with than what he expects:
I have a post about that here: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 76#p220076

So, I am inclined to think that at the time the Moon were accessed, other worlds may be accessible and so the total spectrum of materials available will be possible to bring to the Moon.

I understand his desire to think about a singular machine replicating itself as a needed accomplishment. But, I feel that a swarm of robots is more likely to be the growth method.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-05 12:15:55)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-06 07:14:41

tidally locked is a major issue

some theorized the ancient Moon perhaps had a type of atmosphere and maybe just maybe it could have supported life

it almost is an invitation but an impossible world to Terraform?

Lunar Terraforming: Building an Underground Moon Base
https://www.ultra-unlimited.com/blog/lu … -moon-base
Terraforming the Moon: A Multidisciplinary Exploration of Building a Sustainable Lunar Base

the lunar environment poses significant challenges for human habitation:
Lack of atmosphere and extreme temperature variation: Without an insulating atmosphere, the Moon's surface temperature ranges from 123°C in direct sunlight to -173°C in darkness. The lack of atmosphere also means no protection from solar radiation, micrometeoroids, or variability in weather.
Low gravity: The Moon's gravity is only 17% of Earth's, which causes health problems related to muscle loss and bone density over time. Prolonged stays may require artificial gravity habitats.
Lack of readily accessible resources: There are no liquid bodies of water known on the Moon currently. Instead, water exists primarily as ice in permanently shadowed craters near the poles. Oxygen and other volatiles are also scarce on the surface. Thus, inhabiting the Moon long-term will require efficient in-situ resource utilization.
Abrupt transitions between light and dark: Due to the long revolution period of the Moon (a lunar day lasts about 29 Earth days), locations on the surface rapidly transition from complete darkness to bright sunlight and back. This makes temperature control and power generation challenging.
Frequent micrometeoroid impacts: With no atmosphere for protection, the lunar surface is constantly bombarded by micrometeoroids. Over decades, this "space weathering" can degrade structures and equipment. Dust mitigation is another crucial challenge.
In summary, the lack of atmosphere and extreme temperatures are the most immediate threats for crewed lunar habitation. Terraforming efforts will likely focus first on regulating temperature, providing breathable air, blocking radiation, and stabilizing access to solar power. Protecting hardware from space weathering can be achieved more simply through location choices, burials, and regular maintenance. Low gravity issues can be addressed through spacecraft and habitat design.

Void · 2024-04-06 10:07:14

From a human-centric point of view, I think the Moon can be upgraded. It has about as much sunlight as the Earth on average, a lower gravity, and is within a latency range that may allow human-Computer/robot interactions by telepresence and autonomous machinery on the Moon.

Para terraforming would come first. and perhaps later even more.

In the current circumstances, I think it makes more sense to think of Terraforming the Solar System than individual worlds.

The sun provides billion years energy, and robots may supply almost infinite labor, or if you like manipulation of objects.

If the robots kill us off, then it is not our problem anymore.
If the robots instead work with us, then it is only a matter of time for matter to be redistributed, to make places like the Moon more suitable to the desires of whatever sort of pattern replication, entities that may exist in the future.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-06 10:11:51)

Void · 2024-04-10 19:33:59

I think I posted this before, but it is of interest still: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo863_0SI_o
Quote:

How Close Are We To Self-Replicating Robots Conquering Space?
Fraser Cain
432K subscribers
Subsc

I think that an umbilical is needed and need not be shameful. The umbilical would be data transmissions, and interventions by entities not yet on the Moon. And I don't as much prohibit the import of materials to the Moon. This guy has suggested that Chlorine needs importation.

The proper conversation to describe this is parent-child, in my opinion.

We should not permit Mother-Daughter. There is a reason for that. It implies the worthlessness of males, which is a ploy devised to reduce the pay of males for their work. I see a lot of that in some European cultures. It is elitist thinking. There are noble men, all the females are potential princesses, (If the males on top substantiate that promotion), and all other males are below all of them.

