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#51 2015-10-22 14:29:56

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,062
Website

Re: Corporate Government

martienne,

It seems you would prefer everyone else pay for a select few elites to live in your idea of a perfect society...


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#52 2015-10-22 14:40:03

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
Website

Re: Corporate Government

A Robotic Loom You Can Build at Home

Barcelona designer creates an open source machine that lets you 'print' your next favorite sweater at home

Screen-Shot-2014-09-18-at-10.39.02-PM-700x437.jpg

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#53 2015-10-22 15:04:39

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
Website

Re: Corporate Government

I started this discussion with a proposal for an advanced stage of Mars settlement. When we have towns on Mars, and one city. I suggested one corporation would lead that settlement. New arrivals would be recruited by the corporation to work as employees to mine, smelt, refine, manufacture, and farm (in a greenhouse) all the basic necessities. Cottage industry would be encouraged; after all Mars will need everything. A new arrival could work to earn enough money to build a homestead in the outback, then quit his/her job to live off the land.

Employment: If an individual has a homestead, he won't need employment. He/she could grow food in his/her own greenhouse, cook, repair life support equipment, etc. If an individual is unemployed, the corporate employment office would offer assistance. The program I suggested was job training. Aptitude testing, then interviews with employers. Once an employer agrees to hire that individual, he/she will go through job training. Once complete, the cost of job training and the cost of living while in the training program will be treated as a loan. That loan will be paid via payroll deduction. The employer will be required to keep the employee until that loan is fully paid, but the employer could assign the employee the worst jobs in the company. And the final fall-back: every ticket to Mars includes a free return to Earth.

Air: Yes, space for an apartment building the city dome will be charged rent. That rent will pay for pressure, air recycling, heat, and all the services of a city. Think of it as property tax, but it isn't a tax, it's rent. And it may not be a dome, it may be a large building like a mall. The entrepreneur could then build apartments within that space, and charge rent to tenants. In addition to apartment rent, there would be utility bills. But again, if you build your own homestead outside the big city/town dome/building, then there won't be any rent. But you will have to build your own facilities for pressure, air, heat, etc.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-10-22 19:50:31)

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#54 2015-10-22 15:11:54

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
Website

Re: Corporate Government

Getting to this point: Mars Direct or equivalent habitats, with tools. These basic tools will be used to harvest Mars resources, then build larger habitats from those resources. Basic tools brought from Earth will be used to build larger tools in the workshop. For example, don't bring a loom from Earth, instead bring tools to build a loom from steel made by smelting hematite concretions mined from Mars. Once a 12-personal base is constructed with full workshop, that will be duplicated to double the base. That 24-person base will build a larger 1000 person base with small factories. That community with will build a city with large factories.

Rapid prototyping and 3D printing will be used during early stages, so I guess they aren't exactly "basic" tools.

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#55 2015-10-22 15:28:49

martienne
Member
From: EU
Registered: 2014-03-29
Posts: 146

Re: Corporate Government

RobertDyck wrote:

martienne, yes we can have windows.

Thanks for the really helpful info about windows and how to make them radiation proof. Really educational, and I have been wondering about this.

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#56 2015-10-22 15:57:18

martienne
Member
From: EU
Registered: 2014-03-29
Posts: 146

Re: Corporate Government

RobertDyck wrote:

I started this discussion with a proposal for an advanced stage of Mars settlement. When we have towns on Mars, and one city. I suggested one corporation would lead that settlement. New arrivals would be recruited the by the corporation to work as employees to mine, smelt, refine, manufacture, and farm (in a greenhouse) all the basic necessities. Cottage industry would be encouraged; after all Mars will need everything. A new arrival could work to earn enough money to build a homestead in the outback, then quit his/her job to live off the land.

Employment: If an individual has a homestead, he won't need employment. He/she could grow food in his/her own greenhouse, cook, repair life support equipment, etc. If an individual is unemployed, the corporate employment office would offer assistance. The program I suggested was job training. Aptitude testing, then interviews with employers. Once an employer agrees to hire that individual, he/she will go through job training. Once complete, the cost of job training and the cost of living while in the training program will be treated as a loan. That loan will be paid via payroll deduction. The employer will be required to keep the employee until that loan is fully paid, but the employer could assign the employee the worst jobs in the company. And the final fall-back: every ticket to Mars includes a free return to Earth.

