Booze

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-11 06:38:22

For Beerman re #149

Thanks for keeping the flow going in this topic.

It is possible you are not familiar with the atmosphere recommendation that is generally accepted by members of this forum.

I bring this up because you mentioned a ? vacuum ? at the top of a brewing vessel.

The best resource for the atmosphere recommendation is RobertDyck, but I'll offer a simple rule of thumb: 3 - 5 - 8

3 parts Oxygen 5 parts inert gas 8 PSI (ie, 1/2 of Earth normal atmospheric pressure but the same Oxygen component (partial pressure)

I would be ** really ** interested in how this Mars Habitat atmosphere recommendation would mesh/blend with your vision of how a brewing operation would occur on Mars.

There are places on Earth where the atmospheric pressure is 8 PSI. For example, one of the base camps on Mount Everest meets that specification.

To simulate a Mars recommended atmosphere there, the oxygen level would be increased to match the 3 - 5 - 8 ratio.

A brewing operation could thus be carried out on Earth under the atmosphere conditions recommended for Mars habitats.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-11 10:00:34

Virtual artificial highs are coming?

An artificial neuron that can receive and release dopamine
https://techxplore.com/news/2022-08-art … amine.html

SpaceNut · 2022-08-11 19:48:12

Low pressure while brewing removes the airs oxidizing effects from the beer which would change the flavor and it also reduces the amount of heat required in the initial processes.

Ok so kegs are light mass once empty and can be chilled for serving with no issues, but can we sustain the amount for a large ship's intake from a small brewery that we would have onboard the large ship with a crew of passengers totaling 1,000.

It would a good fit to work out all of the mass to pull this off to add to the payload manifests required as well as for the power requirements plus total volume of space required to manufacture the tastiest of brews.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-11 20:13:16

for BeerMan and SpaceNut ....

Since I have no idea about this, please forgive the question ....

Is there a reason to ??? have ??? oxygen in the air in a brewery on Mars? There may well be.

The air on board Large Ship (any of them) is "manufactured", and the same will be true in the habitats.

We don't think about this on Earth. Here we just take the atmosphere for granted.

Does a brewery ** require ** a full 15 psi?

Has anyone done any research on this?

Per Google:

what gases does yeast produce in making beer
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In a healthy environment (warm, wet, access to sugars), yeast will break down hydrocarbons. This generates gases (which help expand bread and provide dissolved gases in beer) and ethanol (used for creation of beer and liquor).
What gas do yeasts create during fermentation? - Study.com https://study.com › academy › answer › what-gas-do-yeas...

I asked Google about pressure for making beer, and got answers from 5 psi to 20 psi...

For lagers, a regulator set between 10 and 14 psi works best. Continental and light pilsners require slightly higher CO2 regulator settings, from 11 to 16 psi. Wheat beers, Belgian beers, and common American sours are generally the most carbonated beers, requiring about 15 to 20 psi.Mar 17, 2021
Determining the Right Pressure for Your Draft Beer System ...https://content.kegworks.com › Blog
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What is Pressure Fermentation? [2022 Guide] - Bison Brewhttps://bisonbrew.com › Homebrewing
Apr 11, 2022 — When using a new yeast, always start on the low side. 5 PSI is a great starting point, but pressure fermentation can produce great results all ...

BeerMan ... back to you !!!

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-08-11 20:28:11

The small level brewery is human manned and not machinery automated.
co2 is the preservative as it does not interact with the beer, and it would be at partial pressure on the ship and mars.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-12 06:27:41

For SpaceNut re #155

Thanks for giving BeerMan some ideas to work with....

To begin with, knowing nothing about brewing in 2022, I would expect some automation to be in place for even a small custom brewery.

I wonder what that might be, and how it works to assist the owner/operator.

Second, CO2 is NOT part of the atmosphere prescription for the Large Ship or for Mars Habitat, except for greenhouses, where it is required.

So! For BeerMan ... can you guessimate what the optimum 'manufactured' atmosphere is needed for a brewery on Mars, or in flight to Mars?

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-08-12 13:59:26

Temperature affects yeast growth, so affects beer growth.

