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#401 2019-02-12 21:18:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

Let me say that I find that I apparently on occasion become more abrasive and blunt than is called for.  And so thanks for your patience.

Your calculations and projections are interesting, and have value as much as I might hope mine could.

I guess as I see it the "Stakeholders" of the future will need to decide what they want.  As it is now, apparently half of Venus surface is in a supercritical CO2 condition.  We might want to find out if any good minerals have been created by this situation.  It may be that from the supercritical half of the surface are dissolved substances, and to the not supercritical portions are deposited substances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercrit … on_dioxide

How about this?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … tal-99154/

Is there a large value to these minerals?  Can you get them to a use?  Do you want to shut down this process?  Are there other minerals of a more minor sort, but of a greater value?

So, I would think we want a look at that.

I suspect that we could get rid of the Sulfuric Acid clouds and replace it with Sulfur Dioxide and H20, if we could get a good Ozone layer on high.  And I think it may be possible automatically if we could put a global magnetic field around Venus, and if that would hold the Oxygen to the planet, that currently gets electrically levitated off of the planet, and swept away by the solar wind.

So that might allow cloud cities and this special supercritical CO2 process to co-exist.  No promises on that, just a maybe.

……

But lets consider the stakeholders options down the line.  Should they simply say, we want to sell most of the atmosphere, and we want a world with a breathable atmosphere, then I think that can be accomplished, with presumed advanced robots and automation.  I am capable of dreaming, so I will.  Let me tell you of a notion.  Perhaps you will entertain it for just a bit.

We (The stakeholders, and us now dreaming) may have an option.  Do you remember old Sci Fi about Mercury?  The settlements on the terminator.  They believed, I think, that Mercury would be tidal locked.  But lets consider intentionally tidally locking Venus.  In some ways I feel I might steal from a former member.  Anyway, you would have massive solar power capabilities on the sunward side.  You would have a somewhat temperate terminator between day and night.  And you may have a deep freeze on the night side.  You might also anticipate a very windy planet, where the wind will continually try to start spinning the planet, so you will have to compensate for that in order to keep your tidal lock.

The intense wind will be great for power, wind mills and such.  But you might have to have domed over cities, domes that could stand up to the winds.

Probably on the dark side.  Should you choose to, though you may use orbital mirrors to illuminate your cities in the darkness.

Under these conditions, you might have an atmosphere from 2000 mb to 330 mb I am guessing.  Of course you know that I prefer to off world most of the Nitrogen, so I prefer 330.  But you would need to have enough atmosphere to prevent freeze out on the dark side.  330 may be enough.

Really this is just my silliness.  I have sometimes dreamed of being on a tidal locked red dwarf world.  One where the day side is rather hot and dry, but on the night side might be a dark sea.  I imagine stars reflected in the waves of that sea, as my boat moves through the water.  I imagine lights on the shore that amplify and then dim, with the changing of the speed of the winds.  Gardens under artificial lights, on the shore, powered by the wind.  It might actually be a warm sea, who can say. 

I guess then there needs to be an ability to do something, and then you choose practical vs. aesthetic.

Aesthetic = "AS" "THE" "TIC" smile

After all I will be expected to be quite dead long before any of this could be.  So, lets grant each other the space to dream.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-02-12 21:46:29)


Done.

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#402 2019-02-13 20:34:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,155

Re: Venus

Nitrogen moderates at what conditions oxygen burns and if you have to much oxygen to nitrogen we have an explosive burning situation for venus due to temperatures for when hydrogen or methane come in contact with a ignition potential.

Floating curtains for reflecting solar energy once we start to reduce the atmosphere would also allow for cooling by reducing solar energy coming into the atmospher which remains as we draw it down.

Research the question of can we make carbon fiber filaments to make composite tanks with from the atmospher?

Carbon Fiber Filament – All You Need to Know

There is also the ability to print the materials via 3D as well.

https://makezine.com/2018/08/20/materia … -filament/

https://www.simplify3d.com/support/mate … er-filled/

Not sure what else we would need to be able to store via using what we did not need plus other elements to make the containment while mining the atmosphere.

