Venus

Void · 2021-12-13 07:38:46

In my opinion, the question is, is there life in the clouds of Venus? I am not sure which answer I would prefer.

If no life, I really don't think trying to terraform the surface of Venus has a good pay off potential.

In my thinking adapting to what Venus has to offer is more likely to advance a solar system "Civilization".

Not that I particularly admire "Civilizations". Pretty much Psyco people in charge tormenting those under their control

But with the advent of library, I guess detailed learning can be kept as records, so that everything does not have to be re-created over and over again.

But the Jerks in charge. Generally lacking morals, and having a delusions of grandeur about their importance.

Still we have to work with something, and this seems to be as good as we can do at this time.

Well, infrastructure is helpful for wealth, and wealth helps continuation. Keeps the Woke people from burning the records (Library).

But the penalty is the people who take themselves serious about knowing the full extent of what is, and should be. We get them as well.

But, it seems we may also get Rocket Lab>Electron Rocket>Venus Probe. That's nice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-13 07:44:36)

Void · 2022-01-13 21:44:05

We certainly want to check on this prior to terraforming efforts. It is possible that such life may be compatible with cloud cities and methods to mine the surface of Venus, however.

Quote:

Something is making Venus’s clouds less acidic
Could living things explain unusual atmospheric chemistry on Venus?
BY NIKITA AMIR | PUBLISHED DEC 22, 2021 8:00 PM

https://www.popsci.com/science/study-su … rms-venus/

Quote:

Here is Why Venus May Have Life with Dr. Janusz Petkowski
YouTube · 75,000+ views · 12/20/2021 · by Event Horizon

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Wh … &FORM=VIRE

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-01-13 21:45:54)

Void · 2022-02-19 20:12:14

A gift from Anton Petrov:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Un … M%3DHDRSC3

I think the information about how the mantle of Venus would have been made twice as hot as that of Earth, is very important. That is because impactors in the "Great bombardment" would have been traveling at a faster speed.

This suggests that Venus may never have had liquid surface water for very long or at all perhaps.

Infrared pictures of the dark side of Venus are important.

Also, I find the notion of lighter than air but powered aircraft to be very good. I have always considered that it would be rather stupid to put people into such craft, and I see no indication that that is being considered. As far as atmospheric research, I think that robots can do it fine, and the added value/danger of humans included into such missions, is against the inclusion of humans at this time of course.

It is important to understand truth about Venus before contemplating Terra formation of it. But feel free to repeat this into a science topic.

I have been thinking about an "Anti-Dyson Sphere" as part of terraforming, should terraforming be desired. Perhaps synthetic habitats made on Mercury, and then propelled to Venus with Solar Photons, or Solar Wind or both. I wonder what you can get if you do both at the same time?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-19 20:17:46)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-03-11 09:23:36

Scientists hail 'the decade of Venus' with 3 new missions on the way

https://www.space.com/venus-scientists- … sions-lpsc

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-03-25 09:01:59

China may have its sights set on a mission to Venus

https://www.space.com/china-proposed-ti … lude-venus

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-04-19 15:21:36

The story of the resurgence of the Venus community as NASA prepares to send two missions back to the second planet (WeMartians Podcast)

https://wemartians.com/podcasts/117-bac … -lpsc-2022

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-05 06:38:56

Student-Built, Dime-Sized Instrument Is Venus-bound

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2022/davinci-vfox

Japan Launches New Venus Probe and Solar Sail

https://www.space.com/8432-japan-launch … -sail.html

A Planetary “Triple Crown” As Third Mission To Venus Announced
https://www.wmfe.org/a-planetary-triple … ced/182711

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-02 15:05:00

Floating Carbon Capture Forests?

A New Carbon Capture Plant Will Pull 36,000 Tons of CO2 From the Air Each Year
https://singularityhub.com/2022/06/29/a … each-year/

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-29 05:48:06

Mission Architecture to Characterize Habitability of Venus Cloud Layers via an Aerial Platform

https://astrobiology.com/2022/08/missio … tform.html

Void · 2022-11-30 20:14:22

I guess I will put this here.