Pilsner vs. Lager: Difference Between the Two Beers

A lager is a kind of beer made with a type of yeast suited to bottom-fermenting at cold temperatures. The lager style varies in terms of how dark or light as well as how high or low the alcohol by volume (ABV) is for each individual beer type. Many well-known international beer manufacturers, as well as specialized craft beer companies, produce lagers in mass-market quantities. They are generally less hoppy than ale-style beers.
...
A pilsner is a type of light-colored lager that maintains its bright color while undergoing a process called “lagering” during production. Like other lagers, pilsners are bottom-fermenting types of beer made with a carbonation and brewing process characterized by cooler temperatures. To ferment at the bottom—the aspect that brewers sometimes refer to as lagering—means that the lager yeast spends a longer period at the bottom of a container.
In contrast to different lager styles of beer, pilsners are never dark lagers (they’re bright yellow rather than dark brown). As for how they compare to other popular beer styles, pilsners are always pale, but much smoother and with more malt flavor than, say, an India Pale Ale (IPA). They also have a specific ingredient profile and fermentation approach not shared by every other lager or beer. Whether an ale, general lager, or specific pilsner suits beer drinkers’ tastes depends more on their own preferences than any objective standard.

Fermentation converts sugar to ethanol and CO2. Obviously yeast capture energy, but the overall process is:
C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2

This means atmosphere is not involved. Yeast needs enough pressure to maintain water in liquid state, and at room temperature.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-12 14:16:50

For RobertDyck re #157

Thank you for another robust addition to the topic!

SearchTerm:beer brewing quick reference
SearchTerm:Atmosphere not involved in brewing of beer

I would imagine that in practice, ** some ** gas molecules of gas are involved in achieving the desired pressure.

I note a prior reference showing a range of pressure for brewing beer from 5 PSI to 20.

A related question that ** must ** be resolved for the Mars brewery operation, is supply of yeast and other ingredients. On Earth, individual human beings specialize in producing all the ingredients that go into production of beer, and it seems reasonable (to me at least) to suppose the same will be true on Mars.

In the flow of this topic therefore, it will be appropriate to enlist those who are currently involved in supply of needed ingredients on Earth, ** and ** encouraging those with an interest in the Mars project to participate.

From recent discussion, I am aware of the need for:

water
sugar
yeast
hops
grain ???
other ???

Bravo to all who are helping to develop this topic!

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-08-12 15:12:47

The first step in producing beer is malting the grain. Beer is usually made from barley. Each barley seed has a store of starch, intended to feed the plant embryo. When the seed sprouts, the embryo produce an enzyme called beta amylase. This enzyme breaks down starch into malt sugar. Home beer kits use liquid malt, water, and either white sugar (sucrose) or dextrose. However, you can make beer from nothing but malt. Perhaps BeerMan can tell us if commercial breweries use added sugar or not. Anyway, once barley sprouts produce amylase, the embroyo is killed by cooking in hot water. The water must be hot enough to kill the sprout, but not so hot that it destroys the amylase. I read it's done at 148°F to 158°F. The first reference below suggests start at 158°F to 169°F, because it will cool while soaking. But again BeerMan could correct me. This is left to soak for about 1 hour.

In a documentary about scotch whisky they said grain sells to 3 times its volume as it soaks up water. The pile of grain then gets quite warm as it sprouts. This was traditionally done in an unheated warehouse, in a climate that can get quite chilly in winter but temperature above freezing. Once the grain sprouts, it's cooked, as mentioned above. Then dry grain is crushed and added. It's crushed to release the starch. The hot (but not boiling) water with amylase will break down starch from the dry grain as well. So only a small portion of the grain must be sprouted. After it has broken down starch into malt, the result is filtered with a sieve. The vessel for this is called a lauter tun. It has a sieve built into the bottom, so you only have to open a tap to drain the liquid. Commercial breweries have a "mash tun" for this, then pour into a "lauter tun" to sieve. Doing it at home is easier if you use just one vessel.

Brewing from grain at home might seem that you're starting from scratch, but that isn't true. What they sell is "malted grain". So the grain is already malted and crushed. So the step of sprouting isn't necessary, it's already done for you.

