New Mars Forums

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,929

Website

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

So you want to talk about alternate history?

This isn't alternate history, this is real. This is now. Care to add these up?

List of United States military bases

Joint overseas

• Pine Gap Joint Defence Space Research Facility, Alice Springs, Northern Territory, Australia—used by United States armed forces, and CIA, in partnership with the Australian Defence Force and the Australian intelligence services.

• War Reserve Stocks are located in many nations.

United States Army
Overseas

Germany - 56 facilities
    Main article: List of United States Army installations in Germany

Israel
    The Dimona Radar Facility is an American-operated radar base in the Negev, staffed by 120 US military personnel.

Italy - 113 facilities
    Main article: List of United States Army installations in Italy

• Aviano Air Base

• Caserma Ederle, Vicenza

• Camp Darby, Pisa-Livorno

Japan - 84 facilities
    Main article: United States Forces Japan

• Camp Zama, Tokyo

• Fort Buckner, Okinawa

• Torii Station, Okinawa

Kosovo
    Main article: List of United States Army installations in Kosovo

Kuwait
    Main article: List of United States Army installations in Kuwait

South Korea
    Main articles: List of United States Army installations in South Korea and United States Forces Korea

United States Marine Corps
Overseas

Afghanistan

• Camp Eggers

• Camp Dwyer

• Camp Leatherneck

• Camp Rhino

• FOB Delhi

• FOB Delaram

• FOB Geronimo

• Firebase Fiddler's Green

• PB Jaker

Germany
    Camp Panzer Kaserne, Böblingen

Japan

• Marine Corps Base Camp Smedley D. Butler, Okinawa. Note: these camps are dispersed throughout Okinawa, but still under the administration of the MCB complex.

  • Camp Courtney

  • Camp Fuji, Shizuoka Prefecture

  • Camp Foster

  • Camp Gonsalves (Jungle Warfare Training Center)

  • Camp Hansen

  • Camp Kinser

  • Camp Lester

  • Camp McTureous

  • Camp Schwab

• Marine Corps Air Station Futenma, Okinawa

• Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni, Yamaguchi Prefecture

United States Navy
Overseas

Bahrain
    Naval Support Activity Bahrain

British Indian Ocean Territory
    Naval Support Facility Diego Garcia

Brazil
    São Paulo, Naval Support Detachment

Cuba
    Guantanamo Bay Naval Base

Djibouti
    Camp Lemonnier

Greece
    Naval Support Activity Souda Bay, Souda Bay, Crete

Israel
    The Port of Haifa maintains facilities for the United States Sixth Fleet.

Italy

• Naval Air Station Sigonella

• Naval Support Activity Gaeta

• Naval Support Activity Naples

  • NCTS Naples

Japan

• Naval Air Facility Atsugi

• Naval Forces Japan, Okinawa

• United States Fleet Activities Yokosuka

• United States Fleet Activities Sasebo

Kuwait
    Kuwait Naval Base

South Korea
    Commander Fleet Activities Chinhae

Spain
    Rota Naval Station

United Arab Emirates

• Fujairah Naval Base

• Port of Jebel Ali

United States Air Force
Overseas

Afghanistan

• Bagram Airfield

• Herat International Airport

• Jalalabad Airport

• Kabul International Airport

• Kandahar International Airport

• Mazar-i-Sharif Airport

• Shindand Air Base

Bahrain

• Bahrain International Airport

• Sheikh Isa Air Base

Germany

• Ansbach

• NATO Air Base Geilenkirchen, Geilenkirchen

• Ramstein Air Base

• Spangdahlem Air Base

• Wiesbaden

Denmark (Greenland)
    Thule Air Base

Honduras
    Soto Cano Air Base

Italy

• Aviano Air Base

• Camp Darby (Pisa-Livorno)

• Sigonella Naval Air Station

Japan

• Kadena Air Base, Okinawa Prefecture

• Misawa Air Base, Misawa, Aomori

• Yokota Air Base, Tokyo

Kuwait

• Ahmed Al Jaber Air Base

• Ali Al Salem Air Base

Oman

• Masirah Air Base

• Thumrait Air Base

Portugal
    Lajes Field, Azores

Qatar
    Al Udeid Air Base

Singapore
    Paya Lebar Air Base

South Korea

• Kunsan Air Base

• Osan Air Base

Spain
    Morón Air Base, Andalucia

Turkey
    Incirlik Air Base

United Arab Emirates
    Al Dhafra Air Base

United Kingdom

• RAF Alconbury, Huntingdonshire

• RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire

• RAF Lakenheath, Brandon, Suffolk

Antius

Member

From: Cumbria, UK

Registered: 2007-05-22

Posts: 1,003

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

So why do you cause it? You realize decline started when America tried to be an empire, ruling the world. When America focused on domestic economy, it grew and prospered.

You brag about this?

