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#51 2016-01-01 23:35:22

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I am sorry people, but this has gone on long enough.  Replies that I get back indicate that you either do not receive what I send or don't bother to read them.  This has been going on for years.

I'm done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#52 2016-01-02 00:53:59

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,794
Website

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Void wrote:

I am sorry people, but this has gone on long enough.  Replies that I get back indicate that you either do not receive what I send or don't bother to read them.  This has been going on for years.

I'm done.

We do read your posts. For example, you received a reply to your last one:

louis wrote:

Void - Just a suggestion...why don't you provide a kind of abstract at the top of your longer posts i.e. a few bullet points setting out the points you are detailing below?  I think that may help some readers e.g. me!

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#53 2016-01-02 14:30:29

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Maybe this diagram will give a clearer picture:
domed_city_diagram_by_tomkalbfus-d9mhdbw.png
Errata:
Sorry the air in the dome, above the water layer, should be labeled "0.034 bar" atmosphere, not "0.34" bar atmosphere.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-01-02 14:34:04)

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#54 2016-01-02 15:42:12

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,108
Website

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

What are you planning to anchor the dome to, given how fragile the crater walls are?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#55 2016-01-02 15:46:33

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Terraformer wrote:

What are you planning to anchor the dome to, given how fragile the crater walls are?

If you bury the edges under enough dirt and rock, the weight of that alone will be enough to hold it down. Also we are only talking about pressure under the dome being sufficient not to cause water to boil at room temperature, this pressure is 0.034 bar, this is about 0.34 tons (340 kg weights) per square meter. Air would probably leak through the dirt and rubble abet slowly.

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#56 2016-01-02 21:03:18

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Viod we do consider the posts of yours such as the one in #35

Have you even considered the Martian ice caps and Nuclear power?

of which we do not have the means to cool let alone drop a reactor at the poles.. nor will we have the ability to do so for quite some time....

So if we chose to not reply to them its to prevent the flame wars that can happen.....
Its better to start with smaller posts and build up towards an idea rather than a huge post that is hard to follow.....

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#57 2016-01-02 21:11:37

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Tom the image in post #53 brings to mind the venus effect inside the dome.....unless we place cooling loops within the water that is inside the dome to keep it from becoming vapor...This is a few pumps,computer to control, temperature sensors and a loop to the outside cooler temperatures of the mars surface.

Why do we want a high circular arch for the dome?

Also what is the hieght of the air under the water barrier where the crew would live?

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#58 2016-01-03 13:38:16

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

SpaceNut wrote:

Tom the image in post #53 brings to mind the venus effect inside the dome.....unless we place cooling loops within the water that is inside the dome to keep it from becoming vapor...This is a few pumps,computer to control, temperature sensors and a loop to the outside cooler temperatures of the mars surface.

Why do we want a high circular arch for the dome?

Also what is the hieght of the air under the water barrier where the crew would live?

domed_city_diagram_by_tomkalbfus-d9mhdbw.png
Well first of all this diagram is not to scale, so the dome might not be as high as you think. As for how high the intermediate layer of water is, it has to be higher than the tallest building in Manhattan. For the purpose of this exercise, we'll assume it is 2016 AD Manhattan, where the tallest building is One World Trade Center also known as the Freedom Tower, on Mars we'll call it "One Mars Trade Center" One World Trade Center is 546.20 meters tall, we have to be careful that no place else in New York City or across the false Hudson River in New Jersey is higher. I think its fairly safe to say that from all points in the circle, you look up to the top of the Freedom Tower, not down. Okay, so lets make the elevation of the intermediate water layer at 600 meters above the surface of the Hudson River, which we'll use as our "sea level" for this crater. So the crater has to be at least 600 meters deep and 25.6 km wide to serve as the base for our replica of New York City on Mars. The dome need not be so high, it need not even be one continuous dome, it could be a "Crystal Palace" type structure. Or a cluster of domes joined on the side, with a number of cables perhaps connecting the tent fabric to the floor. Or it could have a flat top and be curved at the edges in the shape of a disk. All that is really necessary is that the roof be transparent to let in sunshine. No one lives in the upper portion, the air pressure is sufficient to allow liquid water to exist at room temperature and only that, the weight of the water provides the compression for the atmosphere underneath. The water also provides a source of water for the sprinkler systems in the ceiling of the inhabited area underneath the water area, by pumping surplus water to the upper water layer the regulator system would cause holes to open up at the bottom of this layer, causing it to "rain" on the city below. Perhaps holographic displays underneath can provide appropriate imagery of cloud cover to indicate to the people below, that it is about to rain, so they can get their umbrellas out in time, precede this with a few artificially generated gusts of wind and increased humidity in the atmosphere to tell people it is about to rain!, a few displays of false lightning might get the message across too.