It is contrary to a society that rewards merit. That is why I oppose that thinking.

While we have to get along with other cultures, I don't think we should continue to allow them to roll over us anymore.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-10 19:41:49)

Void · 2024-04-12 08:18:55

This is a bit interesting: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

Elon Musk just revealed New Starship Moonbase design!
YouTube
TECH MAP
3K views
4 weeks ago

I was watching another similar movie this morning but it mysteriously cut out mid stream.

I see some are saying that there will be at least 2 types of Lunar Starship.

Enough for now.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-12 08:22:18)

Void · 2024-04-12 12:30:02

Here is the video that I saw this morning but it dropped out before I viewed it completely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzcE_7eRsPA
Quote:

SpaceX reveals NEW Alpha Moonbase SHOCKED NASA! Musk declared...
ALPHA TECH
75.9K subscribers
Subscribe

I feel that the materials in this post which imply extensive nuclear capacity could be used to reduce the number of combustible propellants that would have to be used to move Starships to and from the Moon. https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p221686 Quote:

As it happens this video seems to address it: "The Angry Astronaut, A new, nuclear powered plan to put humans on Mars from NASA and Lockheed Maratin!"
Well, bing being how it is, the video does not show up yet. But here is something: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne … -ever.html
The Angry video mentions 3 products in development. (4 months to Mars).
1) Nuclear Thermal, probably with Hydrogen.
2) "Jetson", which is nuclear electric.
3) Nuclear power plants to land on the Moon.
So, that's pretty nice.
Jetson: https://www.space.com/space-nuclear-pow … propulsion.
So, if SpaceX can get some sort of Starship functional, the ability to lift propellants for these nuclear types of rockets would certainly be helpful.
Done

So, the blending of SpaceX and the nuclear capabilities mentioned in the quote, should reduce the amount of Methane and Oxygen that Starship would have to lift to LEO.

Also, if Oxygen and Argon could be had on the Moon, then this as well would reduce the number of propellants that would need to be lifted to LEO.

It looks rather good to me.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-12 12:37:35)

Void · 2024-04-14 12:49:56

This is encouraging:

Moon Base
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL-Whw3i2Tk
Quote:

NASA Stunned as SpaceX Unveils New Alpha Moonbase
Elon Musk ERA
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1.2K views 5 hours ago #starships #spacexstarship #spacexbocachica

I am encouraged as the video says that if water cannot be had on the Moon, it could be imported by Starship.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-14 12:51:47)

Void · 2024-04-18 08:05:46

This is from Isaac Arthur:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … ava_tubes/
Quote:

Go to IsaacArthur
r/IsaacArthur
•
59 min. ago
IsaacArthur
Living In Lava Tubes

I like his work, and agree that there could be a way to bring ice from beyond the asteroid belt. However much of the asteroid belt could have it as well.

I am not strongly eager to quickly start raising children on the Moon. I think that study pf short living animals may be needed first.
I think that in space studies if may well be possible to trick the human to retain bone and muscle, but that will be easier for full grown adults.

I think that study is likely to find out how the computations for the regulation of that in the human body may be discovered. That could be a primitive parts of the brain. It is possible that something like Neuralink might be able hack that calculator and override the signals from the body that tell the calculator what instructions to give for maintenance of bone and muscle and perhaps some other factors.

As for propulsions, I think Metha Lox is a good one, where Methane may come from other than the Moon and Oxygen come from the Moon.

I will wonder if a Moonship might be a bit like a space shuttle, with a Metha Lox core engine section and some side boosters that run on a paste of Liquid Oxygen and Aluminum powder.

Mass drivers might be involved down the line.

If a hack of the bone & muscle system could be done then the Moon becomes much more attractive, although centrifuges on the Moon may be sufficient for adults.

If you have robots, is it so silly to think that water and other chemicals could not be brought in from beyond Earth/Moon?