The next vessel is a boil kettle. The wort (malt in water) is heated to a boil and hops are added. The reason is hops are a cone like pine cones, but soft. The tar-like substance in these cones must be heated to melt so it can dissolve into the wort.

Details of how to brew beer from grain (at home)... Home Brew Academy: All-Grain Brewing: How-to Guide + Tips & Tricks
Hazy and Hoppy: All Grain Brewing Process: A Beginner’s Guide

The reason I mention this is ingredients:
water
grain
hops
yeast

That's it. No other ingredients required. You can add sugar in order to reduce grain required, but beer can be made without sugar. Again, malting turns starch from grain into malt sugar. Perhaps BeerMan can tell us ratio of grain to sugar for commercial beer. To make wine from grapes, you add 1/3 crushed grapes to 2/3 sugar water. Is beer similar?

SpaceNut · 2022-08-12 18:00:03

large ship atmosphere as well as mars surface habitats contain PPM of co2 same as earth an if you are breathing you are creating it....

https://www.cacgas.com.au/blog/co2-carb … er-brewing

When the beer is carbonated it tastes different. The gas gives a refreshing sensation for the beer. The carbonation is also responsible for the bubbles that create the foam which is important to retaining the beers temperature. The volume of CO2 inside the beer is related to the foam consistency. Different beer styles have distinct volumes of CO2 required. The average CO2 volume is between 2.2 and 2.6. Some styles can be flatter, like English Ale, and others more carbonated, like the Weiss.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-12 20:48:51

For SpaceNut re #160

I ** think ** RobertDyck is trying to tell us the CO2 in beer comes from fermentation.

I ** think ** RobertDyck is trying to tell us the atmosphere around the brewing container has nothing to do with fermentation.

It would help if you can find and publish any information you have that differs from the information provided by RobertDyck.

In the meantime, here is a snippet that Google found:

Question: can beer be brewed in space?
About 5,960,000 results (0.50 seconds)
NASA has flown hops to the International Space Station to brew beer in space for a student experiment, and Budweiser recently launched barley seeds to the orbiting laboratory to study the barley malting process in microgravity. Space-flown yeast has also been used to successfully brew "space beer" on Earth.Aug 20, 2021
Space beer, anyone? Hops flying on SpaceX's private ...https://www.space.com › News › Spaceflight

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-08-12 22:19:18

Atmosphere does require that seeds must be able to sprout. That's required for malting. Recommended atmosphere will allow growing crops, so this shouldn't be a problem.
Yes, CO2 in beer comes from fermentation. That occurs at room temperature. Recommended atmosphere allows liquid water at room temperature, so again this will work.
The other point is the boil. The boil kettle is to extract essence of hops. At 1/2 atmosphere pressure, boiling temperature of water is 81.9°C (179.4°F). How will that affect melting the natural resin in hops, and dissolving into the wort? You could use a pressure cooker for the boil, which would capture steam from boiling causing pressure inside the kettle to increase, thereby increasing boil temperature. However, I doubt this necessary.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-15 16:30:06

an article of interest?

https://insidethecask.com/2019/05/27/alcohol-in-space/

Some alcohol has been sent to space for experimental purposes. In 2015, Japanese giant Suntory shipped some of its whisky to the space station. It was part of an experiment aimed to monitor “development of mellowness in alcoholic beverages through the use of a microgravity environment”. In other words, the way booze ages in microgravity could be different, causing it to taste better, faster. Two groups of five whiskies were launched, one of which was on board the ISS for about 13 months, while the other was scheduled to remain there for two or more years.

Not to be left behind, Ninkasi Brewing Company decided to launch brewer’s yeast into outer space and used it to make their signature Ground Control beer upon its return to Earth.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-15 16:36:28)

BeerMan · 2022-08-22 06:15:17

I go away for a short vacation and the discussion has taken off! (Forgive the pun). I'll to try to reengage where I can.

CO2 is a byproduct of fermentation and must be released. CO2 is reintroduced from a separate source when fermentation is complete to give the beer some additional carbonation. We call it "carbing" and it's generally the final step before tapping the beer for serving.

Maui Brewing Company captures some of the CO2 from the fermentation process to make dry ice, which it provides to the local community for free.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-22 06:36:00

For Beerman re #164

Hoping the vacation was enjoyable and restful!

