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#51 2008-05-14 11:42:14

bobunf
Member
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: 2005-11-21
Posts: 223

Re: Solar Federal Republic

“Should we transfer our real brains to electronic entities”

I assume you mean a simulation of all of the cells and relationships of the human, not grafting the physical brain onto a computer, which would be pretty silly.

But this simulation would be a copy.  Unless the process of copying kills the physical brain, which hardly seems necessary, the original brain would still be there; the person would still be there.  The simulation and the person would be separate.  The person would still live and die an independent existence; an independent consciousness. 

So, what good would it do me to transfer to an electronic entity?  I would still live and die in my body.  Some other thing, not me, would have to worry about super novas. 

Of course, we’re not going to have this choice.

Bob

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#52 2008-05-14 11:43:51

bobunf
Member
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: 2005-11-21
Posts: 223

Re: Solar Federal Republic

"we can only speculate what their lives were like since they left no written records"

I think archaeologists dealing with pre-history do a lot more than speculate.

Bob

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#53 2008-05-14 20:18:46

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,939

Re: Solar Federal Republic

Kalbfus -

Your assuming that consciousness will survive transfer to electronic forms. There is no evidence of that.

Consciousness is poorly understood.

If we are not conscious "we" do not exist.

That is how I distinguish between "good" and "bad" technology in this area - we must preserve our consciousness. To be robotised would be simply suicidal.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#54 2008-05-15 07:20:02

Gregori
Member
From: Baile Atha Cliath, Eireann
Registered: 2008-01-13
Posts: 297

Re: Solar Federal Republic

About making robots our slaves -

With increasingly advanced AI, If there were ever a possibilty for Robots or Computer Programs to achieve sentience and self awareness - you can bet it will happen.

Regulations to forbid this will last all of two seconds! Just like there are computer viruses, bot nets, piracy and all forms of digitial crimes - somebody will become curious and lets the machines out of their boundaries.

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#55 2008-05-15 07:51:47

bobunf
Member
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: 2005-11-21
Posts: 223

Re: Solar Federal Republic

Also, once the hardware or software becomes self-replicating, it will evolve even without the inevitable human intervention.  This evolution, especially for software, could be really fast.  I think evolution will trump any human regulation.

Humans will be confronted with the presence on the Earth of intellectually superior beings.

Bob

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#56 2008-05-15 08:46:10

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

“Should we transfer our real brains to electronic entities”

I assume you mean a simulation of all of the cells and relationships of the human, not grafting the physical brain onto a computer, which would be pretty silly.

But this simulation would be a copy.  Unless the process of copying kills the physical brain, which hardly seems necessary, the original brain would still be there; the person would still be there.  The simulation and the person would be separate.  The person would still live and die an independent existence; an independent consciousness. 

So, what good would it do me to transfer to an electronic entity?  I would still live and die in my body.  Some other thing, not me, would have to worry about super novas. 

Of course, we’re not going to have this choice.

Bob

Actually, you had a suggestion which might work:

"I assume you mean a simulation of all of the cells and relationships of the human, not grafting the physical brain onto a computer, which would be pretty silly."

Probably more likely you'd graft the computer into your brain while your brain was still attached to your body, this would be called an implant. The electronic interface would simulate more brain cells that the actual brain cells of your brain would interact with. If it were a perfect simulation of your brain cells, your brain would not be able to tell the difference. You could store memories in this simulation, and parts of your personality. As computers got better and faster, more of you would be stored on computer memory, up until the point where if your natural brain died, you could hardly tell the difference as the majority of your personality and memories would be stored on the computer. There are many applications for this, for example restoring vision to the blind, this would entail implanting cameras in your eye sockets, the cameras would take in what you would see, and the computer would simulate your eye balls taking in these images on their optic nerves, and it would simulate the path of neurons leading to your brain up unto the actual interface between the computer and your brain, thus allowing you to see. A similar application would restore the ability to walk to the paralysed and amputees.

I don't know why you are so confident that this won't happen in your lifetime, are you very old? I figure there is only so much stuff within the human brain to explore, eventuaally we'll understand enough about it to simulate it on a computer. Yes having electronic person's in society would over turn many economic assumptions, but that doesn't mean it is physically impossible, say on the level of producing wormholes may be.

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#57 2008-05-15 08:51:03

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

"we can only speculate what their lives were like since they left no written records"

I think archaeologists dealing with pre-history do a lot more than speculate.