Consider a big tank of water taken from Ceres for instance, give it a power supply, and the ability to crack water into Hydrogen and Oxygen in flight the whole ways. Small engines, to burn that Hydrogen and Oxygen. Do you care if it takes 10 years to arrive from Ceres to the Moon? In addition to that if you have Lox and Aluminum, couldn't you have a booster from that to send the water rocket on its way faster?

But of course I like Cellulose, so the rocket might send that as a frozen material, to be hard landed to the Moon, using the shock absorbing nature of wood like structure to break its fall. As long as the drop did not chemically alter the cellulose by excessive velocity of impact, then it could be dropped during the lunar night, and collected before it might be damaged by daytime.

So, then if you can keep at least adults healthy on the Moon and would be able to bring these materials that the Moon lacks in, then the Moon looks like a reasonable investment, and a potential source of materials to export for the human and robotic efforts.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-18 08:22:42)

Void · 2024-04-18 09:58:21

In relation to the prior post, I have this:

Just a first guess. The sphere will be kept very cold normally but could tolerate some heating.

The device would have methods to thaw some ice to a vapor and then process it into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Then it would burn that in rocket engines. Very little storage of Oxygen and Hydrogen.

I imagine it could spiral in from its source, which could be the Dwarf Planet Ceres, or some asteroid or Callisto.

Using Mars/Phobos/Deimos as the source is not out of the question and may be the way to start...

You could give it some initial kick with a booster either Nuclear or Chemical.

You could have humans on board, but I favor robots. It should have some redundancy in critical parts such as engines and electrolysis units.

The solar panel can move inward or outward on a mast to adjust for the concentration of sunlight, using more or less of the mirror.

The mirror also serves as a solar shade so that the sphere of payload can be kept very cold.

So, these could travel to the Earth/Moon, or stony terrestrial crossing asteroids that tend to be stony.

Stony asteroids, so given this material could then be converted to make cycling spaceships, and also to deliver materials derived to places like terrestrial planetary orbits.

Venus could be supplied with various materials, to bootstrap it into its own production of materials like Nitrogen to export.

Solar driven propulsion could move materials outwards from the terrestrials to places that might have use of it.

Done

In the case where you want to bring these materials to the Moon, various options can exist from soft landing the derived materials, or slamming it hard into a dark crater, but not so hard that the materials are lost to vaporization.

I really think that bulk masses of most organic chemicals can come to the Moon this way, and of course to Earth/Moon orbits, and perhaps we can get Nitrogen from Venus.

Done

Based on the idea of a Solar Moth: https://isaacarthur.net/video/solar-mot … lar-sails/

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-18 10:23:21)

Void · 2024-04-19 10:53:32

I suppose that what I have spoken of in the previous post is not exactly a "Solar Moth". But it is a relative.

It is also possible that you could use some method to emit plasma of a material to do a similar thing.

But this seems to indicate to me that robotics is the key to the situation. If you could have a continuous stream of organic chemicals to arrive to the Earth/Moon, then you could have the key to the solar system. And robots could do that.

I think a member here indicated a notion to get fuels from Mars to use in the Earth/Moon situation, so it is not a new notion.

Supposing that no Hydrogen can be gotten from Phobos and Deimos, I don't think that it is farfetched to get it from Mars and then combine it will materials from Phobos, such as Oxygen and if available Carbon. So, all the makings for a delivery method can exist for a certain price.

Obviously, there is also going to be the asteroid belt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
Quote:

C-type (carbonaceous /ˌkɑːrbəˈneɪʃəs/) asteroids are the most common variety, forming around 75% of known asteroids.[1] They are volatile-rich and distinguished by a very low albedo because their composition includes a large amount of carbon, in addition to rocks and minerals. They have an average density of about 1.7 g/cm3.
They lie most often at the outer edge of the asteroid belt, 3.5 au (520 million km; 330 million mi) from the Sun, where 80% of the asteroids are of this type, whereas only 40% of asteroids at 2 au (300 million km; 190 million mi) from the Sun are C-type.[2] The proportion of C-types may actually be greater than this, since C-types are much darker (and hence less detectable) than most other asteroid types, except for D-types and others that lie mostly at the extreme outer edge of the asteroid belt.

