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#26 2019-01-25 21:57:45

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

Not to worry Planetary disk planet developement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoplanetary_disk

of course that is what defines how we see ours

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_system

http://www.astronomy.com/news/2018/10/h … -formed-in

https://www.space.com/42994-weird-binar … -disk.html

Of course its going to all depend on what the disk is made of when the sun within it stars to shine.

https://scitechdaily.com/early-chemistr … mospheres/

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#27 2019-01-28 14:31:42

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

This could have a relationship to the topic.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith … f22fe93b2a
Quote:

Space Is Full Of Planets, And Most Of Them Don't Even Have Stars

Based on what we know of stars, gravity, and cosmic evolution, we can make a ballpark estimate of the total number of planets in the Universe, and it likely outnumbers our stars by anywhere from a factor of 100 to 100,000. Space is full of planets, and most of them don't even have stars.

This then suggests some of things to me.

-If the human race chooses to go interstellar, and pesuming they will ever have the means, rogue planets should be sprinkled in the VOID between stars.

-As for our solar system, I have to wonder about ballistic capture of such a rogue planet into a moving solar system.  Should our solar system overtake or cross paths with such an object, is capture possible?  And then if you have a multi-object rogue system, can one of the objects more easily be captured in some situations, perhaps flinging the other ones away.

-And I have asked the question before, without any response whatsoever, what happens if rogue planets wander into a star nursery interstellar cloud?  Can that seed condensation of stars and planets?  Solar systems being so unlike each other in general, this could be part of why it seems that they are unlike.  Randomness of condensation.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-28 15:42:41)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#28 2019-01-28 19:15:36

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

The dust disks that suround new suns is something that we have imaged The moment a planet is born: Astronomers spot a star's dust cloud give birth to an icy world

3871D09A00000578-3792831-image-a-10_1474038815826.jpg

Its easy when you can see the disk in this direction and not so easy edge on...

GW meantioned that to view ours we need to launch above the solar systems plain.

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#29 2019-01-28 21:45:52

Void
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

I have recently read that the amount of material found in the disks is not nearly enough to build the planets that are then found.  So, either more material enters the juvenile star system later, or their methods of measure need correcting.

I there are in fact 100 to 100,000 more planets than can be found orbiting stars, then our chances of having interlopers cross through our solar system are considerably larger than previously expected.  I am not saying it is so, but what if Venus had been struck at some point? What if Uranus tilted from such?  As I say, I am not making unfounded claims, this is just how I then better put connections together later, if there are any such connections to be found.

If there are such a large amount of planets, then this must change notions of interstellar travel.  The VOIDS smile between stars are not as empty as presumed, and could also be cluttered with dwarf planets, asteroids, and rocks & ice balls ejected from star systems.

This is good if you want to bridge to the stars slowly.  It may be bad if you were thinking of traveling very fast.

My understanding is that an Earth sized rocky planet either ejected from a star system or formed outside a star system would have an atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium as heavy as an ocean.  And that would be enough insulation to keep the surface melted in some cases from geothermal heat.

I suppose a very advanced society would figure out how to use such worlds.  But I will require some real adaptations.

By the way I understand you cannot afford to jump off on unsubstantiated notions.  No problem.

Done


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#30 2019-01-29 16:52:51

Void
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Posts: 3,476

Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

This material may be true.  Seems logical that it could be an observation of a small object in the Kuiper belt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht6S0WLq-w0
https://www.space.com/43154-kuiper-belt … -link.html

Star formation:
https://www.space.com/43154-kuiper-belt … -link.html

I really do wonder, if as previous materials which suggest planets are 100 to 100,000 times as common as those orbiting a star, why that factor is not considered in the process of star formation.

So far we have materials from the big band contributing.  I believe that would for the most part be Hydrogen and Helium?

The output from exploded stars, and the solar winds of old stars like our sun.  Also some heavy elements from the collisions of collapsed stars, Neutron stars.  Gold perhaps.

We have a story about a star collapsing from gas and dust.  But if space if full of ejected planets, shouldn't we also expect smaller objects also to have been ejected, probably in vast numbers?