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#403 2019-02-16 14:32:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,155

Re: Venus

Scientists use spacecraft's measurements to study solar wind heating

"In this study, we made the first direct measurement of the processes involved in turbulent heating in a naturally occurring astrophysical plasma," researcher Christopher Chen said.

, astrophysicists have uncovered the process by which energy is transferred between electromagnetic fields and plasma in space.

Most of the visible matter in the universe exists in the form of plasma, an ionized state of matter. Understanding how energy is transferred to and from ionized particles in space can help scientists to better understand a variety of cosmological phenomena.

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#404 2019-02-21 19:17:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,155

Re: Venus

Something that had bothered me was where would the heated co2 go once it escapes the planet and seeing the data of where earth went I am thinking that we would not want it to go to earth to increase the greenhouse gasses.

I hope that we will not wait 2 decades before in order to find ou the details of Mars Atmosphere as thats how long we have for Earths atmosphere stretches out to theMoon and beyond

soho-geocorona-earth-hg.jpg

ESA/NASA Solar and Heliospheric Observatory, SOHO, shows that the gaseous layer that wraps around Earth reaches up to 630 000 km away, or 50 times the diameter of our planet.

"The Moon flies through Earth's atmosphere,"

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#405 2019-03-29 12:31:30

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 239

Re: Venus

Solar_system_escape_velocity_vs_surface_temperature.svg

Ship very large amount of the carbon dioxide in Venusian atmosphere to Ganymede... killing two problem with one series of giant CO2 packages.

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#406 2019-03-29 18:38:46

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,155

Re: Venus

While we are at it we can move lots of other stuff from the other moons that circle Jupiter and Saturn for sure to places that need what we take from each..

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#407 2019-03-30 04:41:24

Terraformer
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From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,592
Website

Re: Venus

knightdepaix, this is based on the temperature of the exosphere, right? The surface temperature can be very different, particularly if the atmosphere is CO2 dominated. I think Ganymede, at least, could retain a CO2 atmosphere with comfortable temperatures on the surface.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#408 2019-03-31 04:34:24

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,262

Re: Venus

Ganymede has a very severe radiation environment which would, I expect, break down CO2 into CO and O2 both of which could escape. You would need to keep a steady feed of CO2 to this body.

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#409 2019-04-09 11:54:40

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 239

Re: Venus

My point is that instead of keeping Venusian carbon dioxide itself, take away pressure and heat to make dry ice. The energy extracted is to power the floating factory complex on Venusian cloud top and the fuel for interplanetary transportation. The carbon dioxide is shipped out from Venus to a destination, say Mars or Ganymede...

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#410 2019-04-09 17:05:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,155

Re: Venus

https://www.totaltemptech.com/how-cooli … co2-works/

https://www.danfoss.com/en-us/about-dan … oxide-co2/

https://www.ascoco2.com/us/co2-producti … -about-co2

At the altitude for mans balloons to work at is roughly 50k for a 1 atmospher pressure level the co2 will be in need of compression to over 75 psi before we can get liquid for to cool it down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus

300px-Venusatmosphere.svg.png

So if we have a radiator at a little higher altitude and we lower the pressure the radiator would then cool the co2 before we start to compress it.

I am thinking of giving it a solar shade to keep the radiator cooler as well and adding wind movement via fans to wick the heat away even further.

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#411 2019-04-11 11:13:34

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

My own feelings on this are that at first our Moon should be a place to construct machines, to transport to the orbit of Venus, and then to put dry ice into them, and some Nitrogen, and other things such as a pinch of water.

Later this activity should shift to Mercury>Venus>>>>>>Destinations.

What could be really fine is if shells could be built on the surface of the Moon and Mercury, and then launched from them to orbit.

A chemical booster  method of launch might be considered, with Lunar and Mercury insitu materials.  It would only have to get it up to a very  low orbit, and some other propulsion method(s) could be employed following that.   There are quite a few possibilities.  The "Canisters" moved to Venus orbit, you could convey atmosphere into them by some means.  We can suggest rotating skyhooks, or ion conducting tethers. Then the objective would be to collect the atmosphere in a progression Ions>Gasses>Solids.  No liquid phase for CO2 anyway. Even in the orbit of Venus, shade should be very cold.

