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#26 2012-07-25 09:51:38

NeoSM
Member
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: 2012-07-16
Posts: 28

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

clark wrote:

I know, you might point out that some of the people going to the Sahara could sell other things to the kazoo makers. True. A little local service economy in the Sahara. Still, how do you pay the service economy if the kazoo makers aren't making any money? Poor little kazoo makers.

:'( No! not the kazoo makers!...

Maby they could start a kazoo band and sell tickets.

louis wrote:

As soon as you arrive on Mars and fold out your PV panels, you have an economy.

Wrong

louis wrote:

When people grapple with these ideas they often get confused between different concepts e.g. profit and revenue, ISRU utlitisation, trade surplus, serivces/manufacture, Mars GDP, subsidised and unsubsidised activities, money cost/energy cost/labour cost, Mars money and Earth money, per capita wealth, personal wealth, transit costs etc etc  Really, you need to have a good grasp of all these different concepts.

Exactly

clark wrote:

All your silly buzzwords aside, producing something does not make an economy. I'm sorry that my poor metaphor failed- i really can't make this any plainer.

But I digress, go make your kazoos- afterall, production = economy.

This is dead on with what I have been trying to say.

Last edited by NeoSM (2012-07-25 12:54:53)

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#27 2012-07-25 16:17:43

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,719

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

NeoSM wrote:
louis wrote:

As soon as you arrive on Mars and fold out your PV panels, you have an economy.

Wrong

louis wrote:

When people grapple with these ideas they often get confused between different concepts e.g. profit and revenue, ISRU utlitisation, trade surplus, serivces/manufacture, Mars GDP, subsidised and unsubsidised activities, money cost/energy cost/labour cost, Mars money and Earth money, per capita wealth, personal wealth, transit costs etc etc  Really, you need to have a good grasp of all these different concepts.

Exactly

clark wrote:

All your silly buzzwords aside, producing something does not make an economy. I'm sorry that my poor metaphor failed- i really can't make this any plainer.

But I digress, go make your kazoos- afterall, production = economy.

This is dead on with what I have been trying to say.

If you don't think production is part of an economy there is no hope for you.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#28 2012-07-25 16:25:20

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,719

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

clark wrote:

All your silly buzzwords aside, producing something does not make an economy. I'm sorry that my poor metaphor failed- i really can't make this any plainer.

But I digress, go make your kazoos- afterall, production = economy.

My original point is that Musk is motivated from a point of charity. I applaude him, but it makes for a poor long term plan to depend on personal charity.

They aren't silly buzzwords, they are the essentials to understanding how an economy works.

You can't just play humpty and make up meanings that suit you. Everyone who studies economics knows that it is based on production.  If you mean that it also has to include trade, well that will have taken place before the rocket leaves for Mars, with sponsorship deals, TV rights and so on.

Like many people you completely underestimate Elon Musk - and thank goodness that is the case.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#29 2012-07-25 16:29:27

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,252

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

If you think the act of production automatically equates to an "economy" then I have no choice but to believe that you gained your insight from a misguided game of Monopoly. Do not pass Go.

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#30 2012-07-25 16:35:36

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,719

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

...looking back at your post, Clark, I think you are really confusing the different elements of the economy.

There will be a local economy on Mars. Initially this won't be a money economy. But it will be an economy, there will be producers and consumers.  You wonder who will pay the kazoo makers. To use your analogy, they have the ISRU and the machines to make kazoos - except of course they will generally make only utilitarian equipment that allows the economy to grow e.g. farm equipment, batteries, solar reflectors construction materials etc.

There will also be trade between Mars and Earth. This will form part of a money economy.

The money to pay for transits to Mars and replenishment of equipment such as rockets, medicines and space suits will come from a variety of sources e.g. revenue from sales of material and services (such as  managing experiments on Mars and sale of meteorites), profits on operations and investment capital from companies on Earth.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#31 2012-07-25 17:24:15

NeoSM
Member
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: 2012-07-16
Posts: 28

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

louis wrote:

If you don't think production is part of an economy there is no hope for you.

Please show me where I said anything remotely close to that

However, this could be considered close to that - I don't think unpractical* types of production is part of a functioning economy.

clark wrote:

a misguided game of Monopoly

Thats what you get for making him the banker.