Quote:

Massive volcanism may have altered ancient Venus' climate, NASA study finds
by Nick Oakes, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center

https://phys.org/news/2022-11-massive-v … 20suggests.

So, yet another possible way that Venus became what it is today.

There are other notions as well.
-The impactors hit with more energy, and so Venus maintained a magma ocean much longer than Earth.
-One theory has it that atmospheres at least partly depend on impactors. In that theory Mars had much of its atmosphere blasted away by an impact. Venus did not have much of its atmosphere blown away at all, and the Earth was just right. A proper sized glancing blow got rid of just enough of the original atmosphere.

So, you see the old theory of Venus being a jungle and sea world, and then greenhouse gasses building up so that the seas boiled, and the stratosphere got wet, is just that, one of the theories. And perhaps too much weight was given to it.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-11-30 20:21:17)

Void · 2022-12-01 11:27:47

Terraforming Venus, or just inhabiting it may be assisted by understanding the planet.

This is, of course just an opinion, but they did seem to so some science to arrive at their notions.

https://www.anl.gov/article/unlocking-t … atmosphere
Quote:

FEATURE STORY | ARGONNE NATIONAL LABORATORY
Unlocking the secrets of Earth’s early atmosphere
BY LIZ THOMPSON|APRIL 27, 2021

Quote:

“We found that the atmosphere we calculated to have been present on Earth billions of years ago was similar in composition to what we find on Venus and Mars today,” said Sossi, who knew he had the correct atmospheric composition when the iron oxidation state in their sample matched those found in ancient rocks from Earth’s mantle. “When you have an atmosphere produced from magma at the right oxidation state, you get one made up of about 97 percent carbon dioxide and 3 percent nitrogen once it cools down, the same ratio found today on Venus and Mars.”

Well, they are of the opinion that a formed the Moon, and that collision knocked Earth' original atmosphere off of the planet.

And, although, they do not seem to speculate on the original air pressure of Venus, they do think that the composition of the planet was 97% CO2, and 3% N2.

Even if the atmosphere was 1 bar of that mix, as the sun warmed up, then it might be very surprising if any liquid water existed.

From a Magma Ocean which would not allow liquid water, to a warming sun, it seems to me that the chances for water, ever for Venus, seem slim.

I suppose if it had an original pressure of .1 bar, maybe. But then you have to ask how it managed to get an atmosphere of 90 bars now.

So, more information is needed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-01 11:43:48)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-01 12:47:13

For Void re question in post #436

Your post contained a question that I find intriguing, so I asked Google:

why does venus have an atmospheric pressure of 90 bar at the surface
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Venus has about 99 times as much atmosphere by mass as Earth, but smaller surface area and lower gravity, it works out to 90 times the pressure.Mar 16, 2016
Atmospheric pressure of Venus? - Physics Stack Exchangehttps://physics.stackexchange.com › questions › atmosphe...
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As so often happens, the answer to one question leads to another .... OK ... if Venus has so much more atmosphere than Earth, how is ** that ** possible, considering the planet is so much closer to the Sun.

Perhaps an enterprising NewMars member will attempt to find out.

In any case, thanks for providing the first question!

(th)

Void · 2022-12-01 13:26:51

That is very good questioning I feel. There are so many variables, that I would probably make myself a fool to answer with certainty.

Quote the question of (th):

As so often happens, the answer to one question leads to another .... OK ... if Venus has so much more atmosphere than Earth, how is ** that ** possible, considering the planet is so much closer to the Sun.

Yes, with no current magnetic shield like Earth, how is that possible? Twice the sunshine (Approximately), and no geomagnetic field, (Except one that does not extend above the atmosphere).