Controlling the temperature inside the dome should be fairly easy on Mars, instead of dumping the excess heat into the atmosphere, we dump it into the ground instead, and the average temperature of the ground, even at the equator is quite cold, so it won't get too hot. The greenhouse effect is quite helpful on Mars, we want a comfortable temperature after all, we also might want to retain heat for the Martian night so it doesn't get too cold under the dome.

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#59 2016-01-03 15:25:57

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

You think big but I would like to start small.  It would work the same for a small crater wouldn't it? Or perhaps you could test it out in a large vacuum chamber first.

It reminds me a little of the idea I had some time ago now of about whether you could seal a crater with a stable floating layer of dense gas of some description that would slow down the escape of Earth analogue air from the crater to such an extent that the rate of oxygen/air production could match leakage.

Another idea I wondered about was to have a series of laser beams forming a "roof" over the crater - would that slow down the escape of air?

This reference seems to suggest laser beams can interfere with motion of gas molecules - so maybe my idea is not so crazy:

http://phys.org/news/2009-12-lasers-cool-molecules.html


Tom Kalbfus wrote:
SpaceNut wrote:

Tom the image in post #53 brings to mind the venus effect inside the dome.....unless we place cooling loops within the water that is inside the dome to keep it from becoming vapor...This is a few pumps,computer to control, temperature sensors and a loop to the outside cooler temperatures of the mars surface.

Why do we want a high circular arch for the dome?

Also what is the hieght of the air under the water barrier where the crew would live?

http://orig05.deviantart.net/48fd/f/201 … 9mhdbw.png
Well first of all this diagram is not to scale, so the dome might not be as high as you think. As for how high the intermediate layer of water is, it has to be higher than the tallest building in Manhattan. For the purpose of this exercise, we'll assume it is 2016 AD Manhattan, where the tallest building is One World Trade Center also known as the Freedom Tower, on Mars we'll call it "One Mars Trade Center" One World Trade Center is 546.20 meters tall, we have to be careful that no place else in New York City or across the false Hudson River in New Jersey is higher. I think its fairly safe to say that from all points in the circle, you look up to the top of the Freedom Tower, not down. Okay, so lets make the elevation of the intermediate water layer at 600 meters above the surface of the Hudson River, which we'll use as our "sea level" for this crater. So the crater has to be at least 600 meters deep and 25.6 km wide to serve as the base for our replica of New York City on Mars. The dome need not be so high, it need not even be one continuous dome, it could be a "Crystal Palace" type structure. Or a cluster of domes joined on the side, with a number of cables perhaps connecting the tent fabric to the floor. Or it could have a flat top and be curved at the edges in the shape of a disk. All that is really necessary is that the roof be transparent to let in sunshine. No one lives in the upper portion, the air pressure is sufficient to allow liquid water to exist at room temperature and only that, the weight of the water provides the compression for the atmosphere underneath. The water also provides a source of water for the sprinkler systems in the ceiling of the inhabited area underneath the water area, by pumping surplus water to the upper water layer the regulator system would cause holes to open up at the bottom of this layer, causing it to "rain" on the city below. Perhaps holographic displays underneath can provide appropriate imagery of cloud cover to indicate to the people below, that it is about to rain, so they can get their umbrellas out in time, precede this with a few artificially generated gusts of wind and increased humidity in the atmosphere to tell people it is about to rain!, a few displays of false lightning might get the message across too.

