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#76 2015-11-09 22:51:11

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

480px-Solar_system_escape_velocity_vs_surface_temperature.svg.png

Speaking of plasma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Allen_belts the particles are ions which means they are highly charged and due to movement they create a magnetic field.

I am wonder if it repells the oxygen of earth back towards the planet?

I noticed that the plasma test shows a shape simular to the others in this topic.

Simulated_Van_Allen_Belts_-_GPN-2000-002003.jpg

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#77 2015-11-11 22:08:36

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#78 2015-11-17 14:32:16

Void
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

This reply copied from;

Index
» Terraformation
» The end of the line for Mars Terraforming?

In that topic, the similarity of the upper atmospheres of Mars and Venus was cited by Spacenut, so;

Yes, their atmospheres are reported to be similar.

Their magnetic fields are not.  Venus by what I have read, has a weak magnetic field, but it does not reach appreciably up much beyond the surface.  So, perhaps it is not of significance where the atmosphere and solar wind meet.  Venus does apparently have a tail, but if I am to understand correctly even though the solar flux for Venus is ~4x that of Mars, Mars has a greater atmospheric loss problem.

It seems to be indicated that the lumpy fossil magnetic fields of Mars make the atmospheric losses greater.  They apparently reach the interface between the atmosphere and the solar wind on Mars.

So about magnetic fields on Mars, as I see it you have some options.
1) Restart the existing mechanism of a magnetic field for Mars (I have no idea how, and I suspect it is exhausted, can't restart it).
2) Create an induced magnetic field (That's going to be a big cost, don't you have any other options, or why not just live with it.
3) Harvest the lost gasses if you can.  Since the fossil field helps the solar wind strip off bubbles of plasma from the atmosphere, can you pick it's pockets and take that gas?  (What would you use it for in orbit?)
4) Hammer the fossil magnetic fields into submission.  Well, nuclear bombs?  Asteroid strikes?  (Disruptive, expensive, can you actually do it?)
5) Expand the height of the atmosphere so that the interface between the atmosphere and the solar wind is above the fossil magnetic fields.
(Don't know if you can do that.  How much atmosphere can you create?  How high do the fossil fields reach?).

So, you guys have any other notions on it?


I think just now #5 is the best option to investigate.  If successful, it would not close the leak entirely, but it would valve it down a bit.   Hopefully quite a bit.

Otherwise, if you can find a way to do jujitsu on the Solar wind and trick it into protecting the atmosphere of Mars, perhaps by generating a counter EMF, and a counter magnetic field, that would be what I would think to try.  That would be a #2 method.

In my opinion on the basis of what I have read, we have chances of moving the Mars situation to more closely resemble that of Venus.

http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/personnel/ … /mars_mag/


Solar Wind Interaction

To date, the observations at Mars suggest that it great deal o similarity exists between near-Venus space and near-Mars space. Mars, like most of the other planetary obstacles, is preceded in the solar wind by a 'bow shock'-like structure that reflects the slightly greater than planet-size scale of the weakly magnetized Martian obstacle. The subsolar distance of the bow shock is ~ 1.5 Rm while its terminator position is ~ 2.7 Rm. Within the bow shock, the solar wind plasma is diverted around the obstacle. Within it, the imbedded interplanetary magnetic field is compressed against the obstacle nose. The field distortion associated with the divergence of the flow gives the 'draped' configuration of field lines illustrated in Figure 1.. This 'magnetosheath' is a common feature of all planetary obstacles.



Fig. 1. Illustration of the disturbance in the solar wind flow (a) and interplanetary magnetic field (b) produced by a planetary obstacle in the solar wind. Early spacecraft to Mars detected this disturbance, the size of which gave an upper limit to the strength of the Martian magnetic field. (J. G. Luhmann and L. H. Brace, Rev. Geophys., 29, 121, 1991, copyright American Geophysical Union).