To maintain orbit while lifting Ions and/or gasses, a solar sailing device of significant magnitude.  Solar wind? Photons? 

In reality the devices habitats could be binary in nature.  Counter-spinning to deal with gyroscopic effects.  One sunward section could deal with solar energy, and perhaps include habitat for humans, and it would provide shade for the cold partner which would condense CO2 and Nitrogen and perhaps some other gasses.

I have some ambivalence about Venus.  On the one hand if a magnetic field were to be imposed on Venus, my prediction is that the Oxygen generated abiotically by U.V. will not be swept off by the solar wind, and then some of it may form Ozone.  If so, then the hope would be that the Sulfuric Acid clouds would convert to water vapor and Sulfur Dioxide.  From the heat at the base of the clouds. The U.V. being presumed to be mostly blocked by the Ozone, then the formation of Sulfuric Acid would be inhibited.  Hopefully to the extend that the decomposing process of the heat at the base of the clouds would dominate.  While the atmosphere would still be toxic, cloud cities would be made more safe by the presumed removal of most of the Sulfuric Acid.

However the magnetic field would change the way that materials could be lifted to orbit.  Instead of using the solar wind to provide the lifting force, then somehow, navigating within the imposed magnetic field would be the way.  I am not sure how well that would work.  It implies that you would also need to generate electric force to lift an orbital object to a higher orbit within the imposed planetary magnetic field.

So, I am ambivalent.  I think lifting atmosphere from Venus is the prime desire.  Cloud cities are secondary, except if they facilitate mining the surface of Venus.

I mentioned this previously: Mercury>Venus>>>>>>Destinations.

Destinations are potentially many.

I am attracted to two solar orbits to start with.  One associated with Venus, and one associated with Mars.

The relationship between these two orbits will be ~3 to 1.  Three orbits of the solar orbit associated with Venus, to one solar orbit associated with Mars.  Both of these situations will lend themselves to solar energy.  Also, in each "Solar Orbital Ring", it will be possible to have subparts, where, an inner ring orbits just a bit faster than an outer ring.  That way, populations will have opportunities to mix slowly, as each individual world will have new neighbors on a continuing basis.  It will be possible to have spaceships which can navigate both rings without expending very much effort, as their orbits will be very similar.  Solar propulsion of Photons or Solar Wind should work fine for this.

And since there will be a general relationship of 3 orbits to 1 orbit, I think we can have cycling spaceships/habitats, where propulsion exchange can happen between the two rings, the Venus and Mars rings.  While it is dangerous at this time to use cycling spaceships, in those times, it should be possible to have a rescue capability for a transfer vessel that fails to transfer Cycling Spaceship<>Solar orbit 3 or 1.  By that time methods of propulsion should be rather well tested out as well, so such disasters should be held to a minimum level.

If you don't like the two solar orbital rings, we could alternately use "Trojan locations associated with Venus and Mars.

While the orbital resonance will not be exactly 3 to 1, Solar propulsion methods such as Photon or Solar wind should be able to compensate for any Cycling Spaceship method used.  Lagrangian points 4 & 5???

And then we get to destination Jupiter and it's trojans at 4 & 5 locations.  Decent sources of raw materials at all three sub-destinations, and also still solar energy is potentially viable.

To go to Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune, and beyond, I think we would want Fusion power, which I believe will show up some time, 50-100 years from now.

I am tired, I will mention that I think that for Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune it will be possible to mine the atmosphere(s), not to mention their Moons.  Of course Pluto has lots of Nitrogen and other materials.

It this would work out then almost no limits to human evolvement to higher levels.

It is a potential, can't guarantee no knuckle draggers showing up in the action though.

Nature apparently does not value intelligence, just dominance.

We could hope to do better.

But it is only hope.

Done

Last edited by Void (2019-04-11 11:57:22)


Done.

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#412 2019-04-11 19:33:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,155

Re: Venus

Launching from the moon to venus would require less fuel from that point as we can make the rocket suit that launch point more closely.