I don't think you know what "Christian" means. Quoting the King James Bible: Matthew 5:43-48

Most Christians don't realise that when Jesus said 'love thy neighbour' he was talking about other Jews.

 
And you do? If most Christians don't realize this, and Jesus didn't explain himself well, doesn't make a difference what he taught if most of the Christians got it wrong? Would you rather we did all become racial nationalists according to what you say is his teachings, or would you prefer that Christianity remain as it is, largely about Universal Brotherhood and peace?

His was a racial nationalist movement intended to expel foreign influences (specifically Roman-Greek in his day) from Judea.

And I thought that was Barabas. I have just this to ask, what makes you an authority on what Jesus really meant, if most of the Christians got it wrong? Are you two thousand years old? Did you know Jesus personally? So what if most Christians got it wrong, by now it doesn't make any difference any more, what Christianity has ended up as turned out to be tremendously successful, we colonized the New World when no one else did!. There are no Muslim countries in the Americas, this is a singular sign of Christianity's success, regardless of whether Jesus intended for it to be this way or not!

The luvvy-duvvy multiculturalism of modern Christianity started with Paul, a Romanised Jew who had never met Jesus and was at odds with his brother and surviving family in the Jerusalem church.  After the destruction of Jerusalem, there was no opposition to Pauls gentile Jesus cult and it provided a useful tool that could be developed into the binding ethos uniting the otherwise dissimilar peoples of the Roman empire.  What emerged from the council of Nicia had very little to do with the original Jesus, but it is easy to see why the Romans would have found it useful and why it ultimately went so far in what remained of the Roman provinces.

So are you going to argue with success? How come it was the Europeans colonizing the New World and not the Chinese and not the Muslims? And why for instance weren't the Indians from the New World colonizing Europe. We must have been doing something right to get to this point!

If you want to be a good Christian read the bible.  If you want to be close to Jesus, join a racial nationalist political party and fight against immigration.

 
No one has access to the original Jesus, not you, not anybody, maybe the Klu Klux Klan thinks Jesus is that way, but they are no more authoritative than the Peaceful mainstream Christians are. The racist Jesus, if he ever exists, has long been buried and forgotten, to be replaced by whatever mainstream Christians think he was all about.

The Christian religion as it stands today radiates weakness and submission and surrender in the face of invasion.

That would be guilty white liberals. The Christian Religion is strong and flexible, the only thing slowing them down are the atheists and doubters who want to boost nonwestern culture at the expense of modern western values. Most Westerners are lousy Christians, they fight why the more devote among them surrender and submit, and their enemies kill them off, while the ones that are left are the ones who fight to defend themselves. Loving your enemy never made much sense to me.

No doubt that served Roman interests 1800 years ago, but Im inclined to think it doesnt serve us well today and it isnt anything that the historical Jesus would have identified with.

 

What was wrong with the Romans, they practiced tolerance and had many religions thriving in their Empire, all they cared about was whether they paid taxes. Why do you think they were so accommodating of the Pharisees? When the Pharisees pressured Pilate to kill Jesus, why did he listen to him? Pagan law says nothing about Jesus claiming to be a demigod. Roman religion had a lot of stories about Demigods, children where one parent was a god and the other was human, so Jesus, as he claimed was just one more as far as the Romans were concerned. So why would Pilate be concerned about what the Pharasees were concerned about, Pilate wasn't a Jew! He didn't believe in one God!

His was a simpe philosophy: love your own people, treat them as family, stand united.  When it came to foreigners Jesus followed Mosaic law and Talmudic tradition and these sources really couldnt be clearer: Make no covenant with them, make no quarter for them, drive them out of your land.

Then why did he tell the tale of the Good Samaritan? The Samaritan was an outsider, why did he heal the ear of the Roman Soldier?

I recommend you read 'James the Brother of Jesus' by Robert Eisenman.  This draws on a number of historic sources, including the dead sea scrolls, to reconstruct the life of James the Just, none other than Jesus' brother.  James assumed leadership of the disciples and early Christian church after his brothers' death and continued to lead the Judean christian movement for over 30 years before being stoned to death in 66AD.  Whilst it is difficult to trace much direct information on the historical Jesus, there is much more to go on when reconstructing the historical James.  The figure that emerges is xenophobic, dismissive of foreign influence generally and completely zealous for Mosaic law.

It is worth remembering that all of what is written in the modern bible was penned a long time after Jesus death by people that never knew him and in many cases Gentiles.  But there is a revealing passage in the Gospel of Mark where Jesus meets a Caananite woman.  Do you remember how it goes?  The story of the good Samaritan would have been interpreted differently by Judean audiences of the time.  Samaritans were considered to be unclean Jewish people by Judeans of that time because they refused to respect the Jewish temple.  Judeans of that time would have wanted nothing to do with them.  A story that depicts a Samaritan helping a poor man and a Levite priest passing on the other side of the road is in fact a dig at the Levites, a way of saying that even a lowly Samaritan is more of a freind to you than the scumbag Levites (who were of course in the pocket of the Romans).