Within the dayside obstacle boundary implied by the Mars bow shock position, the magnetic field geometry is unknown. However, both in situ measurements on the Viking Landers and radio occultation experiments on the Viking Orbiters and other spacecraft indicated the presence of a substantial dayside ionosphere below about 300 km. (The subsolar obstacle height inferred from the bow shock position is ~ 400 km.) The in situ measurements from the Viking Landers also provided information on the temperatures in the ionospheric plasma which were used to calculate the ionosphere's thermal pressure. This calculation resulted in the conclusion that Mars must have a planetary magnetic field of significance because these pressures were less than the incident solar wind pressure. Nevertheless, we know from the observations at Venus during disturbed solar wind conditions that an ionospheric obstacle can persist in the face of such levels of excess solar wind pressure. One possibility is that the Mars ionosphere, like that of the disturbed Venus counterpart, contains large-scale horizontal magnetic fields that are induced by the solar wind interaction. Models of these induced fields suggest that they should be several tens of nanotesla in strength. The electron temperatures measured in the ionosphere by the Viking Landers are also consistent with fields of this strength and orientation, but it is not clear from these whether the field is planetary or induced by the solar wind interaction.

As mentioned above, the Phobos 2 magnetic measurements in the near- equatorial wake of Mars showed that the fields in that region are controlled by the interplanetary field orientation. The relationship between the interplanetary field draped over the obstacle and the field in such an 'induced' magnetotail is illustrated by Figure 2. In spite of this finding, there are still advocates of an intrinsic field contribution to the Martian magnetotail because the magnetotail appears to be wider than that of Venus relative to the planet radius (~ 2.0 planetary radii in diameter compared to Venus' ~ 1.2). It is argued that this contribution has not been detected because the 'intrinsic' field tail features may be restricted to regions removed from the equator.



Fig. 2. Illustration of the 'induced' magnetotail in the wake of Mars and its connection to the draped interplanetary magnetic field (J. G. Luhmann and L. H. Brace, Rev. Geophys., 29, 121, 1991, copyright American Geophysical Union).


Phobos 2 did detect significant fluxes of planetary ions (mainly O+, as at Venus) that had been scavenged from Mars by the passing solar wind (e.g. see the Nature special issue mentioned above). The details of the acceleration of these ions are not completely understood, but the electric field in the solar wind is expected to remove ions formed in the upper atmosphere that extends above the 'obstacle' boundary into the magnetosheath and undisturbed solar wind. The observed rates of escape for the oxygen suggest that the solar wind scavenging process has the potential to remove all of Mars' present inventory of atmospheric oxygen over the next 108 years. These observations also suggest that the solar wind interaction must have played some role in the Martian atmosphere's evolution over the past 4.5 billion years, or at least after the thermally driven planetary dynamo ceased to operate.

Well, I see that I am on the wrong thread, but if you look at #5 as a solution then both threads have validity.  I will copy this to the Magnetic field thread, and you may do as you wish Spacenut.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-17 14:34:36)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#79 2015-11-17 20:01:50

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb … lefie.html

Make use of the remant magentic field with this unit as seen as a shield for the moon...

What I am thinking of is creating an electromagnetic field via orbiting satelites that have the field  pointing to creat a magentic net from the polarity add fast moving ions and the field will intensify on either side of the partial barrier that we would be creating. Those on the sunny side could be solar powered and stationary to start with the dark side could be possibly RTG powered. Once there is link up for the fields and they are capturing particles then maybe the field satelites could be nudged into motion....

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#80 2015-11-18 06:58:56

Spaniard
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

SpaceNut wrote:

What I am thinking of is creating an electromagnetic field via orbiting satelites that have the field  pointing to creat a magentic net from the polarity add fast moving ions and the field will intensify on either side of the partial barrier that we would be creating. Those on the sunny side could be solar powered and stationary to start with the dark side could be possibly RTG powered. Once there is link up for the fields and they are capturing particles then maybe the field satelites could be nudged into motion....

We must understand solar wind and plasma interaction well. Perhaps the satellites could not only create a simple magnetic field, but accelerate existing particles to build a plasma ring around the chosed orbit, with a group of satellites that bound the particles around the ring. Perhaps we could even capture and deflect the solar wind to be trapped in the ring like a magnetic bubble (as in fusion reactors or particle accelerators), so the solar wind could feed the shield instead of pushing it.

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#81 2015-11-18 22:32:31

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

The Plasma Magnet rotating dipole field is created via a loop antenna causing the magnetic field to develope whencurrent is passed through the plasma.....
The Plasma is charged and will be held in the local field of the satelite creating the RF energy. Link these together as suggested to create a ring the we can intensify over time....

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#82 2015-11-19 05:39:06

Spaniard
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

SpaceNut wrote:

The Plasma Magnet rotating dipole field is created via a loop antenna causing the magnetic field to develope whencurrent is passed through the plasma.....
The Plasma is charged and will be held in the local field of the satelite creating the RF energy. Link these together as suggested to create a ring the we can intensify over time....