Controlling the temperature inside the dome should be fairly easy on Mars, instead of dumping the excess heat into the atmosphere, we dump it into the ground instead, and the average temperature of the ground, even at the equator is quite cold, so it won't get too hot. The greenhouse effect is quite helpful on Mars, we want a comfortable temperature after all, we also might want to retain heat for the Martian night so it doesn't get too cold under the dome.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#60 2016-01-03 15:50:24

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,794
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Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Building from small components is more efficient. A commercial business can afford one building, but how expensive is your dome? Constructing one building at a time is more economical; easier to manage Return On Investment (ROI). And yes, when you're talking about something this big, you do have to concern how it's paid for. Individual buildings also mean as one building is completed, it can be used to produce industry to grow the economy and industrial capacity of that civilization.

Then there's safety. Remember, this is a meteorite crater. What happens if another meteorite hits? The larger the dome, the greater chance it will be hit. A micrometeoroid the size of a grain of sand or dust will burn up in the atmosphere miles (kilometers) above the ground. What about a fist size meteorite? What happens do your dome? A collection of small domes, or individual buildings, mean the damage is localized, contained. Industry in remaining buildings can repair the damage.

Then there's material strength. It's a lot easier to design a dome the size of one from the movie Logan's Run (see earlier pages). Existing materials are strong enough to do that. A dome the size you're proposing is much more difficult.

And a layer of water above the city? Yes, I did say we could fill the gap between panes of a window with mineral oil for radiation protection. That idea is taken from 1950s designs for rooms designed to work with radioactive isotopes. They wanted high density glass with high density mineral oil between pieces of glass to block the greatest amount of radiation. Because of what they worked with, they were concerned with neutron and gamma radiation. Water is better to block heavy ion GCR, but Mars atmosphere is even better (because it's miles/kilometers thick). A Mars settlement has to worry most about proton, and to a lesser extent light ion radiation. Charged particles should be blocked more effectively with charged shielding, perhaps a liquid with both polar and ionic properties. Yes, that means salt water. But again, look at your design.

What happens when a meteorite follows the path you drew for a light ray? How much water pours down onto the city? And how heavy is that water layer? How will you support it?

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#61 2016-01-03 16:46:03

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,924

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I agree about the meteorite threat, Robert.  It strongly argues for (a) discrete habs with airlock connections to other habs and (b) putting a substantial amount of your hab infrastructure either underground or in lava tubes.


RobertDyck wrote:

Building from small components is more efficient. A commercial business can afford one building, but how expensive is your dome? Constructing one building at a time is more economical; easier to manage Return On Investment (ROI). And yes, when you're talking about something this big, you do have to concern how it's paid for. Individual buildings also mean as one building is completed, it can be used to produce industry to grow the economy and industrial capacity of that civilization.

Then there's safety. Remember, this is a meteorite crater. What happens if another meteorite hits? The larger the dome, the greater chance it will be hit. A micrometeoroid the size of a grain of sand or dust will burn up in the atmosphere miles (kilometers) above the ground. What about a fist size meteorite? What happens do your dome? A collection of small domes, or individual buildings, mean the damage is localized, contained. Industry in remaining buildings can repair the damage.

Then there's material strength. It's a lot easier to design a dome the size of one from the movie Logan's Run (see earlier pages). Existing materials are strong enough to do that. A dome the size you're proposing is much more difficult.

And a layer of water above the city? Yes, I did say we could fill the gap between panes of a window with mineral oil for radiation protection. That idea is taken from 1950s designs for rooms designed to work with radioactive isotopes. They wanted high density glass with high density mineral oil between pieces of glass to block the greatest amount of radiation. Because of what they worked with, they were concerned with neutron and gamma radiation. Water is better to block heavy ion GCR, but Mars atmosphere is even better (because it's miles/kilometers thick). A Mars settlement has to worry most about proton, and to a lesser extent light ion radiation. Charged particles should be blocked more effectively with charged shielding, perhaps a liquid with both polar and ionic properties. Yes, that means salt water. But again, look at your design.