For Mars, since the atmosphere is mostly CO2, and you have to do work to acquire it, I would imagine it would make sense to keep the CO2 from fermentation for use in carbonation later.

I understand there would be significant differences for an operation on Mars compared to Earth, but when you have time, please consider how you might arrange things if your operation were there.

The closest example I can think of is to imagine your operation were in a closed facility on Earth, with no access to the outside, except for cooling (transfer of heat to the outside).

In that case, your staff would be supplied with oxygen to breathe from equipment designed for that purpose, and the pressure inside the facility would need to be maintained using equipment designed for that purpose.

I can imagine the gas produced by fermentation might be collected and compressed, so it would be (or could be) available for re-use.

The question I have, which I am hoping you will have time to answer ... is there something about the CO2 collected from fermentation that would make it unsuitable for re-carbonation?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-22 06:39:46

For Beerman re production facility on Mars ...

It is in the nature of a forum like this for information to be scattered among multiple posts, so that it is disorganized and difficult to find when needed.

The forum has created a Dropbox account to help with the problem of organizing information so it is easy to find.

I anticipate that a great deal of detailed information will accumulate as you think about what it will take to set up an operation on Mars.

If you ever see a need for the information you assemble to be stored in a single location, please let me know, and we can discuss how to proceed.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-08-22 09:50:13

I've made beer from beer kits. The kit is a can of malt, packet of beer yeast, and bag of dextrose sugar. There are a lot of steps going from grain to malt, and when making beer commercially you don't boil down the malt. Instead the wort has yeast added, fermented right away. The malt of a home kit already has hops added and is boiled down to remove water. A 1.7kg net weight can of malt plus 1.2 kg of dextrose sugar will make 23 litres (5 British Imperial gallons) of beer. The point is homemade beer is naturally carbonated.

I make dark beer. You want to transfer to a carboy to remove oxygen when making dark beer, especially stout. I could give step-by-step instructions, but I'll keep it short. After all, BeerMan is a professional, I'm just a hobbyist.

Home beer kit is fermented 5-7 days, once foam has subsided transfer to a carboy, seal with airlock. Be careful not to disturb sediment. After 15-20 days specific gravity measured with a hydrometer should be 1.004 or less with no bubbles passing through the airlock. Add 1 cup dextrose to a primary fermenter (food grade plastic bucket) and siphon beer from carboy into this. stir. Then siphon into bottles. Store upright for 2 weeks, then move to a cool area.

As the beer yeast ferments that 1 cup of sugar, it adds the last little bit of alcohol. Most importantly, the CO2 from this fermentation stays in the bottle. That's natural carbonation. It's simple, but the down side is the yeast will grow producing a small amount of sediment at the bottom of each bottle. That sediment is yeast.

SpaceNut · 2022-08-22 18:55:38

Have a good vacation Beerman.

The question then for kits versus kegs and a real brewery component comes back to mass difference for same quantity of servings needed to keep everyone happy throughout the trip. Also, what difference in required water and source for heat energy is required. We know that both will be served cold so that is a moot point as its storage volume area needed.

BeerMan · 2022-08-23 06:28:52

Thanks, everyone. I had a nice little "staycation" near where I currently live. Naturally, I had to visit a few craft breweries to see how they compare.

Okay, CO2 from the fermentation process CAN be reused to carb the beer when it's ready to be served. However, the equipment to do this has been a matter of scale--larger breweries can do it and home kits don't really need to do it. However, craft breweries have not had the financial resources to purchase the required equipment. This may be changing: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ … -1.6091241

Interestingly, here is an earlier article about NASA working on tech to recover CO2 and how the technology could be used for beer on Earth: https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2016/cg_3.html. The Mars Society has a nice mention in the piece as well.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-25 06:58:39

After Finding water on Mars, scientists now plan for agriculture and see what crops will be grown

https://www.worldopress.com/post/after- … l-be-grown

Oldfart1939 · 2022-08-25 09:13:58

If we want beer--then wheat and barley. Wheat for wheat beer, barley for normal "hopped" beer. The hops will need to be imported from Earth, though.