I will happily settle for the 2-au region with 40% asteroids Carbonaceous. At this distance, I believe sunlight is 25% of what Earth normal without an atmosphere or nighttime.

From the just previous post:

In relation to the prior post, I have this:

I had not previously thought of it but Carbon itself could be very valuable on the Moon. I think that an Oxygen/CO propulsion system should work for the Moon, if it could work for Mars. You just need the Carbon.

So, I have to get on board with Isaac Arthur and say that the Moon could be a very big thing, knowing this.

If you had to pay human labor to move the material then, too expensive, as humans have financial needs.

But the sunlight to move the bulk materials, and the labor from sophisticated automation (Robots), is potentially near infinite.

The Moon is proximate to the Earth to the time latency is favorable.

Yes Mars, but also yes Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-19 11:11:43)

Void · 2024-04-19 11:43:35

Well, then outward you go, as you desire and need. The asteroid belt then the moons of Jupiter.

But if you start at the Moons of Jupiter with solar as your power source, then you probably want to boost the device to an orbit where it will find more sunlight. That is not impossible.

If you have nuclear, then you could make the chemicals to do a boost of that sort. And if you are mining the asteroid belt then you probably have the nuclear, as fission of fusion is not available.

Just for giggles, imagine a Super Heavy in the Jupiter system to toss things around.

In the Jupiter system we should find the organic chemicals the Moon and Earth orbits may desire. Perhaps light on Nitrogen, but Venus should be able to supply Nitrogen.

It is my impression that in the sun's gravity well, the further out you go, the easier it will be to "Kick" a payload into brighter sunlight where it could self-propel.

So, then the Saturn System. At that location you should have all the chemicals desired in bulk.

While some people are interested in comets, I would have a look at Centaurs.

But at some point, the needs of the inner worlds, will be saturated, probably before the need to go so far out.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-19 11:50:33)

Void · 2024-04-24 09:52:04

I have had some thoughts about Lunar Starship this morning. (It could also be called "Deep Space Starship" as per O.F.1939).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_HLS
Image Quote:

A bit of information on the interior: https://theaeroblog.com/predicting-the- … ry-vessel/
Image Quote:
Image Quote:

Some people have suggested a 3 stage Starship. I am sort of going in that direction.

The origin of my thinking was that if you cut the cargo compartment off of the ship, you would have the "Engine" section. What I wanted that for is to put prefab modules on top of the lift them to orbit. But then it also occurred to me that you could run the engine that way to bring Oxygen from the Moon up to orbit. Then it occurred to me that you could do something with the upper section.

You could build a "Mini-Ship" from the whole upper section, or you could cut the upper section in two pieces and make one of them into a ship and the other section use as housing on the Moon.

There are any number of engines smaller than a raptor that perhaps SpaceX could buy for this. Or they could have something themselves.

I guess if you were building prefab modules on the Moon, at that point you would not need the one piece to leave behind for shelter, but it might be useful anyway as it could have been prefabbed on Earth in a way that is not done on the Moon.

Anyway, it is the little ship that takes a lot of my interest. It could be Methalox, or some other propellant method, and it could be for Low Orbit<>Moon Surface, including humans.

In effect a Vacuum only Mini-Starship.

The engine section could be used to lift LOX to orbit, or to lift bulky cargos, such as prefab modules for use in orbits. The Moon not having atmosphere, it can be much larger than the fairings that were cut off.

There are some thoughts, about laying a starship on its side and covering it with regolith. That might be done at first, but if you got to the level of being able to manufacture prefab modules on the Moon to ship elsewhere, then you would not be doing that anymore.

A Jetson ship could carry fuel tanks back and forth from Earth orbits to Moon orbits. It might bring Methane out from Earth, or eventually somewhere else. Then when empty it could be filled with Oxygen from the Moon to take to Earth orbits.