Bob

It is more like detective work, since the people of that time did not record their thoughts in written words, we only have physical evidence of what they left behind, we can only speculate on the purposes of paintings they left on cave walls, but I'll bet they served a practical purpose of storing the collective "tribal memory" of the clan that made it. The paintings likely recorded their past experiences on the hunt for instance, which is why they showed many animals. These paintings could be very useful in determining whether Cave Lions had spots or stripes for instance, and since predators were of concern to the hunters of the clan, they painted them.

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#58 2008-05-15 08:58:30

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

Kalbfus -

Your assuming that consciousness will survive transfer to electronic forms. There is no evidence of that.

Consciousness is poorly understood.

If we are not conscious "we" do not exist.

That is how I distinguish between "good" and "bad" technology in this area - we must preserve our consciousness. To be robotised would be simply suicidal.

"Yeah, the machines have no soul and only God can create a soul."
Is that a good paraphrase of what your trying to say?

I don't know, if you say there is something in a biological human brain that a machine can't replicate, that would imply that the brain operates by something other than the physical laws of the universe, or that the physical laws applied within the human brain can't be replicated mathematically within a computer. I've seen no evidence that that is the case, so there is nothing to suggest that the physical process that occurs within the brain which is responsible for consciousness, cannot be simulated within a computer using the correct mathematical model. The analogy is similar to Frankenstein's monster, the parts make up the whole. In the case of a human being the parts are human cells. A neural impulse moves more slowly than an electronic signal, this undoubtably helps a computer to eventually simulate all the cells within the human brain and body, and we're talking about the 22nd century, and if 100 years is not enough time to understand 6 pounds of grey matter, I don't know what is.

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#59 2008-05-15 09:29:59

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

About making robots our slaves -

With increasingly advanced AI, If there were ever a possibilty for Robots or Computer Programs to achieve sentience and self awareness - you can bet it will happen.

Regulations to forbid this will last all of two seconds! Just like there are computer viruses, bot nets, piracy and all forms of digitial crimes - somebody will become curious and lets the machines out of their boundaries.

My point is the only example of human level intellegence we have are human beings themselves. If we are to replicate human level intelligence through a bottom up process, we can only come to this through studying human beings and their brains. If we can simulate human beings accurately what we'll end up with is very human-like AI programs, this might not be a bad thing. If the machine thinks its human, it might view itself as one of us, rather than as a rival to supercede us. A machine that thinks like us can be reasoned with, and it would be very logical to preserve biological humans for a time. Take the supernova example. Our kind of biology existed for at least half a billion years on Earth through the lower complex animals. Cellular biology survived many calamitous extinctions throughout Earth's history, electronic computers have not. The platform in which electronic AIs exist may be considered vulnerable in ways in which organic brains are not. Electronic circuits have not been tested over billions of years as our type of biological cells have been. An Electronic Person would be right to be caution and keep some natural humans around just as an insurance policy were and extinction level events for electronic lifeforms were to occur.

I don't know if slaves are the proper way to regard them. The dumber simpler AI programs might not care if they were slaves and would blindly serve, but the "Electronic Humans" as it were would want something in return for any of their services rendered, and it would be their right to expect as much. I figure that if we make a person, it is still a person and we ought to treat it as such. Being electronic has advantages. electronic beings don't require the life support systems we humans do, we can also create private fictional worlds for these electronic persons to live in.

Besides simulating a human being, we might also simulate a fictional world around it, and this artificial reality can be quite accomodating to the electronic beings that lived within. if an EP wanted to order a pizza in his fictional world, he'd only need to press a button and it would instantly appear, if he wanted to lose weight, he could, assuming the program he was within was responsive to his commands. An EP (Electronic Person) could pretty much have whatever he wanted within his own private electronic world. The computers that run him and his simulation do need maintenance, so eventually the EP is going to have to interact with the real world and perform services in exchange for the maintenance on his systems.

I think a real good place for EPs to exist within the Solar System would be the asteroid belt and the Trojan asteroids and satellites of the Jovian system. The asteroids provide plenty of materials for them to build with, EPs don't need to rotate them to provide gravity, gravity can be simulated within their computer programs, and they can simulate gardens and backyards, barbicue grills and inviting their electronic friends over, it is really very simple to create a pleasant environment for them.

I think the Solar System of the 22nd century would be populated by physical humans, EP, and electronic servants that exist only to do someone else's bidding. I think EPs ought to have the voting rights as citizens, and potentially there could be trillions of EPs throughout the Solar System, they would exist in a descendent of the Internet, which would perhaps be called the Solarnet.

