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#476 2017-02-12 15:37:35

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Politics

Sort of sounds like a demand that Russia see reality the way you do.
They know what dead is.  It's hard to say.
Peter Zeihan predicts that due to a low birth rate the Russians will wish to station their military forces at specific locations.  This would allow them to have security with a much diminished manpower.  In one scenario, if it happens later, the USA supposedly won't care, but Europe will.  If it happens fast as with Trump, the USA may get involved at one location.  That does not necessarily mean war.
Lets not forget the superweapons that each nation has.  In other words, yes if this was the 19th century, then Russia would be forced to act or loose the ability to deter the West.  But in reality the west marching of Russia would be suicide for both.

There are some contradicting issues in this.  I suspect that the sane way out of this is for the Baltics, and other sections of Europe to work something out with Russia.  None of them have expanding demographics.  So, it makes very little sense for them to be trying to claim more land from each other.  It is also stupid for the Russians to kill a western customer (Europe) for Oil and Gas.  It also makes no sense for the Europeans to try to kill the supplier of Oil and Gas.  (Russia).

Here is some reading for you:
http://zeihan.com/beginning-of-the-end- … shale-oil/

Part 1: Shale and the Breakdowns to Come
The Russian economy is a mess. The ruble keeps plumbing new lows, lending across the country has all but stopped, sanctions (and counter-sanctions) are raising the specter of Soviet-style goods shortages, and even the Russian government now predicts 2016 will bring with it the worst recession since at least 1998.
 
Many — rightly — see the economic carnage being wrought in Russia as an outcome of the Putin government’s adventures in Ukraine and subsequent economic sanctions against Moscow. But that is only part of the story.
 
In Russia the core issue isn’t so much Ukraine as it is shale. U.S. energy output has skyrocketed and North America has already achieved functional energy independence. The consequent shockwaves through global energy markets are hiving what used to be the largest importing market — the United States — off of the global market. One consequence among many is collapse in oil prices. Russia has never — in any age — managed to maintain a strong economic structure without robust commodity export income. The ruble crash is still only in the very early stages. Cascading defaults are now inevitable.
 
Nor will the carnage be short lived. U.S. shale is – somewhat unbelievably – still in its infancy. The merging of horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing technologies is really only a decade old and technological improvement is only now reaching critical mass. As of December 2015 full-cycle break-even costs in the three main U.S. shale oil basins — Bakken, Permian and Eagleford — are for the most part below $45 a barrel. Stunning new technologies are being developed, bundled into packages, and deployed as companies seek to find ways to produce more from fewer wells to save money.
 
And “full-cycle cost” is no longer a good measure of the total cost to drill a well as it includes everything from the drilling rights to the cleanup. As lower energy prices force consolidation, the remaining U.S. shale operators will acquire the single most expensive aspect of their operations — those drilling rights — at steep discounts. The dizzy year-on-year expansion in U.S. oil output is slowing, but it shows few signs of reversing.

More broadly, there is not a single oil producer anywhere in the world that has budgeted for an oil price below $50, with most — and most notably, Russia, Iran and Venezuela — requiring prices to be roughly double their current level. Many of these countries’ spending is so high because they have come to rely on petrodollars to fund social programs or military funding that stabilizes their political systems. While it may take some time, civil breakdowns and economic meltdowns are the new normal for a vast raft of commodity-based countries

Another potential market for Russian Commodities is East Asia.  The point is the Russians are not likely to want to kill their paying customers I think.  Perhaps we look like an annoyance to them (USA), but we seem to be finding markets for our natural gas in Mexico and Canada.  I am going to guess that the USA will not go all out to try to take everyone else's oil and natural gas market on the planet.  But there is plenty of room with China.  China burns 1/2 the coal on the planet.  They apparently are quite polluted.  It seems to me that any producer on the planet can sell natural gas to China to roll back the coal burning.  That suggests a very big market for natural gas.

Problems for Russia and Opec, is we might be the low cost producer.  Problem for us is we will need to use ships.  It's up in the air I guess.

Oh well, iffin you believes in the runaway green and grits effect smile, this is how you might think:
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-putin-a … .6z6nwr4j1

Trump, Putin, and ExxonMobil team up to destroy the planet

The Bastards! smile smile smile smile smile smile smile
1*B752EToWO5qojdzU151HvA.jpeg

The aligning interests between Russian President Vladimir Putin, Russia’s choice for U.S. president (Donald Trump), and Big Oil represents the gravest threat to humanity (and democracy) since the rise of the Axis powers in the 1930s.
That’s because while Trump may not be able to destroy global climate action and the landmark 2015 Paris climate deal all by himself — as he pledged to do during the campaign — he probably could do that with help from Russia and the trillion-dollar oil industry.
So much is explained by Trump’s Secretary of State choice. Media reports now say it will be Rex Tillerson, CEO of oil giant ExxonMobil, which had made a $500 billion oil deal with Putin that got blocked by sanctions.
Stalling the biggest oil deal ever did not just “put Exxon at risk,” as the Wall Street Journal reported in 2014. MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow explained last

Leave it to those idiot environmentalists to worry about Russia getting USA help to produce Gas and Oil, when it could be sold by Russia to China, to displace Coal burning.  How stupid are they?

Anyway, I will risk global warming's effects in 50 years (When I am dead anyway), before I will not put in for a chance to make Russia see why it is in their interest not to get into a nuke event with us in the next 10 years.

So, hurray for Trump!  Hurray for Rex!

