New Mars Forums

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I don't know how this will ultimately be resolved. The rebels in east Ukraine won't win. The vast majority of people there want to remain Ukraine. The rebellion will be squashed, it's just a question of how many people will be hurt in the process. But my first question is Crimea.

Crimea isn't like any other part of Ukraine. It wasn't part of Ukraine when the Soviet Union absorbed it. You could argue the Russia should never have given it to them. But there were several problems with the so-called referendum. Russian troops invaded, not from Russia but from Russian navy bases in Crimea. They surrounded Ukrainian military bases, capturing them. Crimea was captured by the military first. After that, before the referendum, Russian troops did retreat back to their bases, but pro-Russian militias controlled the streets. Police or Ukrainian officials were not in charge, in fact Ukrainian election observers were not even allowed in Crimea. Russian troops raided a Ukrainian oil field outside Crimea the day before the referendum. And that same day the Russian military engaged in a major exercise on the border with Ukraine. Ballots were not secret, everyone could see how a voter had voted. And pro-Russian gunmen stood outside the door of every voting location. A giant "X" was painted on the house of every ethnic Tartar. So everything about the referendum was bogus.

But there was so much support for Russia, that if the referendum was done correctly, there would probably still be more than 2/3rd.

If Crimea were to join Russia legitimately, then all Ukrainian military bases in Crimea should have remained Ukrainian. Russia had rented land for their navy bases, Ukraine could now rent land for theirs. But that didn't happen. Russia just took all Ukrainian military bases, including ships, helicopters, fighter jets, tanks, armoured personnel carriers, assault rifles, bullets, everything military. Furthermore, my friend in West Ukraine pointed out a news report that said Russia took one trillion "griven". That's his spelling, Wikipedia says their currency is hryvnia or hryvnya, but correctly spelled in their alphabet as гривня. That was money in banks in Crimea. The quoted news report claims Russia refuses to return it. Based on today's exchange rate, that's $91 Billion Canadian dollars, or $84 Billion US dollars.

But I think more valuable are navy ships. Quoting Wikipedia

According to Navy Commander Vice Admiral Yuriy Ilyin, at the beginning of 2013, the fleet had 11 warships fully ready to perform complex tasks and ten aircraft and 31 supply vessels in working order.

As of March 24, 2014, most of the Ukrainian ships in Sevastopol were taken by the Russian Black Sea Fleet, including several aircraft and other equipment.

So now what? Reasonable resolution would be Russia keeps Crimea, but gives back the Ukranian navy, and applies the money from banks to Ukrainian debt. Someone I don't see that happening. President Obama keeps talking about Russia giving back Crimea, but I don't see that ever happening.

As for the rest of Ukraine, it's industry was a major part of the Russia military-industrial complex. The new president has already given notice that Ukraine is leaving the Commonwealth of Independent States, which was the organization of former Soviet countries. Russia will want to retain that industry. As a businessman, Ukraine's president understands the need for business. Could be he'll keep that work. But if Ukraine were to try to cut off Russia entirely, then the trouble won't end.

I want a nice happy world, no cold war. Everybody just happy. Then my house is safe. And we could use Energia to go to Mars.

How can you make peace with a pirate nation? Should a bounty be placed on each of the Russian officers that followed Putin's orders for piracy? Maybe Russia should adopt the "Jolly Roger" as their national flag. We really can't have a trading partner who steals. If Russia wants to get along with us, it should stop stealing, the money Ukraine owes Russia is forfeit because of all the stealing Russia is doing. If something is produced in a captured Ukrainian factory that is run by the Russians, should we be buying it? if we do that, then Russia is profiting from theft, and is so motivated to steal more. Theft can be very profitable if you are allowed to steal your neighbors stuff and sell it at a profit at your neighbor's cost!

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Details
Returned to Ukrainian navy:
1 Corvette (plus 1 under construction)
1 Fast attack vessel (missile boat)
1 Landing craft tank

Status unknown:
2 Corvettes (scheduled to be returned)
1 Patrol boat
1 Landing craft
2 Diving vessels
1 Transport barge
1 Research vessel
1 Minesweeper
1 Command ship

Still Ukrainian (was in Crete during Crimea invasion):
1 Frigate

Sounds a lot more valuable than the money in Crimea banks.

::Edit:: Response by individual in West Ukraine...

All stuff in very bad conditions, Russians broke everything that could be broken. In addiction it was very old before.

Maybe we should keep track of the individual Russian soldiers that did this. Get as many pictures of Russians doing acts of destruction as we can and circulate their images on Interpol. They'll never be able to leave Russia again, and if they do, maybe someone will arrest them, and they can say they were just following orders! Maybe we can bring the victims in contact with these soldiers in a court of law, how do you think that will go?

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

That other forum has a lot of Canadian soldiers, most retired. One responded...

Typical work and duty of Russian Boarding parties.

How would Interpol deal with Standard-Operating-Procedures? Like I said, it's a mess. At least Russia has given some ships back. Damaged, but returned.