What happens when a meteorite follows the path you drew for a light ray? How much water pours down onto the city? And how heavy is that water layer? How will you support it?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#62 2016-01-04 11:41:22

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

RobertDyck wrote:

Building from small components is more efficient. A commercial business can afford one building, but how expensive is your dome? Constructing one building at a time is more economical; easier to manage Return On Investment (ROI). And yes, when you're talking about something this big, you do have to concern how it's paid for. Individual buildings also mean as one building is completed, it can be used to produce industry to grow the economy and industrial capacity of that civilization.

You build the entire city all at once! At first its going to be underutilized. the first colonists will enter the dome and find a quite city with empty streets, this city although is a copy of an unplanned city, would be a planned city, the buildings and roads are all laid out according to where they are in New York City, including commercial buildings and private residences with furniture, but New New York will also have the extra parking spaces in garages under each building and extra roadways underground, that the original New York City doesn't have, this should take care of the traffic problem for a long time to come, and since it is all build at once, you don't have the "Eminent Domain" problems you would have if you tried to build these things in the original New York City. Also it is hard to add a subsurface parking garage to a building that doesn't have one without tearing it down first and then building a new building on top of that garage. If you build a city all at once, you can solve all these problems in one fell swoop! Building a little at a time, as you suggest, recreates the same problems with traffic congestion and lack of parking spaces that New York City already has. You have to remember that New York City was not originally build for the automobile.

RobertDyck wrote:

Then there's safety. Remember, this is a meteorite crater. What happens if another meteorite hits? The larger the dome, the greater chance it will be hit. A micrometeoroid the size of a grain of sand or dust will burn up in the atmosphere miles (kilometers) above the ground. What about a fist size meteorite? What happens do your dome?

A fist sized meteor will produce a fist sized hole in the dome, most of the energy of impact will not be transferred to the dome, as the dome's surface will not stop the meteor. The Meteor will continue until it hits the water and then punches a hole in the floor through which water will pour, the meteor will then impact in the ground beneath producing a crater and dumping the rest of its kinetic energy there. The Martian atmosphere will do a fairly decent job of slowing down most meteors, as most meteors on Earth burn up high in the atmosphere and are called shooting stars. Because of the lower gravity, the meteor will have almost three times as much atmosphere to pass through for any given atmospheric density. So impact energy will be divided up between the Martian atmosphere, the dome surface, the water surface and floor, passing through the atmosphere under the dome, and them impact on the ground below to dump the remainder of its impact energy. I think the small hole produce will allow a slight leakage as the volume of gases is so much greater compared to the size of the hole in the dome, that it would be for a smaller dome. There would be plenty of time to patch the hole before all the air and water empties out.

RobertDyck wrote:

A collection of small domes, or individual buildings, mean the damage is localized, contained. Industry in remaining buildings can repair the damage.

Then there's material strength. It's a lot easier to design a dome the size of one from the movie Logan's Run (see earlier pages). Existing materials are strong enough to do that. A dome the size you're proposing is much more difficult.

The dome above the water has much less air pressure that the inhabited area below, the air above has enough air pressure to prevent water from boiling at room temperature, and Mars is cold enough to regulate the temperature from going much above that. Anyway if the water did boil, the air pressure above the water would increase with water vapor until the water stopped boiling. As for one dome or many. There are many possibilities. You can have multiple domes linked together at a single base covering a single area. Another possibility is having a flat dome above the water.
Here is another version of my domed city, this one has a layer of glass on top, as thick as required to hold in the thin atmosphere underneath:
domed_city_diagram_by_tomkalbfus-d9mqdis.png
Does this work better for you?

RobertDyck wrote:

And a layer of water above the city? Yes, I did say we could fill the gap between panes of a window with mineral oil for radiation protection. That idea is taken from 1950s designs for rooms designed to work with radioactive isotopes. They wanted high density glass with high density mineral oil between pieces of glass to block the greatest amount of radiation. Because of what they worked with, they were concerned with neutron and gamma radiation. Water is better to block heavy ion GCR, but Mars atmosphere is even better (because it's miles/kilometers thick). A Mars settlement has to worry most about proton, and to a lesser extent light ion radiation. Charged particles should be blocked more effectively with charged shielding, perhaps a liquid with both polar and ionic properties. Yes, that means salt water. But again, look at your design.