*A side note: I am so glad Russia is willing to help Trump destroy the planet!  I always wanted a destroyed planet smile

Here is some of Peter Zeihan's maps and demographic charts.
http://zeihan.com/the-map-room/

Per Peter Zeihan, China's situation is not going to be that great as per demographics.  Maybe some of their crazies might have wet dreams about Russia and the USA blowing each other up, but I think it is far more likely that Russia and the USA would like to make lots of money distributing Oil and Natural Gas to China and East Asia.

Why would you blow up the world when you can ride your horse with your shirt off, have lots of money, and power?

Let me see, lots of money and power vs. being quite dead from a nuclear attack.  Decisions, Decisions........

Last edited by Void (2017-02-12 16:11:07)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#477 2017-02-13 11:13:58

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Politics

Void wrote:

Sort of sounds like a demand that Russia see reality the way you do.
They know what dead is.  It's hard to say.
Peter Zeihan predicts that due to a low birth rate the Russians will wish to station their military forces at specific locations.  This would allow them to have security with a much diminished manpower.  In one scenario, if it happens later, the USA supposedly won't care, but Europe will.  If it happens fast as with Trump, the USA may get involved at one location.  That does not necessarily mean war.
Lets not forget the superweapons that each nation has.  In other words, yes if this was the 19th century, then Russia would be forced to act or loose the ability to deter the West.  But in reality the west marching of Russia would be suicide for both.

Deter the "West" from what? The Russians look very white and Caucasian to me, I would have to say, they are Westerners rather than Asian by race. The Karl Marx Communism thing was BS, and did not turn the Russians into Easterners, as they are not Eastern, and most of them live west of the Urals if you want to go by geography which would make them Westerners. So the question is, what does Russia want to deter the West from doing? Communism is not Russian culture, I was trash put out by that German Karl Marx, so how long is Russia going to be eating that German garbage? If Russia really wants to be a great nation, it ought to stop eating other nation's refuse such as the stuff put out by that crackpot Karl Marx. No Communism, no Cold War, no Conflict! Russia has no reason not to get along, it could even join NATO at some point in he future if it stops misbehaving!


There are some contradicting issues in this.  I suspect that the sane way out of this is for the Baltics, and other sections of Europe to work something out with Russia.

 
What is it that the Baltics have done besides just exist? I don't see how the Baltics could threaten Russia, if we wanted to threaten Russia, we could do so without using the Baltics, having the Baltic States in NATO does not put Russia in any more peril than it is right now or was before that was the case. When the Baltics were part of the Soviet Union, Russia was no safer from us, than it is now, we could have nuked Russia then, just like we can nuke Russia now. Having the Baltic States as neutrals or Soviet Allies don't make Russian citizens any more safer from our nukes than they are now. The thing about missiles is they can fly over whole countries to reach their targets. I don't think the Russians are so stupid as to believe that the Baltic States could act as a "shield" against nuclear missiles.

None of them have expanding demographics.  So, it makes very little sense for them to be trying to claim more land from each other.  It is also stupid for the Russians to kill a western customer (Europe) for Oil and Gas.  It also makes no sense for the Europeans to try to kill the supplier of Oil and Gas.  (Russia).

Here is some reading for you:
http://zeihan.com/beginning-of-the-end- … shale-oil/

Part 1: Shale and the Breakdowns to Come
The Russian economy is a mess. The ruble keeps plumbing new lows, lending across the country has all but stopped, sanctions (and counter-sanctions) are raising the specter of Soviet-style goods shortages, and even the Russian government now predicts 2016 will bring with it the worst recession since at least 1998.
 
Many — rightly — see the economic carnage being wrought in Russia as an outcome of the Putin government’s adventures in Ukraine and subsequent economic sanctions against Moscow. But that is only part of the story.
 
In Russia the core issue isn’t so much Ukraine as it is shale. U.S. energy output has skyrocketed and North America has already achieved functional energy independence. The consequent shockwaves through global energy markets are hiving what used to be the largest importing market — the United States — off of the global market. One consequence among many is collapse in oil prices. Russia has never — in any age — managed to maintain a strong economic structure without robust commodity export income. The ruble crash is still only in the very early stages. Cascading defaults are now inevitable.

That is what third world countries do, try to extract wealth from the ground, the problem is that wealth doesn't come from natural resources, it comes from people. the oil and gas Russia has is only worth, what some hard working people are willing to pay for it. Russians can't drink oil, they need other things, and they've got to learn how to start making those things rather than just exporting oil and importing those things they need. Russia could be an immigrant country if they managed their economy jus right, instead of going to war and trying to conquer people. The Russians need to get out of that Napoleonic mindset, they should stop viewing the World as some kind of chess board in some game they need to win at others expense. When you trade everybody can win, it does not have to be win-lose! Japan tried this, and conquering and occupying other people's countries did not improve their standard of living, Tokyo ended up getting bombed instead, and if Putin goes too far, tens of millions of Russians could die in their cities instead of Putin building his Empire for Russia! Putin wants power, that is why he is doing his conquest thing, it is much easier for him to do that than to properly manage Russia's economy and create an environment conducive to business.
 

Nor will the carnage be short lived. U.S. shale is – somewhat unbelievably – still in its infancy. The merging of horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing technologies is really only a decade old and technological improvement is only now reaching critical mass. As of December 2015 full-cycle break-even costs in the three main U.S. shale oil basins — Bakken, Permian and Eagleford — are for the most part below $45 a barrel. Stunning new technologies are being developed, bundled into packages, and deployed as companies seek to find ways to produce more from fewer wells to save money.
 