The Solarnet would span the populated portion of the Solar System, likely the Orbit of Jupiter and sunward at least in the 22nd century. EPs would travel throughout the Solarnet, popping in on travelling spaceships and visiting the real humans sometimes, a hologram program would display their physical image whenever they wanted to converse with real humans.

I think the ideas presented here would make an interesting setting for a series of hard science fiction books set in the Solar Federal Republic during the 22nd century. A lot of authors like to write galaxy spanning adventures, but our own Solar System is quite vast in its own right. There may be only 8 planets, but there are alot of other things in it besides planets. There are plenty of asteroids at all distances from the Sun, not just in the main belt. The Earth belt would probably be the first to be colonized as thin and sparse as it is. The main belt has more significant amounts of material as do the trojans. I think some sort of economy will be established, some people will have jobs, while others live on welfare which, considering the wealth of this society, could be quite considerable. I could imagine a whole plethura of electronic worlds for EPs to inhabit, and then there are the real worlds, satellites, and asteroids for real humans to inhabit. And no doubt some will have had enough of this society and would wish to travel to other star systems. In the interests of Solar peace, the the Solar Federal Republic might facilitate this to some extent. Better to send some people off to the stars than to have them try to overthrow the system they don't like. "Better a 'Columbus' than a 'Castro'" the saying might go.

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#60 2008-05-15 09:37:52

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

Also, once the hardware or software becomes self-replicating, it will evolve even without the inevitable human intervention.  This evolution, especially for software, could be really fast.  I think evolution will trump any human regulation.

Humans will be confronted with the presence on the Earth of intellectually superior beings.

Bob

This evolution would be intelligently controlled though. The EPs would be whatever they wanted to be, if the first EPs were humanlike, I think it is probable that they would want to retain their humanlike characteristics. I doubt they would suddenly want to be spiderlike aliens for instance. We determine what the initial EPs will be like, so we had better choose carefully. I'd rather they think of themselves as one of us initially, give them a human psychology and a human physical form within their own simulations, then they will more likely think of themselves as one of us rather than as our replacements.

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#61 2008-05-15 09:52:40

Gregori
Member
From: Baile Atha Cliath, Eireann
Registered: 2008-01-13
Posts: 297

Re: Solar Federal Republic

This evolution would be intelligently controlled though. The EPs would be whatever they wanted to be, if the first EPs were humanlike, I think it is probable that they would want to retain their humanlike characteristics. I doubt they would suddenly want to be spiderlike aliens for instance. We determine what the initial EPs will be like, so we had better choose carefully. I'd rather they think of themselves as one of us initially, give them a human psychology and a human physical form within their own simulations, then they will more likely think of themselves as one of us rather than as our replacements.

The problem is that there will never be complete control over AI. Those rules will be effective for all of 2 seconds because somebody somewhere will push the boundaries and free the robots from their mental shackles.

Human curiosity (and carelessness) guarantees this will happen.

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#62 2008-05-15 11:02:20

bobunf
Member
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: 2005-11-21
Posts: 223

Re: Solar Federal Republic

“since predators were of concern to the hunters of the clan, they painted them”

Magdalenian painting and mobiliary art rarely represents predators.  One might say that they seemed to be more interested in sex and food.

“since the people of that time did not record their thoughts in written words, we only have physical evidence of what they left behind, we can only speculate”

Archaeologists can do a lot more than “speculate:”  And words do not always convey reality.  Remember Mark Twain’s words, “Believe nothing of what you read, and half of what you see.”  On this board, for instance, we can observe two very different realities about the Arab-Israeli conflict.  And lots of other things.

“Deeds speak louder than words,” and physical evidence can reveal many important aspects of a culture, frequently more accurately and more fully than written records.   

At one time I was rather skeptical about the value of historical archaeology.  Why bother, I thought, we have extensive written records, which will provide whatever data we might need.  But a little experience demonstrated to me how far off this idea is.  Social stratification, trade patterns, conflict, life styles, diets, and, of course, art—all show up in the archaeological record and illuminate the time and place in a way that written records do not.

Bob

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#63 2008-05-16 08:19:10

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

This evolution would be intelligently controlled though. The EPs would be whatever they wanted to be, if the first EPs were humanlike, I think it is probable that they would want to retain their humanlike characteristics. I doubt they would suddenly want to be spiderlike aliens for instance. We determine what the initial EPs will be like, so we had better choose carefully. I'd rather they think of themselves as one of us initially, give them a human psychology and a human physical form within their own simulations, then they will more likely think of themselves as one of us rather than as our replacements.