What happens when a meteorite follows the path you drew for a light ray? How much water pours down onto the city? And how heavy is that water layer? How will you support it?

The air pressure equals the weight of the water on top and the transparent floor that support the water layer under Mars gravity Salt water might not be the best thing, as that water is also the source of water for the sprinkler system so it can rain, or perhaps snow if people desire winter. An arched roof underneath the water can support that excess amount of water that exceeds the air pressure below. When the weight of the water exceeds the air pressure below by a certain amount, it rains or snows through the sprinkler system on the ceiling. If you want it to stop raining you either increase the air pressure below until it equals the weight of the water above, or you let the water drain out through the sprinkler system until the weight of the water is reduced to equal the air pressure below.

Now another question is whether to have seasons under the dome or have it a constant 72 degrees all the time, this simulating Florida or some other such tropical place. it seems those regions of the world where it is below freezing for part of the year are more healthy than those places where it is tropical all the time, otherwise known as the "Third World!" The ecology of New York City requires winter, so should we reproduce that ecology of New York City, maybe even bring in city pigeons and the like? What do you think?

So long as you can keep adding more water to replace the water that falls through, things can remain stable until you can repair the hole.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-01-04 12:40:50)

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#63 2016-01-04 12:55:07

IanM
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I'm usually a fan of mini-domes, simply for expansion purposes. What if, for example, we'd eventually need to build New Westchester County, New Long Island, New Connecticut, etc., for when we fill the crater with people? I then realized that the crater, by virtue of being a crater, would already hinder expansion. I was going to express suspicion on the idea on those grounds, but I began to wonder, what would be the "maximum population" of this New New York?

Let's be like the Dutch and start settlement of the city from "Lower New Manhattan". From this, we'll use the land area of simply New Manhattan, which, per Wikipedia, would be 22.83 square miles (59.13 km^2 for you metric folks). Manhattan already has a population density of 71,672 residents per square mile (27,673/km^2), which is already impressive - it has more people than my entire 2.5-square mile neighborhood of Chicago in one square mile. But let's establish some sort of maximum population density. It could theoretically be infinite, but in practice the human body has non-zero size so eventually we'd be literally packed like sardines in a can. I'll use the densest population ever recorded - that of the Kowloon Walled City in 1987, a whopping 1,255,000 people per square mile (3,250,000/km^2) as the max.

Using such figures, New Manhattan alone would have a population of 28,651,650, more than the population of New York STATE, and the greater part of those of Texas and California. Now let's proceed to use that for all of New New York. I'll assume that it is a perfect circle with a radius of 8 miles, and as such, its area would be 64*pi, or roughly 201.06, square miles (165.759*pi and 520.74 km^2, respectively); this is excluding the portion thereof that is water, but this is an informal estimation in any case. Using the figures again, New New York in total would have 252,332,722 residents, more than all but the top 3 countries on EARTH, and the greater part of the total population of the United States.

So, I think New New York would likely build up, and by the time it would be cramped, terraformation would likely be well on its way, and even if it isn't, it'd still be somewhat cool to have a Coruscant-like domed crater. Therefore, I doubt horizontal expansion is that necessary.

Last edited by IanM (2016-01-04 12:58:13)


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#64 2016-01-04 15:25:19

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

IanM wrote:

I'm usually a fan of mini-domes, simply for expansion purposes. What if, for example, we'd eventually need to build New Westchester County, New Long Island, New Connecticut, etc., for when we fill the crater with people? I then realized that the crater, by virtue of being a crater, would already hinder expansion. I was going to express suspicion on the idea on those grounds, but I began to wonder, what would be the "maximum population" of this New New York?