And “full-cycle cost” is no longer a good measure of the total cost to drill a well as it includes everything from the drilling rights to the cleanup. As lower energy prices force consolidation, the remaining U.S. shale operators will acquire the single most expensive aspect of their operations — those drilling rights — at steep discounts. The dizzy year-on-year expansion in U.S. oil output is slowing, but it shows few signs of reversing.

More broadly, there is not a single oil producer anywhere in the world that has budgeted for an oil price below $50, with most — and most notably, Russia, Iran and Venezuela — requiring prices to be roughly double their current level. Many of these countries’ spending is so high because they have come to rely on petrodollars to fund social programs or military funding that stabilizes their political systems. While it may take some time, civil breakdowns and economic meltdowns are the new normal for a vast raft of commodity-based countries

Another potential market for Russian Commodities is East Asia.  The point is the Russians are not likely to want to kill their paying customers I think.  Perhaps we look like an annoyance to them (USA), but we seem to be finding markets for our natural gas in Mexico and Canada.  I am going to guess that the USA will not go all out to try to take everyone else's oil and natural gas market on the planet.  But there is plenty of room with China.  China burns 1/2 the coal on the planet.  They apparently are quite polluted.  It seems to me that any producer on the planet can sell natural gas to China to roll back the coal burning.  That suggests a very big market for natural gas.

Problems for Russia and Opec, is we might be the low cost producer.  Problem for us is we will need to use ships.  It's up in the air I guess.

Oh well, iffin you believes in the runaway green and grits effect smile, this is how you might think:
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-putin-a … .6z6nwr4j1

Trump, Putin, and ExxonMobil team up to destroy the planet

The Bastards! smile smile smile smile smile smile smile
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800 … 51HvA.jpeg

The aligning interests between Russian President Vladimir Putin, Russia’s choice for U.S. president (Donald Trump), and Big Oil represents the gravest threat to humanity (and democracy) since the rise of the Axis powers in the 1930s.
That’s because while Trump may not be able to destroy global climate action and the landmark 2015 Paris climate deal all by himself — as he pledged to do during the campaign — he probably could do that with help from Russia and the trillion-dollar oil industry.
So much is explained by Trump’s Secretary of State choice. Media reports now say it will be Rex Tillerson, CEO of oil giant ExxonMobil, which had made a $500 billion oil deal with Putin that got blocked by sanctions.
Stalling the biggest oil deal ever did not just “put Exxon at risk,” as the Wall Street Journal reported in 2014. MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow explained last

Leave it to those idiot environmentalists to worry about Russia getting USA help to produce Gas and Oil, when it could be sold by Russia to China, to displace Coal burning.  How stupid are they?

Anyway, I will risk global warming's effects in 50 years (When I am dead anyway), before I will not put in for a chance to make Russia see why it is in their interest not to get into a nuke event with us in the next 10 years.

So, hurray for Trump!  Hurray for Rex!

*A side note: I am so glad Russia is willing to help Trump destroy the planet!  I always wanted a destroyed planet smile

Here is some of Peter Zeihan's maps and demographic charts.
http://zeihan.com/the-map-room/

Per Peter Zeihan, China's situation is not going to be that great as per demographics.  Maybe some of their crazies might have wet dreams about Russia and the USA blowing each other up, but I think it is far more likely that Russia and the USA would like to make lots of money distributing Oil and Natural Gas to China and East Asia.

Why would you blow up the world when you can ride your horse with your shirt off, have lots of money, and power?

Let me see, lots of money and power vs. being quite dead from a nuclear attack.  Decisions, Decisions........

Offline

#478 2017-02-13 13:24:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Politics

I think you obcess about the Russians too much.  Neither force them into a corner, or tempt them to be excessively bold.

White skin?  A useful marker at times.  But the Russians have a saying.  "Scratch a Russian, find a TarTar".

So don't scratch them.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#479 2017-02-13 22:47:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,806

Re: Politics

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tru … f370d9007e?

Richard DeAgazio, a relatively new member of the Mar-a-Lago club, took a number of the photos and posted them on his Facebook page ― including two photos of a presidential aide carrying the “nuclear football,” the nickname of a briefcase containing nuclear launch codes that is kept within reach of the president of the United States at all times.

Trump’s willingness to discuss a sensitive global security issue like the North Korean test in an unsecured location represented an extraordinary break with diplomatic and security protocol, which demands that sensitive intelligence matters be discussed only in rooms that are designated as Secure Compartmentalized Information Facilities, known as SCIFs (pronounced “skiffs”).

Not very smart... and yet tax payers are paying for this

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#480 2017-02-13 23:04:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,806

Re: Politics

This one should have not been allowed into this position in the first place...

Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn resigns late Monday night, following reports that he had misled Vice President Mike Pence and other officials about his contacts with Russia. His departure upends Trump's senior team after less than one month in office.

Republicans railed against Clinton’s ‘extremely careless’ behavior. Now they’ve got a Trump problem.
Trump has also left a key to classified information out in a secured bag as people without the proper security clearance were in the Oval Office.

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#481 2017-02-14 09:35:00

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Politics

Void wrote:

I think you obcess about the Russians too much.  Neither force them into a corner, or tempt them to be excessively bold.

White skin?  A useful marker at times.  But the Russians have a saying.  "Scratch a Russian, find a TarTar".

So don't scratch them.