The gas and dust will collect in cold spots in space driven there by the pressure of photons from stars, or attracted there perhaps by existing mass, such as dark matter.

I presume that the "Chunky" stuff is not very much pushed by starlight into these would be nurseries, but I do suppose a random drift of them on many directions would eventually pass them through the gathering mass of gas and dust.  Once there I would expect them to loose relative momentum to the gas and dust, and to collect dust, and maybe even gas to themselves.

So I think they will have some ability to seed the star forming process.

And as I imagine it, once these stars begin to form, any objects orbiting in the ball of gas and dust that surrounds the forming star will have a tendency to become one with the rotation of the gas and dust.  And I am not certain about it but I would imagine that as the sphere around the forming star turns into a disc, these objects might be pulled into the disk.  If they orbit perpendicular to the disk, then they will pass through it twice each orbit, and collect more mass and also deviate in their orbit towards the inclination of the disc.  I think.
This might work even better during the intermediate time where the sphere is changing to a disc.

And in the stellar nursery, at certain points of time, these proto stars will be spitting chunks of condensed matter out at each other.

…..

A side thought is that this would promote interstellar panspermia.

The way it might work is an Earth sized planet with primitive life on it, perhaps under it's surface where it might be wet from geothermal heat, would be ejected from a star, and would pass into interstellar space.  It would then collect a Hydrogen and Helium atmosphere, which would become as heavy as our oceans, and that would provide a greenhouse effect which might even allow liquid water on the planets surface.  But that is not necessary.  As long as geothermal heat can sustain life in the lithosphere of the planet, transmission would be possible.  But lets be optimistic.  Suppose you had such an Earth like planet with geothermal heat and a atmosphere of Hydrogen and Helium sufficient to allow for H20 based wet surface life.  What if it wanders into a soon to be star nursery?  What if there are other chunks in there?  The chunk objects then collide as their obits will not be harmonious.  You get ejection of infected matter into the nursery, and randomly the inclusion of the infection into newly forming objects.  Some to become stars that will sterilize what life is in them, and some to become planets which will host life also.  And the great majority of these infected objects will be ejected from that proto star system being spit at the stars siblings.  And eventually some of the infected objects will leave the nursery.  If they are of sufficient size, they will have the chance of impregnating future nurseries with life.

If this were true, then life may have originated long ago, and a very far distance not just in time by of course distance/motion.


I don't rely on income by pleasing any people of orthodoxy, so I can dare to be weird.  (Or at least I think I can get away with it.)


Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-29 17:16:21)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#31 2019-01-29 21:30:03

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,235

Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Missi … d_999.html

astronomers have detected a 1.3 km radius body at the edge of the Solar System. Kilometer sized bodies like the one discovered have been predicted to exist for more than 70 years. These objects acted as an important step in the planet formation process between small initial amalgamations of dust and ice and the planets we see today.

The Edgeworth-Kuiper Belt is a collection of small celestial bodies located beyond Neptune's orbit. Edgeworth-Kuiper Belt Objects with radii from 1 kilometer to several kilometers have been predicted to exist, but they are too distant, small, and dim for even world-leading telescopes, like the Subaru Telescope, to observe directly.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41550-018-0685-8

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#32 2019-02-08 20:55:38

SpaceNut
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

I sort of think we are looking in the wrog place for the unknown planet 10 even with the clues of strange asteriods that are not on the orbital plane of the planets.

Asteroid from 'Rare Species' Sighted in the Cosmic Wild

ztf-asteroid-2019-aq3-hg.jpg

Its a fast mover with an orbital period of just 165 days.

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#33 2019-02-27 16:38:24

Void
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

Well, Tom Kalbfus, yes there may be a SuperEarth in our solar system. 
https://phys.org/news/2019-02-planet.html
Quote:

Corresponding with the three-year anniversary of their announcement hypothesizing the existence of a ninth planet in the solar system, Caltech's Mike Brown and Konstantin Batygin are publishing a pair of papers analyzing the evidence for Planet Nine's existence.