All the research for the surface to venus terms are coming back with "Earth-Moon Lagrange points" as the start of a mission which is not going to work...with next up is the "Hohmann transfer orbits basics of space flight" with the "Delta-v budget" coming up witha "Manned Venus flyby" with then a "NASA has a plan to let humans soar above the clouds on Venus"....

While we would like to get man to the clouds of venus there is also "A VENUS ATMOSPHERIC SAMPLE RETURN MISSION CONCEPT" long before we get to the other plans. But if the plan is "Cooling the Planet - MIT Technology Review" then we need more stuff to get to venus to make that happen.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/4073 … he-planet/

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#413 2019-04-15 10:38:30

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 239

Re: Venus

To void#411 above,

Is using the energy in Venusian atmospheric heat and energy to convert both sulfuric acid to water, oxygen and sulfur dioxide and carbon dioxide to carbon monoxide and oxygen.

Is a liquid oxygen-liquid or solid carbon monoxide or liquid oxygen-liquid carbon suboxide fuel couples useful for interplanetary transport from Venus to Mercury, the Moon, Earth and Mars?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_sulfur_cycle
This cycle can split the water in sulfuric acid into hydrogen and oxygen that can be later made into ozone for the artificial ozone layer mentioned by Void.

While sulfur can be extracted from the sulfur dioixde, what shall be done on the sulfur? If the sulfur is exported, it can be in forms of liquid hydrogen sulfide in sealed and inert plastic tanks or solid thio metal salts. These salts are carrier of sulfur and metallic elements in terms of the chemical elements within. The advantage of hydrogen sulfide is that it can displace oxygen in minerals --- many minerals contain oxygen -- and produces water. The byproduct is sulfide minerals that can be stored and extracted later for their chemical elements.

In other words, there are options not to transport sulfuric acid or sulfur dioxide from Venus. The oxygen in Venusian sulfuric acid and carbon dioxide can be saved as oxidant for human and fuel...

Last edited by knightdepaix (2019-04-15 11:10:41)

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#414 2019-04-15 12:04:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

Actually sounds pretty good chemically.  I might add that I understand that Sulfur on it's own in a Vacuum is a relatively strong material.  Not a metal but it would have some strength.

The only problem for Oxygen injected into Venus atmosphere as it is now is that Oxygen levitates off of the planet electrically at this time.  Then the solar wind tends to take it away.  The reason it levitates electrically is for Venus being so dry apparently.

That's why I thought of imposing a planetary magnetic field to keep the Solar wind away.

But I seriously am happy with your thinking.  Maybe some other notions will show up as well.

Done.


Done.

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#415 2019-04-26 13:32:17

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 239

Re: Venus

Void wrote:

But I seriously am happy with your thinking.  Maybe some other notions will show up as well. Done.

Re void#414,
A bit off topic, sometimes for whatever reasons, does your tone appear that you are giving superficial attention to my posts.
Anyhow, in regards to Venus,

Terraformer wrote:

The first thing to do when terraforming Venus is to remove the Sulphur. Once that's gone we can wak around on the surface of the floating colonies with only breathing masks on.

As the sulfur exists in sulfuric acid, H2SO4, can the acid be reduced using local Venusian energy to hydrogen sulfide and oxygen?
On Venus,
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … via%3Dihub
Is sulfur polymer possible in the cloudtop factory complex?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium%E2 … ur_battery
The operating temperatures of 300 to 350 °C and the highly corrosive nature of the sodium polysulfides, primarily make them suitable for stationary energy storage applications. The cell becomes more economical with increasing size.
So is sodium sulfur battery the energy storage option for the cloudtop factory complex?

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#416 2019-04-26 17:10:39

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,155

Re: Venus

One would want to nuetralize the sulfuric acid, H2SO4 in order to get at the water, hydrogen, the oxygen and the sulfur as for the basic building blocks to make oter things inthe cloud factory.

https://www.reference.com/science/equat … beb4fa31c9

https://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-i-neutr … c-acid.htm

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#417 2019-04-27 17:58:40

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

With respect to the others posting...

knightdepaix  I have respect, I am just not a chemist.  Sometimes I have to step back, and over time something will come to me.  Not yet though.