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

So today:
1. Russia prepares law so-called "About occupied Russian territories". In this law - East and South parts of Ukraine are called occupied by Ukraine Russian territories. Vladimir Gerenovsky says that all lands where was Soviet Union's flag, must have Russian flag.
2. Russian media said that East Ukrainian kids (200) went to Crimea till everything will calm down. That's not true.
3. Ukrainian border police allowed to send back bodies of Russian soldiers. "We don't need fertilizers"
4. Separatists robbed the biggest shop in Donezk -  "Metro". There were fund 5 dead bodies.
5. Polls say that 49% of Russian citizens are negative to Ukraine.
6. On 7-th of June Poroshenko will become the president of Ukraine.
7. Russians are looking for people, who will be ready to take part in some actions on East and South Ukraine. They make groups of these guys and send them to Russia  where are training camps.
8. About yesterdays action near Donezk main government building: guys from DNR were kicked out by another group of Separatists.
9. Families started moving from East Ukraine with home stuff.

About kids - government confirms, that's true. 210 kids went there for summer vacations with support of municipal government. Fucking war, chaos.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

That other forum has a lot of Canadian soldiers, most retired. One responded...

Typical work and duty of Russian Boarding parties.

How would Interpol deal with Standard-Operating-Procedures? Like I said, it's a mess. At least Russia has given some ships back. Damaged, but returned.

Ukraine hasn't attacked Russia, so why are Russian soldiers acting like pirates and vandals? Should we be holding individual Russian soldiers responsible for these acts, and maybe sometime after Putin is no longer in power we could say "Gotcha" slap the cuffs on them and haul them off to jail, should they ever go outside of Russia? Should Ukraine hire bounty hunters to go into Russia and kidnap them dragging them outside of Russia in a box so they may face justice? Putin is well protected, but not so the average Russian grunt, maybe we should make him pay the price for following Putin's orders.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

So today:
1. Russia prepares law so-called "About occupied Russian territories". In this law - East and South parts of Ukraine are called occupied by Ukraine Russian territories. Vladimir Gerenovsky says that all lands where was Soviet Union's flag, must have Russian flag.
2. Russian media said that East Ukrainian kids (200) went to Crimea till everything will calm down. That's not true.
3. Ukrainian border police allowed to send back bodies of Russian soldiers. "We don't need fertilizers"
4. Separatists robbed the biggest shop in Donezk -  "Metro". There were fund 5 dead bodies.
5. Polls say that 49% of Russian citizens are negative to Ukraine.
6. On 7-th of June Poroshenko will become the president of Ukraine.
7. Russians are looking for people, who will be ready to take part in some actions on East and South Ukraine. They make groups of these guys and send them to Russia  where are training camps.
8. About yesterdays action near Donezk main government building: guys from DNR were kicked out by another group of Separatists.
9. Families started moving from East Ukraine with home stuff.

About kids - government confirms, that's true. 210 kids went there for summer vacations with support of municipal government. Fucking war, chaos.

What percentage of Russians are afraid of dying in a nuclear war? Where are all the antinuclear groups in Russia protesting this? Antinuke groups and pacifists are always everywhere except where they may be useful, like in Russia trying to stop Russian aggression! Remember the movie The Day After? How come no one ever made a movie about a Russian city getting nuked and what would happen to Russian citizens in the event of a nuclear war. Hollywood don't seem interested in producing such a movie, they seem to think only Americans would die in a nuclear war. The Day after never showed any Russians dying or suffering from radiation poisoning, nope I guess they're immune. Not what do I think of those 49% or Russians that would gladly sacrifice their families and themselves for the greater glory of Russia's leaders? Maybe that poll wasn't conducted scientifically. How many Russians think Putin might get them in a nuclear war, just by pushing a little too hard against the West? How many times are the Russian People going to allow Putin to "roll the dice" and risk everything they have just to get a little bit of extra land?

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Tom, you're tiresome. I answered that. So I'll quote my own post from earlier in this same discussion thread.

Tom, you keep trying to win. You sound like some Americans, who expect the American culture will "win" and spread throughout the world. Or at least "win" supremacy in the world. To quote the movie Highlander: "There can be only one". You just don't get it. The world will not tolerate just one superpower. It doesn't matter who it is, there can never be only one. The only way the world tolerated two superpowers was by playing one off against the other. Frustrated that whenever you try to exert power, some small country used the Soviet Union to subvert your authority? That's on purpose. That's so neither the US nor Soviet Union actually have any authority. After the Soviet collapsed, something happened that I didn't expect. A non-government organization rose to oppose US culture and US military authority. That was Al Quaeda. I don't approve, and didn't expect a terrorist organization like that, but it demonstrates the principle that there can never be "only one". However, once they did start escalating conflicts with the US military, I did predict they would eventually attack US soil. They did; they attempted a truck bombing in the garage of the World Trade Center. After that, I predicted they would keep trying until they did serious damage to that building, preferably bringing it down. In March 2001 I talked to a friend of mine, we brain-stormed the problem over coffee. We predicted that Al Quaeda would use box cutter knives to highjack a 757, slam it into the World Trade Center, and this attack would occur during working hours on a working day in September 2001. Is that close enough? That was 6 months before the attack. Of course we weren't the only ones. A PBS documentary covered a senior FBI researcher who also predicted Al Quaeda would attack that building, and he was investigating, and in direct contact with Condoleezza Rice. George W. Bush claimed no one could have predicted it; but everyone did.