RobertDyck · 2022-08-25 10:52:33

Why import hops? Why not grow them in a greenhouse on Mars?

Cornell University: Growing Hops at Home

The Plant
The hop plant Humulus lupulus L. is an herbaceous perennial, producing annual vines from an overwintering rootstock. In the spring and early summer, vines grow rapidly, winding around their support in a clockwise direction and clinging with strong, hooked hairs. They reach their ultimate height of 15-25 feet by the end of June when, in response to shortening day length, vines stop growing vertically and produce side arms which bear the flowers. The hop is dioecious, having separate male and female plants. Only the females produce the cone-shaped "hops" used in brewing. The male plant serves only as a pollinator, but is not essential for the female plants to produce hop cones. Hops are heterogeneous and new plants coming from seed could be either male or female. The rootstock is an underground structure consisting of both rhizomes (with buds) and true roots (without buds) which may penetrate the soil to a depth of 15 feet or more. During the first year little growth and few flowers are produced because the plant is establishing its root system. A normal crop of hops should be expected the second year.
Climate
The hop plant produces best under specific climatic and soil conditions. A minimum of 120 frost free days are needed for flowering. Direct sunlight and long day length (15 hours or more) is also needed. As a consequence of day length and season length, hop production is limited to latitudes between 35 and 55 degrees. The hop plant requires ample moisture in the spring followed by warm summer weather. In dry climates the hop plant will produce best if supplemental irrigation is provided.
Soil and Plant Nutrition
A deep well drained, sandy loam soil is best. A soil with a pH of 6 to 7.0 is ideal for hop production. Poorly drained, strongly alkaline or saline soils should be avoided. Fertilizers rich in potassium, phosphate, and nitrogen should be applied each spring. Nitrogen is required at a rate of approximately 150 lbs per acre (3 lbs N/1000 ft2) for mature plants, half that the first year or two. The nitrogen may be applied in split applications 2 or 3 times between March and mid-July. If manure or compost is applied around the hop plant, fertilizer applications may be reduced accordingly.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-25 11:32:51

For RobertDyck and all following this topic ...

Members of this forum ** COULD ** contribute to the cause, by growing hops at home using grow lights.

If the work is to have lasting value it should be supervised by a recognized institution, but even just reports of home experiments ** should ** be helpful.

Almost ** all ** plants that humans might want on Mars could be grown by Earth residents in at-home facilities.

This forum is as good a place as any for such experiments to be discussed and reported.

The forum now has the use of a Dropbox account to make a permanent record of experiments carried out by members.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-08-25 19:59:14

Some of mar's soils have less contamination within it but what needs to be done is to bring the rubbish to mars surface along with all other types of waste so as to bring with us the means to change the mars soils.
Measured levels of contamination in the crop will need to be performed before we can assure, we are eating safely.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-26 07:33:31

Isfjord Premium Arctic Vodka
https://www.masterofmalt.com/vodka/isfj … tic-vodka/

Bhutan and alcohol
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g … hutan.html

Alcohol is all good in Nepal but don't fall off that mountain, mixed society, peoples of caste groups and multiple ethnic results in extremely complex social behavior their raksi – it can be seen written also rakshi a brew from millet, rice, barley or wheat that has been distilled. Tongba is a millet-based alcoholic beverage found in the eastern mountainous region and Chi or Chhaang also known as jaar, Semi-fermented seeds of millet are served, stuffed in a barrel of bamboo called a dhungro, Aconitum species are amongst the most virulently poisonous plants known, containing a variety of extremely toxic alkaloids, including aconitine and pseudaconitine. The use of Aconitum as an additive in beer-brewing is therefore a practice fraught with the danger of fatal poisoning and should on no account be undertaken by any foolish amateur individual, According to folklore myth legend, chhaang is also popular with the Yeti, or Himalayan Bigfoot Snowmen who steal people's beers, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 4109004735 , https://web.archive.org/web/20091015071 … 07,00.html ,

Home-brewed beer with a head-spinning 16% alcohol content wins coveted award
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … award.html

What’s involved in brewing a great gluten-free craft beer?
https://www.craftbrewingbusiness.com/ne … -trending/

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