Personally, I am not critical of the idea of following Jesus.  I just think the message of the real man is far more pertinant to modern Europeans than the fictitious character who has taken his place.  And we are in a good position now to understand what the real Jesus was really like.  He was a nationalist freedom fighter, fighting foreign oppression, foreign colonisation and a corrupt unpatriotic government.  Sounds like the situation many countries in Europe are in with the Muslim invasion and weak and corrupt left-leaning governments in the pocket of a Brussels bureaucracy.  If you are a nationalist fighting these things, you are far closer to who Jesus really was than if you are a pro-immigrant lefty, an enemy of Western civilisation.

Like I say, I have no problem with Christianity.  I just want to get back to real Christianity rather than the fake Romanised version which is the only one we were left with after the fall of Jerusalem.

Last edited by Antius (2016-05-01 16:11:42)

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,929

Website

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

If that's your attitude, then don't be Caesar. Stop trying to occupy the world.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

So you want to talk about alternate history?

This isn't alternate history, this is real. This is now. Care to add these up?

List of United States military bases

Joint overseas

• Pine Gap Joint Defence Space Research Facility, Alice Springs, Northern Territory, Australia—used by United States armed forces, and CIA, in partnership with the Australian Defence Force and the Australian intelligence services.

• War Reserve Stocks are located in many nations.

United States Army
Overseas

Germany - 56 facilities
    Main article: List of United States Army installations in Germany

Israel
    The Dimona Radar Facility is an American-operated radar base in the Negev, staffed by 120 US military personnel.

Italy - 113 facilities
    Main article: List of United States Army installations in Italy

• Aviano Air Base

• Caserma Ederle, Vicenza

• Camp Darby, Pisa-Livorno

Japan - 84 facilities
    Main article: United States Forces Japan

• Camp Zama, Tokyo

• Fort Buckner, Okinawa

• Torii Station, Okinawa

Kosovo
    Main article: List of United States Army installations in Kosovo

Kuwait
    Main article: List of United States Army installations in Kuwait

South Korea
    Main articles: List of United States Army installations in South Korea and United States Forces Korea

United States Marine Corps
Overseas

Afghanistan

• Camp Eggers

• Camp Dwyer

• Camp Leatherneck

• Camp Rhino

• FOB Delhi

• FOB Delaram

• FOB Geronimo

• Firebase Fiddler's Green

• PB Jaker

Germany
    Camp Panzer Kaserne, Böblingen

Japan

• Marine Corps Base Camp Smedley D. Butler, Okinawa. Note: these camps are dispersed throughout Okinawa, but still under the administration of the MCB complex.

  • Camp Courtney

  • Camp Fuji, Shizuoka Prefecture

  • Camp Foster

  • Camp Gonsalves (Jungle Warfare Training Center)

  • Camp Hansen

  • Camp Kinser

  • Camp Lester

  • Camp McTureous

  • Camp Schwab

• Marine Corps Air Station Futenma, Okinawa

• Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni, Yamaguchi Prefecture

United States Navy
Overseas

Bahrain
    Naval Support Activity Bahrain

British Indian Ocean Territory
    Naval Support Facility Diego Garcia

Brazil
    São Paulo, Naval Support Detachment

Cuba
    Guantanamo Bay Naval Base

Djibouti
    Camp Lemonnier

Greece
    Naval Support Activity Souda Bay, Souda Bay, Crete

Israel
    The Port of Haifa maintains facilities for the United States Sixth Fleet.

Italy

• Naval Air Station Sigonella

• Naval Support Activity Gaeta

• Naval Support Activity Naples

  • NCTS Naples

Japan

• Naval Air Facility Atsugi

• Naval Forces Japan, Okinawa

• United States Fleet Activities Yokosuka

• United States Fleet Activities Sasebo

Kuwait
    Kuwait Naval Base

South Korea
    Commander Fleet Activities Chinhae

Spain
    Rota Naval Station

United Arab Emirates

• Fujairah Naval Base

• Port of Jebel Ali

United States Air Force
Overseas

Afghanistan

• Bagram Airfield

• Herat International Airport

• Jalalabad Airport

• Kabul International Airport

• Kandahar International Airport

• Mazar-i-Sharif Airport

• Shindand Air Base

Bahrain

• Bahrain International Airport

• Sheikh Isa Air Base

Germany

• Ansbach

• NATO Air Base Geilenkirchen, Geilenkirchen

• Ramstein Air Base

• Spangdahlem Air Base

• Wiesbaden

Denmark (Greenland)
    Thule Air Base

Honduras
    Soto Cano Air Base

Italy

• Aviano Air Base

• Camp Darby (Pisa-Livorno)