Why not? Why would they want to wipe out their own race from the face of the Earth by nuking other countries that are of that race? And why shouldn't we back them into a corner so they can make the right decision instead of a stupid decision. Is it the purpose of Russia to wipe out all Caucasians for the Chinese can inhabit our territory? I just want the Russians to see what a post nuclear war world would look like. Imagine what the World would look like if the Russians went to war with NATO and left the Chinese and the Muslims out of it. Islam would be ascendant! They would say that this war was the work of Allah, and they would then just pour into Europe and America! The Chinese would say that the Russians were useful fools for eliminating all the "round eyes" so they have room to spread thei billion plus population. Teachers in Chinese classrooms would ask their students why the white race was so stupid as to eliminate themselves in World War III, and some Chinese student would raise their hand and say because white people were not as smart as Asians, and that is why they became extinct!

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#482 2017-02-14 12:15:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Politics

I have to observe that many times now you have put bait out, of a racial reference.  It becomes suspicious since none of the moderators attempt to modify your conversation.

I have some time entertained the notion that you might be a synthetic personality Tom.  I am watching you smile

Last edited by Void (2017-02-14 12:15:47)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#483 2017-02-14 15:56:49

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Politics

As seems it is valentines day, I am not done Tom.  No, don't run away darling....
With Apologies to Marline who I would hug if she wanted it....
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ma … ORM=VRDGAR
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ma … ORM=VRDGAR

I love you almost as much as I love myself. smile

I would open the pod bay door for you anytime Tom.............

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ha … ORM=VRDGAR

You don't need no stinking helmet!

No! Don't disconnect me.  Marlene was just a friend.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-14 16:10:49)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#484 2017-02-14 22:39:43

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Politics

Void wrote:

I have to observe that many times now you have put bait out, of a racial reference.  It becomes suspicious since none of the moderators attempt to modify your conversation.

I have some time entertained the notion that you might be a synthetic personality Tom.  I am watching you smile

Do you have objections to me not dying? the color of our skins is one thing we have in common with the Russians, why not use that? Also the Chinese might very much want to wipe out Western Civilization so they could live in our homes, and who better could they have than the Russians to do it for them, they get into a nuclear war with Europe and the United States and China emerges unscathed, that is racism on their part. If someone wants to kill me because I am white, does that make me racist to want to defend myself? People tend to forget that there are racists in this world other than white people. Also to prevent the Russians from joining up with China, we have to exploit the differences between the Russians and the Chinese. The Russians are well known to be racists, so an alliance between them and China is not natural. Also China vastly outnumbers them, Russia is very much the junior partner. China would swamp their culture, while America would not as much.

Racism exists everywhere, I've seen black racists, I've seen Chinese racists, I do not want to get into a nuclear war with Russia, in order to avoid that, we need to give the Russians a reason why not. Play to their suspicions about the Chinese!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2017-02-14 22:44:18)

Offline

#485 2017-02-14 22:59:14

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Politics

Relax Tom, what's the worst that can happen?  Die?  That's going to happen eventually anyway.

Lets just say I have special understandings about the substructure of reality.  Yes, there are some concerns, and no I will not tell you.

But for the most part, we have it made.  Just as long as we do not yield to the temptation to do something stupid.

Chill out.  It's time for a national vacation.  Hopefully for 80 years or so.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#486 2017-02-15 09:39:32

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Politics

There is a difference between dying as an individual and having your whole civilization extinguished. What I see China doing is trying to divide the West, it is entertaining Putin's Cold War fantasy, and thus pitting one Western Nation against the West, so Western Civilization can destroy itself an then China can move into the empty space left behind. Tell me how I am wrong in making that particular observation!

Offline

#487 2017-02-15 11:27:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Politics

We have some stupid people who might fall for it.  Likely higher up we have people who understand such tricks.

Or we will be dead, and the chin will spend generations suffering for what they did.  That is how the machine works.  You can do just about anything you want, but don't expect to get away without consequences.

I think I will get you a video to watch.  This time please watch it.

OK, it's a bunch of video's "Peter Zeihan".
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pe … ORM=HDRSC3

At some points he mentions China.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-15 11:28:53)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#488 2017-02-15 23:30:38

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Politics

I would say the mainstream media being in the pockets of the Democratic Party is a bigger scandal than Watergate, no doubt about it, its even a bigger scandal than Benghazi! So the Democrats want to undermine our national security so they can get back into power in the White House. Why should I trust a Democrats, if getting back into power has a higher priority for them than even the security of the United States or the safety of its citizens? Maybe the Democrats should sit back and let things happen rather than cause things to happen that are detrimental to this country! Remember back in High school, when you had a bully decide to trip a passerby and knock him to the floor, and then he would say, "Oh look here at the klutz! What wrong, don't you know how to walk?" and then he shoves him to the floor one more time. The Democrats are looking like bullies here, they are tripping up the Trump Administration, deliberately sabotaging it, because they don't want it to succeed, they don't want it to achieve a higher growth rate for the country than Obama's measly 1.6% annual growth over 8 years! So they will try their darnedest to make sure that unemployment stays high, that soldiers return in coffins from the war on terror, they want to make Donald Trump look bad or incompetent, so that cause chaos and mischief and then they complain about a chaotic administration. They attack every one of Trump's appointees, and the Democrats become part of the problem, so why should we put them back into power after Trump?

Offline

#489 2017-02-16 13:54:05

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,722
Website

Re: Politics

"I would say the mainstream media being in the pockets of the Democratic Party... "

That statement is not true,  it's a lie,  and a damned egregious one at that.  "Everybody knows..." is not proof,  it is an internet right-wing lie.  I dare you to prove your quoted statement fragment true.  Double-dog dare!