Well, Venus does shed some atmosphere. Hydrogen, all the terrestrials, including the Earth loose Hydrogen to space.

I recall that Venus also loses Molecular Oxygen O2. That story says that as Venus is extremely dry it has an electric field that is much stronger than that of the Earth. So, the Oxygen gets levitated off of the planet, and the solar wind carries it off.

This article seems to support that: https://cosmosmagazine.com/space/electr … %20Express.
Quote:

In the case of Venus, the electric field is so strong that it accelerated even the heavier electrically charged component of water — oxygen ions — to speeds fast enough to escape the planet’s gravity.
The researchers discovered Venus’ electric field using the electron spectrometer aboard the Venus Express.

But Venus does have an induced magnetic field that seems to have helped hold onto the bulk of the atmosphere.

Ignoring the 97% CO2, and considering the Nitrogen, then if we ignore the various differences between Earth and Venus, 3% of 90 bars = 2.7 bars of Nitrogen. If the "Birth" atmosphere of Venus was about what it is now, then how could Venus have ever been cool, except the sun perhaps being 70% as bright as it is today? Even then, not correct.

In order to make Mars on average about as warm as Earth, with today's sun intensity, we would need 2 bars of Nitrogen. And the intensity of sunlight today is somewhat 1/2 at Mars as it is at Earth.

If the sun in the early solar system was .7 as bright as it is now, for Earth, then for Venus it would be 1.4 times as bright then as for now.

Catch me if I goof, please.

So, ignoring any other gas than Nitrogen, Venus would have 1.4 times the light then that the Earth has now, and 2.7 times as much Nitrogen, presuming that the atmosphere we see now resembles the birth atmosphere.

If the birth atmosphere was something different with less Nitrogen, then the bulk of the Nitrogen it has now would either have to come from the interior of Venus, or from an impactor. Or so I think.

It could be possible that both the Earth and Venus had that much Nitrogen in their interiors, and that Venus cooked more of it out over time. I certainly do not know. The Earth can entomb Nitrogen in sediments with liquid water.

Venus was thought to be a steaming jungle a long time ago because of the clouds and the lack of probes to analyze the planet.

So, it would not be that surprising that the first theory of the planet would have the planet first wet and then to boil its water out into space with a greenhouse effect, with various gasses on Venus holding in the heat. I don't fault them for thinking of that notion. And it might turn out to be true still, but many new theories have it that Venus never had liquid water on its surface, at least after the sun started heating up.

The latest ideas I have seen are about impactors. In one case as Venus is deeper in the sun's gravity well, the impacts heated up the planet more than Earth. Another one is that the formation of the Moon blew off the birth atmosphere of the Earth, and that never happened for Venus. So, the Earth does not have its birth atmosphere.

So, it might appear that to have a "Habitable" planet in many cases rests on seriously random events, such as an impact of the right size at the correct angle to knock off enough but not all of the atmosphere.

But the correct answer is "I don't know".

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-01 13:54:11)

SpaceNut · 2022-12-01 20:16:05

The quest Th does have an answer that is available
https://physics.stackexchange.com/quest … e-of-venus

https://www.britannica.com/place/Venus- … atmosphere

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-01 20:45:57

For SpaceNut re #439 and excellent links...

The stackexchange discussion included a fairly long reply ... I've snipped a bit of it

Venus has about 99 times as much atmosphere by mass as Earth, but smaller surface area and lower gravity, it works out to 90 times the pressure. Mars, by comparison, has about 150-200 times less atmosphere by mass than Earth. (Mars Atmosphere varies quite a bit since it's atmosphere can partially freeze during winter).
The reason why Venus atmosphere is so much more massive than Earth's isn't entirely known, but part of it is that the life on Earth was able to capture a significant portion of earth's atmosphere and trap it in the ground and in living things. Photosynthesis captures CO2 and releases O2 and the released O2 bonds with many elements on the Earth's surface, forming Granite from Basalt, and binding with the CH4 in the atmosphere, forming water.