So now you are surprised that Putin is threatened? We've heard everyone talking about Russia as an ex-superpower. That's insulting, and disrespectful. And NATO has gobbled up not only Warsaw Pact allies, but former Republics of the Soviet Union. Remember Putin was born during the Soviet Union, he sees that as his country, not just Russia. Here is a map of NATO expansion. And a small one showing NATO and Warsaw Pact during the cold war; to be precise, from 1961-1968. Notice absolutely all non-Soviet countries, and now some Soviet republics are part of NATO. Why wouldn't Putin feel threatened?

From Russia's point of view, America and NATO are taking their land. They've taken all Warsaw Pact allies, now they're taking land of the Soviet Union. And not just land, but resources and strategic capabilities. Ukraine has major industry. They manufactured ICBMs, tanks, APCs, navy ships, military aircraft, etc. Most in east and south Ukraine, but the Antonov aircraft company is right in Kyiv. From Russia's perspective, the West is incrementally taking all that from them. It's a major threat.

But the other point is most Ukrainians see their country as conquered by Russia in the 1920s. Millions died in Holodomor. They want to ensure Russia never does that again. They want freedom from Russia. But many Russians don't see it that way. Especially those who watch TV news, read newspapers, and otherwise consume propaganda. They view Ukraine as part of the Soviet Union, and the military-industrial complex in Ukraine as a major part of Russia's.

I am trying to argue for peace. Then there's no need for military equipment. All that stuff manufactured in Ukraine is nothing more than big, expensive toys. So let Ukraine remain neutral. Let business in Ukraine sell weapons, equipment, and munitions to Russia. After all, that's what a lot of the "Oligarchs" in east Ukraine want. They want Russia to remain a customer willing to purchase multiple billions of dollars of expensive stuff. Fine, so let them. The conflict is about money and power. So let them have money. Then there's no longer anything to fight against. As long as the paradyme is commerce and not military conflict, then all that military stuff is a liability, not an asset.

Another issue is bad behavior of the American government. One of Putin's arguments is that America is being a hypocrit. America is using military force to just take things, so why bitch when Russia fights back? Putin has argued the CIA interfered with Ukraine, stirring them up to rebel against the previous president's attempt to join the Eurasian Economic Union. That's Russia's copy of the EU, based on the same rules, but only former Soviet states. And the CIA did. How much influence they actually had is dabatable. But more importantly, America has been using drones to murder people they don't like. Murder. Not arrest an accused and bring him/her to a fair trial, what they're doing is shooting a missile from a drone to just kill people. That's murder. And there's been a lot more of this under Obama than George W. Bush.

I'm not justifying what Russia did. What I'm saying is two wrongs don't make a right. But to understand what's going on, you have to look at it the issue from your opponent's point of view. I'm horrified by what Russia did, and is continuing to do. But you have to realize, America has been behaving badly. So badly that Russia feels forced to do what they're doing now.

All of your chest pounding. All your claims that "America is wonderful, Russia is the devil incarnate." All that demonstrates you have accepted all the propaganda in the United States. And yes, there is propaganda here. Stop watching Fox News. Try watching MSNBC instead. Fox has pro-Republican propaganda. MSNBC has pro-Democrat propaganda. Some of the stuff from MSNBC can be very refreshing, other stuff tiresome. But if you've listened to nothing but Fox news, then you need de-programming. Once you can become non-partisan regarding your own country's political parties, then try watching news on RT.COM, which is Russian news in English language. Yes, it has Russia propaganda. But will help you identify what's propaganda in American news.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

If Obama is murdering people with drones, then why would Fox News, if it is biased in favor of Republicans give Obama favorable coverage for that?

Besides what would it take to apprehend terrorists suspects in countries that aren't cooperating? Wouldn't it take an invasion or at least a major incursion? There would be fighting between armed forces while our troops move into the country to surround the terrorist suspects and take them alive, man while a lot of soldiers will be dying as the battle progresses, those of the host country hiding the terrorists and some of those o our own soldiers. A lot of people will be coming home in body bags or not coming home at all to take those terrorist suspects alive. Do you really feel it is worth that loss of life to capture the terrorists, or would a simple drone flying over the host country without their permission and killing a few terrorists be better? Lets put it this way, was it worth 50 million lives to defeat Hitler, or if we could have just assassinated Hitler and ended World War II right their, would it have been worth it?

From Russia's point of view, America and NATO are taking their land. They've taken all Warsaw Pact allies, now they're taking land of the Soviet Union. And not just land, but resources and strategic capabilities. Ukraine has major industry. They manufactured ICBMs, tanks, APCs, navy ships, military aircraft, etc. Most in east and south Ukraine, but the Antonov aircraft company is right in Kyiv. From Russia's perspective, the West is incrementally taking all that from them. It's a major threat.