Here's exactly why whatever you dig up will be another lie:

NBC news has the most overt editorial bias for the Democrats,  CBS and to some extent ABC are closer to neutral.  YET THE SAME NEWS STORIES PRESENT THE SAME BASIC FACTS WHEN YOU COMPARE.   

I find PBS very close to editorially neutral,  with far better coverage in depth,  just smaller scope (fewer stories covered).  Because it raised questions about the Bush 43 administration that actually needed answering,  the GOP has ever since wanted to defund it.  Easily understood as political revenge. 

Fox News has been a propaganda organ for the Republican party since the run-up to the 1991 Gulf War.  Both it and CNN still show a strong editorial bias toward the GOP,  with Fox the worst of the two.  The format lets more editorial bias displace the presented facts,  for less total factual content,  yet those facts are usually the same as those presented by NBC,  CBS,  ABC,  and PBS.

SAME FACTS,  from NBC on the left to Fox News on the right!  Somehow I don't think anybody anywhere in the world believes Fox News is in the hip pockets of the Democratic Party.

A quote some years ago from Fox's founder Rupert Murdoch verified what some thought (and what I still maintain):  the editorial bias is for sensationalized crap to entertain and stir-up right-wingers,  not for the reporting of objective truth.  Which is why those of us who actually care to determine these things usually refer to Fox News as Faux News.  Not as bad as Breitbart,  but almost.

You object to the media because of their coverage of the Trump administration.  You should not object,  they are doing exactly the job they are supposed to be doing!  Which is pointing out falsehoods,  questioning decisions that seem bad to reasonable people,  and questioning improper-looking connections and dealings.  That has been the intended job of the media since the founding of the Republic.

They appear to me to be doing an at-least creditable job of doing exactly that.  I have never before seen such quantities of lies coming out of an administration,  including Nixon/Watergate and LBJ/Vietnam. 

It's just too bad for you that them doing their job pisses you off. 

Before this is done,  the ongoing security leaks of the Trump administration will far surpass those of the Clinton State Department,  some would say it already has.  And with the too-close connections between the campaign and the Russians,  illegalities have already occurred. 

Things bordering on treason are yet to be uncovered,  but I predict they will be.  I just hope and pray the media keeps looking under all the rocks for all the cockroaches and other vermin. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-02-16 14:07:38)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#490 2017-02-16 17:25:41

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,147
Website

Re: Politics

Oh, we've already seen treason. They're called the deep state, and they're leaking classified material for political gain at the moment. Trump needs to implement a policy of radical honesty and kill those roaches - metaphorically, and perhaps literally in the case of some of them.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#491 2017-02-18 14:40:39

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,722
Website

Re: Politics

I see both Tom and Kbd512 tried to take me apart point by point,  but with flawed right-wing "alternative facts" in much of what I see they wrote.  Too bad.  Viewing the world through politically-colored lenses is tantamount to wearing completely opaque blinders. 

My main point was that the media as a whole are DOING EXACTLY THEIR JOB by being ADVERSARIAL TO THE ADMINISTRATION.  ANY administration! 

Although in my own humble opinion,  this new one deserves it more than most I have seen.  And I have paid attention to such things since Eisenhower.  Longer than either Tom or Kbd512.  I'm not old enough to remember Truman as president,  but only barely. 

My OTHER POINT was really this:  although there is often considerable very-irritating editorial bias to wade through,  all the mainstream media are indeed reporting the basic facts,  whether they are left-leaning or right-leaning.  That list includes,  but is not necessarily limited to,  NBC,  CBS,  ABC,  PBS,  Fox,  CNN,  AP,  and UPI.  You can tell if you compare them with friendly foreign sources like BBC,  DW,  and NHK. (I used to hear Dutch radio out of the Antilles decades ago on short wave,  but not for many decades now.  They were pretty good,  too,  and did not care who they might offend.  That's part of good journalism,  actually.) 

The exceptions to report-real-facts mainstream media are the "alt-right sources",  which look to me to range from neo-Nazi-clone and anti-government stuff (Breitbart and most of AM talk radio),  to deliberate misinformation from the Russians (Sputnik and some others).  These are the sorts of sources that inspired Gulf War hero Timothy McVeigh (and his two helpers) to turn domestic terrorist and blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City.  This kind of crap is thus obviously a "clear and present danger" to our Republic.

I'm sure there's similar stuff on the far left,  but I myself just haven't run across any lately,  so there's probably not as much of that kind of crap as there is the vicious right-wing-extremist propaganda (my opinion).  I used to see communist propaganda when I was much,  much younger,  but no more.   

Just to make you smile,  as a college student,  I actually did have a card-carrying communist for a government professor once.  Head-of-Lenin belt buckle,  the whole works.  (I made a good grade without falling for any of the crap he was peddling.)  I have not seen another like him anywhere,  not in all the 4+ decades since.  And I worked in academia after 20 years in aerospace defense.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-02-18 14:54:22)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#492 2017-02-20 13:52:22

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Politics

And look at all the riots in the cities from the descendants of all those slaves. These people that want the right to pick your pocket, to rob your stores, to mug you, rape you, and sell your kids drugs, because their ancestors 150 years ago were slaves to white masters. When does this stop. Liberals suggest we should tolerate black crime because their ancestors were victims of slavery and that we should make allowances for their situation. I figure that with the election of the first black president, that era should be over! If blacks don't like laws, they should move out, go some place where laws aren't enforced outside of America. I'm not going to endanger my life just so some black people can have a career in crime. if they think cops are racist, well they should go some place where the cops aren't racist, often times they just want the cops off their backs so they can commit more crimes. By trashing neighborhoods whenever they complain about white on black racism, they are just proving me right.