I like the admission that the cause "isn't entirely known".... However, the idea that Earth life gobbled up the early atmosphere is an interesting one, and I'll keep that in mind as future discussions unfold.

One discovery (for me at least) that came out of the recent posts in this topic is that Sulfur-Dioxide is actually somewhat more massive than CO2, which means my proposed lifting volume using Oxygen would be able to lift ** more ** than 17 kilograms per cubic meter of enclosed envelope.

(th)

Void · 2022-12-01 22:34:12

(th) running water and sediments capture atmosphere to the lithosphere.

On Earth, the subduction of continents puts those materials into volcanism, and the volcanos tend to push the gasses back out.

For Venus, there may have been no life, and it is possible that there never was running water. So, no method to capture atmosphere to the crust of the planet.

The earliest speculation had Venus as a jungle planet, before probes went to Venus.

Then they came up with the idea of a runaway greenhouse effect. It is possible that Venus had a wet era. It is also possible that it never had liquid water. It is not known at this time.

In the great bombardment, impactors for Venus would have moved deeper into the sun's gravity well than for Earth, so the energy of impact would have been much more. So, the magma ocean may not have cooled down enough for liquid water to form before the water vapor escaped into space.

Lately it has been speculated that Venus had horrific lava flows that destroyed any earlier wet period. The Earth had some of that, but not as bad. When these occurred, lots of species went extinct.

https://science.time.com/2013/04/04/meg … on%20Earth.

How this might have worked for both Venus and Earth is that the crust thickened and cooled off, and so it began to sink. Then you could have fountain like lava eruptions that might last for thousands or even millions of years.

In the case of Venus, if the impactors that formed it were traveling at a higher speed, then the molten rock might be hotter. So, the eruptions might be much worse than for Earth.

This theory supposes that Venus was originally wet, but erupting lava killed the planet: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … is%20today.

It is late, so I will not search for it, but I did post an article that speculates that the main force determining atmospheres for Venus, Earth, and Mars are major impactors. In their model, the Earth was left with a "Just Right" atmosphere by the impact that formed the Moon. In their models, if the impactor was of the right size, and impacted at the correct angle, then sufficient atmosphere would be knocked off to keep it from having an atmosphere like that of Venus. In the case of Mars, an impact that formed the Northern Hemisphere, expelled too much atmosphere.

But as someone told me, "Opinions are like rectums. Everyone has one.".

We don't really know yet.

Done.

OK, here is some sort of article related to what I said: https://phys.org/news/2020-09-planet-co … he%20Earth.

This is more supportive: https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/gia … 8C11329871

I fished it up with the query: "Earth's atmosphere formed by Moon collision".

Here is the general response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Earth%27s … cc=0&ghpl=

What interests me about this alternate theory is that it depends on a sort of cosmic random number generator.

Prior theories depend on a progression, presuming that Venus was destined to be Earth like but got perverted into an Evil Sister of Earth with things like warming sun and greenhouse gasses. I guess to some degree they can all be true.

But if the impact theory is true that it could have been that Venus, Earth, and Mars, were all candidates for habitability but impact randomness (To the human mind), (Chaos is just a level of order beyond our abilities), only allowed one to persist.

And that is beginning to really make me think about extra solar planets and habitability. It may really be true that the Earth is very rare indeed.

But again, we don't know yet, do we?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-01 22:59:13)

Void · 2022-12-04 14:50:15

I came across this today and wanted to have a foster home for it, until further adaption elsewhere, maybe:

Query: Aeromine Rooftop wind. Static Silent. 50% more power than solar PV. What's not to like?, "Just have a think"

Just have a think: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ae … M%3DHDRSC3
Quote:

Aeromine Rooftop Wind. Static. Silent. 50% more power than Solar PV. What's not to like?
YouTube · 14,000+ views · 2 hr ago · by Just Have a Think

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Aeromine+ … 29d08ec7e3

I think that floating cities on Venus could use this.