Also - can I have Boardwalk?

Last edited by NeoSM (2012-07-25 17:52:50)

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#32 2012-07-26 08:14:47

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,719

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

clark wrote:

If you think the act of production automatically equates to an "economy" then I have no choice but to believe that you gained your insight from a misguided game of Monopoly. Do not pass Go.

You seem to be confusing the word "economy" with the phrase "market economy".  I don't know why.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#33 2012-07-26 10:47:45

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,252

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

You seem to want to play with semantics. I don't. My point is clear. Let me restate, again, there is no real tangible value in mars. Stop. There is no real economic model for earth-mars. Stop. Any realistic model is 50 years out. Stop. Musk is building towards mars as an act of charity. Stop. relying on charity for your long term plans is a poor strategy. Stop.

Reality tv and logos does not a business plan make. but what do I know. Enjoy your kingdom of kazoos.

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#34 2012-07-26 11:31:13

NeoSM
Member
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: 2012-07-16
Posts: 28

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

The only functioning economic model would constitute a "fully" closed system where one planet would not have to rely on the other; they would both still be supporting the growing in-space infrastructure, but Mars would have to not just be an outstretched hand of Earth. There is no Mars-Earth, only Mars* and Earth*, but as you VERY correctly say, it's far off. You could say that's the end goal, a Mars* and an Earth* if one is lost the other lives on; an act of charity indeed.

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#35 2012-07-26 15:58:45

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,719

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

clark wrote:

You seem to want to play with semantics. I don't. My point is clear. Let me restate, again, there is no real tangible value in mars. Stop. There is no real economic model for earth-mars. Stop. Any realistic model is 50 years out. Stop. Musk is building towards mars as an act of charity. Stop. relying on charity for your long term plans is a poor strategy. Stop.

Reality tv and logos does not a business plan make. but what do I know. Enjoy your kingdom of kazoos.


You're just asserting, not debating. Setting up an experiment on Mars for an Earth-bound university in return for payment is, for instance,  an economic activity and that sort of thing can start from Mission One. To deny that is to be irrational.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#36 2012-07-26 16:00:51

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,719

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

NeoSM wrote:

The only functioning economic model would constitute a "fully" closed system where one planet would not have to rely on the other; they would both still be supporting the growing in-space infrastructure, but Mars would have to not just be an outstretched hand of Earth. There is no Mars-Earth, only Mars* and Earth*, but as you VERY correctly say, it's far off. You could say that's the end goal, a Mars* and an Earth* if one is lost the other lives on; an act of charity indeed.

You both seem to have lost contact with reason. It's clear that from day one there will be a Mars internal economy, based around things like power generation, and an Earth-Mars economy based on things like sale of experimental services on the planet to universities.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#37 2012-07-26 20:14:24

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

going wildly offtopic? Can"t we split this thread?


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#38 2012-07-30 14:22:55

RGClark
Member
From: Philadelphia, PA
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 501
Website

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

Elon Musk to Address Mars Society Convention in Pasadena
posted Jul 20, 2012 10:05 AM by Mars Society - PR

The Mars Society is very pleased to announce that SpaceX Founder and CEO Elon Musk will address the 15th Annual International Mars Society Convention in Pasadena, California, on Saturday, August 4th during the organization's evening banquet.
http://www.marssociety.org/home/press/a … inpasadena

  Bob Clark


Nanotechnology now can produce the space elevator and private orbital launchers. It now also makes possible the long desired 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:
Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nano … 13319568#/

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#39 2012-07-30 21:16:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,841

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

Rxke wrote:

going wildly offtopic? Can"t we split this thread?

I would love to but when the site was rebuilt many of us that where the eyes and ears did not get there priviledges back...... sad

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#40 2012-08-12 23:42:53

RGClark
Member
From: Philadelphia, PA
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 501
Website

Re: Elon Musk: ticket to Mars for $500,000.

Just saw this on NasaSpaceflight:

Saturday Night Banquet (full) - 15th Annual International Mars Society Convention - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9blyqTwX … r_embedded

It features Robert Zubrin and Elon Musk. Zubrin introduces Musk at about the 58 minute mark.

Bob Clark


Nanotechnology now can produce the space elevator and private orbital launchers. It now also makes possible the long desired 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:
Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nano … 13319568#/

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