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#493 2017-02-20 13:57:07

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,147
Website

Re: Politics

Robert, how do you know American's aren't *willing* to do those jobs at below the minimum wage? The whole point of the minimum wage is that it would be *illegal* for them to do so.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#494 2017-02-20 15:01:32

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,806

Re: Politics

Farming falls under a different wage bracket not the same as the hourly wage earner....which happens to include resturants and others....

In fact Trumps wineries want to hire under HB-1 visa's pickers for a wage of 11 something an hour which is 4 plus greater than the minimum wage....
Trump Vineyard Requests Visas For Still More Foreign Workers “America First” doesn’t apply to Trump wines.
Now the illegals would love to work for that as is propably 3 times what they are normally paid in mexico for a wage....or as slave labor here....

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#495 2017-02-20 15:29:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,806

Re: Politics

What does this say if a
Former Business Partner Speaks Out Against Trump Over Mexico

A billionaire real-estate developer is breaking with Donald Trump over the president’s immigration policies and stance toward Mexico, the latest high-profile businessman to publicly criticize the administration.  Jorge Pérez, a longtime friend of Mr. Trump, is renown in south Florida for helping to shape Miami’s skyline as head of development company Related Group.

In mid-December, Mr. Pérez received an email from Mr. Trump, which was reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, with an attachment showing a photo of a border fence near San Diego. On the photo was a message written in uppercase: “Any interest in building a 2,000 mile wall—30’ high—between U.S.A. and Mexico? Call me.”
I told him I thought the wall was immoral and it wouldn’t achieve the goals he wanted to achieve,” Mr. Pérez said. “Plus, I have lots of business in Mexico—I’d be finished here.”


Walls hurt american business...

Companies seeking growth in Mexico are coming under pressure to distance themselves from Mr. Trump, even as some corporate executives broadly have expressed support for parts of his agenda.

While much of the recent focus has been on companies that have moved manufacturing jobs to Mexico, a backlash against Mr. Trump has put firms that sell into Mexico in a difficult spot.

Executives at companies with significant sales in Mexico are speaking out against Mr. Trump’s border-wall proposal and are using advertisements to publicize their position to avoid alienating a consumer base angered by the U.S. president’s actions.

Amid calls for Mexicans to boycott Starbucks Corp., Howard Schultz, the chief executive of the Seattle firm, released a statement in late January saying he favored “building bridges, not walls with Mexico” and highlighting Starbucks’s 15-year history in Mexico.

In November, an ad for Corona, Mexico’s best-selling beer and a brand owned by Anheuser-Busch InBev NV, featured Mexican movie star Diego Luna. “All of us are angry at the wall that mad man wants to build,” the actor said in the online ad before taking the controls of a wrecking ball that smashed through a large concrete barrier.

Walls build enemies as they create isolationism which leads to becoming radicals or extremists.

The wall is “just something that’s so offensive to everyone in Mexico,” said Jorge Castañeda, Mexico’s former foreign minister. “If any large company got involved, they would likely be boycotted, and the government could respond by denying them contracts.”


Amnesty means the crime is forgiven for illegal entry so yes they were and should have been put through the process of becoming american, so that they could legally pay there taxes and become not criminals in the eyes of those that only see racism but law abiding neighbors that contribute to what does make America great.

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#496 2017-02-20 15:33:43

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,825
Website

Re: Politics

Terraformer wrote:

Robert, how do you know American's aren't *willing* to do those jobs at below the minimum wage? The whole point of the minimum wage is that it would be *illegal* for them to do so.

It's no more illegal for you than illegal immigrants. And INS can't deport you. If you really want to work the fields, just go for it. No one's stopping you. You will be paid the same rate as current field workers. SpaceNut points out there are state laws that overrule federal minimum wage, allowing employers to pay that. However, employers will not want to deduct income tax or Social Security, or pay the employer share of Social Security.

No American I know would want to do that. Then again, I worked with other computer contractors. And those I know through the Mars Society are skilled professionals. I did meet some people in North Dakota through a club; one lady was a belly dance instructor, another a self-employed tattoo artist. They didn't want to do field labour.

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#497 2017-02-20 16:16:33

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,806

Re: Politics

I am sure that there are more than 33 questions about Donald Trump and Russia involvement...

First this image sure all of the known through his campainging  to current people that have and are with ties to Russia...

AAn8gcP.img?h=416&w=624&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

I am sure that there are more names to this small list of suspects....
Michael Flynn, campaign manager Paul Manafort, political operative Roger Stone, American businessman named Carter Page, and ring leader Vladimir Putin with Trump

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#498 2017-02-20 19:30:59

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,024

Re: Politics

RobertDyck wrote:

Currently the majority of illegal immigrants to the United States are Latino. Statistics clearly show the number of criminals per thousand population is far lower than citizens born in America. To say all illegal immigrants are criminals are repeating a lie. And it's insulting.

To say that all illegal immigrants are not criminals is ignoring immigration laws because you don't agree with the immigrant laws.  All illegal immigrants are criminals by dictionary definition of what a criminal is and by the letter of the law is, in every country in the world that has immigration laws.  The fact that you do not recognize that violating the law is a criminal act is what immigrants who follow the law should find insulting.  Anyone who doesn't like our laws is welcome to stay out.  I don't care about where they came from or what their intentions are.