• Sigonella Naval Air Station

Japan

• Kadena Air Base, Okinawa Prefecture

• Misawa Air Base, Misawa, Aomori

• Yokota Air Base, Tokyo

Kuwait

• Ahmed Al Jaber Air Base

• Ali Al Salem Air Base

Oman

• Masirah Air Base

• Thumrait Air Base

Portugal
    Lajes Field, Azores

Qatar
    Al Udeid Air Base

Singapore
    Paya Lebar Air Base

South Korea

• Kunsan Air Base

• Osan Air Base

Spain
    Morón Air Base, Andalucia

Turkey
    Incirlik Air Base

United Arab Emirates
    Al Dhafra Air Base

United Kingdom

• RAF Alconbury, Huntingdonshire

• RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire

• RAF Lakenheath, Brandon, Suffolk

Military bases overseas don't equal an empire, in fact their purpose is the opposite, it is to prevent some other country from building an empire out of these countries where these bases are located. I would be fully in favor of building a US base in Poland to prevent Poland from once again being absorbed into the Russian Empire, which by the way, you don't seem to have any problem with existing. Russia, unlike the US is a real empire, it is the Empire of Muscovy, it includes many nationalities such as the Chechens for example. US policy has for example, been to stand in the way of Russia reabsorbing Ukraine into its Empire.

Another difference is that Russia exacts tribute, the US does not from the countries its bases are in, instead it pays rent! All these countries have agreed to host these US bases, these bases make it easier for the US to help them should the host country get in trouble by another country that wants to invade them. This is especially True of South Korea! You know how brutal North Korea is! South Korea has no nuclear weapons, and North Korea does. A US presence prevents North Korea from nuking Seoul without worries of nuclear retaliation from the United States. Because of the US base there, the South Koreans stay free, it is not there to exact tribute from them for an American Empire!

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Most Christians don't realise that when Jesus said 'love thy neighbour' he was talking about other Jews.

 
And you do? If most Christians don't realize this, and Jesus didn't explain himself well, doesn't make a difference what he taught if most of the Christians got it wrong? Would you rather we did all become racial nationalists according to what you say is his teachings, or would you prefer that Christianity remain as it is, largely about Universal Brotherhood and peace?

His was a racial nationalist movement intended to expel foreign influences (specifically Roman-Greek in his day) from Judea.

And I thought that was Barabas. I have just this to ask, what makes you an authority on what Jesus really meant, if most of the Christians got it wrong? Are you two thousand years old? Did you know Jesus personally? So what if most Christians got it wrong, by now it doesn't make any difference any more, what Christianity has ended up as turned out to be tremendously successful, we colonized the New World when no one else did!. There are no Muslim countries in the Americas, this is a singular sign of Christianity's success, regardless of whether Jesus intended for it to be this way or not!

The luvvy-duvvy multiculturalism of modern Christianity started with Paul, a Romanised Jew who had never met Jesus and was at odds with his brother and surviving family in the Jerusalem church.  After the destruction of Jerusalem, there was no opposition to Pauls gentile Jesus cult and it provided a useful tool that could be developed into the binding ethos uniting the otherwise dissimilar peoples of the Roman empire.  What emerged from the council of Nicia had very little to do with the original Jesus, but it is easy to see why the Romans would have found it useful and why it ultimately went so far in what remained of the Roman provinces.

So are you going to argue with success? How come it was the Europeans colonizing the New World and not the Chinese and not the Muslims? And why for instance weren't the Indians from the New World colonizing Europe. We must have been doing something right to get to this point!

If you want to be a good Christian read the bible.  If you want to be close to Jesus, join a racial nationalist political party and fight against immigration.

 
No one has access to the original Jesus, not you, not anybody, maybe the Klu Klux Klan thinks Jesus is that way, but they are no more authoritative than the Peaceful mainstream Christians are. The racist Jesus, if he ever exists, has long been buried and forgotten, to be replaced by whatever mainstream Christians think he was all about.

The Christian religion as it stands today radiates weakness and submission and surrender in the face of invasion.

That would be guilty white liberals. The Christian Religion is strong and flexible, the only thing slowing them down are the atheists and doubters who want to boost nonwestern culture at the expense of modern western values. Most Westerners are lousy Christians, they fight why the more devote among them surrender and submit, and their enemies kill them off, while the ones that are left are the ones who fight to defend themselves. Loving your enemy never made much sense to me.

No doubt that served Roman interests 1800 years ago, but Im inclined to think it doesnt serve us well today and it isnt anything that the historical Jesus would have identified with.

 

What was wrong with the Romans, they practiced tolerance and had many religions thriving in their Empire, all they cared about was whether they paid taxes. Why do you think they were so accommodating of the Pharisees? When the Pharisees pressured Pilate to kill Jesus, why did he listen to him? Pagan law says nothing about Jesus claiming to be a demigod. Roman religion had a lot of stories about Demigods, children where one parent was a god and the other was human, so Jesus, as he claimed was just one more as far as the Romans were concerned. So why would Pilate be concerned about what the Pharasees were concerned about, Pilate wasn't a Jew! He didn't believe in one God!