Air: Yes, space for an apartment building the city dome will be charged rent. That rent will pay for pressure, air recycling, heat, and all the services of a city. Think of it as property tax, but it isn't a tax, it's rent. And it may not be a dome, it may be a large building like a mall. The entrepreneur could then build apartments within that space, and charge rent to tenants. In addition to apartment rent, there would be utility bills. But again, if you build your own homestead outside the big city/town dome/building, then there won't be any rent. But you will have to build your own facilities for pressure, air, heat, etc.

I see your reasoning with this, but I think you look at corporations through rose-coloured glasses. Maybe that's how the labour market works in Canada, on a good day. But the sorts of organisations that can fund a Mars colony, in my opinion, are simply not that charitable!

I don't see how they can make profits if they are going to engage in the sort of welfare state hand-holding activities that you mention.
It would be brilliant if you are right and I am wrong, but I simply don't see how it would add up.
Recall: This organisation will have the most insane logistics cost of any corporation that every existed. Just paying for the transport of their goods to the market on earth, let alone take care of the staff would cost mind boggling sums.

I don't see how it can all be profitable, even if they end up with a situation where slabs of gold can be shoveled straight from the ground, or if super rare earth minerals are laying around on the surface...
That's why I simply can't get my head around the corporation idea, and that is after I have put my political reservations aside.

Another thing I don't get: Paying rent to live in a corporate flat?! Why?
I have personally lived in a corporate flat. They took the cost straight out of my salary. It was heavily subsidised and all the service charges were included. It was very convenient even if the flat was a bit dull. And this was a bona fide mega large corporation which anyone would have heard of. So, bollocks to paying for rubbish collection/recycling etc!  Boring humdrum on Mars.... If everyone is working for the same employer it shouldn't be necessary.

To take another example, which was a large project, although less glamorous: Socialist countries: People paid next to no rent, or no rent at all, and a very large percentage lived in flats that were provided by their employer who'd add it all up. Everything included due to the setup of the economy. Unfortunately that lead to a lot of people being irresponsible and wasteful. But on Mars, that wouldn't be an option + odds are that those living on Mars would be a lot more committed to their environment.

I am strongly against replicating the sick structure from Earth, on Mars, particularly given that Mars is an environment where you can't just walk away, and where technically not even the air is free.



terraformer wrote:

martienne,

It seems you would prefer everyone else pay for a select few elites to live in your idea of a perfect society...

Where do you get that from?  I haven't made any suggestions about who pays, because I think that's the big obstacle to Mars colonisation.
If not, we would be on Mars a long time ago. There simply isn't any financial motivation that is strong enough, or anyone who is motivated enough by any other reasons, to come up with the required billions and commit for decades/ I fear there may no solution to this problem within our generation...

I'm not expecting Mars to be a utopia. Just saying that it shouldn't be corporate hell --- been there, done that, but at least I've been in a situation to walk away. In Mars it won't be. And I know how evil corporations can be, and how they exploit people when they can get away with it. Sure, a highly educated top achiever from the developed world will probably be treated allright. But the minute you give corporations a free reign, they will figure out how to exploit everybody but the cream of the crops, and replace everybody they can for the cheapest and least troublesome alternative.

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#57 2015-10-22 16:32:35

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
Website

Re: Corporate Government

Profits: don't ship anything back to Earth. I said once set up, settlers would pay the corporation for a ticket in Earth currency, but maintenance and operations of the ship will be from the Mars economy. So once set up, the corporation continues to charge you so much money that it costs your entire life savings for just a ticket and some luggage. The corporation rakes in the profit. It'll take a while for the corporation to recover cost to set it up, but once done, it's all profit.

The corporation will be motivated to ensure setters view Mars as a desirable place to go, because their primary revenue will be from new settlers.

Employees of the corporation will be issued a corporate flat. They will get a free flat, free cafeteria food, and free basic utilities such as electricity, water, internet. With voice-over-internet-protocol (VoIP) for telephone service rather than separate telephone, and streaming video instead of cable TV. With all that free, pay will be quite low. Anyone not employed by the corporation but living in the corporate city will have to pay rent.

The corporation will provide free healthcare for their employees. The other question I asked is how to pay for healthcare for individuals who are not corporate employees. Remember, marketing to convince people to pay everything they have for just a ticket to go to Mars will be freedom. That means a homestead in the outback. So there must be some provision for them.