Yes. It's the idea, using a cloud of satellites that create a joint field to get advantage of the solar wind to selfreinforcement instead of propulsion of this Plasma Magnet. Using the plasma as a big electromagnet instead of the satellites directly to create a enormous torus around Mars made of plasma instead a complex infrastructure like a ring or something like that. Because plasma could be trapped from incoming plasma, perhaps we could generate a inmense magnet from "small" satellites.

I suppose that in the size ratio than Plasma Magnet, but instead of a simple magnet, a cloud of thousand or even millions of satellites.

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#83 2015-11-21 09:29:02

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

The number of orbiting satelites is an issue in terms of funding so we will need to look at how to create this net. Magnetics terms of field are resonant and coupling with more than 2 poles per satelite comes to mind to me able to not only spread the net but to give it shape. I can see that its going to resemble a geodesic dome construction with regards to the field paths. That said placement orbit, distance to neighboring satelite and power strength of the field will need to be optimized to create the net. We might even seed the field with particles that will allow for the fields flux to form along the connecting lines via some despensing means for each satelite.

http://www.physics.sjsu.edu/becker/phys … _field.htm

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_flux

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. … 010907.pdf

Magnetic Radiation Shielding

Can A Mega-Magnetic Field Protect Astronauts From Radiation?

http://thediplomat.com/2014/01/japan-wi … pace-junk/

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/ … nance.html

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/ … nance.html

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#84 2015-11-22 23:07:36

SpaceNut
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#85 2015-11-23 17:11:21

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Found some more related topics Mars has locally strong magnetosphere which talks of the Mars Global Surveyor discovered and mapped intense magnetization in the Martian crust. These localized magnetic fields are remnant fields frozen into isolated structures in the crust,  left over from a time long ago when Mars had a strong global field.

mgs_magerp_m.jpg

http://www.space.dtu.dk/English/Researc … /Mars.aspx

These next topics are over lapping in that the intent is the same as what we are talking about for Mars....

Radiation shielding produced by mini-magnetospheres (or magnetic bubble) around a spacecraft.

Mini-magnetospheres above the lunar surface and the formation of lunar swirls

Creating a (small) Lunar atmosphere

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#86 2015-11-29 22:33:20

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Posting from Report buffer location user name Станислав Вечорко

"Stanislav Vechorko wrote:

Hi, using satellites actually restore the magnetic field of the planet, only that they work constantly and 8-10 on the surface of the planet to monitor temperature, pressure and seismic conditions, will have 240-265, to create a magnetic field, 8-10 on the planet with sensors and plant seeds and spores, 3-5 for the control of the system in orbit, just about 300 milliardov dollars and 5 years will be the real mutations both on the planet, of course I do. I could be wrong

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#87 2015-12-12 18:42:00

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Said that I was going to give this topic a poke....

We were talking about solar and the term MHD came up  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics

Magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) (magneto fluid dynamics or hydromagnetics) is the study of the magnetic properties of electrically conducting fluids. Examples of such magneto-fluids include plasmas, liquid metals, and salt water or electrolytes. The word magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) is derived from magneto- meaning magnetic field, hydro- meaning water, and -dynamics meaning movement.

The fundamental concept behind MHD is that magnetic fields can induce currents in a moving conductive fluid, which in turn polarizes the fluid and reciprocally changes the magnetic field itself. The set of equations that describe MHD are a combination of the Navier-Stokes equations of fluid dynamics and Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism.

Currents.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)

Mars is approximately 52% farther from the Sun, the amount of solar energy entering its upper atmosphere per unit area (the solar constant) is only around 43.3% of what reaches the Earth's upper atmosphere. solar irradiance on Mars is about 590 W/m² compared to about 1000 W/m² at the Earth's surface.

The plasma cords are produced by solar magnetic field interaction and we know that the levels for mars are less.

Plasma_scaling.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars

PIA18613-MarsMAVEN-Atmosphere-3UV-Views-20141014.jpg

The thermal escape mechanism is called Jeans escape. The exosphere is the high-altitude region where atmospheric density is sparse and Jeans escape occurs. Jeans escape calculations assuming an exosphere temperature of 1,800 K. In a quantity of gas, the average velocity of a molecule is determined by temperature, but the velocity of individual molecules change as they collide with one another, gaining and losing kinetic energy. This would suggest that Mars is to warm and that cooling it like we would want to do with Venus would allow for mars to be more like the moon with no atmosphere.