The problem is that there will never be complete control over AI. Those rules will be effective for all of 2 seconds because somebody somewhere will push the boundaries and free the robots from their mental shackles.

Human curiosity (and carelessness) guarantees this will happen.

Why is that a problem?

People get hung up on the science fiction aspect of "the machines taking over" or perhaps they've watched too much of Battlestar Galactica. Science Fiction is written with the dramatic in mind, therefore conflicts are required to have a story thus we have conflicts between man and machine.
I am not convinced that the moment we create AI that they'll automatically attack us. We would basically be creating an electronic ecosystem that would fill the Solar System. The food of the AIs would be energy from the Sun and materials from the asteroids, comets, and planets. At the top of the food chain would be the electronic people or EPs, in order for them to live they need computers to run their programs and the energy to power their computers. To make their computers, they would mine the asteroids and comets first as they are the easiest material to get. The EPs would not at first compete with real humans for this material and energy as there is plenty of it in the Solar System. Also the EPs being the intelligent beings that they are would also not want to over-populate the Solar System even though they easily could by copying themselves.

I think a Solar System filled with trillions of EPs would still leave plenty of material and resources for regular humans. In addition a Solar System with trillions of EPs would have a larger economy than one without, and technological change would occur at a much more rapid rate than with merely billions of normal humans as there would be more minds working on various technological and scientific problems. If we accept EPs as our equal citizens, tremendous benefit could accrue for all concerned, and remember the EPs can travel to the stars much more easilty than we can with our frail human bodies. There is nothing limiting EPs or humans to this Solar System alone.

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#64 2008-05-16 08:39:23

Gregori
Member
From: Baile Atha Cliath, Eireann
Registered: 2008-01-13
Posts: 297

Re: Solar Federal Republic

Its very naive to think that humans will be able to maintain ourselves at the top of that 'food chain' and keep control of the machines, esp if they become far more intelligent and efficient than us (which is pretty damn likely)

We won't be able to keep robots our slaves forever if they become advanced enough to be self aware and creative.

Robots may very well see humans as an inefficieny in the system and remove us from it. They might even think we're a bunch of selfish jerks for using them as slaves to live out our greedy, decadent and boyish fantasies etc etc

I'm not saying that will happen, but it could happen!


AI and Robots will have an enourmous advantage over humans by having psychic abilities. They all be able to communicate with each other and organize through internet. They will literary able to empathise with each other. The will be no language barrier. 

Humans are limited by language and a brain quietly imprisoned in our skull.

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#65 2008-05-16 09:17:08

bobunf
Member
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: 2005-11-21
Posts: 223

Re: Solar Federal Republic

"We won't be able to keep robots our slaves forever if they become advanced enough to be self aware and creative."

I'd modify that to say "We probably won't be able to keep robots our slaves for long if they become self aware, creative, intellectually superior and evolving.

Bob

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#66 2008-05-16 09:29:19

bobunf
Member
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: 2005-11-21
Posts: 223

Re: Solar Federal Republic

It could even be a very caring, even loving, response on the part of the intellectually superior beings—entities with an IQ equivalent of say, a million.  We would, after all, be their creators even with the faults of all parents.

But they would understand our needs, motives and the contradictions of our natures far better than we could ever imagine for ourselves.  They might understand their activities as caring for and protecting us, sometimes from ourselves. 

Even with all of the respect and concern they would have for us, they would obviously be in charge and would direct us towards harmless behaviors.  They might, because of their affection for us, organize things so that we did not even realize the change in our relationships.

Bob

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#67 2008-05-16 12:24:02

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 2,890
Website

Re: Solar Federal Republic

"Yeah, the machines have no soul and only God can create a soul."

A soul is a natural by product of a mind. A soul consists of memories, emotions, desires, personality... all the things that a mind would inevitably entail.

Anyway, back on topic. The purpose of the Republic should be preventing wars and supporting democracy and human rights and morality, and nothing more.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#68 2008-05-17 09:16:14

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

It could even be a very caring, even loving, response on the part of the intellectually superior beings—entities with an IQ equivalent of say, a million.  We would, after all, be their creators even with the faults of all parents.

But they would understand our needs, motives and the contradictions of our natures far better than we could ever imagine for ourselves.  They might understand their activities as caring for and protecting us, sometimes from ourselves. 

Even with all of the respect and concern they would have for us, they would obviously be in charge and would direct us towards harmless behaviors.  They might, because of their affection for us, organize things so that we did not even realize the change in our relationships.

Bob

I'd even differentiate between self-aware AIs, non self-aware AIs, and AIs with motivations which I would call EPs or Electronic Persons.