I will expect some people will set up separate business in the corporate city. For example, descent restaurants. Or entertainment. Corporate flats will include internet, so you can stream video to your laptop. If you want a big screen TV, you'll have to buy it. If you want to go out to a theatre, some entrepreneur will set one up. If you want a better apartment than the company issued flat, you have to pay rent for it. And someone has to build an apartment building to provide it.

I'm not saying the corporate town/city will be utopia. I'm saying it's a way to get Mars started. Better than sitting here staring at a barren red dot in the sky.

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#58 2015-10-22 16:50:59

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
Website

Re: Corporate Government

martienne wrote:

a highly educated top achiever from the developed world will probably be treated allright.

::Cough cough!:: Top achiever treated well? I wanted to be such a top achiever. I wanted to go to school as soon as I could talk. I wasn't allowed. Kindergarten started at age 5, but at that time it was nothing but daycare. Education started in grade 1; the first few months were intense, but before that first year ended I was already held back. There was no advanced learning program in my province, and there still isn't. The only option for a top achiever was to skip a grade. The harder I tried to do that, the more I was punished. They treated me as retarded because I didn't memorize well, didn't fit in like a cog in a wheel, and wasn't good at language/composition or art. When I gave an answer ahead of the class, they marked it wrong. They actually transferred me into remedial class for grade 6. I did well in math and science in junior high, and excelled in math and science in high school. However, they continued to push me into arts, and treated me as a problem because I didn't fit into arts. I was prohibited from junior achievement, prohibited from science fair. All because my grades in arts weren't what they wanted. I got a job as a computer programmer half way through first year university; only paid minimum wage but doing the sort of work a recent graduate would do. I learned a lot. It was great! But problems at university continued. Certain individuals connected to the academic community were given privileges, and they looked down at me when I asked. Fellow students hired me as a tutor for the very class I attended with them, because I understood and in those cases I could explain better than the professor or lab instructor. Yet the administration set out to do everything they could to force me to drop out. It turned out I wasn't the only one. The university president notice they made more money from each computer science student than cost the university, so was profitable. So the president wanted as many students as possible. But the department head didn't like that, so went out of his way to force as many students as he could to drop out. I did not attend parties or beer bashes, I studied and when I wasn't in lectures or working on assignments or labs, I was at work doing exactly the same thing as my studies. I worked harder than anyone else, and knew my stuff. I found out the university targeted any student who had a job as a computer programmer, trying to force them to quit. Those are the best students, the ones they should reward, but this university targeted them to force them out. When I found out about this I quit my job to focus on my studies, but they continued to try to force me out anyway.

I do not have a master degree. I don't have multiple degrees. I've had to work harder than anyone else. I did work my way to some well paying jobs with fancy titles. And did do a good job. But corporate politics shit on me anyway. I've been unemployed for a number of years. Struggling to survive.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-10-22 20:17:24)

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#59 2015-10-22 18:18:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,828

Re: Corporate Government

I am still playing catchup from the last page....

RobertDyck I agree that a privately funded mission is likely to happen in time if it becomes affordable to do. The group (you can call it a corporate) that does band together will control its destiny with in its groups via the individual contracts with the Elite that pay there way (Mars one comes to mind). Of course whom ever they contract with makes a one time profit from that groups efforts and only if there is a continual request for the same service does that provider continue to yield more profits. Its only if the group has the funds available to order more serice will they get more food, supplies ect and the proider will make more profits..

Now each Elite is a self employeed person unless there is a statement that will cause them to earn a living while on Mars from the corporate. If the corporate is the broker/holder of the tickets for the Elite and not the launch provider then yes the corporate wll make a profit on there sales to be a revenue stream for the group if its individuals decide to operate that way.

The group will make use of insitu resources to survive, to be self suffienct if possible in all of lifes conditions and needs. Plus they will make the fuel on mars for a crew members return and for any goods, samples or other items that will be returning to the corporation to make money from. Which will only continue if there is a profit. The growth of the settlement only happens if it stays affordable to newcomers that want to go. Once the population does out grow the habital area and individualistic rights and desires to have there own habitat will there be a reason for the corporation to provide for that growth but what if the Elite are do it yourselfers and can make what they need, what is there to stop them from staking there surface claim? Maybe there will be time to self create a Mars business for those there as services that each other would want by that clever do it yourselfer.
 