His was a simpe philosophy: love your own people, treat them as family, stand united.  When it came to foreigners Jesus followed Mosaic law and Talmudic tradition and these sources really couldnt be clearer: Make no covenant with them, make no quarter for them, drive them out of your land.

Then why did he tell the tale of the Good Samaritan? The Samaritan was an outsider, why did he heal the ear of the Roman Soldier?

I recommend you read 'James the Brother of Jesus' by Robert Eisenman.  This draws on a number of historic sources, including the dead sea scrolls, to reconstruct the life of James the Just, none other than Jesus' brother.  James assumed leadership of the disciples and early Christian church after his brothers' death and continued to lead the Judean christian movement for over 30 years before being stoned to death in 66AD.  Whilst it is difficult to trace much direct information on the historical Jesus, there is much more to go on when reconstructing the historical James.  The figure that emerges is xenophobic, dismissive of foreign influence generally and completely zealous for Mosaic law.

It is worth remembering that all of what is written in the modern bible was penned a long time after Jesus death by people that never knew him and in many cases Gentiles.  But there is a revealing passage in the Gospel of Mark where Jesus meets a Caananite woman.  Do you remember how it goes?  The story of the good Samaritan would have been interpreted differently by Judean audiences of the time.  Samaritans were considered to be unclean Jewish people by Judeans of that time because they refused to respect the Jewish temple.  Judeans of that time would have wanted nothing to do with them.  A story that depicts a Samaritan helping a poor man and a Levite priest passing on the other side of the road is in fact a dig at the Levites, a way of saying that even a lowly Samaritan is more of a freind to you than the scumbag Levites (who were of course in the pocket of the Romans).

Personally, I am not critical of the idea of following Jesus.  I just think the message of the real man is far more pertinant to modern Europeans than the fictitious character who has taken his place.  And we are in a good position now to understand what the real Jesus was really like.  He was a nationalist freedom fighter, fighting foreign oppression, foreign colonisation and a corrupt unpatriotic government.  Sounds like the situation many countries in Europe are in with the Muslim invasion and weak and corrupt left-leaning governments in the pocket of a Brussels bureaucracy.  If you are a nationalist fighting these things, you are far closer to who Jesus really was than if you are a pro-immigrant lefty, an enemy of Western civilisation.

Like I say, I have no problem with Christianity.  I just want to get back to real Christianity rather than the fake Romanised version which is the only one we were left with after the fall of Jerusalem.

If you assume Jesus was the Son of God, and he really was this hateful bigot that you claim he was, don't you think he would use his divine influence to completely wipe out the Roman Empire, and every man, woman, and child in it? A god that was nationalistic would make sure only Jews would survive and everyone else would be dead! That is if you accept Jesus' divinity. If you don't, what does it matter what the actual historical Jesus believed in, if he was so petty as you believe him to be, isn't the fictional Jesus that the Romans made up so much better? If one was to worship a fake Messiah wouldn't it be better to worship one made of whole cloth who's character serves the purpose of the overall mission of Christianity, than to worship some petty human who hated Romans?

I don't think a Jesus as "Yassir Arafat" would be a good role model to follow, I'd rather have the Jesus taught in the Bible, than one so petty as you describe. If the actual Jesus was that, I'd rather stick with the Western Roman Biblical version of him, seems to have served Western Civilization well. While a Yassir Arafat type would only create a lot of fanatics willing to blow themselves up and create misery for their own people.
I have no use for fanatics, they are nonwestern as far as I'm concerned, it is things like that which keep the Third World poor in my humble opinion!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-05-01 22:01:44)

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

If that's your attitude, then don't be Caesar. Stop trying to occupy the world.

You remind me of a boxer all by himself in a boxing ring, who is pretending to be pummeled by an imaginary opponent. If the United States wanted to be "Caesar" it would have conquered the World by now, starting with Canada! Now Canada is a free and independent country. Remember that Canada has fewer people than Poland, and Poland was the first victim of Nazi Germany in World War II. Now doesn't it stand to reason that if Nazi Germany could take Poland in a month, then the United States could do the same to Canada if it so desired? Yet Canada remains an independent country, it does what it likes. The US isn't giving it orders! There is no Caesar here! Now how about we talk about the real world for a change?

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,929

Website

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Another difference is that Russia exacts tribute, the US does not from the countries its bases are in, instead it pays rent!

Donald Trump would change that.
New York Post: Trump says allies must start paying for ‘American protection’

Donald Trump wants US allies to ante up if they want to continue under the “cloak of American protection,” according to his first detailed comments on his foreign-policy platform.