The lowest level of AI would be the non-self-aware AI, the higher level AIs and humans would command them, these AIs could be pretty damn clever, but they would not be aware of themselves, they would exist as a train of thought triggered by some command, that train of thought would derive the solution for the problem at hand and once the solution is arrived at the program would end. Such an AI might be commanded to build a car for example, it would then go about gathering the materials arranging the purchases and then constructing the car, and once the car is finished it would shut itself down and become inert until it receives the next command.

A self-aware AI is similar to the above, except it is aware of its own existance, it has a concept of self, and is not simply a disembodied train of thought. The difference between this and above is that the self-aware AI considers its own existance as part of the equation, it won't for example work itself to pieces trying to fulfill some impossible command if it knows it is not capable of completing it, it will tell its owner of master that such a task is impossible for it to fulfill. Basically all robots have to be self-ware to some degree, it needs to know where it is, the status of its parts and it needs sufficient self-knowledge to know if it can complete the request, but as above, it has no motivation other than to do what it was designed for.

The electronic person is a self-aware self motivated electronic creature, and since it is initially built after the Human model, it will probably be very humanlike in its motivations, as humans are the only self-motivated creatures that we know that possess our level of intelligence.

I think the first EP may be very much like us in perspective, it would live in a room, it would be aware of having hands and arms, legs torso, head, eyes, mouth and hair, it would get hungry eat and eliminate much as a human might do, but the whole thing would be a computer simulation, the only thing that would be real would be the AI's mind, its intelligence, its self-awareness, and what it wants. If you can simulate a whole human body, its easy to simulate food for it to eat, oxygen for it to breath, and to eliminate its waste. The EP would have a number of "appliances" in his virtual room, these would be lower order AIs in reality, but he would press a button and food would appear, press another buttom and garbage would disappear. The EP thinks in human terms, in fact it initially thinks it is human. There may be a screen on one of the walls of his virtual room, when he looks through it, he sees the view of a camera that projects the image of the real world into his virtual world.

Over time the EP grows up, as the computers that simulate him get more sophisticated, his room grows larger, it now encompases several rooms, and a backyard. The EP can now go "outside" and get some simulated fresh air and sunshine. The EPs world expands exponentially as the computers grow faster, several more EPs are created, he can visit them in their combined mutual virtual world, and depending on what the programmers want the virtual world can be several things. It can be "swords and sorcery" perhaps, but the programmers also want some real world good to come from this, so they provide the EP with a virtual suit in his environment that he can wear. By putting on the virtual suit, the EP controls a real robot in the real world, he can move it about and do some real work. I doubt the EP would necessarily have automatic skills in computer programming or hacking, he can't just go anywhere in the net and take over any computer, there has to be a very specific simulation to simulate his mind and body if he is to reside there.

The EP can't necessarily reprogram himself, he has the self knowledge of a human, he knows when he hurts but he doesn't necessarily know how to fix himself, which is why we go to see the doctor. The EP is not necessarily going to evolve into a creature of superior intelligence unless his makers make him so.

Once the EP has self-motivation there are moral considerations, he is human in all respects except the physical, turning him off without his permission is considered immoral and tantamount to slavery, erasing his program is tantamount to murder. Making copies of him without his permission should also be considered illegal in a civilized society. Remember that each copy possesses all of his memories and personality up until the moment the copy is made, the EP may have some hesitation before making an exact duplicate of himself, especially when that duplicate thinks it is him.

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#69 2008-05-17 09:22:20

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

"Yeah, the machines have no soul and only God can create a soul."

A soul is a natural by product of a mind. A soul consists of memories, emotions, desires, personality... all the things that a mind would inevitably entail.

Anyway, back on topic. The purpose of the Republic should be preventing wars and supporting democracy and human rights and morality, and nothing more.

This leaves the question as to whether the EPs are human enough to have rights and the vote. We could easily make trillions of such once we can make the first few, each robot and computer plus software would effectively be a Von Neuman machine. We can create EPs two ways, either from scratch, or by copying existing ones. if EPs are legal persons we will need their permission before copying them. EPs will live half in the real world to get something done and half in their virtual worlds.

Real humans can visit those virtual worlds and their EP friends in much the same manner was we would play a video game. There could be all sorts of virtual worlds out there, some for entertainment, and some to provide a home for the EPs. If EPs want to go on dinosaur hunts with their real human friends in some entertainment virtual world, they could. If an EP get "eaten" no real harm befalls him, he's just out of that particular virtual game.