Done.


Done.

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#418 2020-11-08 12:39:13

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

------
Recently I have been thinking of Venus. 
Let me first say that if there is life on Venus, then I would be against modifying the planet.  Fortunately that should be a relatively easy thing to determine, if NASA sends missions to Venus.
Also, I think that the Moon, Mars, and ateroids are a more important priority.
I think that it is possible that imposing a magnetic field(s) around Venus, to protect it from the solar wind "Might" lead to some important alterations of the planets environment.  As well, I might hope that such magnetic fields might also provide other benefits.
I am not wild about cloud cities, as so far presented.  But I have an idea about that sort of thing, and will get to it later.  For now I am interested in orbital affairs around Venus.  If floating devices in the atmosphere could help, then I would be interested in those.
It is said that Venus looses Oxygen, Hydrogen, and Helium to the solar wind.  In the case of Venus, part of the reason may be that Oxygen generated is levitated into space by the electrical field of the planet, and so then Venus has a tail trailing it like a comet, partly composed of Oxygen.
My understanding of the cloud environment of Venus, is that the Sulfuric Acid dominates over the much smaller quantity of water vapor and drops.   I have read that water combines with Sulphur dioxide under the influence of Ultra Violet light.   However down low at the bottom of the cloud deck, heat decomposes the Sulfuric Acid into water and Sulfur Dioxide.
Articles from about 2011 indicate that Venus does have an Ozone layer, but apparently not a good enough one.  Oxygen is split from CO2 by U.V., and does make some Ozone.  However it appears that Oxygen also levitates into space by way of the electrical field of Venus, and then the Solar wind.  Some articles have indicated that that field is so strong because Venus is so dry.  Maybe that is true, but the important point is that Oxygen is levatated to the top of the atmosphere, and then into the solar wind.
The method to terraform Venus would therefore begin by exploiting the levitation of Oxygen, but interupting the loss to space with magnetic fields in orbit of Venus.
While I don't discount the use of such a field in the L1 location, I have more in mind something like what Spacenut has suggested for Mars.
My notion is that they sould be able to repulse and attract each other to stay in formation.  They should be able to accumulate additional velocity or shed orbital velocity by working with or against the flow of the solar wind.   If this net of magnetic shielding could stop the Oxygen loss, then a greater Ozone layer "May" accumulate.   This "Might" reduce the reformation of Sulfuric Acid from a decreased flux of UV to the clouds.   And then it seems to me that it could become more likely that water will become more a part of the clouds, and Sulfuric Acid, I hope would become less dominant.   Probably this can only go to a certain level.   But if the environment were less corrosive, then it would be more friendly to "Cloud" cities.
It is uncertain how pure a layer of Oxygen could float on the top of the atmosphere of Venus, and it's ultimate density.  However it should be self limiting, if a strong Ozone layer develops.   So, I don't think it would become a 1 bar pressure at a altitude where you might want to have floated cities.   But that would have to be discovered.  Obviously a 1 bar layer would present a fire hazzard, and you could not float cities in it except with Hydrogen.   But it is likely that if it could be caused to come into existance, it would be possible to drain some of it off to space by simply letting the solar wind carry some of it away from time to time.
Back to the "Net" of orbital magnetic fields, I think it might be possible to extract atmosphere to them from the plasma at the top of the atmosphere of Venus.  It is possible that magnetic reconnection could be used to capture molecules from the atmosphere into these magnetic "Bubbles".   Otherwise, I think that space elevator like tethers could be used, possibly rotavators, to get deeper into the atmosphere of Venus.
Keep in mind that when I say "Space Elevators", I am not talking about connecting the surface of Venus to geosynch.   I am thinking not very long tethers that brush the upper atmosphere.  As they might gather atmosphere to a collection device, the momentum needs to be made up by using the net of magnetic bubbles to exploit the momentum of the solar wind.   These fields should be possible to modulate in size, so, in the part of the orbit where they travel away from the sun, they could be increased in size, and in the part where they travel towards the sun, they could shrink in size.   This would at least work for the fields that have that sort of orbit.  The others could perhaps repulse and attract against the "Motivator" fields, to hold their orbits.   But then again with very large fields, perhaps it would only be needed to have a chain of these around the equator of Venus.  Perhaps much smaller magnetic fields would be used to skim the atmosphere of Venus, in relatively low orbits.
I do understand that until and if the surface of Venus could be mined, materials will be a problem.   However, with rotavators, Sulfur, Nitrogen, Oxygen and Hydrogen, (From Sulfuric Acid), might be retrieved, along with Carbon.
To build out of Sulfur in orbit could be a problem as I think it melts at about 96 C?
However Carbon appears to melt at 3550 C.   Making sunshades of Carbon products therefore seems possible, to shield anything made with Sulfur.   Sulfur has some promise for building things in a vacuum.
Still, I guess other materials would have to at least innitially come from other locations than Venus.
It might be that some of the products to be manufactured from the atmophere of Venus, would have enough value to allow trade with a solar system economy.
I am inclined to think of orbital habitats being manufactured elsewhere, and then being "Filled" a suitable atmosphere from the substances extracted from Venus.  In other words, make "Land" in orbit around Venus, and then sell the real estate to buyers.