“We’re not being reimbursed for the kind of tremendous service that we’re performing by protecting various countries,” the Republican front-runner was quoted as saying.

Trump said he would boycott oil from Saudi Arabia and other allies ­unless they provide troops or funds to fight ISIS.

“If Saudi Arabia was without the cloak of American protection . . . I don’t think it would be around,” he told The New York Times.

Trump is open to removing US forces from Japan and South Korea if they did not take on the cost of housing and feeding troops on American bases there, the report said.

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,929

Website

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Tom, do you really not get it? Al Qaeda is doing all that to get America out of their country. They won't take orders from Russia, or America, or anyone else. Covert Ops assassinated leaders in their country when they refused to obey orders and tried to get America out. The fight with Al Qaeda escalated for years under Clinton, until finally they realized they had to hit back, not just fight within their country. That's what that is all about.

Now ISIS. They targeted Europe after European forces fought against them in Syria and Iraq. I don't like ISIS either, but they're fighting a revolutionary war in their country. Mess with them, they'll fight back. Furthermore, ISIS in Syria is a symptom. Assad's forces are fighting rebels, and they're focusing on cities. They neglected rural areas to focus on cities. ISIS took control of areas the other two neglected. If the revolution wasn't happening, government forces of Syria could take out ISIS easily. And Syria is broken into 4 pieces, the 4th is controlled by a branch of Al Qaeda. So if you could take out ISIS directly, without resolving the revolution, then neither government forces nor the rebels would control that territory. Al Qaeda would take over. Imagine Al Qaeda with access to those resources; do you think they would be any better?

The US is backing the rebels. The revolution has become a giant mess. There are reports Saudi Arabia is funding ISIS because they're Sunni, while Iran is funding Shi'a Islam fighters. Russia send their military, Putin claimed it was to fight ISIS, but media reports were Russians targeted US backed rebels, not ISIS. Peshmerga are Kurds of northern Iraq, they've been asked to help fight ISIS, and NATO has provided them assistance. However, when Turkey got involved, they equally bombed ISIS and PKK. The PKK are Kurds in Turkey who want to separate. America vs Russia, Saudia Arabia vs Iran, Turkey vs Kurds. Syria has become a proxy for all three conflicts. It's a mess. Citizens of Syria are dying as innocent casualties. With Russia supporting America's opponent and directly fighting America's allies, and with allies either supporting America's opponents or directly fighting against America's interests, do you really think you can win?

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Another difference is that Russia exacts tribute, the US does not from the countries its bases are in, instead it pays rent!

Donald Trump would change that.
New York Post: Trump says allies must start paying for ‘American protection’

Donald Trump wants US allies to ante up if they want to continue under the “cloak of American protection,” according to his first detailed comments on his foreign-policy platform.

“We’re not being reimbursed for the kind of tremendous service that we’re performing by protecting various countries,” the Republican front-runner was quoted as saying.

Trump said he would boycott oil from Saudi Arabia and other allies ­unless they provide troops or funds to fight ISIS.

“If Saudi Arabia was without the cloak of American protection . . . I don’t think it would be around,” he told The New York Times.

Trump is open to removing US forces from Japan and South Korea if they did not take on the cost of housing and feeding troops on American bases there, the report said.

A true Empire wouldn't say, "Pay up or were leaving!" You know if the British said that in 1776, that would have made the American Revolution very easy! We would say, "We refuse to pay your tax in tea!" The British say, "Okay, in that case we're leaving! Come along you Red Coats, we're going back home!" This is basically what Donald Trump threatens to do, that is not Imperialism, it is simply payment for service, and if we don't get paid, we remove our troops and equipment and bring them home. If the other country says, "Oh no, don't do that?" then they actually want to be in this alliance, because they benefit from having US troops there, this is not imperialism, imperialism is what the British actually tried to do when the attempted to crush the American rebellion, that is Imperialism! Empires don't give its subjects a choice, they don't say, "Either pay your taxes or we're kicking you out!" They say, "Pay your taxes or were sending you to prison!" That is what Empires do! Also Russia has a Czar and the US has a President, the Czar has been in office since the year 2000, while our current President has only been in office since 2009, and I'll bet Putin will still be in office when our next President is sworn into office. So are you going to be fooled by Russia's "Federation" label, or are you going to look at reality and observe that Russia is an Empire and we are not?

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Tom, do you really not get it? Al Qaeda is doing all that to get America out of their country. They won't take orders from Russia, or America, or anyone else. Covert Ops assassinated leaders in their country when they refused to obey orders and tried to get America out. The fight with Al Qaeda escalated for years under Clinton, until finally they realized they had to hit back, not just fight within their country. That's what that is all about.

Al Qaeda is a non-state actor, they don't have a country, and no one elected them to anything, so they represent no one!

Now ISIS. They targeted Europe after European forces fought against them in Syria and Iraq. I don't like ISIS either, but they're fighting a revolutionary war in their country.