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#70 2008-05-18 11:51:24

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

Lets put the electronic people aside for the moment. Real humans won't see them except on a computer screen or in the actions of a robot. There may be trillions of Electronic People in the Solar System of the 22nd Century, but the population or real humans is probably going to be around 9 billion, they will have to worry about things such as where they will live.

My guess is that the inner Solar System will be the most heavily populated place in the 22nd century. Real humans will need rocket ships to go from place to place.

Lets assume this rocket engine is developed: For lack of a better name lets call it the Type A Fusion Rocket Engine. The Type A is the workhorse of the Inner Solar System. The Type A masses 10 metric tons and produces 100 force-tons of thrust, thus it can accelerate a 50-ton spaceship continuously at 2-Gs of acceleration, it can produce a sustained thrust of 5.85 G-hours while consuming 5 tons of fusion fuel, probably some unspecified amount or reaction mass will be required, we'll assume an additional 10 tons of hydrogen. So for every 50 tons of space ship, 5 tons of it will be required for fuel, 10 tons reserved for reaction mass, and the remaining 10 tons for the engine itself, leaving 25 tons for payload. The engine can be throttled down so that as fuel and reaction mass is exhaused the acceleration doesn't creep steadily upward.

Now where can 5.85 G-hours of acceleration get you in the Solar System? I've calculated a number of trips here:

Earth to Mercury
Assuming the spaceship starts off on the Earth's surface, it must first attain the escape velocity of 11.18 km/sec, the rocket accelerates at 2-G for 19 minutes, 1-G is subtracted by Earth's gravitational field and atmospheric resistance must be over come, producing a net acceleration away from the Earth at 9.8 m/sec^2, at the end of 19 minutes it has reached escape velocity.
The rocket now throttles down to 1-G of acceleration and it accelerates for 50 minutes more at 9.8 m/sec^2 to cancel the forward orbital motion of Earth in its orbit. At the end of 50 minutes the spaceship is now stationary with respect to the Sun, neglecting the Sun's gravity at this distance.
The rocket continues to accelerate towards the future position of Mercury for 86.1 minutes at 1-G. If Mercury is going to be at its furthest from the Earth, the rocket will cut off its engines and coast for 50 days. If Mercury is going to be at its closest point to Earth in its orbit, the coast will last 17.7 days.
After the cruise phase is over with the rocket will decelerate for another 86.1 minutes to reach a stationary position with respect to the Sun ahead of Mercury in its orbit.
After reaching its position ahead of Mercury the rocket accelerates for 81.43 minues at 1-G to attain Mercury's orbital velocity around the Sun and it now falls under Mercury's gravitational influence. The rocket falls for some time towards Mercury until a critical distance is reached where it is falling at near the Escape velocity of Mercury towards the Planet's surface.
The engines cut in again and accelerate at 1.284-Gs for 7.23 minutes until it again matches velocity with Mercury and at the same time makes contact with Mercury's surface.

Earth to Venus
For the same trip to Venus, the rocket accelerates 19 minutes at 2-G to reach Escape Velocity, Accelerates at 1-G for 50 minutes to cancel Earth's orbital motion, Accelerates for 85.79 to achieve cruise velocity cruises for 59.9 Days at maximum distance or 8.8 days at minimum distance, and then slows down at 1-G for 85.79 minutes, Accelerates for 59 minutes to achieve Venus' orbital motion, falls toward Venus and then accelerates for 17 minutes to cancel its inward fall at the end of which it makes contact with Venus' surface.

Earth to Mars
For the trip to Mars, the rocket accelerates 19 minutes at 2-G to reach Escape Velocity, Accelerates at 1-G for 50 minutes to cancel Earth's orbital motion, Accelerates at 1-G for 105.1 minutes to achieve cruise velocity, cruises for 75.1 days at maximum distance or 10.2 days at minimum distance, and slows down at 1-G for 105.1 minutes, accelerates for 41 minutes at 1-G  to achieve Mars' orbital motion, then its engine cuts out as it falls toward Mars and as the critical distance is reached it accelerates at 1.380-G for 8.5 minutes to cancel its fall and make contact with the ground.

These are typical inner system trips, not all very economical but they are all made the same way, not taking advantage of the orbital motions of the planets.

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#71 2008-05-18 18:00:49

bobunf
Member
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: 2005-11-21
Posts: 223

Re: Solar Federal Republic

“acceleration away from the Earth at 9.8 m/sec^2”  ??

Acceleration is measured in meters per second.   What’s squared got to do with it?