Obviously solar power in orbit around Venus should be attractive.   Getting the empty "Land" to Venus of course would be a significant task.   I am tempted to think of using a mass driver that expells Oxygen if they are made from Lunar or Asteroid materials.   In the inner solar system, these "Oxygen Ice Cubes" should quickly vaporize when exposed to sunlight and the vacuum of space.
If they were made on Mercury, then of course the solar wind or sunlight might be used to propell them to Venus.
-----
Just for giggles I would think to mention a "Coal Powered Rocket".   Certainly not to get off the ground.   But if you can heat a hybrid rocket containing Carbon to a high temperature, then squirt Oxygen into it, it might work to a degree.  However, you would need some high temperature metals or ceramics to handle that.   Solar concentrating mirrors would be a possible way, I think.
-----
Floating Cities in the atmosphere:
I guess I would like to consider just one such city, so that you would not have them banging into each other.   But I am not "Yet" the emperor of all things, so, I guess that is only a suggestion.
I am thinking very, very big.  I am thinking of a cylinder of spheres perhaps.  One that would reach down to the base of the clouds and below.  I do not think of it reaching above the clouds.
Flotation on Veus would be best accomplished at 10 bar, and less so at 1 bar.  Human pressure limits would be .33 bar or a bit less.   Floation in thin atmosphere would be troublsome.  So much so that I don't think that getting above the cloud deck is a reasonable option.
I have suggested a Cylinder of spheres, so that each sphere would have differing gasses in them to promote floatation.  It would be much easier to float heavy gear at 10 bar, but of course it would be hot, and not a very good environment for humans most of the time.  They would need very good protection.  However, we are entering the age of robots, so that could be workable.  The spheres might tollerate some differential pressure, within reasonable limits.   Of course some structures at the core of the "Cylinder of Spheres", could be cooled and have a heavy structure to allow for a 1 bar atmosphere inside of them.
Dealing with the Acid of course will be a problem.   One thing I have in mind is to surround the "Cylinder" with curtains of some material that can stand up to acid, does not react.  Maybe glass mesh.  The hope would be that droplets would condense on it, and run down it in the gravitational field.  The idea would be to keep liquids off of the interior structures.
It might prove possible to use the liquids that could be collected to generate electricity.  However of course such methods would have to tollerate the Acid.   At the base of the device it might be possible to collect a mixture that had greater water content, to extract the water.
It may not be out of the question to have evaporative cooling.  However if you are collecting liquid acid, then that seems a stretch.   But you might boil the liquids with the heat output of a refrigeration device to keep some spheres cool.
If the structure were to dip far enough down, it might be possible to push "Dry" hot air through the structure to keep acid vapors out.  It would more or less be "Dry hot air".  I have puzzled at how much work would be needed to cause a siphon sort of flow, and if you would want to. 
Others have suggested power systems for "Cloud Cities".  Nuclear fission is the most promising I guess, but then you have to import your fuel, until you can access the surface of Venus.
The reason I want the megastructure is that then you can use wind power.   The use the super rotation of the upper atmosphere against the drag of the lower atmosphere, and there will also be winds of various types all along the structure. 
Any farming would need to be in reasonable conditions, inside of some of the spheres,  Artificial lighting, also chemical methods might also work.  In the case of chemical methods, you might operate them at relatively high temperatures.
And then there could be a water cycle.  Piping could allow steam flows from "Boilers" below, up through the structure.  And spheres could be the "Boilers".    Spheres above near the top of the structure could serve as condensers, and then you could have Hydro-Electric flows down.
Say what you might want, but if this thing could ever be built, it would have energy.
-----
But then there is the nature of humankind.   Just now we are having trouble with people demanding tribute, or will demand tribute to with hold violence and destruction of cities.
I don't like that.   But protection rackets are not a new thing among the criminal element.
And war, but we already can murder the whole human race if it turns out someone wants to.
So, a rediculously large mega structure which could be of great service to the human race, but which would be volnerable to idiots.
-----
Other reasons I like this device:
I had thought to build the structure to connect to Maxwell Montees, which would have a pressure about 1/2 that of the surface and reduced temperatures, but that is likely a volcano, and then there could be earthquakes.  However you could deliver power down to the surface, and extract regolith.   But you would be dealing with a horrifying environment.  you might get the kind of Montees you don't like.  Still....
Ships like Starship, specially built, would not need rocket engines to land.   They would simply skydive down until they floated.   Obviously they would have to deal with the environment.
Another way to access the regolith of Venus without connecting to Maxwell Montees
You could have massive ships you filled with water or some other liquid for ballast and cooling, and power.   It would likely be a glider type thing that would drop from the cloud bottoms, powered with steam, and so cooled.   It would gather up regolith, to the degree to keep it down as the liquids evaporated.   Then with the propper ballasting, as the liquids evaporated off, it would float back up with it's load.
Anyway, something to stave off being bored.
Done.