The papers offer new details about the suspected nature and location of the planet, which has been the subject of an intense international search ever since Batygin and Brown's 2016 announcement.
The first, titled "Orbital Clustering in the Distant Solar System," was published in The Astronomical Journal on January 22. The Planet Nine hypothesis is founded on evidence suggesting that the clustering of objects in the Kuiper Belt, a field of icy bodies that lies beyond Neptune, is influenced by the gravitational tugs of an unseen planet. It has been an open question as to whether that clustering is indeed occurring, or whether it is an artifact resulting from bias in how and where Kuiper Belt objects are observed.
To assess whether observational bias is behind the apparent clustering, Brown and Batygin developed a method to quantify the amount of bias in each individual observation, then calculated the probability that the clustering is spurious. That probability, they found, is around one in 500.
"Though this analysis does not say anything directly about whether Planet Nine is there, it does indicate that the hypothesis rests upon a solid foundation," says Brown, the Richard and Barbara Rosenberg Professor of Planetary Astronomy.
The second paper is titled "The Planet Nine Hypothesis," and is an invited review that will be published in the next issue of Physics Reports. The paper provides thousands of new computer models of the dynamical evolution of the distant solar system and offers updated insight into the nature of Planet Nine, including an estimate that it is smaller and closer to the sun than previously suspected. Based on the new models, Batygin and Brown—together with Fred Adams and Juliette Becker (BS '14) of the University of Michigan—concluded that Planet Nine has a mass of about five times that of the earth and has an orbital semimajor axis in the neighborhood of 400 astronomical units (AU), making it smaller and closer to the sun than previously suspected—and potentially brighter. Each astronomical unit is equivalent to the distance between the center of Earth and the center of the sun, or about 149.6 million kilometers.

"At five Earth masses, Planet Nine is likely to be very reminiscent of a typical extrasolar super-Earth," says Batygin, an assistant professor of planetary science and Van Nuys Page Scholar. Super-Earths are planets with a mass greater than Earth's, but substantially less than that of a gas giant. "It is the solar system's missing link of planet formation. Over the last decade, surveys of extrasolar planets have revealed that similar-sized planets are very common around other sun-like stars. Planet Nine is going to be the closest thing we will find to a window into the properties of a typical planet of our galaxy."
Batygin and Brown presented the first evidence that there might be a giant planet tracing a bizarre, highly elongated orbit through the outer solar system on January 20, 2016. That June, Brown and Batygin followed up with more details, including observational constraints on the planet's location along its orbit.
Over the next two years, they developed theoretical models of the planet that explained other known phenomena, such as why some Kuiper Belt objects have a perpendicular orbit with respect to the plane of the solar system. The resulting models increased their confidence in Planet Nine's existence.
After the initial announcement, astronomers around the world, including Brown and Batygin, began searching for observational evidence of the new planet. Although Brown and Batygin have always accepted the possibility that Planet Nine might not exist, they say that the more they examine the orbital dynamics of the solar system, the stronger the evidence supporting it seems.
"My favorite characteristic of the Planet Nine hypothesis is that it is observationally testable," Batygin says. "The prospect of one day seeing real images of Planet Nine is absolutely electrifying. Although finding Planet Nine astronomically is a great challenge, I'm very optimistic that we will image it within the next decade."

I would be a bit bored with a Mini-Neptune, so this sounds better.  I even do wonder some things;
-Was Planet 9 pushed out there by Jupiter and Saturn during the great bombardment.
-Were some other planets ejected from the solar system entirely during that process?
-Might a SuperEarth out their support a Hydrogen/Helium atmosphere overlying a cold Nitrogen dominated lower layer?
-Of course, wondering if it might have moons, and what they could be like.

If it were a binary object then it could be composed of two objects, each less than 5 Earth masses, which could be really nice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-02-27 16:48:03)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#34 2019-02-27 18:09:55

SpaceNut
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Posts: 19,235

Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrasolar_planets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p … exoplanets

http://www.sun.org/images/sizes-of-stars

I guess what I am getting at is if we can not see ours then why not look at others to see where to look for a 5 earth mass exoplanet around a simular size star as ours.