There is no obligation for those that do go to follow any contract once there should one or more chose to do so.

What comes to mind is an old songs lyrics... "I owe my soul to the company store"

Tom Kalbfus I can see a third world which could happen via those that are lazy and not willing to put in there fair share for the community as well as the burden of work shifting to those that are healthy if many fall ill.

martienne the only goods that an Elite would want is paid to the corporate for by the individual to be transported to Mars .

RobertDyck I love the work you have done with the Mars Homestead Project.

I understand that you started this discussion with a proposal for an advanced stage of Mars settlement but we are still in the baby step stage. The model for first landing works but its continued growth that needs to be sustained.

My up bringing with education is simular to yours for high school and failed out in the second year for an associated degree in Electronic Engineering Technology and only 30 plus years late achieved getting the associated degree in Trade and Technical Occupations.

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#60 2015-10-22 22:51:39

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

martienne wrote:

Meanwhile, Tom Kalbfus' vision is a Mars community where a billionaire can move in and build a private swimming pool that nobody else can use. Tom probably also thinks that people who don't get the right Martian health insurance should be left to wither away in illness on Mars!

What's wrong with billionaires building swimming pools on Mars? The health insurance issue is academic if you can't find a decent hospital on Mars. Anyone who goes to Mars risks being away from a state of the art hospital and thus dying on Mars of an illness that is treatable on Earth!

martienne wrote:

While you're at it: Why not charge the poor sods for the air they breathe as well? After all, it's not free on Mars! Welcome to the 51st state aka corporatist nightmare.

Well in order to be their, they must be doing something to justify the cost.

martienne wrote:

Tom's suggestion that people should pay their own trip to Mars is crazy. Unless something very revolutionary happens, we are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in todays value, for one ticket!

Unless costs are brought down substantially, a Mars colony is not happening! One way to bring down costs is to reuse the vehicle that gets you into space, hence the Mars Colonial Transporter.
mars-colonial-a.png

martienne wrote:

Another "communist" characteristic that's needed is quite significant job security for workers on Mars.
Otherwise what do you do if you are sacked or made redundant? It can happen to anyone.
If your skills aren't transferable to some other opening or if nobody wants to hire you in a capitalist / corporate environment - what do you do?

You could go back to Earth. if the return voyage is included in the ticket price, then the trip back to Earth is free!

martienne wrote:

runs things will have to either guarantee your job or some other employment, alternatively transport you back to earth for free. What's the alternative? Unemployed on Mars? On benefits? Beggar? Suicide?  (all acceptable options from Tom's perspective methinks...)

You really can't guarantee a job if you can't guarantee that someone will be able to do the job.

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#61 2015-10-23 00:26:16

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
Website

Re: Corporate Government

martienne wrote:
RobertDyck wrote:

Employment: If an individual has a homestead, he won't need employment. He/she could grow food in his/her own greenhouse, cook, repair life support equipment, etc. If an individual is unemployed, the corporate employment office would offer assistance. The program I suggested was job training. Aptitude testing, then interviews with employers. Once an employer agrees to hire that individual, he/she will go through job training. Once complete, the cost of job training and the cost of living while in the training program will be treated as a loan. That loan will be paid via payroll deduction. The employer will be required to keep the employee until that loan is fully paid, but the employer could assign the employee the worst jobs in the company. And the final fall-back: every ticket to Mars includes a free return to Earth.

I don't see how they can make profits if they are going to engage in the sort of welfare state hand-holding activities that you mention.
It would be brilliant if you are right and I am wrong, but I simply don't see how it would add up.