Jetson is a Nuclear-Electric propulsion system to be developed:
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne … power.html
I don't know if they will use Argon, which is not the best propellant, but Argon is available on Earth and Mars, and possibly the Moon as well.

There is apparently thought of a Nuclear-Thermal rocket as well:
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/ne … -ever.html

Anyway, I could be pretty happy if they do these things.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-24 10:39:08)

Void · 2024-04-24 11:22:13

It occurs to me that for Lunar Starship, if it were desired the parts of the Lunar Starship could be made of materials lighter than Stainless Steel.

There are reasons why Starship and Super Heavy for LEO and Mars are of Stainless Steel, but for Lunar Starship you could use a lighter material, at least for a Mini-Starship component, as these parts will never aerobrake into an atmosphere.

I think that eventually innovations from other entities could be obtained if desired.

Rocket Lab supposedly has a rapid Carbon build process.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Rocket+La … 4B&pc=U531
Quote:

The Neutron's carbon composite structure will be made using an automated fiber placement system that can build meters of carbon rocket shell in minutes. This will enable rapid manufacturing along with reusability, making Neutron the world's first large carbon composite reusable launch vehicle.
Rocket Lab shows off its new reusable Neutron rocket, due for laun…
phys.org/news/2021-12-rocket-lab-reusable-neutron-due.pdf
phys.org/news/2021-12-rocket-lab-reusable-neutron-due.pdf

Yes, Stainless Steel is nice, for various reasons, but for parts of a Lunar Starship perhaps a lighter material may eventually be used.

Relativity Space has a very large 3D printer for instance.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

Done

So, the propellant vs. performance could be upgraded if part of all of Lunar Starships could eventually be made of lighter materials.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-24 11:36:57)

Void · 2024-04-25 11:35:42

My previous post should not be considered to be a criticism of the way Starship is built. They made some choices, and I think they were probably good. The task is enormous though, so it will take time for them to bring it to a working state of existence.

I think the idea of a Stainless-Steel Starship makes sense so that you don't have to have as much heat shielding. But for ships like Lunar Starship, which will never use aerobraking, eventually I think it would make sense to move in the direction of reducing the dry mass.

I like the idea of perhaps cutting the ship into pieces as well. The Engine Section would be the Raptors and the Main Propellant Tanks, and you might have the rest of the ship as one or two parts as well.

I also see the potential to make these "Deep Space" versions in a like manner, even for missions to Mars.

I like the idea of shipping these things from one planet to another using a Booster Kick to initiate the flight, from an orbit of a planet, and an electric process to finish the flight path to the target planet. I think that Nuclear of some sort would be good for these things, but chemicals derived from solar or nuclear may work for the Booster Kick.

But you would need a Transit Starship at Mars, that had a heat shield.

I think that this modifies the constraint that would have it necessary to launch all starships in a periodic window, of about 26 months, I beleive?

The broken ship notion may also allow spin gravity in a certain way.

I made this crude illustration to convey some potential methods:

I have not shown it but "Jetson" a nuclear electric propulsion system may be attached somewhere. The propellant tanks for Starship could be filled with Argon to some degree as the transit propellant.

The ship assembled for thrusting could get a Booster Kick perhaps from a nuclear thermal rocket in orbit of Earth/Mars, or Mars, depending on your direction of travel.

Then you would rig for electric propulsion. So, the crew compartment section (Arrow), will have proper orientation for the thrust and for the synthetic gravity modes. It is possible that after the ship has ascended from Earth it would never be filled with Methane and Oxygen again, so perhaps one of the tanks could be converted to another use.

As this ship also would not enter an atmosphere, it may be that some cargo would be carried on the outside of it.

These might be OK for trips to Asteroids, I would think.

Done

The "Arrow" portion could be made of lighter materials, and also it might have it's own propulsion system for landing on Asteroids.

It might make a good Moon Ship, if it had enough thrust available as well.

The lower section could be used to lift prefab modules from the surface of the Moon to orbits.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-04-25 18:23:28)

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