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#35 2019-02-27 22:23:18

Void
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

Lots of room for discovery in this I would think Spacenut.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#36 2019-02-28 19:36:28

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,235

Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

If a planet has that much mass and with the planetoids come to close there would be less of them in orbits all alone so I think its farther out if its that large if its in the orbital plane. Which makes me think that its not since many of them are inclined quite a bit.

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#37 2019-03-08 20:10:19

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

More support for Planet Nine

solar-system-to-scale-planet-nine-9-hg.jpg

The Planet Nine hypothesis is founded on evidence suggesting that the clustering of objects in the Kuiper Belt, a field of icy bodies that lies beyond Neptune, is influenced by the gravitational tugs of an unseen planet.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3 … af051/meta

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#38 2019-05-23 19:00:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

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#39 2019-10-01 17:26:37

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,101

Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

For SpaceNut re topic ...

Just in time for Halloween (on Earth) we have a new theory of Planet 9 ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/planet-9-act … 00521.html

(th)

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#40 2019-10-01 18:44:10

SpaceNut
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

Thanks for the Black hole possibility tahanson43206, as it does merit further investigation in light that we have recently found several small black holes and huge jupiter planets around tiny dwarf stars. Its one where if the mass of the black hole and its distance from our universe should be detectable from a distance like the new horizon and voyager probes that are still functioning.

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#41 2020-07-09 21:16:20

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

These dark icy wrlds are the key to finding the elusive planet x. The collective power of the solar system's dark, icy bodies with nicknames like Sedna, Biden and The Goblin, each of which span several hundred miles across.
solar-system-detached-objects-sedna-biden-goblin-hg.jpg

https://dx.doi.org/10.3847/1538-3881/ab962f

http://www.colorado.edu/news

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#42 2020-07-11 20:17:18

SpaceNut
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

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#43 2020-07-11 20:33:20

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 485

Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

Would a stellar mass black hole noticeably alter the centre of gravity of the solar system?  I would have thought that the orbits of the planets would have been noticeable disturbed.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#44 2020-07-12 07:29:28

tahanson43206
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

For Calliban re #43

Black holes do not have to be stellar sized.  It should be possible to find references.  My recollection is that there are many scenarios in which black holes can exist with less than stellar mass.

Edit#1: The citations Google found seem to generally support Calliban's expectation that a black hole would be of stellar mass.  However, the lead off citation does show evidence that black holes are thought (by some) to be (theoretically) possible.

The problem I'm having is I've read so much science fiction, at this point I am having difficulty separating imagination used in stories from imagination used in physics to try to understand the Universe.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-07-12 07:46:16)

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#45 2020-07-12 11:29:51

SpaceNut
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

The inclination orbits of the planetoids that have distance from the sun indicates something caused them to not be in the orbital plane along with the rest of them. The limitations of a black hole is related to the speed of light and mass energy same as a nuclear bomb just prior to explosion.

But this is also where gravity equations also are taken into play so if the mass is to small but still is a black hole it just does not have the pulling power required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_black_hole

In the end we are trying to estimate the size based of from the mass that its moving...
http://chandra.harvard.edu/edu/formal/math/7Page81.pdf

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#46 2020-08-08 09:49:39

SpaceNut
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Re: The 10th or is it the 9th Planet, is there a Super-Earth in our Solar?

We have been mapping our solar system to show where it ends and interspace begins.
So if there a dark mass out there we will find it.
Uncovering the shape of the Solar Systemheliosphere-solar-system-graphic-representation-hg.jpg

Scientists have developed a new prediction of the shape of the bubble surrounding our solar system using a model developed with data from NASA missions.

All the planets of our solar system are encased in a magnetic bubble, carved out in space by the Sun's constantly outflowing material, the solar wind. Outside this bubble is the interstellar medium - the ionized gas and magnetic field that fills the space between stellar systems in our galaxy. One question scientists have tried to answer for years is on the shape of this bubble, which travels through space as our Sun orbits the center of our galaxy. Traditionally, scientists have thought of the heliosphere as a comet shape, with a rounded leading edge, called the nose, and a long tail trailing behind.

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