And I thought this system is harsh. Here in Canada there are a few layers. The federal government has Employment Insurance. Every employee pays a premium deducted from his/her paycheque. If you worked a certain minimum number of hours, then when you become unemployed you qualify to receive benefits. It will only last a certain number of weeks. Benefit per week is a fraction of what you earned when employed. When that's gone, provincial welfare will pay barely enough to keep you alive. They only pay basic bills: electricity, heat, water, a amount for rent that's about half the current rate for a bachelor/studio apartment/flat, plus $89.75 for 2 weeks "basic needs". They won't pay for telephone or cable TV or internet. They won't pay for burglar alarm monitoring. They won't pay any expenses for a car. They won't provide a bus pass or tickets. So "basic needs" has to pay for groceries plus transportation, laundry, clothing, and anything else. Typically "basic needs" goes to telephone, internet, cable TV, leaving nothing for groceries. A private charity runs a food bank, so groceries comes from the food bank. Major grocery stores have donation boxes, and sell packages of recommended donations. But most of the groceries at the food bank is dented cans, damaged boxes, unusual items that won't sell, fresh produce just days from expiration, bread that's past day-old. One grocery wholesaler donates fresh raw potatoes in bulk; volunteers at food banks package them for donation: one bread bag of potatoes per person every second week. Some church congregations donate fresh produce from their own garden, but that's seasonal. I discovered there are community bicycle shops that will repair a bicycle for free, run by volunteers. If you can get a used bicycle, you can get it repaired/maintained there. They're only open two days per week, and only a few hours each day, you have to wait a couple hours in line, but can get your bicycle fixed. Several organizations run programs to help individuals find work. Provincial welfare sends some clients there, and pays the organizations. This is an attempt to get those individuals off social assistance. And there are a few websites with job openings, one run by the federal organization that runs Employment Insurance, others commercial. Commercial websites allow those seeking work to post a resume. Employers are charged to post a job opening, job seekers are not. The provincial government owns/operates some apartment buildings with substantially reduced rent. It's only available to those in need of social assistance, and the waiting list is a couple years, but they charge the same rent that provincial welfare pays. So there are ways to survive.

What I suggested for Mars is much more harsh. All you get is a job training program, and an employer has to agree to hire you before you start. It's a loan, repaid by payroll deduction. And if an employer violates the agreement by terminating an employee before the loan is repaid, then the employer has to pay the remaining balance of the loan. That's considered a fine, and it ensures the program doesn't lose money. The only free service would be a website to post jobs, aptitude assessment, and coordinating job interviews. That's not much. Cost of job training could be structured so that the program is entirely self-funding. Corporations love doing things that look like a social service, but in reality doesn't cost them a cent.

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#62 2015-10-23 05:38:43

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

RobertDyck wrote:
martienne wrote:
RobertDyck wrote:

Employment: If an individual has a homestead, he won't need employment. He/she could grow food in his/her own greenhouse, cook, repair life support equipment, etc. If an individual is unemployed, the corporate employment office would offer assistance. The program I suggested was job training. Aptitude testing, then interviews with employers. Once an employer agrees to hire that individual, he/she will go through job training. Once complete, the cost of job training and the cost of living while in the training program will be treated as a loan. That loan will be paid via payroll deduction. The employer will be required to keep the employee until that loan is fully paid, but the employer could assign the employee the worst jobs in the company. And the final fall-back: every ticket to Mars includes a free return to Earth.

I don't see how they can make profits if they are going to engage in the sort of welfare state hand-holding activities that you mention.
It would be brilliant if you are right and I am wrong, but I simply don't see how it would add up.

And I thought this system is harsh. Here in Canada there are a few layers. The federal government has Employment Insurance. Every employee pays a premium deducted from his/her paycheque. If you worked a certain minimum number of hours, then when you become unemployed you qualify to receive benefits. It will only last a certain number of weeks.

I think an unemployment program should include a ticket back to Earth. Lets say someone loses his or her job, well he or she has until the next launch window to find another job or he or she will be sent back to Earth, this prevents a homeless population from overburdening a colony's resources, and homeless people can be taken care of much better on Earth.