But that is an incorrect point of view. Why do you feel it is necessary to compromise with an incorrect point of view, that is with some nation that is lying to itself with propaganda and saying to itself that it really deserves this land, in order to have peace? I have looked at Fox News, I used to watch CNN. Seems to me if Fox News was incorrect, then America's economy should be booming if Obama is doing things right, but its not. 5 years into the Obama Administration and we are still in a recession while CNN and MSNBC reported time and time again that we are coming out of the recession and the economy is recovering, and its not. Last quarter, after 5 years of Barack Obama, we have had 1% shrinkage in the economy. Economies are hard to hide, on can spout all the propaganda about them that they want, it still is what it is. The left wing networks were saying what a great President Barack Obama was, and he was not a great President, there is no escaping that, Fox News and many Pundits on it have warned us about Obama and they were right, and even you are critical of his foreign policy, so I guess every thing is not great between you and him either. The thing is George Bush did not have the foreign policy challenges Barack Obama is having now. So who do I trust, the network that was so far right about how the Obama Administration was going to go, or do I trust Obama's "cheerleaders"?

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I'm saying the United States is just one country. It isn't the emperor of the world. That means the United States doesn't have jurisdiction in other countries. If there's someone you supsected of bad things, operating in a country for which you don't have an extradition treaty, then tough. You can't do a damn thing. Shooting just because you can't arrest? How is that better than Russia?

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,819

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I also see screaming monkeys and hooting apes.  What then?  Do they merit our concern?

---

End

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I'm saying the United States is just one country. It isn't the emperor of the world. That means the United States doesn't have jurisdiction in other countries. If there's someone you supsected of bad things, operating in a country for which you don't have an extradition treaty, then tough. You can't do a damn thing. Shooting just because you can't arrest? How is that better than Russia?

So you don't like Obama then? Should we impeach him? Okay, suppose there is a country where we don't have an extradition treaty and a terrorist gets hold of an ICBM with a nuclear warhead and launches it destroying Los Angeles, and the country that hosted him won't extradite him and says it had nothing to do with launching that missile. What should we do then?

By the way, I don't know how this went from whether countries like Ukraine and Poland should be allowed to retain their independence to American Imperialism. I'm pretty sure most Ukrainians that want their own separate country fro Russia and who don't want Russia dictating to them what treaties and what alliances they can join, I'm pretty sure they don't see themselves as agents of American Imperialism. As I pointed out to you numerous times before, the United States kept no land after World War II, and Russia did. Russia in fact started World War II along side Germany when it joined with it in invading Poland. I don't see Russia as entitled to having Warsaw Pact satellite states, or parts of the old Soviet Union that were never officially part of Russia. Also why can't the Russians adopt the German attitude when they lost their empire at the end of World War II.

Look at this, this is the territory that used to belong to the Third Reich, just like that map of the Soviet Block you put up, Germany lost all of that territory at the end of World War II, but you don't see the Germans complaining about Poland going its own separate way.

clark

Member

Registered: 2001-09-20

Posts: 6,374

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

This is largely why I don't help fund programs that improve literacy. The law of unintended consequences. A case study.

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I have looked at Fox News, I used to watch CNN. Seems to me if Fox News was incorrect, then America's economy should be booming if Obama is doing things right, but its not. 5 years into the Obama Administration and we are still in a recession while CNN and MSNBC reported time and time again that we are coming out of the recession and the economy is recovering, and its not. Last quarter, after 5 years of Barack Obama, we have had 1% shrinkage in the economy. Economies are hard to hide, on can spout all the propaganda about them that they want, it still is what it is. The left wing networks were saying what a great President Barack Obama was, and he was not a great President,

After reading some of your comments I actually struggle to believe you are for real.
You fulfill every stereotype of Americans, in a political context. Convinced  that you are right, very sketchily informed and full of prejudice.

I've got news for you re. American mainstream media - it is not "left wing". Your definition of left wing must including everyting that's not radically Reagan right wing. You are using Cold War thinking and rhetoric that seems to be taken from McCarthy's era, or some propagandistic Voice of America broadcast. Real left wing people, socialists and others don't get airtime in US mainstream media.

I'm going to go full out in the other direction! I normally wouldn't, but I can't help myself after the overdose of US rightwing cold war rhetoric.

Regarding the financial situation in the US: Of course you are not going to find out any truth from Fox, or CNN for that matter!

The USA as a state is deeper into debt than any major state has ever been in known human history. The state will either go bust/explode - or it will have to use force internationally to continue to rule without adapting its spendings to its income.

Class divides are increasing and the trend is that the wealth is getting concentrated into the hands of a small elite, while middle class or workers (to the extent there can be workers in a country that barely produces anything) are getting poorer.. Your jobs are outsourced while Americans are on foodstamps subsidized with taxes.
Schools are dumbing down and indoctrinating anyone who can't afford a private school or homeschooling.

Democracy in the US is a joke to external observers - you've got two right wing candidates to choose from, and neither will make any changes that radically shifts the balance. The power in Washington is with corporations through their lobbyists. Who is in the White House is irrelevant. It's been demonstrated again and again, but Americans seem to not care, or understand that this is making mockery of democracy.

The USA is repeatedly getting exposed as a hypocritical liar in international politics with arrogant comments caught on tape and spying on their own closest allies. It's got a secret number (several hundred thousand) troops deployed to bases across the globe in a strategic network that means it can threaten and keep the balance almost anywhere on the globes. Nations that don't play along and blackpainted and threatened. Attempts are made to destroy their economies.