New Westchester would be done in a lot of separate domes, smaller than New New York, that is because the population density is lower and would not justify the massive construction costs of building such a large dome, instead a bunch of smaller domes would be built, the entire point of living in the suburbs is having space between yourself and your neighbors. I imagine villages under smaller domes surrounded by single family domes with maybe an hectare of space under each family dome for yard and garden, otherwise surrounded by raw Martian landscape. Perhaps there will be tunnels connecting these domes in the more heavily populated suburbs, in the more rural regions, cars would have to be built to travel outside in the Martian environment with pressurized cabs and everything. Suburbanites would see a lot more red in their landscapes, the rural regions would have agricultural domes for growing various crops to feed the big city domes.

IanM wrote:

Let's be like the Dutch and start settlement of the city from "Lower New Manhattan". From this, we'll use the land area of simply New Manhattan, which, per Wikipedia, would be 22.83 square miles (59.13 km^2 for you metric folks). Manhattan already has a population density of 71,672 residents per square mile (27,673/km^2), which is already impressive - it has more people than my entire 2.5-square mile neighborhood of Chicago in one square mile. But let's establish some sort of maximum population density. It could theoretically be infinite, but in practice the human body has non-zero size so eventually we'd be literally packed like sardines in a can. I'll use the densest population ever recorded - that of the Kowloon Walled City in 1987, a whopping 1,255,000 people per square mile (3,250,000/km^2) as the max.

Using such figures, New Manhattan alone would have a population of 28,651,650, more than the population of New York STATE, and the greater part of those of Texas and California. Now let's proceed to use that for all of New New York. I'll assume that it is a perfect circle with a radius of 8 miles, and as such, its area would be 64*pi, or roughly 201.06, square miles (165.759*pi and 520.74 km^2, respectively); this is excluding the portion thereof that is water, but this is an informal estimation in any case. Using the figures again, New New York in total would have 252,332,722 residents, more than all but the top 3 countries on EARTH, and the greater part of the total population of the United States.

So, I think New New York would likely build up, and by the time it would be cramped, terraformation would likely be well on its way, and even if it isn't, it'd still be somewhat cool to have a Coruscant-like domed crater. Therefore, I doubt horizontal expansion is that necessary.

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#65 2016-03-19 22:05:13

Dexter2999
Member
Registered: 2016-03-08
Posts: 20

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Domes small and large, compartmentalized, redundant systems. Subsurface facilities are also a must. I'm thinking those lava tubes need to be used to house inflatable structures that get reinforced.

To the comment earlier in the thread "adversity breeds camaraderie", I think that only applies to perceived peers. Any elitist would more than likely default to a sense of entitlement and competition for resources kicks in. This is probably not a consideration for a NASA mission in which crew is screened and groomed, but in reference to Elon Musk's idea of tourism this is almost guaranteed to be a given.

Saw this pic today....this looks like it should be on Mars. (Valencia Science Center, Spain)
City-of-Arts-and-Sciences-Valencia.jpg

Last edited by Dexter2999 (2016-03-19 22:20:37)

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#66 2016-03-20 07:24:43

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,108
Website

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Have I given my vision yet, for Canyon City?

10-20 storey buildings built along the walls of the canyon, a clear roof that uses water for radiation protection, and open space on the canyon floor. Probably an artificial canyon, maybe built by digging down to the floor of a frozen sea.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#67 2016-03-20 08:12:58

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Dexter2999 the image on the right could be a hill side construction using the very hill side to mine the insitu resource to actually make the glass, steel and mars cement needed to create it but until we can land the equipment it will have to wait untill raw man power can perform the tasks of construction and building of such structures.

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#68 2016-03-20 11:25:50

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Terraformer wrote:

Have I given my vision yet, for Canyon City?

10-20 storey buildings built along the walls of the canyon, a clear roof that uses water for radiation protection, and open space on the canyon floor. Probably an artificial canyon, maybe built by digging down to the floor of a frozen sea.

totalrecall16.jpg?itok=RcHV39nk
Something like this maybe?

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#69 2016-03-20 12:36:49

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,108
Website

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

No, not really...