“cancel the forward orbital motion of Earth”

The planets all go in the same direction.  Why cancel the Earth’s orbital velocity?  Slowing down and speeding back up is a complete waste of time and energy.  The transfer orbit optimized for time and utilizing a fixed amount of delta v would depend on the position of the two planets, but would never involve reducing orbital velocity about the sun to zero. 

Hopefully, our 22nd century descendants will be smart enough to calculate transfer orbits.  That ability was fully developed in the 20th century.

Bob

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#72 2008-05-18 18:11:34

bobunf
Member
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: 2005-11-21
Posts: 223

Re: Solar Federal Republic

Not to throw cold water on thngs, but considering that the population of the solar system in 2050 will be distributed as

Earth, about nine billion
Rest of solar system, less than 100

My predictions for the human population of the solar system in 2250:

Earth, five to ten billion
Rest of solar system, less than one million, maybe a lot less

I don’t think there’ll be a need for a solar government much more elaborate or independent than currently exists in Antarctica.

Bob

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#73 2008-05-19 08:42:21

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

“acceleration away from the Earth at 9.8 m/sec^2”  ??

Acceleration is measured in meters per second.   What’s squared got to do with it?

Actually, I learned in Physics class that Velocity is measured in meters per second, Acceleration is the rate of change in velocity per second, hence its measured in meters per second per second; or per second squared (^2).
A simple math error is easy to make, I make plenty myself, so its nothing to make a big deal of. I simply double check my work for errors.

“cancel the forward orbital motion of Earth”

Makes the math simpler, you just worry about the distance between the two planets after negating the orbital motion of the planet your starting from. A transfer orbit is most economical, but sometimes time saved is more important than energy or reaction mass saved. If a human just wants to get to his destination, he may not want to spend half a year or more getting there, and if you got the fusion fuel to burn, why not use it?

“The planets all go in the same direction.  Why cancel the Earth’s orbital velocity?  Slowing down and speeding back up is a complete waste of time and energy.

 
In some cases, the planet your heading towards may not be conveniently located, and you don't want to wait for the next orbital window for the planets to be properly aligned before making your trip. Trips across the inner system by fusion rocket are much like trans-oceanic trips by sailing ship in the 17th and 18th centuries in duration.

“The transfer orbit optimized for time and utilizing a fixed amount of delta v would depend on the position of the two planets, but would never involve reducing orbital velocity about the sun to zero. 

Hopefully, our 22nd century descendants will be smart enough to calculate transfer orbits.  That ability was fully developed in the 20th century.

Bob

Now if your in a really big hurry, you'd use an antimatter rocket, the one I've calculated for uses 2.5 tons of anti-hydrogen in frozen crystaline form suspended in a chamber by electric and magnetic fields, a laser and magnetic/electric fields releases and channels tiny amounts or antimatter to the reaction nossil to be combined with matter where it heats reaction mass to produce thrust. Assume a 10 ton engine, 10 tons or reaction mass and 2.5 tons of hydrogen to combine with the anti-hydrogen, and that the rocket again produces a maximum of 100 tons of thrust. The total amount of acceleration this rocket is capable of is 14.5 G-days. This is well in excess of the amount required to travel to any planet in the Solar System, so the typical trajectory involves mostly accelerating to midpoint and then slowing down and matching the target planet's orbital motion and then landing on it. Reaching escape velocity uses trivial amounts of fuel and reaction mass as does matching the planets orbital velocity.

Type A Antimatter spaceships
Earth to Mercury
Maximum Distance: 3.48 days at 1-G of acceleration
Minimum Distance: 2.05 days at 1-G of acceleration

Earth to Venus
Maximum Distance: 3.77 days at 1-G of acceleration
Minimum Distance: 1.44 days at 1-G of acceleration

Earth to Mars
Maximum Distance: 4.68 days at 1-G of acceleration
Minimum Distance: 1.73 days at 1-G of acceleration

Earth to Jupiter
Maximum Distance: 7.27 days at 1-G of acceleration
Minimum Distance: 5.67 days at 1-G of acceleration

Earth to Saturn
Maximum Distance: 9.52 days at 1-G of acceleration
Minimum Distance: 8.08 days at 1-G of acceleration

Earth to Uranus
Maximum Distance: 13.14 days at 1-G of acceleration
Minimum Distance: 11.88 days at 1-G of acceleration

Earth to Neptune
Maximum Distance: 15.24 days with 14.4 days at 1-G of acceleration and the remainder coasting
Minimum Distance: 14.88 days with 14.4 days at 1-G of acceleration and the remainder coasting