The USA will either go bust and have a huge wake-up and return to realistic view of itself and eat some humble-pie. It won't be fun. While this happens China will take over as top dog, and the other BRIC countries with it. China which is governed more by actual long term strategies than by the quest for short term profit will make for an interesting change.

Or it will have to turn into a fascist dictatorship and perpetuate itself by paranoid surveillance of its own citizens and the world, by propagandistic terror hyping "they are out to get us, civil liberties revoked...." and endless campaigns abroad to try to stay on as lord of the manor. Obviously ignore or somehow turn the tables on its debt, since its realistically unreclaimable. It would take a decade or two for the rest of the world to see America for what it really is, or is becoming, but eventually it would become too obvious to ignore.

Finally - the US is also destroying itself through its moral corruptness. It's been gradually increasing since the 60s, and spread to us in Europe through the unbelievable US influence; Hollywood; rock music; US bases scattered across the continent.
Everything that was once known to be immoral or just bad for people, is cool and encouraged through US popular culture. All that really matters is consumption and coolness. Most Europeans have been lapping it up like kittens with the cream.
Meanwhile in countries like Russia, people are waking up to the fact that most of what was said about capitalism under socialism was actually true. It is rotten, morally corrupt, expansionist and aggressive. And the US as a nation is sympolising all of that.

Shame on a country that was once decent and could have turned out decent but let greed take over the steering wheel.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I have looked at Fox News, I used to watch CNN. Seems to me if Fox News was incorrect, then America's economy should be booming if Obama is doing things right, but its not. 5 years into the Obama Administration and we are still in a recession while CNN and MSNBC reported time and time again that we are coming out of the recession and the economy is recovering, and its not. Last quarter, after 5 years of Barack Obama, we have had 1% shrinkage in the economy. Economies are hard to hide, on can spout all the propaganda about them that they want, it still is what it is. The left wing networks were saying what a great President Barack Obama was, and he was not a great President,

After reading some of your comments I actually struggle to believe you are for real.
You fulfill every stereotype of Americans, in a political context. Convinced  that you are right, very sketchily informed and full of prejudice.

I've got news for you re. American mainstream media - it is not "left wing". Your definition of left wing must including everyting that's not radically Reagan right wing. You are using Cold War thinking and rhetoric that seems to be taken from McCarthy's era, or some propagandistic Voice of America broadcast. Real left wing people, socialists and others don't get airtime in US mainstream media.

All the left wing has to offer is propaganda, they don't have any solutions. What sort of socialists don't get airtime in the US media? Communists? You might as well tell me the World is not round, we saw what a "smashing success" the Soviet Union was. The United States is still around and the Soviet Union is not, that tells you something, and I don't think going in the direction of the old Soviet Union would be wise. So what are the solutions you would try that Barack Obama hasn't? Would you collectivize all US agriculture, would you nationalize all US businesses and have the US government run them, Barack Obama has already done this with General Motors. So tell me in what way is Barack Obama not left wing?

I'm going to go full out in the other direction! I normally wouldn't, but I can't help myself after the overdose of US rightwing cold war rhetoric.

The only one who's uttering COld War Rheteric is Vladimir Putin, I don't think its a natural Cold War response to cut the Military budget, how do you account for that Martienne? its is a usual tactic late in a left wing president's administration for the left wing to abandon its standard bearer, because it is such a failure and they don't want to be associated with that failure, but Obama has exercised every policy suggestion you have suggested and it hasn't worked, so all you can do now is distance yourself from him, unless you are an actual Marxist-Leninist Communist, and we know what happened to the Soviet Union. Why do you think we won the Cold War anyway? Because our economy was much more efficient than theirs and we could sustain the arms race for longer than they could.

Regarding the financial situation in the US: Of course you are not going to find out any truth from Fox, or CNN for that matter!

What is the truth Martienne, is it the "Soviet Truth" we know that truth died with the Soviet Union and that "reality" came crashing down with them, so what "truth" could it possibly be?

The USA as a state is deeper into debt than any major state has ever been in known human history. The state will either go bust/explode - or it will have to use force internationally to continue to rule without adapting its spendings to its income.

Hey don't look at me, it was Obama's left wing solutions that got us here, and more government spending will not get us out of debt, the size of the debt by the way is less than the typical mortgage an individual takes to buy a house. the United States could Probably settle this debt by eliminating unnecessary departments, such as the EPA, Education Department and by selling its land holdings in the American West to private firms and individuals, also by cutting the budget by 1% in real terms every year will balance the budget in 6 years, but Barack Obama won't even allow that, so the solution would be to impeach Barack Obama.

Class divides are increasing and the trend is that the wealth is getting concentrated into the hands of a small elite, while middle class or workers (to the extent there can be workers in a country that barely produces anything) are getting poorer.. Your jobs are outsourced while Americans are on foodstamps subsidized with taxes.

That is what is happening under Barack Obama's policies which prolong the recession

Schools are dumbing down and indoctrinating anyone who can't afford a private school or homeschooling.

Democracy in the US is a joke to external observers - you've got two right wing candidates to choose from, and neither will make any changes that radically shifts the balance. The power in Washington is with corporations through their lobbyists. Who is in the White House is irrelevant. It's been demonstrated again and again, but Americans seem to not care, or understand that this is making mockery of democracy.