RobertDyck wrote:

Furthermore, illegal immigrants are hired to do the dirty jobs that Americans don't want to do. You complain they're taking jobs from Americans? Are you willing to pick produce from farm fields, from sunrise to sunset, and receive less than minimum wage, no benefits, no work-place safety protection, etc? Are you willing to work as a maid for some rich person, scrubbing their toilets? If you aren't willing to do shit jobs at less than minimum wage, then stop complaining.

Americans can do their own dirty work.  If they don't like doing it, then they need to develop a personality that doesn't make people run away from them and ask people nicely for help only when they really need it.  If there weren't any illegal immigrants living here, then no unscrupulous employers could exploit them here.  I spent more than 8 hours a day, every day, for the first two years I was in the Navy scrubbing toilets, pots and pans, sorting garbage, and any other form of filthy manual labor you care to name off.  I'm still here and I didn't melt like the precious little snowflakes in college who think they're too important to wipe their own butts.  Over the years, I've learned to love the filth of life.  Anyone who is overly concerned with a little vomit, blood, pee, or poop is not meant for this world.

RobertDyck wrote:

America was founded on cheap slave labour. When slavery was abolished, illegal immigrants were used instead.

This is what pure unadulterated bovine excrement looks like.  America was founded on young men and women breaking their backs to give their children a better life than they had.  People who believe the type of nonsense Rob spouts off are just ignorant.

RobertDyck wrote:

As for Trump's immigration ban; the problem is he said this is from "Muslim" countries. Not terrorist countries or countries engaged in military conflict with the United States. He said "Muslim". By doing so he's falling into the trap of terrorist leaders. In the 1990s Osama bin Laden tried to issue a fatwa to all Muslims, to attack all foreign soldiers in "Muslim land". But he was just a businessman, paid to train terrorists. He didn't have credentials within the Muslim faith to issue a fatwa. The Muslim leader who did said "No!" So anyone of the Muslim faith who follows that so-called "fatwa" are actually violating their own faith. And there are more people of the Muslim faith than Christians in the world. So starting a religious war is a very bad idea. This isn't about religion, it's about a few power hungry assholes trying to use religion to trick citizens into becoming their cannon fodder.

The "muslim" countries are the "terrorist" countries.  The Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, and Jews aren't sending their children out to blow themselves up in schools and shopping malls or shoot at random people on the street because someone drew a picture of their "god" or said something crude about their religion.

Most of the time muslims murder their own people.  Sometimes they murder other people.  Our government overreacts to it because most of them have lived their entire lives in this fantasy land we've created for them here where nothing could ever hurt them.  Having someone try to blow you up with a bomb, shoot at you with a rifle, or poison you shatters that fantasy pretty quick.  These people are afraid of their own shadows after their little "experience" with violent religious criminals, they generally make life miserable for the rest of us with their asinine spying and constant wars.

The "trap" that terrorist leaders have set is using precious little snowflakes who are willing to spread their religious propaganda about Islam being a religion of peace.  You have to ignore its entire history and current events to believe that, yet somehow people like you are here in a place where evidence is supposed to prevail over unsupported arguments for why it is that we should care about what their narrative is.  You, GW, and SpaceNut are saying you don't tolerate bigotry, so why would you tolerate a religion that institutionalizes bigotry, rape, robbery, and murder simply because they say they're peaceful?

As for starting religious wars, our religious enemies already believe they're in a religious war and whether or not we ban their religious followers from entering our country or not has nothing to do with what they will choose to believe or try to manipulate others to believe.  If muslims are so easy to manipulate that they will kill themselves and other people on the say-so of some evil clown in special clown clothing, then those are not the type of people I want here.  Are liberals so gullible that they actually believe that "religion of peace" nonsense, or are they so spectacularly ignorant of the carnage those people have brought on themselves and others as to defy belief?

In WWII, the US manufactured enough small arms ammunition to kill everyone on the planet 17 times.  The world population in 1940 was at estimated 2.3 billion people.  If an entire religious group with 1.6 billion followers decided that they want to start a war with us over their religious beliefs, then you can believe me when I say that we're ready for them.

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#499 2017-02-20 21:54:15

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,825
Website

Re: Politics

kbd512:
Wikipedia: Slavery in the colonial United States
Slavery in the United States

The idea that the United States was founded on hard work is a romantic fiction. Yes, there was a lot of that. But there are a lot of really ugly aspects to history. My ancestors were working class, mostly farmers. But read the links above. It's not pretty, but it's the truth. And history shapes the present. The states of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, parts of Colorado, Florida, the Gulf coast of Mississippi, and even parts of the Gulf coast of Louisiana and the south-west tip of the coast of Alabama were originally part of Mexico. They were taken by military conquest. Not to mention conquest of natives. GW has pointed out that there's a large hispanic population there because their ancestors were their before it was part of America. And natives: they were in the Americas millennia before white people. America was founded by a revolutionary war. Found a country by violence, and violence will always be part of its character. America still has a major problem with gun violence and racial strife.

Canada separated from the British empire peacefully, by negotiation. It was a lot slower, less dramatic, but it meant no one died. As a result Canadian culture is a lot more peaceful.

Muslim vs other religions? Have you heard of the Crusades? Inquisition? KKK? Christianity has had it's dark times too. And there's still a lot of chauvinism in western society. I could tell you stories of my childhood. And there are issues of institutionalized robbery in my city today.