In the past I have considered floating cities that might go all the way down deeper than the cloud deck, which I think might be ~10 bars pressure, and up to ~1/3 bar. So, there could be differential wind speeds. The device mentioned uses a structures blockage of the wind to "Cherry Pick" a best spot. So, I guess I like this wind device better than a standard wind turbine.

Taking advantage of Venus where it has advantage. 10 bars of wind moving, that might be good? But of course, 1 bar would be available.

And if such a structure were built, it would have the advantage of differential temperatures top down to bottom, and possibly solar energy, bot top and perhaps bottom. Venus emits infrared, so it might be that some kind of solar cell could be placed on the bottom of such a floating structure.

So, Venus may have a lot of energy to offer the human race. That would be one of it's best advantages perhaps.,

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-04 15:05:40)

Void · 2022-12-04 18:45:38

I have been thinking about the Sulfuric Acid of Venus. Previously I ruled it out as a coolant, to run though a turbine. I still have that opinion but wonder if a two-stage system might work. Rocket engines are already extremely crazy in what they do, so maybe this could be done.

For instance, if the Sulfuric Acid cooled another fluid such as water. You would need a heat exchanger that could tolerate some very nasty situations. But the thing is that Sulfuric Acid is a raw material which is likely to run off of the sides of a cloud city, and it could be collected.

If the Sulfuric Acid was in a vat, where the walls were heat exchangers, perhaps it might be workable. I guess it would be easiest to use liquid, but ice might not be totally ruled out.

So, now, if your floating city extends from 1/3 bar to 10 bar and has let's say something like glass shingles as the first line of defense.
This is the extent of the clouds more or less, and condensation may very well occur. So, the runoff could be collected.

So, then a robot that goes down to the surface and brings rocks back up. Maybe with legs and hands, and of course propellers, and lighter than air potentials as well.

So, then possibly able to bring significant amounts of regolith up to the city.

A far reach, but still maybe someday.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-04 18:51:19)

Void · 2023-02-14 11:38:34

This is of interest: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 56cde70414

Quote:

Chance encounters: Mercury probe and sun spacecraft provide new info about Venus
Story by Briley Lewis • 6h ago

Quote:

Together, the probes' observations provided experimental evidence that charged particles are, in fact, slowed down by this region, protecting Venus' atmosphere from erosion by the solar wind.
This is also an important finding for planets beyond our solar system, since astronomers now know there is a way for exoplanets without an internal magnetic field to retain their atmospheres like Venus has — and therefore possibly even harbor life.

I have wondered that for flare stars, although the solar wind is vastly stronger, can they induce a vastly stronger magnetic field that can protect the atmosphere of a planet?

In the case of Venus, where it does lose Oxygen, the reason is that the atmosphere is so dry that the electric field levitates Oxygen from the planet. So, perhaps a wet planetary atmosphere might not do that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-14 11:42:23)

Calliban · 2023-03-17 09:40:20

According to this reference, some 20% by weight of bulk lunar regolith, consists of particles smaller than 20 micrometres. A significant proportion are as small as 2.5 micrometres.
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nlsc2008/pdf/2072.pdf

Dust grains this small could remain airborne in the upper atmosphere for years, with Brownian forces being dominant over gravity. A mass driver on the moon could be used to fire packages of these fines, which would impact the Venusian upper atmosphere. About 4.5 billion tonnes of 20 micrometre fines wouod be enough to block half of the sunlight reaching the planet. As dust grains would remain airborne for many years, we would need to deliver some fraction of this each year, say 500 million tonnes. That is 16 tonnes per second. Difficult, but ultimately achievable. We would probably have established high Earth orbit industries by the time we try this. Billions of tonnes of bulk regolith would be delivered to HEO each year using mass drivers. To cool Venus, we would isolate the finest of this dust, the 2.5 micrometre and smaller particles. This makes the job easier, as we then need to shoot only a few tonnes (2m3) per second at Venus, or a single 100m diameter spherical package every three days. It won't be difficult to do this with the mass drivers we will be producing by that point. We could use mass driver tugs to put these packages on the right orbits. We would package the fines in a thin container that would melt away as soon as heat from atmospheric friction touches it.