Why would corporations want a recession? Who are the two right wing candidates, the Republican Party hasn't even picked one candidate yet, Obama is not running for reelection, so I assume you are not talking about him?

The USA is repeatedly getting exposed as a hypocritical liar in international politics with arrogant comments caught on tape and spying on their own closest allies.

Well don't look at me, I didn't vote for Barack Obama, and I'm not defending him, I just think we should get rid of him as quickly as possible by impeaching him as soon as the Republicans win the Senate to make this happen, it is obvious Barack Obama is a liar and unfit to be President, that doesn't discount anyone the Republicans might put out to replace him.

It's got a secret number (several hundred thousand) troops deployed to bases across the globe in a strategic network that means it can threaten and keep the balance almost anywhere on the globes. Nations that don't play along and blackpainted and threatened. Attempts are made to destroy their economies.

You are referring to countries that wish to upset or overturn the status quo by building their own empires at their neighbors expense, such as what Russia wants to do at the expense of Ukraine and other former Soviet Republics and Warsaw Pack Allies, and also with Iran, which wants to build its own Islamic Empire out of the Middle East, almost every other country opposes the agenda of these would be empire builders and trypically American foreign policy is on the side of the opponents to these empire builders. we want to maintain Poland's independence for instance, which goes against the agenda of Putin rebuilding the Russian Empire. Just one question, how would a Russian Empire be any better than an American one? I don't think the Russians were any more competent in running their Empire than Americans are. The American Empire allows for more freedom for its citizens than the Russian Empire did, and the American Empire got better economic results with its capitalism that Russia got with its Communism, s why are you rooting for the Russians? If they succeed, they will only make the World a much poorer place, and the Russian Empire had a definite class structure that was enforced by Russian law, American "classes" are based entirely on wealth and people can gain or lose that in an instant, while Russia had its Nonenklatura, that is people who were high in the Communist Party that got special privileges and got to shop in special stores that offred western goods. I'd rather have "classes" that are determined by wealth and talent than determined by the whims of the government, which was the case in the Soviet Union.

The USA will either go bust and have a huge wake-up and return to realistic view of itself and eat some humble-pie. It won't be fun. While this happens China will take over as top dog, and the other BRIC countries with it. China which is governed more by actual long term strategies than by the quest for short term profit will make for an interesting change.

As usual the left wing offers no real solutions except to go bust, a conservative solution hasn't been tried yet and wpon't be tried until Barack Obama is out of office, and I don't think the USA going bust is the Conservative Solution, it may be the left wing solution to get rid of the USA, but the Conservatives solution is to return prosperity and economic growth to the American People American debt is largely a problem for the people who loaned Obama the money, they banked on hi ruinous economic policies, and maybe they will learn better than to loan him more of their money. The Conservative solution is not to go into more debt, which is Obama's "solution" but to balance the budget, your "solution" is that we go bust, which is no solution at all, so why should we listen to you and go bust instead of balancing the budget through increased economic growth?

Or it will have to turn into a fascist dictatorship and perpetuate itself by paranoid surveillance of its own citizens and the world, by propagandistic terror hyping "they are out to get us, civil liberties revoked...." and endless campaigns abroad to try to stay on as lord of the manor. Obviously ignore or somehow turn the tables on its debt, since its realistically unreclaimable. It would take a decade or two for the rest of the world to see America for what it really is, or is becoming, but eventually it would become too obvious to ignore.

Fascism is a form of socialism that involves the government running things, I don't think we'll adopt that mode as it didn't work for Germany. Besides those Fascists defeated your country when Germany invaded, so I wouldn't talk about Fascism if I were you.

Finally - the US is also destroying itself through its moral corruptness. It's been gradually increasing since the 60s, and spread to us in Europe through the unbelievable US influence; Hollywood; rock music; US bases scattered across the continent.

Just for the record, Hollywood is a leftwing enclave that produces mostly left wing films, most Rock Musicians are either left wingers or keep quiet about their politics, I prefer Country Music as it tends to b more openly patriotic

Everything that was once known to be immoral or just bad for people, is cool and encouraged through US popular culture. All that really matters is consumption and coolness. Most Europeans have been lapping it up like kittens with the cream.

Which is why I don't understand why Hollywood wants a recession by supporting Barack Obama and the Democrats. Recessions mean fewer people can afford to go to the movies, and it doesn't help their bottom line.

Meanwhile in countries like Russia, people are waking up to the fact that most of what was said about capitalism under socialism was actually true.

Was Communism true? What alternative is their to capitalism and freedom? Is it some dictator like Putin? How is a dictator running things more efficient that capitalism? Isn't that the equivalent to saying that the "one" is smarter than the "many"? I think dictators can be idiots just like everyone else, I don't see how putting one person in charge helps. The "dictator" didn't win World War II after all, even though he defeated your country. Capitalist counties such as the United States and Great Britian liberated it from the Nazis, so I don' know why you hate it so much! So please tell me why, would you been happier as a subject of the Third Reich, assuming of course that they would let someone like you live?

It is rotten, morally corrupt, expansionist and aggressive. And the US as a nation is sympolising all of that.