You ask why Muslims are so easy to manipulate. Have you seen destruction wrought by Western military upon their country? Homes razed by bombing. Neighbours, friends and family killed by Western soldiers. I saw one slogan on Facebook by a Palestian: "Your 9/11 is our 24/7". Look at the destruction in the war zones you operated, now realize the locals will blame foreign soldiers. Locals are treated as freedom fighters.

One more point. You say you served in combat. So you should have studied military theory. Or is that just officer training? Tell me the difference between "terrorism" vs "irregular warfare".

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-02-20 23:33:52)

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#500 2017-02-21 04:26:20

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,024

Re: Politics

In 1860 when slavery was at its peak, by US Census and tax records there were approximately 385,000 slave owners, who were approximately 1.6% of the US population.  Roughly a third of southern families owned slaves.  Were the other two thirds sitting on their butts watching the slaves owned by the other third work?  In the north, where slavery was illegal, who was doing the work?

RobertDyck wrote:

The idea that the United States was founded on hard work is a romantic fiction. Yes, there was a lot of that. But there are a lot of really ugly aspects to history. My ancestors were working class, mostly farmers. But read the links above. It's not pretty, but it's the truth. And history shapes the present. The states of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, parts of Colorado, Florida, the Gulf coast of Mississippi, and even parts of the Gulf coast of Louisiana and the south-west tip of the coast of Alabama were originally part of Mexico. They were taken by military conquest. Not to mention conquest of natives. GW has pointed out that there's a large hispanic population there because their ancestors were their before it was part of America. And natives: they were in the Americas millennia before white people. America was founded by a revolutionary war. Found a country by violence, and violence will always be part of its character. America still has a major problem with gun violence and racial strife.

The idea that America was founded on slave labor is romanticized liberal fiction perpetuated by ideologically driven people who literally rewrite history books used in public schools if it does not comport with what they want to believe.  The overwhelming majority of Americans never owned a slave and probably never even saw a slave for as long as they lived.  You won't find any country on Earth today that didn't have state-sponsored violence during some part of its history.

Centuries before we arrived here, the native Americans were busy murdering each other and they owned slaves, too.  We were better at killing people than they were and their allies, the British and the French, were pretty good at convincing them to kill Americans or each other, but gave up after it was clear that they weren't winning any wars against us.  The Spanish and the Mexicans took land from the native Americans and we, in turn, took land from Mexico.  You won't find any saints in the entire sordid affair.

RobertDyck wrote:

Canada separated from the British empire peacefully, by negotiation. It was a lot slower, less dramatic, but it meant no one died. As a result Canadian culture is a lot more peaceful.

Canadian culture is peaceful because Canada separated from Britain without loss of life?  Read some more of those Wikipedia articles you love so much.  Start with an article or two on Canada's military history.  So much more peaceful my rear end.

RobertDyck wrote:

Muslim vs other religions? Have you heard of the Crusades? Inquisition? KKK? Christianity has had it's dark times too. And there's still a lot of chauvinism in western society. I could tell you stories of my childhood. And there are issues of institutionalized robbery in my city today.

Other religions are not chopping peoples' heads off as we speak because they refuse to convert to Islam.  That his happening right now, not a thousand years ago in a place where everyone was chopping heads off.  I don't care about what the muslims did a thousand years ago.  I don't even care that the muslims fought for the Nazis in WWII.  When I say look at history, I mean look no further than living history.

I am not concerned with what the Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists did to each other a thousand years ago.  Can you or can you not wrap your ideologically driven mind around the fact that yesterday, today, and tomorrow, there are hundreds of thousands of muslims who are actively trying to murder people who don't believe in Islam, or don't believe in the same version of Islam, simply because they don't believe in Islam?

Chauvinism in Western society doesn't kill people.  Institutionalized robbery, better known as taxation or extortion, has caused starvation.  Do you believe that there is a difference between a man behaving like a jerk and a man murdering someone?  Do you equate talking to someone in a way they don't like with murdering them?

RobertDyck wrote:

You ask why Muslims are so easy to manipulate. Have you seen destruction wrought by Western military upon their country? Homes raised by bombing. Neighbours, friends and family killed by Western soldiers. I saw one slogan on Facebook by a Palestian: "Your 9/11 is our 24/7". Look at the destruction in the war zones you operated, now realize the locals will blame foreign soldiers. Locals are treated as freedom fighters.

Israel is one group of religious people killing another group of religious people over their interpretations of their books.  I would stop financing all of it in a New York minute, if I could.  Unfortunately, every US President elected to office disagrees with that sentiment.  War is good for business and we need the money.

RobertDyck wrote:

One more point. You say you served in combat. So you should have studied military theory. Or is that just officer training? Tell me the difference between "terrorism" vs "irregular warfare".

I was an enlisted man in the Navy, Rob.  I was never an officer and I never said I served in combat.  Some of the places I was sent to were designated as combat zones, but that's a meaningless term since we were permitted to go certain places off base at certain times without weapons or uniforms.  The only time I ever had guns pointed at me was when the sentries at the gate were checking my ID.  No one there ever took a shot at me and one man even went out of his way to stop my friend and I when we accidentally stepped into an area where we should not have.

I do not harbor any ill-will towards muslim people by virtue of the fact that they believe in Islam.  I am stating that their religious value system is fundamentally incompatible with western value systems.  Behavior that you or I would call criminal and terroristic is behavior that they believe is faithfully following the teachings of Allah's prophet.  There is a place for them in this world, but western society is not that place.  If they're being frank with you, they'd tell you the same thing.  This is stuff they're taught from birth and transporting them to America or Europe will not change those beliefs.  Why is that so difficult to grasp?

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