Nothing very revolutionary about an old style theocracy modeled after the seventh century! I might also add that Hitler was also fighting for his Revolution, and ISIS wants a World Wide Caliphate, so I don't see how we can mind our own business if their plans include us! If they're planning a World Wide Islamic Revolution, we have no choice but to stop them, just as we did with Communism. The Communists weren't minding their own business! One of the reasons we were in Vietnam was to stop the Communists from spreading their revolution to other parts of the globe. If the Russians kept their Communism in Russia, we wouldn't have a problem with them, but they didn't!

Mess with them, they'll fight back.

They are messing with us, that is the problem!

Furthermore, ISIS in Syria is a symptom. Assad's forces are fighting rebels, and they're focusing on cities. They neglected rural areas to focus on cities. ISIS took control of areas the other two neglected. If the revolution wasn't happening, government forces of Syria could take out ISIS easily. And Syria is broken into 4 pieces, the 4th is controlled by a branch of Al Qaeda. So if you could take out ISIS directly, without resolving the revolution, then neither government forces nor the rebels would control that territory.

So you are saying the US should send its troops in and impose order on the country? I think if we send in troops, we should take that territory. Why should we sacrifice troops for some dictator and leave a dictator in place? The Syrians have shown they can't govern themselves and maintain peace with their neighbors. If we are going to get involved, we should take over Syria and eradicate ISIS ourselves, and then we get to keep the territory for our trouble! Does that sound fair enough to you?

Al Qaeda would take over. Imagine Al Qaeda with access to those resources; do you think they would be any better?

What resources? Syria has been bombed to Hell, and with Al Qaeda in charge, it will only get bombed  further. Now if the Syrians love warfare and they like dying in battle, they will support Al Qaeda or ISIS, because that is all they are going to get!

The US is backing the rebels. The revolution has become a giant mess. There are reports Saudi Arabia is funding ISIS because they're Sunni,

I guess that does not describe their disposition, it is not very Sunni at all! And the other ones, the Shiites, that sounds like something they do when they go to the bathroom!

while Iran is funding Shi'a Islam fighters. Russia send their military, Putin claimed it was to fight ISIS, but media reports were Russians targeted US backed rebels, not ISIS.

That is typical Russian behavior, they are always in it for themselves, how do you think they got Kaliningrad after all? That was nothing but World War II War Booty. Russia went into World War II with the desire to gain new territory and they did!

Peshmerga are Kurds of northern Iraq, they've been asked to help fight ISIS, and NATO has provided them assistance. However, when Turkey got involved, they equally bombed ISIS and PKK. The PKK are Kurds in Turkey who want to separate. America vs Russia,

Only because the Russians are behaving badly! It is an Empire that is trying to expand!

Saudia Arabia vs Iran, Turkey vs Kurds. Syria has become a proxy for all three conflicts. It's a mess. Citizens of Syria are dying as innocent casualties.

Many are not so innocent, ISIS wouldn't have taken over large swaths of their territory without the locals support, so the locals let ISIS in, and as a result they get bombed by the Allies! What did they expect would happen? Did they think that ISIS would bring peace?

With Russia supporting America's opponent and directly fighting America's allies, and with allies either supporting America's opponents or directly fighting against America's interests, do you really think you can win?

Yes, we kill off all of the enemy, and they are dead, so they don't bother us again! As Trump said, we have to eliminate the perception that they are winning, if they want to try and impose a World wide Islamic State, we are going to kill them in large numbers until they stop or are stopped! if America is "Rome" then ISIS is "Carthage" and you know what happened to Carthage don't you? The question we ask of the Islamic Terrorists is "Do you want to be Carthage? If you give us no choice, we will destroy you, just as the Romans destroyed Carthage for their own protection. You can quit now and avoid this fate!"
I am sick and tired of this war, and the war only ends when we destroy the Enemy! There is no negotiating with them, they want a World Wide Caliphate after all, and that includes us! It is not the sort of war we can walk away from!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-05-02 07:40:18)

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,929

Website

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Tom: the Middle East is not American territory. You keep claiming that America does not take territory, yet your country is fighting against the people who live there just to ensure your country rules them. America is an empire, you treat Iraq as a territory, and now fighting to capture Syria.

There are reports that Saudi Arabia provided much of the money to establish ISIS. They wanted a Sunni Islam organization to counter the Shi'a Islams supported by the United States. Saudi Arabia is an ally of the US, and 3rd largest military budget after US and China, yet they provided money to found ISIS, and founders of Al Qaeda came from Saudi Arabia as well. Think about it.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Tom: the Middle East is not American territory. You keep claiming that America does not take territory, yet your country is fighting against the people who live there just to ensure your country rules them.