Shame on a country that was once decent and could have turned out decent but let greed take over the steering wheel.

When has it not been? The United States of America was never a socialist paradise, though it is more socialist now than when it started.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-06-03 06:47:14)

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Yea, Tom's comment about CNN didn't make sense. I find CNN to be extremely right wing. I stopped watching CNN because of what can only be called propaganda. That was before Fox news became so extreme right-wing. But I was pleasantly surprised when Tom said the US economy isn't recovering. Really? Tom watches Fox and actually knows that?

Regarding economy, in from the beginning of April 2000 through September 14, 2001, I worked for a company in Winnipeg that developed software for the QNX operating system. Their customers were manufacturers who hired this Winnipeg firm to write the software. Most customers were American. In early February 2001, just two weeks after the innauguration of George W. Bush, we saw business drop off dramatically. The US recessesion started. The recession didn't start with 9/11, it started with the innauguration of George W. Not sure why, it just did. Canada's primary customer is the United States. In fact, 70% of all manufactured goods exported from Canada goes to the United States. So when the United States goes into recession, so do we. And I was directly affected. The company I worked for in 2001 was struggling, but when 9/11 happened the owner decided the US wasn't going to recover any time soon. So I was laid-off. Recovery? I'm a senior software developer. I've been unemployed for years. I'm barely making ends meet with a home business repairing computers.

But I'm tired of arguing with Tom. Martienne: have at it.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

It could be simply that your American customers simply found another lower cost supplier, a recession isn't the only explanation, and if the recession started when George Bush was inaugurated, that would make it Bill Clinton's fault since George Bush's policies weren't implemented upon inauguration and require some time after implementation for their effects to be felt. I guess you want to say it wasn't started by the 9/11 attack because you don't want it to look like it was the terrorists' fault.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

This is largely why I don't help fund programs that improve literacy. The law of unintended consequences. A case study.

Yep, people who can argue against you and make their case. I'm sure you find that quite annoying!

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Right now, the Kiev government is bombing several cities in Eastern Ukraine.
To translate to American language, this is like Washington bombing Hawaii or Alaska because they regret becoming part of the US and want to go it alone, or join another country. Or Texas or whatever.

Hundreds have died.

Complete media blackout.

I didn't support Russian intervention before, but in light of this, I do. I think it's cruel of Putin to wait, assuming that's what he's doing. These are relatives and friends of people in Russia.

Please don't think Russian leadership"wants" this region, it doesn't. There is nothing profitable or strategic about it. But the Russian people do want Russia to take it.

Now the US wants to give weapons and send troops to Ukraine. What a "surprise"!!!

Last edited by martienne (2014-06-03 11:11:58)

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Right now, the Kiev government is bombing several cities in Eastern Ukraine.
To translate to American language, this is like Washington bombing Hawaii or Alaska because they regret becoming part of the US and want to go it alone, or join another country. Or Texas or whatever.

Hundreds have died.

Complete media blackout.

I didn't support Russian intervention before, but in light of this, I do. I think it's cruel of Putin to wait, assuming that's what he's doing. These are relatives and friends of people in Russia.

Please don't think Russian leadership"wants" this region, it doesn't. There is nothing profitable or strategic about it. But the Russian people do want Russia to take it.

Martienne, do you think France should be a part of the Third Reich? Liberating France was part of American foreign policy after all, and in the process of liberating France, many parts of France got bombed and any French People were killed, I'm sure the number was greater than 100. So what do you say Martienne, was France's liberation worth it? the United States liberated your country from Germany because it that that was in its best foreign policy interests, would you oppose that policy in he name of opposing American Imperialism? Does Germany deserve to have an Empire, and would you want your country to be a part of that? You are just a kneejerk Anti-American, admit it, everything America does, you oppose no matter who is President and no matter what the policy is, you'd take the other side. So what side would you stand on in America's liberation of France? Maybe this is your "European Union":

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-06-03 11:21:26)

JoshNH4H

Member

From: Pullman, WA

Registered: 2007-07-15

Posts: 2,564

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Some facts I think we can all agree on (With the possible exception of Terraformer, who takes issue with the notion of the State):

• 1. Russia does not have any natural right to control or annex the country of Ukraine
  2. If part or all of Ukraine is to become part of Russia, or an independent state, this should ideally be the result of a fair election with no military intervention on either side and with the explicit assent of the Ukrainian government in Kiev

  • 2a. These conditions were not met in the annexation of Crimea, nor in the various elections that took place in Eastern Ukraine
    2b. The average person in Crimea wanted to be part of Russia
    2c. Some portion of people in Ukraine, especially in the eastern portion of the country, also want to be part of Russia

  3. Russia is now and has in the past intervened improperly in the situation of Ukraine to advance its own interests
  4. The USA supports the current Ukrainian government in Kiev and is involving itself in the situation primarily through an offer of loans
  5. It is extremely unlikely that the people of Ukraine will have the chance to choose their destiny through the process described in (2)
  6. Russia does not support the current government in Kiev

  • 6a. Russia sees the eastward expansion of the EU as an attack on its regional power in the post-Soviet world
    6b. Russia sees the eastward expansion of NATO as an attack on its regional power in the post-Soviet world