Done.

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#419 2021-10-21 09:55:59

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

I came across this a few days ago.  It seems to indicate that the conditions of Venus, may be better than what has been supposed.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=An … FORM%3DHDR

This seems to fit in with a pattern where both the Moon and Mars, have been upgraded over time.  It seems at some point some entities did want to tell the public that all that was out there was impossible to manage by humans.

-The Moon was bone dry.
-All the needed substances were lost from Mars.
-Venus is a pressure cooker of acid.

But, whatever their motivation was for possibly telling lies, many of them are under the sod now and soon we all will pass along and away.

For members on this board, I will state that I think that Venus comes after Mars.  However, getting more information about Venus, has become much more important.

Although this section is about terraforming, I actually think that any such activity should be limited to beneficial results. 

I think that there should be one city in the clouds, but that that city could go all the way down to the 10 bar level in the atmosphere, possibly allowing upper portions of the city to project above their normal floatation levels, so as to be
exposed to more cold and perhaps more light.

Such a city could manufacture cryogenic fluids, which might protect machines, gliders, with propeller or jet-like propulsions.

Those could then land on the ground, and pick up regolith collected by robots.

The Robots on the ground might be powered by wind, or microwaves, or perhaps nuclear.

I don't think water would be a problem, as H2SO4 breaks down to water and Sulphur oxides at about the 10 bar level.

As for energy, for the city, differential winds might work, thermal differences....

The bottom of the city would be very hot, perhaps ~ 200 degF???  And the top be cold.  So there would be many ways to have energy production systems in the city from thermal variances.  The Soviets considered nuclear, as they apparently were the first that I know of that considered floating cities.

So, I really do think after all that Venus could be a good place for human and machine activities.  However, I am inclined to think to prefer orbital cities for Venus as well.  So, robotic surface, and Human/Robotic floating city and orbital cities.

Not a bad deal, I think that eventually if our technology keeps advancing this could work.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-21 10:18:31)


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#420 2021-10-21 19:37:16

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,342

Re: Venus

Void,

Apart from remaining afloat indefinitely, I think Venus presents far fewer technological challenges to overcome than living on the moon or Mars.

