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#26 2008-04-06 18:25:40

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: How do you build a physical economy?

Sorry - Gregori, I'm not going to trust you on this one.

Private companies are catching up with the states very quickly. Philanthropists can probably devote more finance to a single project like Mars than NASA can.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#27 2008-04-06 18:46:49

Gregori
Member
From: Baile Atha Cliath, Eireann
Registered: 2008-01-13
Posts: 297

Re: How do you build a physical economy?

Sorry - Gregori, I'm not going to trust you on this one.

Private companies are catching up with the states very quickly. Philanthropists can probably devote more finance to a single project like Mars than NASA can.

There are no rich "philanthropists" that have dedicated more than NASA finance to single project like Mars as of yet.. The investments have pretty much fallen much shorter and have produced inferior results...

History is really not on your side in this argument.

Besides that, why should the public wait for handouts from "philanthropists" to explore space when they can have a highly organized part of the state, which has a long term plan to provide that service.

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#28 2008-04-07 06:18:52

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: How do you build a physical economy?

History is plenty on my side. Most of the Europe exploration and settlement of the world was undertaken by companies, often backed initially by philanthropists or religious organisations  e.g. East India Company, Hudson Bay company, Pilgrim Fathers  etc  The Portugese explorations were privately financed by Prince Henry the Navigator, not the state as such. State monopoly of exploration is a very recent and probably abnormal state of affairs.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#29 2008-04-07 21:53:44

Commodore
Member
From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: How do you build a physical economy?

Have we learned nothing from our mercantilist past.

Larry, how is having a national bank that funds infrastructure projects be granting credit fundamentally different from the current system. Now we borrow from private and international sources to print money, resulting in debt and a valueless currency. With a national bank won't we just be printing increasingly valueless currency?

The heart of the problem is the fact that no party in existence, at no level of government, can get elected on a platform of living within its means. No level of economic idiocy is of the table for the people who want power, and are willing to bribe people with stuff they don't have to get it.

Democracy ceases to function when you can vote yourself the right to other peoples stuff.


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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#30 2008-04-09 22:54:07

Martian Republic
Member
From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: How do you build a physical economy?

Have we learned nothing from our mercantilist past.

Larry, how is having a national bank that funds infrastructure projects be granting credit fundamentally different from the current system. Now we borrow from private and international sources to print money, resulting in debt and a valueless currency. With a national bank won't we just be printing increasingly valueless currency?

There are several fundamental differences between a private bank that owned by individuals in a mercantilist system of capitalism for the benefit of the few to the detriment of the many. Then there the Government Bank owned and operated by the government based on the General Welfare of the nation and possibly for the world population at large Under the US Constitution. This was the primary reason that the US revolution was fought over was to decide who controls this money supply. I know this isn't taught in schools and your collage professor will challenge this assertion of mine, but this we the primary reason for the American Revolution. Now there were many other reason for that American revolution, but this was one of the key reasons for that revolution.

I think it will be easier to explain it to you by giving you a brief outline how each system is setup and how it functions. We will start with the Federal Reserve or the World Bank or the Bank of England, it doesn't matter, there all private banks own by individuals to there own benefit and the expense of the rest of up. These banks are basically a giant rip off, but here how it set up:

Federal Reserve System It Charter and how it operates:

1. 1913 Charter that violates the US Constitution to give a private bank the power to act like a bank of last resort to create credit.
2. The Federal Reserve is a Private Bank that a Corporation with stock that are owned by other membered banks like Bank America, Chase Bank and European Banks that aren't associated with the US Government. So the Federal Reserve isn't necessarily loyal to the United States or the American people, but to primarily foreign banks, which may and usually don't have our best interest in mined.
3. When the Federal Reserve System Generates Credit, like they did for Bear Sterns when they went bankrupt and they were bailed out by Chase with about 50 billion dollars for the Federal Reserve System in the hands of Chase Bank buy out. That fifty billion Federal Reserve Note, became a debt note that the American People are going to have to pay back with there taxes and pay interest on that Federal Reserve Note too. We had an exchange of worthless paper at Bear Sterns for Federal Reserve Note that the American people are now on line to pay back. Chase got Bear Sterns for 10 cent on the dollars from what they were supposed to have been worth or 500 hundred billion or more. But, that not the end of the problem, Chase has 77 trillions of worthless derivatives also which is many times greater than Bear Sterns worthless paper problem. To put this in perspective as to how bad this is. The US Gross Product for one year is only 7 trillion dollars a year. Or that worthless paper at Chase is seven times bigger than the US Gross National Product. Or put it another way, Chase has 77 trillions of dollars with no collateral behind it to support it or give it any reason to exist.
4. To get the American people to pay a private bank called the Federal Reserve, the IRS was created to enforce the will of the Federal Reserve on the American People. The IRS is a government agency that acts as the enforcer for a private bank.
5. Those membered banks also have there own way of creating credit or making it appear that they have more money than they really have by fractionalizing or borrowing against there own bank accounts. It works like this, if bank has a billion dollars and they barrow against it ten times, it looks like they have 10 billion dollars instead of just one billion dollars. They have to keep a fraction of that amount in that account all the time, but they can loan the rest of it out or in this illustration loan it to themselves into another account. Then they can use there supposed ten billion dollars worth of assets they hang more worthless paper and some of that being those derivatives. As long as they can keep that worthless paper increasing in value, then everything appears to look OK, but once they can't keep increasing that amount, then the game over. It like a Chain letter scheme, there only so many people out there, before you run out of people that can join in, before the Chain letter scheme falls apart. That what you are seeing right now, there Chain letter scheme is in the process of falling apart.  Worldwide there is over 500 trillion dollars of worthless paper called derivatives that in the process of evaporation and it will take down the entire financial system when it evaporates too.
6. Wealth is pegged to paper or gold or silver, etc. Make your choice, but it not pegged to the physical economy as such. It has some arbitrary value in the minds of those people in power that has that bank which they are using to extract wealth from everybody else. That how there scam works. There victim has to be ignorant or fearful enough to be forced to go along with there scam. But, money itself or as an idea of it being wealth is completely non existent and is only in the minds of the people using it.

Before we go to the First & Second National Bank System of the United States, I would like to go over what money should be and what it should not be. Also, the founding fathers of the United States understood this banking system that I just went over. They called it British Tyranny. It the British Empire which was based on Corporatism or corporation controlling the government. The British Empire was a nation controlled by private interest of the elite and the suppression of the masses into poverty and slavery. Depopulation of the mass by the elite is also one of there tactics so they can maintain there control over the people. Too many people, then you have to technological develop and educate those masses, then you can't maintain your control over them. Fascism is another form of Corporatism and was also a corporation taking over the government in both Italy and Germany and even most of the world during World War II. The United States was spared going Fascist during World War II, because of FDR and his policies.

Money and Credit only real uses are:

1. Money should only be used for a medium of exchange and for nothing else.
2. If credit can be generated, then it can also evaporate too and it will eventually do that too. It start out as Zero value before it generated and it will return to Zero value when it evaporates.
3. It is Physical assets that are wealth and not money itself. Money and credit are soft asset that should be use to promote business activities in the physical economy and not the physical economy being held hostage to those soft assets called money and credit.
4. Credit needs to be restrictive, but it need to be generated to keep the economic system functioning and to expand the physical economy or that credit has no right to be generated or to exist.
5. Reasons to generate credit, to build infrastructure and to develop new technologies that advance the productive capabilities of the work force and generate new kinds of business and new products for the market place.

The First & Second National Bank and use of credit:

1. It was Government own vs privately owned.
2. Instead of having a government borrowing money from a private bank that generating credit and paying interest on that credit that they generated out of thin air, the US Government would be generating that credit and making the rules for the use of that credit.
3. Alexander Hamilton created self extinguishing debt for the productive sector of the United States in the private sector. He would generate a ten or twenty year note to finance some major project and then have no roll over on it or it would go to zero value. For most of the first fifty years of the United States, that kind of credit was being used to finance the build up of the United States as a nation. That where a fair portion of the money or credit came from for transforming the United States into the world power we are today.
4. The United State could also create credit of a certain value and borrow against it instead of borrowing from a private bank and paying them interest too.
5. People in the productive sector of the economy like farmers, miner and factories owners could borrow money from the US Government at 2% or 3% simple interest. The primary reason for the loan, was to generate business in the productive private sector of the economy. Usually that loan was run through the local private bank and the 2% or 3% was paid to that bank for administration purposes.
6. If we had some enterprising new inventor with a new invention, he could also appeal to the US Government for a loan to go into business and buy the equipment that he needs to go into business. Fulton Steam boat comes to mind as one of the things that was financed and Colt rifles also.

The heart of the problem is the fact that no party in existence, at no level of government, can get elected on a platform of living within its means. No level of economic idiocy is of the table for the people who want power, and are willing to bribe people with stuff they don't have to get it.

Democracy ceases to function when you can vote yourself the right to other peoples stuff.

Then we need to get people who both understand what the US Constitution stands for and are dedicated to promote those interest or they don't have any business being either President of the United States or in Congress.

Larry,

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