  7. The Ukrainian government in Kiev came to be in reaction to the Russian-leaning policies of the Yanukovych regime
  8. The Ukrainian government in Kiev is oriented towards the West and is distrustful of Russia
  9. The Ukrainian government in Kiev has had little success in improving the country's situation since it came to power
  10. There are significant areas of Eastern Ukraine which are not under the control of the Ukrainian government in Kiev

From this, we can draw some simple conclusions:

• 1. Putin's Russia is currently violating the spirit of the democratic process by intervening in Ukraine in the interest of its own international influence
  2. The USA and Europe's actions are the result of a desire to limit Putin's influence in the region but are much more "hands-off" in the sense of acting from outside the borders of Ukraine with non-military force

and, above all

• 3. Ukraine is screwed.  There is no entity which can settle the situation there without entering into a larger geopolitical conflict and all major players are likely to continue to fight for their cause rather than to work together to find a peaceful solution to the crisis.  This will do nothing to fix Ukraine's economy, which is smaller now than it was 25 years ago, or its issues with crime and corruption.

I propose that we shift the topic of discussion to what a peaceful Ukraine might look like and how we might get there, given the realities of the situation.

---

-Josh

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

As you can see from the map I posted above, Ukraine was also part of the Reich as well as part of the Soviet Union. What we need is for the Russians to adopt the attitude of the Post War Germans and accept the borders they currently live in instead of trying to regain lost empires. The Russians had their empire called the Soviet Union and the Germans had their Third Reich. Just as the Germans don't have the right to various countries territories that were once incorporated into their Third Reich, neither does the Soviet Union have the same in various parts of the old Soviet Union that are now separate countries. So if Russia claims Ukraine as its near abroad, how is that not the same with Germany which had its own empire in the region as well? Since the Germans are fine with Ukrainian independence, I don't see what the problem with the Russians are. the Germans should be the Russians role model.

Terraformer

Member

From: The Fortunate Isles

Registered: 2007-08-27

Posts: 3,906

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Josh, why must Kyiv assent to any decision made by the people of parts which wish to become part of Russia? Surely, if you are going to take the position of "democracy", you should not be in favour of allowing that to be violated by the previous ruling power?

Also, don't forget that Ukraine was going to have elections next year anyway...

---

Use what is abundant and build to last

JoshNH4H

Member

From: Pullman, WA

Registered: 2007-07-15

Posts: 2,564

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Tom- Yes, it would be nice if people everywhere would relinquish their silly insistence on telling other people what to do at any and all times.  Putin is certainly not the only one who is guilty of this. 

Terraformer- I've been thinking about this lately, and it's actually quite interesting how our politics have converged.  In fact, I could not say at this point that I can think of anything about which we disagree.

But given that there are no good options in Ukraine that are likely to happen, and given that I am not Ukrainian (Nor do I speak Russian or Ukrainian) I don't expect to have any real influence on events in that country, it's all political theater.

I follow politics in much the same way as others follow basketball: It's fun to watch the billion-dollar games in the big buildings under the bright lights, but the only games that matter are the ones where I'm playing with my friends*.  The Heat and the Spurs are meaningless to me compared to the local rec center leagues*.

*Actually I'm terrible at basketball and never play of my own volition, but I'm sure my meaning is clear.

---

-Josh

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I just posted on the other forum...

I would like everyone to just get along.

• The majority of people in east Ukraine (70% according to Washington Post poll) do not want to separate from Ukraine. But most do want more autonomy. Fine. So do something similar to a Canadian province.

• People in east Ukraine who speak the Russian language want to continue to do so. Fine. Canada has two official languages (English/French), Netherlands has one official (Dutch) and one "recognised" (Frisian), Switzerland has four. So let them continue to speak that language. Treat east Ukraine like Quebec.

• Russia wants continued access to military equipment manufactured in Ukraine. Fine. So sell that to them. I'm sure people in east Ukraine are worried about their jobs. Rich businessmen want multi-billion dollar (rubble?) contracts from Russia. So just do so.

• Vlad Putin said he wants Ukraine to be neutral. Neither part of NATO nor any Russian military alliance. Fine. That may be "Findlandizing", but so what. Just do it.

• Sound like he's given up on Ukraine joining EAU, but with all these problems the EU doesn't want Ukraine anyway. So fine, do business/trade with the West and Russia.

• Russia took Crimea. President Obama likes to pound his chest about that, but frankly that's done. And there's so much support in Crimea for Russia that it's never going to come back to Ukraine. Let it go.

• Post-Factum reported that Ukraine wants the 1 trillion gripen from Crimea banks. So apply that to Ukraine's debt.

• Ensure all Ukraine navy ships, aircraft, etc. are returned to Ukraine. Probably America or NATO would help with repairs. Russia should pay, but good luck getting that. Getting NATO to pay for repairs side-steps that problem.

This should solve everything. And should be done quickly. The more blood that's shed, the more animosity.

JoshNH4H

Member

From: Pullman, WA

Registered: 2007-07-15

Posts: 2,564

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Seems like a reasonable goal to me, but how do you get there?  And how do you ensure that the Russian-speaking people of Eastern Ukraine remain happy with the new settlement?

---

-Josh