9/11 was not in the middle east! if those people did not want us there, they shouldn't have attacked us on 9/11 and murdered 3000 civilians. The reason we are there and the only reason is to ensure that it does not happen again, and Obama is only doing the minimum!

America is an empire, you treat Iraq as a territory, and now fighting to capture Syria.

Excuse me, but who is this person? Why is she on your Canadian money, she is officially your Empress Queen Elizabeth II of the British Empire, is she not? If you don't want Canada to be part of the British Empire, then why don't you join the American Revolution. You see, unlike you, we don't have an Emperor or a Queen. So you should talk about Empires! It isn't that she is not a nice person, bt that is besides the point. An Empire is an Empire! Yours has an Empress, mine does not, its a Republic, not a constitutional monarchy but a Republic!

There are reports that Saudi Arabia provided much of the money to establish ISIS. They wanted a Sunni Islam organization to counter the Shi'a Islams supported by the United States. Saudi Arabia is an ally of the US, and 3rd largest military budget after US and China, yet they provided money to found ISIS, and founders of Al Qaeda came from Saudi Arabia as well. Think about it.

Well Barack Obama has always been partial to Muslims, and whether they have Sunni dispositions or go to the bathroom and Shiite, makes no difference to me! Maybe Obama appreciates the differences, but I don't, and when Obama is gone, to the next President, a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim and it makes not difference to use whether they are Shiite or Sunni, if they attack Americans, they are the Enemy, and we will get rid of them! Trump for instance wants to ban all Muslims from coming into the United States to do their dirty work, he didn't say Shiite or Sunni, he said all Muslims, and both groups have by the way attacked Americans, so I don't see why the differences between those subgroups while they fight each other and kill Americans in between, should make a difference to us! probably TRUMP IS DOING SO WELL, BECAUSE WE ARE ALL SICK OF IT! So no, we aren't going to all surrender like you suggest, just the opposite in fact!

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,929

Website

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Tom: you're wrong on everything. I'm not even going to read this. STFU

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Tom: you're wrong on everything. I'm not even going to read this. STFU

That is what you say when you lose the argument. Canada is just as big as the United States land wise, and for a long time it was part of the British Empire, that was what all those colonists fleeing the American 13 colonies to New Brunswick were doing, they wanted to stay in the British Empire, they were Imperialists in fact and proud of it too! You on the other hand are trying to redefine the American Republic as an "Empire", you have a real loose definition of "Empire" to make it fit. For you an Empire is anywhere you keep a base that is not on US soil. That is a very loose definition of Empire, that I'm sure many past Emperors and Empresses would not agree with.

clark

Member

Registered: 2001-09-20

Posts: 6,374

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

Tommy. I love you. I want to hug you and Canada and United States and New Brunswick. I want to be home. Can you make me home? I went to the Banana Republic and could not afford the pants. Is that the Empire's fault? I was sad when their Death Star was destroyed. Damn you Rebel terrorists scum! I am glad Kylo Ren found new base. Tommy. I love you. Make you my friend, okay? Maybe I take you to my next Friends Of Muslim service? You don't have to pray. Maybe we talk about cars? Maybe you and me be best friends? I love you Tommy!

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

an old topic maybe worth a bump

Bases, experiments, mining: the race to protect the surface of the moon
https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 … f-the-moon

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: What if NASA continued its Apollo Program?

would they still be stuck with the same old Moon spacesuit design, not useful for Mars?

The cost of an economy retracting, the costs of Vietnam, the costs of other programs made sure something was scaled back. Sure they could have launched a single flag planting mission every four years, you could have collected new Lunar rocks for science, you would still have Heavy Lift but expensive maybe there would be less focus on Shuttle, MIR, Skylab, the ISS

a coming era would have been any different? Watergate, Jimmy Carter and the Iran hostage crisis, The Franklin scandal homosexual callboy cover-up Irangate and StarWars and drugs and Contras, US Debt, new Liberalism neo Conservatism the death penalty, the Fall of the USSR, the Petro Dollar, the EU, Shipping and Globalism, companies and banks and groups representing internationalism, the growth of China, the LA Riots, Monica Lewinsky and Kosovo and Albania, the stagnation of Japan, 911 and the Saudi backed terror, Obama, Trump, Biden, would it change how Russians voted would they have voted for a nice politics man or another KGB guy or a militarist imperialist, the economic block known as BRICS would it exist or not if you changed the timeline, would Musk have moved from South Africa to Canada to the USA built Paypall and would SpaceX have grown.

chaos theory, the butterfly effect?

Third test flight of SpaceX's mega rocket ends with loss of spacecraft

https://www.nwitimes.com/news/nation-wo … a9571.html

United Steelworkers union endorses Biden, giving him more labor support in presidential race

https://www.stltoday.com/news/nation-wo … 0891e.html

Trump says Jews who vote for Democrats 'hate Israel' and their religion

https://statesville.com/news/nation-wor … 69af3.html