Benefit per week is a fraction of what you earned when employed. When that's gone, provincial welfare will pay barely enough to keep you alive. They only pay basic bills: electricity, heat, water, a amount for rent that's about half the current rate for a bachelor/studio apartment/flat, plus $89.75 for 2 weeks "basic needs". They won't pay for telephone or cable TV or internet. They won't pay for burglar alarm monitoring. They won't pay any expenses for a car. They won't provide a bus pass or tickets. So "basic needs" has to pay for groceries plus transportation, laundry, clothing, and anything else. Typically "basic needs" goes to telephone, internet, cable TV, leaving nothing for groceries. A private charity runs a food bank, so groceries comes from the food bank. Major grocery stores have donation boxes, and sell packages of recommended donations. But most of the groceries at the food bank is dented cans, damaged boxes, unusual items that won't sell, fresh produce just days from expiration, bread that's past day-old. One grocery wholesaler donates fresh raw potatoes in bulk; volunteers at food banks package them for donation: one bread bag of potatoes per person every second week. Some church congregations donate fresh produce from their own garden, but that's seasonal. I discovered there are community bicycle shops that will repair a bicycle for free, run by volunteers. If you can get a used bicycle, you can get it repaired/maintained there. They're only open two days per week, and only a few hours each day, you have to wait a couple hours in line, but can get your bicycle fixed. Several organizations run programs to help individuals find work. Provincial welfare sends some clients there, and pays the organizations. This is an attempt to get those individuals off social assistance. And there are a few websites with job openings, one run by the federal organization that runs Employment Insurance, others commercial. Commercial websites allow those seeking work to post a resume. Employers are charged to post a job opening, job seekers are not. The provincial government owns/operates some apartment buildings with substantially reduced rent. It's only available to those in need of social assistance, and the waiting list is a couple years, but they charge the same rent that provincial welfare pays. So there are ways to survive.

What I suggested for Mars is much more harsh. All you get is a job training program, and an employer has to agree to hire you before you start. It's a loan, repaid by payroll deduction. And if an employer violates the agreement by terminating an employee before the loan is repaid, then the employer has to pay the remaining balance of the loan. That's considered a fine, and it ensures the program doesn't lose money. The only free service would be a website to post jobs, aptitude assessment, and coordinating job interviews. That's not much. Cost of job training could be structured so that the program is entirely self-funding. Corporations love doing things that look like a social service, but in reality doesn't cost them a cent.

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#63 2015-10-24 15:52:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,828

Re: Corporate Government

Tom Kalbfus I see some of the points that RobertDyck is trying to make on the issues of unemployment, a homeless population as it effect the colony's resources.

While you are not employeed living in your own homestead what do you do when there could be taxation later or for when something breaks that is critical to survival what happens then as you have not been earning a wage?

A homeless population is the worst that could happen to a person that stakes everything that they own on making a new life in the frontier as they do not have a fall back position with no money.

So what should be the safety net that is the means to solve these issue?

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#64 2015-10-24 17:40:43

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

SpaceNut wrote:

Tom Kalbfus I see some of the points that RobertDyck is trying to make on the issues of unemployment, a homeless population as it effect the colony's resources.

While you are not employeed living in your own homestead what do you do when there could be taxation later or for when something breaks that is critical to survival what happens then as you have not been earning a wage?

A homeless population is the worst that could happen to a person that stakes everything that they own on making a new life in the frontier as they do not have a fall back position with no money.

So what should be the safety net that is the means to solve these issue?

As I said before, part of the cost of a ticket to Mars should be the ticket back, and a temporary safety net, since one has to wait for the right planetary alignments when traveling between planets, so lets say the ticket buys an insurance policy as part of the ticket getting him to Mars, that insurance policy takes care of food, board, and life support until arrangements for the trip back can be made. The good part is travel to Earth is much cheaper than getting to Mars from Earth. This keeps the population of homeless people down. Typically it will be months until the next launch opportunity back to Earth, during that time, a Martian colonist will have time to look for another job before being deported, if he finds the job, he is not deported, the employer then pays into the fund that was depleted by the unemployed person. A person could also simply retire on Mars, he or she just has to prove that he or she has the financial means to support him to herself while on Mars, if he begins dipping into public welfare, he gets in a waiting list for deportation back to Earth, is that so bad? I think its reasonable.

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#65 2015-10-24 17:48:08

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
Website

Re: Corporate Government

Tom, I said that the final fall-back is that each ticket to Mars includes a return trip back to Earth. So you're saying the same thing I am. But I wouldn't call it "deportation". This would be voluntary. The alternative is get out of the town/city dome/building, and live on your own. How long can you live in the outback of Mars? If you can do it, then fine. If not, accept a job with an employer. If you can't get that, then return to Earth.

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#66 2015-10-24 19:43:01

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,062
Website

Re: Corporate Government

If you're going to be paying $500k for a ticket to Mars, then adding $200k for the company to invest so they can pay to keep you alive shouldn't be such a problem. Yes, it increases the cost of the ticket, but it makes sure you don't have to come back.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#67 2015-10-25 14:54:30

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

I don't think 200k will take care of you for the rest of your life, not even on Mars!