So if we want the plasma cord to be more energentic but having less warmth we have a problem. Mars weaker magnetic field is the issue to counter act the solar winds.

Mars's atmosphere is composed of the following layers:
Exosphere: Typically stated to start at 200 km (120 mi) and higher, this region is where the last wisps of atmosphere merge into the vacuum of space. There is no distinct boundary where the atmosphere ends; it just tapers away..
Upper atmosphere, or thermosphere: A region with very high temperatures, caused by heating from the Sun. Atmospheric gases start to separate from each other at these altitudes, rather than forming the even mix found in the lower atmospheric layers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_shock

The bow shock location for Mars is ?  The subsolar distance of the bow shock is ~ 1.5 Rm while its terminator position is ~ 2.7 Rm. Within the bow shock, the solar wind plasma is diverted around the obstacle.

http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/personnel/ … /mars_mag/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetosheath

The Earth's magnetosheath typically occupies the region of space approximately 10 Earth radii on the upwind (Sun-facing) side of the planet, extending significantly farther out on the downwind side due to the pressure of the solar wind. The exact location and width of the magnetosheath does depend on variables such as solar activity.

This table of data taken at specific distances from Earth during the orbit. The strength of the magnetic field is given in units of the nanoTesla (nT).

  • Point Distance (km) Strength (nT) Inverse-square Inverse-cube
    1       10,000            10,000           10,000            10,000
    2       30,000                370             1,111                370
    3       40,000                160                625               156
    4       50,000                  83                400                80
    5       60,000                  44                278                46
    6       70,000                  30                204                29
    7     140,000                    6                  51                 4


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetopause

Mars Has Crustal, Complex Magnetic Field
http://geophysics.ou.edu/solid_earth/re … field.html

Mars’ Magnetic Field:
Crustal Magnetization as Evidence for an Ancient Dynamo
https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/mdyar … nor_02.pdf

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#88 2015-12-13 11:35:09

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Mapping crustal magnetic fields at Mars using electron reflectometry
http://www.igpp.ucla.edu/public/mkivels … 020189.pdf

Contains magnetic field modeling of Earths core.....
https://engineeringhero.files.wordpress … ter-32.pdf

Magnetic Field and Plasma Observations at Mars: Initial Results of the Mars Global Surveyor Mission
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/279/5 … 6.full.pdf

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#89 2015-12-13 22:48:26

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

As in the thermal escape mechanism is called Jeans escape, magnetism also has a curie temperature where by the metal that once was magnetic loses its attraction to another magnet. But if the field is still present when the metal cools its domains will align with the of the field that is present.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature

http://www.nhn.ou.edu/~johnson/Educatio … ePoint.pdf

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#90 2015-12-16 22:19:02

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

NUCLEAR GRAVITATION  FIELD THEORY

Chapter X: Quantum Mechanics, General Relativity, and the Nuclear Gravitation Field Theory

http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/NGFT_Chapter_10.htm

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#91 2018-05-21 19:35:31

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Part of the pole drift is due to mass realignment while another is from external sources but when Earth has a drift that is not explainable what then?
Earth's Magnetic Field Is Drifting Westward, and Nobody Knows Why

Over the 400 years or so that humans have been measuring Earth's magnetic field, it has drifted inexorably to the west. Now, a new hypothesis suggests that weird waves in Earth's outer core may cause this drift. Earth's outer core is also a rotating fluid, meaning Rossby waves circulate in the core, too. "The westward drift manifests itself primarily as a series of blobs over the Atlantic near the equator," Bardsley told Live Science, and they drift at around 10.5 miles (17 kilometers) per year. Theories to explain the drift have typically focused on the dynamics of the outer core. Rossby waves explain the weirdness of the magnetic field on Earth's surface. Surface measurements of the geomagnetic field capture the bulk of energy movement, Bardsley said, but not all the wiggly little details. So Rossby waves with a large-scale tendency to move energy westward could explain the westward drift measured over the Atlantic Ocean.

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#92 2019-02-11 20:16:09

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

We have many of our technologies that rely on knowing the north versus south and when the poles wander we have lots of issues for a planet.
Here on earth I think pigeons and others sense the magnetic forces and since we are now heading toward siberia with the pole the surprise movement of polar bears seems to be another.
Not posting for the climate thing by only the condition of where is north.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-pol … ndangered/

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#93 2019-02-28 21:43:16

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Cluster Spacecraft Reveal Insights into Earth's Natural Particle Accelerator

esa-cluster-data-earth-magnetosphere-leaky-upper-atmosphere-hg.jpg

The Sun continuously ejects a stream of charged particles travelling at supersonic speeds from 300 to over 1,000 km/s. When this "solar wind" plasma reaches Earth, it encounters an obstacle which is the Earth's protective magnetic shield, creating a shockwave when the solar wind decelerates.