You get:

1. Earth-like gravity
2. Protection from CME / SPE / GCR radiation
3. An atmosphere at the same pressure and temperature as Earth sea level, at the correct altitude above the surface of the planet
4. The building block materials for sustaining floating cities in the clouds, namely fluoropolymers, O2 / N2 / H2O / CO2
5. Incredibly abundant wind, solar, and thermal energy

After we develop the interplanetary space ships to travel there, we already have the technology to live there.  We don't need to develop technologies that presently don't exist, in order to live there.  We also don't need massive nuclear reactors to live there, because we're so close to the Sun and have such strong winds that solar panels are more effective than they are in the hottest deserts here on Earth, at high noon.  Wind turbines are effectively operating in a jet-stream-like environment, so they can be tiny and still generate massive amounts of power.  There's plenty of solar energy on the moon, but not for 28-day periods of time, there's no wind, no atmosphere, no radiation protection, and very little gravity.  Mars exists in a state of perpetual solar and wind energy poverty.

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#421 2021-10-21 21:18:21

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

Well KBD512, you can be quite a surprise.

I think that you have merit in your claims about Venus.

However, I do not want to rock the boat.  We want to get at least one thing right, and alright done.

Moon, Mars, Venus, Mercury?  Asteroid belt?  NEO's?

Well lets get one anyway.  Mars could do, but Venus is really looking like something to eyeball some more.

As a Serbian ethnic used to say to me "Do something, even if its wrong".  But really lets get it right if possible.

I think I have an open mind on this.

Thanks for your post.

Truth is if we get Starship, Mini-Starship, Nuclear boosters, and this that and the other thing too, smile  We get the Sun the Moon, and pretty much all the inner planets and moons, and the Asteroids.

That's nice.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-21 21:20:09)


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#422 2021-11-16 13:26:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

I found this to be of interest.

https://scitechdaily.com/state-of-the-a … ad-oceans/
Quote:

State-of-the-Art Climate Model Shows That Venus Could Never Have Had Oceans

A touchy matter.  Seems to me that the theory of "Run Away Greenhouse" started off with scientists decades ago supposing that Venus did have oceans, and then the warming of the sun tipped it over the edge due to CO2.

Of course now we have climate change, which in hysteria, now also triggers people to think that strange weather always indicates something out of order.

I am not trying to make a case against concern, but I do note that since Biden got in, the Hysteria, is going to the point of panic.

Panic is not a good mode for problem solving.

But, here we are.

I do make note that they suggest a "Cloud Diode" as why Venus never had substantial rain that reached the ground.

A "Cloud Diode" might be useful to warm up Mars.



Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-11-16 13:27:39)


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#423 2021-11-16 17:56:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 27,155

Re: Venus

Well an acid rain on mars would liberate lots of oxygen into its atmosphere.

For Venus there is a lot of water in the atmosphere for it to have never been on its surface...

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#424 2021-11-17 12:12:53

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,343

Re: Venus

The best we can tell is that "We don't know" we need more information.

But the notion of a "Greenhouse Effect", is not certain for the history of Venus.

We are dealing with religious nutters who are posing as scientific, and have shifted their word method to "Climate Change". 

Yes, climate and weather changes all the time, and Yes humans may well have affected that process.

And yes it is prudent to find effective treatments the both stabilize the Earth, and hopefully can benefit humans.

But the desire of our enemies to De-Industrialize the west is simply a ploy to achieve rape.

We know that those enemies external to our nations, and "Judas Goats" who are internal to our nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_goat

You can anticipate for example that much flack about fracking was of that sort.  The external powers who sell oil, and the "Judas Goats", who either get pay outs from foreign powers, or who make money off of imported oil.

So, we need to be sure that we know our goats.

Done.


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#425 2021-12-11 08:59:03

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,796

Re: Venus

Crashed / Impactor?
NASA’s Unintentional Venus Lander
https://www.drewexmachina.com/2016/06/1 … us-lander/

"Newer, nimbler, faster:" Venus probe will search for signs of life in clouds of sulfuric acid
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Newe … d_999.html

Still not sure if Terraforming Venus would ever be possible but there are some amazing discussions and ideas in this thread

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-12-12 07:33:58)

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