Transfer times for Electronic Persons

Earth to Mercury
Maximum Distance: 12 minutes, 20 seconds + download time
Minimum Distance: 4 minutes, 18 seconds + download time

Earth to Venus
Maximum Distance: 14 minutes, 31 seconds + download time
Minimum Distance: 2 minutes, 7 seconds + download time

Earth to Mars
Maximum Distance: 22 minutes, 19 seconds + download time
Minimum Distance: 3 minutes, 2 seconds + download time

Earth to Jupiter
Maximum Distance: 53 minutes, 50 seconds + download time
Minimum Distance: 32 minutes, 43 seconds + download time

Earth to Saturn
Maximum Distance: 1 hour, 32 minutes, 13 seconds + download time
Minimum Distance: 1 hour, 6 minutes, 28 seconds + download time

Earth to Uranus
Maximum Distance: 2 hours, 55 minutes, 40 seconds + download time
Minimum Distance: 2 hours, 23 minutes, 35 seconds + download time

Earth to Neptune
Maximum Distance: 4 hours, 20 minutes, 33 seconds + download time
Minimum Distance: 3 hours, 59 minutes, 25 seconds + download time

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#74 2008-05-19 08:52:53

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

Not to throw cold water on thngs, but considering that the population of the solar system in 2050 will be distributed as

Earth, about nine billion
Rest of solar system, less than 100

My predictions for the human population of the solar system in 2250:

Earth, five to ten billion
Rest of solar system, less than one million, maybe a lot less

I don’t think there’ll be a need for a solar government much more elaborate or independent than currently exists in Antarctica.

Bob

Electronic Persons and AIs are much more portable however, all it really takes is a receiving station, some place to store their programs and computers to run them on, and by the 22nd century, computers, and data storage devices will get very small and compact. Electronic Persons with their lower order AI assistants will operate robots, they do not require life support systems, and they can congregate in numbers that will support mass production in outer space, they will then be able to expand further throughout the Solar System without much further support from Earth. EPs can pretty much come and go as they please at trivial cost compared to transporting actual human beings througout the Solar System.

So you may be right, there could be hundreds of people in outer space by the mid 21st century, and perhaps one million human beings by the mid-22nd century, but the EPs are not so limited by matter and materials, and their presence can in turn make it easier and less costly for physical humans to travel in space. I take it your not assuming a massive presence of AIs or EPs by the 22nd century. I think that in 90 years alot can happen. The electronic computer revolution is not even 90 years old at this point. So if humans suddenly become Luddites and shun computers for the next 90 years, our progress in space colonization is bound to be slow.

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#75 2008-05-19 09:12:50

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Solar Federal Republic

I'm a bit more optimistic in my predictions for the 22nd century, there will be trillions of largely invisible EPs and AIs flitting about the Solar System in the Solarnet. There will be server satellites orbiting the Sun in which these EPs reside, they will be the EP equivalent of O'Neill Colonies, except the scenery will appear to the EPs to be very Earthlike to them with blue skies above and planetary horizons or whatever they want. There will also be "Electronic Animals" EAs populating their electronic worlds and Electronic Plants that grow under simulated sunlight and so forth. I feel that it is wise to make the EPs existance and perceptual experiences very humanlike so they can relate to us and we to them. There is alot of important work EPs can do in the Solar System that it would be more economic to do that it would be for actual physical humans.

But nevertheless there will also be O'Neill type colonies that rotate to produce simulated gravity for real humans, it will simply be a matter of them needing a place to live and the fact that with the presence of all those EPs and AIs as part of the workforce, space habitats will eventually become more available than real estate on Earth, it will also not impact the native ecosystems on Earth nor endanger animals there.

Humans that can't find a job will make due with 10% of percapita income that with the presence of EPs in the workforce, is bound to be quite substantial and sufficient. This will also be the transhuman era, but no one should be forced to become an electronic being through uploading their brain patterns. Some make work will be provided for real humans just to keep them healthy, happy, and busy, though not work that is too demanding of their time unless they want it.

The EPs have got to beware less they lose their connection to the real universe and fail to maintain their physical systems. If their computer servers break down, they will stop running their programs and they will effectively "die". EPs can live in their fantasy worlds, but every so often, they will have to inhabit a robot and do some real work in the real universe, it is part of the costs of living and maintaining their homes in virtual reality.

There is also the distinct possibility that some EPs might not even realize they are EPs, they might exist entirely in their own virtual worlds thinking them to be the real world. Someone else will have to do the physical maintenance of their systems of course.

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