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#68 2015-10-26 06:19:41

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,062
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Re: Corporate Government

It should if you've already paid for the infrastructure, and it's yielding 4% a year. Make it a requirement that anyone going to Mars has to have an $8k basic income in addition to the housing and infrastructure they're already paying for. That should be enough for the corporation to provide a subsistence level to people, if Mars can produce what is needed.

EDIT: Especially if it's being reinvested until it's needed. Perhaps put it up as a bond, where if it's not used within 20 years you get your money back plus interest, and you can cash it out earlier for emergency situations such as having to return to Terra?

Last edited by Terraformer (2015-10-26 06:21:20)


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#69 2015-10-26 13:37:30

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

200k wont even get you a decent sized home in Westchester. You probably need over one million dollars to retire, 4% of that is $40,000 a year, not sure that is enough for living on Mars.

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#70 2015-10-26 18:05:37

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,828

Re: Corporate Government

Its one thing to take the trip when you are young as it allows the bond to mature with lots of interest but what about those that go when they are older near retirement age since it takes that long to build up the funds for such a trip for in the likelyness that it would be needed for the return trip home.

One thing that also must be thought of is that the longer one stays then the more care for rehab must be given to allow them to set foot on Earth once more as they will have been in reduced gravity and we do not know how it will effect the individual after a long term stay.

Also the older one gets the more likely point is that they might want to be buried back here on earth of which getting fit might be very difficult leading to the question of what was the cause of death if it happens once here.

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#71 2015-10-27 11:29:58

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

I don't get why anyone would want to be buried on Earth, where your body would decompose, I think with Mars you could go the Buck Rogers route. Mars is relatively easy to get off of, and you could use a high efficiency rocket to send you remains to the outer Solar System.
spacecraft_ranger3_screen4.jpg

If you send a human body out past Saturn's orbit, it can be contained in liquid nitrogen indefinitely. You could send it in a 1000 year orbit, maybe by the year 3015 they will have the technology to reverse the freezing process. I don't have much faith in the afterlife, I have been disappointed and lied to too many times before, yet I just can't accept my own death without grasping for the tiniest straws of hope. If what I am is the way my atoms are arranged, I think I would want to preserve the information they represent so I may be recreated, and I can thus continue my consciousness.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2015-10-27 11:31:37)

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#72 2015-10-27 11:31:05

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

Its hard to tell which pictures would show and which would not.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2015-10-27 11:32:42)

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#73 2015-10-27 12:47:28

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
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Re: Corporate Government

You forgot to use the BBCode tag for an image. You need to put [img]in front of the URL, and[/img] after. And ensure there is no space between the tags. The only reason they show in this post instead of becoming an image, is the spaces and lack of a valid URL.

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#74 2015-10-27 19:00:15

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

RobertDyck wrote:

You forgot to use the BBCode tag for an image. You need to put [img]in front of the URL, and[/img] after. And ensure there is no space between the tags. The only reason they show in this post instead of becoming an image, is the spaces and lack of a valid URL.

I checked there are no spaces between the img tags and this:
http://www.tvacres.com/images/spacecraf … creen4.jpg
I'll try again here:
spacecraft_ranger3_screen4.jpg
No dice.
Space is a very good place to keep people frozen however, the Buck Rogers show was right about that.
Here's another one:
buckrogers0.jpg

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2015-10-27 19:04:22)

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#75 2015-10-27 21:07:36

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,748
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Re: Corporate Government

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

I checked there are no spaces between the img tags and this:
http://www.tvacres.com/images/spacecraf … creen4.jpg
I'll try again here:
http://www.tvacres.com/images/spacecraf … creen4.jpg
No dice.
Space is a very good place to keep people frozen however, the Buck Rogers show was right about that.
Here's another one:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Maghh7RQLZw/S … ogers0.jpg

When I quote your message, I can see what you typed. Your first one has a url tag, not an img tag. Your second one doesn't have any tag. But your third one does. I don't know why some images show up without a tag, none should. Just add the img tag always. Here's how your image looks with the tag.
spacecraft_ranger3_screen4.jpg

And because you chose that show...
DuckDodgers-72269.png

::Edit:: Your images shows up after I opened a tab with just that image. So it's in my browser cache. But when I open a different browser, it doesn't show. Some websites don't like you to embed their images in a different web page. tyacres must be one.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-10-27 21:10:54)

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