Our ideal is to cool the planet to the point where CO2 starts to liquefy on its surface. When you cool the surface that much, enormous fissures will open. The liquid will pour in, cooling the crust even further. It would take decades to cool the planet sufficiently for human habitation. But eventually, you would have a world with dry land and CO2 oceans. As the crust cools, seismic activity could become extreme. So humans might have to wait a while before settling the place. It would be horribly dry. I'm not sure what could be done to get sufficient water to humans living there. Maybe we just drop tanks of water into the cold CO2 oceans. Ice is less dense than LCO2, so they float and can be retrieved.

Terraforming Mercury would be far more difficult, as it does not appear to have sufficient volatile resources to build an atmosphere. However, fine atmospheric dust could be used to create a sunscreen here as well. In Mercury's case, we would need to block out 90% of incoming light to produce Earth level insolation. That is tough to do. The dust would also need high albedo at Mercury's insolation levels. Fine titanium dioxide powder would do it. We could produce it from ilmenite mined from the lunar mare. But if we are satisfied to live in virtual vacuum, the extreme latitudes of Mercury would already have tolerable temperature, as the planet has very little axial tilt and does not have seasons. We could presumably grow things in greenhouses there. At intermediate lattitudes, pits could provide comfortable temperatures and light levels that are good for growing food. We would need a thin atmosphere capable of burning up micrometeors. A microbar atmosphere would be sufficient. Maybe sodium or sulphur dioxide?

Last edited by Calliban (2023-03-17 10:14:14)

Void · 2023-03-17 19:56:46

It is good that there can be many ideas of terraforming.

But I think you and I may be convergent on the value of our Moon.
As I see, it a human in a spacesuit is relatively unsuited to doing massive amounts of productive work on the Moon, but robot avatars. can make the surface accessible to humans on Earth. Of course I think that that has to be regulated. Some places less than others

But the point is that with AI and robot avatars, much could be done on the Moon. We will see if we humans can fit into such a pattern.

Your dust injection scheme to the Atmosphere of Venus, may permit injection of useful mass as well. For instance, if you could launch a device which could aerobrake into orbit, the action of aerobraking might distribute dust as well to the atmosphere, if it were a ablative process.

I am inclined to want to use Venus early, not wait for it to become a 2nd Earth. So, that would involve orbital structures, floating structures and even in time robots that mine the surface. As you may have read elsewhere I am eager to see if the atmosphere of Venus can be mined to bring to orbits.

One interesting thing your dust scheme might do is drive the cloud deck lower, so that floating cities would not be so much in the clouds.

If you cut off the UV. I believe that the acid rain, (The rains is almost all acid), would become less acid and more water and Sulphur Oxides.

My understanding is that Sulfuric Acid decomposes in the high heat at the base of the clouds. At least I recall that.

Then the UV recombines Sulfur Oxides and water vapor to make acid again.

I might be wrong about that, but this may then change the PH. Also injecting Lunar dust should change the PH.

Well, I will stop there as I do not want to pollute your train of thought.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-17 20:06:25)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-21 08:22:40

Venus on Earth: NASA's VERITAS Science Team Studies Volcanic Iceland

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Venu … d_999.html

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#426 2021-12-13 07:38:46

Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

#429 2022-03-11 09:23:36

Re: Venus

#430 2022-03-25 09:01:59

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Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

#434 2022-08-29 05:48:06

Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

#438 2022-12-01 13:26:51

Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

#440 2022-12-01 20:45:57

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#441 2022-12-01 22:34:12

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#442 2022-12-04 14:50:15

Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

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Re: Venus

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