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#70 2016-03-20 13:34:40

Dexter2999
Member
Registered: 2016-03-08
Posts: 20

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

SpaceNut wrote:

Dexter2999 the image on the right could be a hill side construction using the very hill side to mine the insitu resource to actually make the glass, steel and mars cement needed to create it but until we can land the equipment it will have to wait untill raw man power can perform the tasks of construction and building of such structures.

Oh, I am sure that any "artistic" structure will require humans there.

But robots are capable of a whole lot. I think our perspective is more the limit. And that perspective will most likely have to change.

We can't build everything here and carry it with us. It just isn't practical. So, drones will be needed to find and stockpile resource materials. Iron, certainly, but why not have them also creating stores of oxygen, nitrogen, and water?

Speaking of practical, how many engineers and architects are actual builders? Large scale projects currently require large scale workforces to construct. Traditional methods just don't seem to make sense.

New methods are needed. New ideas. Or at least new application of existing ideas. Here are some video links to some interesting tech.

Ten houses printed in 24 hours in China
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SObzNdyRTBs

Spider like 3D printing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNg8HtcDUF8

This one is using styrofoam as forms for concrete construction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3v6VgiM5hY

Expandable structure Hoberman sphere at LSC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN5AgauUpPA

Or modular construction inspired by Buckminster Fuller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bn2o-xyS6M

Remember this? XANADU (now torn down)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lNS1ruK4s

EDIT: I just think we can and need to take a look at existing ideas and see if can't extrapolate them into something more advantageous.

Last edited by Dexter2999 (2016-03-20 13:55:57)

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#71 2016-03-20 13:49:39

Dexter2999
Member
Registered: 2016-03-08
Posts: 20

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Terraformer wrote:

Have I given my vision yet, for Canyon City?

10-20 storey buildings built along the walls of the canyon, a clear roof that uses water for radiation protection, and open space on the canyon floor. Probably an artificial canyon, maybe built by digging down to the floor of a frozen sea.

http://www.blastr.com/sites/blastr/file … k=RcHV39nk
Something like this maybe?

This is pretty cool looking.

It splits the difference between the dome and subterranean ideas. Canyon walls can provide some protection from storms and could even extend out into subterranean extensions. Compartmentalized (most likely.)

It is a nice example of things that don't have to be either/or.

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#72 2016-03-20 15:44:20

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Yes Dexter2999 we do need to think outside of the box with regards to making Mars ours with as few people as possible but its the issue of how to create the needed resource that is the issue for Mars as we can not land but a little over a ton at present to mars surface and while adept, HIAD and other methds to boost that tonnage to the surface these are all still on the drawing board....

The 3D topic is here to contniue that within 3D Printers as it does contain what we have talked about in its regards....
I will continue there...

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#73 2016-03-20 19:05:48

IanM
Moderator
From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Terraformer wrote:

Have I given my vision yet, for Canyon City?

10-20 storey buildings built along the walls of the canyon, a clear roof that uses water for radiation protection, and open space on the canyon floor. Probably an artificial canyon, maybe built by digging down to the floor of a frozen sea.

Do you mean something like the Pueblos of the American Southwest?


Dexter2999 wrote:

We can't build everything here and carry it with us. It just isn't practical. So, drones will be needed to find and stockpile resource materials. Iron, certainly, but why not have them also creating stores of oxygen, nitrogen, and water?

Welcome to NewMars. I'm not entirely sure if we need drones to carry Iron, as it is abundant in the regolith for humans to pick up themselves. That being said, the other elements might not be so apparent or accessible, and it can't hurt to have robots for that.

With Iron, we could sinter it to make bricks, and use that as a building material. I downloaded a PowerPoint from 4Frontiers (http://www.4frontierscorp.com/library/d … ations.php) a while back that detailed how to make Martian Cement to use as mortar. The main drawback of it is that the cement described therein doesn't hold well in moist environments, which could be an issue as Mars is terraformed.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#74 2019-04-21 09:01:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,180

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Ah another city topic stumbled on.
This goes with other infrastructure topics as well since we will need to supply our homes with energy and more to be able to collectively survive mars.

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