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#94 2019-03-08 09:33:36

knightdepaix
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

The following idea is very simple enough to be not working... Physics tells us that a moving magnet induces a circular electric field. Phobos takes 7 hours and 39 minutes and 10 seconds almost to complete one period cycle and Phobos also rotates. Can a huge alternate circuit electromagnet be powered by nuclear or microwave on Phobos that the electromagnet appears always moving away from Mars? Then an induced electric field acts as a magnetosphere.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2019-03-09 08:21:21)

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#95 2019-03-08 09:56:02

kbd512
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

A plasma injected into a rotating electromagnetic field should provide sufficient shielding.  It's been sub-scale tested in the lab by MSNW LLC and worked quite well.  Some of the plasma would invariably be lost over time, which means you need a replenishment source.  Mars has Argon.  If Phobos has water, then Hydrogen could be used instead.  I don't think you'd actually need a nuclear reactor to run it.  Solar power and batteries would be entirely sufficient.  The plasma is what intercepts or deflects the charged particles.  The plasma sheath expands or contracts with pressure from the solar wind.  This concept is akin to running VASIMR with an external electromagnet to generate a plasma cloud around the base instead of generating thrust.

Is this intended to be a permanent orbital base / staging area with electromagnetic shielding from SPE's and GCR's?

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#96 2019-03-09 08:41:03

knightdepaix
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Thanks Kbd512. I was thinking if an artificial magnetosphere can be mounted with current technology on a celestial body and make use of the orbital and rotational "energies" of the bodies near Mars or Mars itself. Given that patches of magnetic field are present on locations on Mars, an artifical magentosphere that is close and powerful enough to the planet Mars can induce magnetic field near the surface of Mars: the same very simple idea of iron fillings on a sheet of paper align themselves with a nearby magnetic field. Can the iron oxides on the crust magnetizable? If so could there be a weak but global magnetic field from the combination of the artificial magnetosphere and the artificial permanent magnet on the crust?

Last edited by knightdepaix (2019-03-09 08:42:35)

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#97 2019-03-09 12:47:49

kbd512
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

At the rate that Mars is losing atmosphere from the solar wind, there's probably enough material being lost that it could be collected by the magnetic field and used to provide the plasma bubble.  That would drastically cut down on the ionizable gas supply requirements.  On the surface of Mars, electrostatic field generators could provide sufficient deflection of incoming ions to re-route most of them around a stationary surface structure like an inflatable dome in a crater where humans could live.  As others have pointed out, even the thin atmosphere at the surface of Mars is probably too dense to adequately ionize with an electromagnet of reasonable power.  The electrostatic method would work in space, too.  I would like to try both methods so that we have a more complete portfolio of technologies to choose from.

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#98 2019-03-09 21:11:42

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

A constellation of nuclear satelites would foot the bill circling mars as well, which gives communications and many more capabilities that we would want in them.

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#99 2019-03-12 21:32:30

SpaceNut
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

It appears that having a strong magnetosphere might not be enough as Radioactive particles from huge solar storm found in Greenland.

Scientists studying ice nearly half a kilometer beneath the surface found a band of radioactive elements unleashed by a storm that struck the planet in 660BC

This is just one such find and most likely there is probably more in the past that we still have not found evidence of as of yet and they could have been strong enough to have cause damage to mars.

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#100 2019-04-18 21:33:42

knightdepaix
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Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

http://infogram-thumbs-1024.s3.amazonaw … 19cdbb.jpg

I try to understand previous posts but can the sunlight and cosmic rays that shine onto Mars be used to generate magnetic field? Assuming statistically only a limited spectrum of wavelengths shines on Mars, then artificial latitudinal electric fields can be mounted in the higher atmosphere over human settlements. Those electric fields are in phase and in constructive interference with the electromagnetic radiation on Mars. Then artificial longitudinal magnetic fields are created in limited portion of the sky.

In other words, where the radiation shines, there will be magnetic field. No plasma is needed so in idea no loss of particles.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2019-04-18 21:34:14)

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