Political Potpourri IV - Continued from previous

clark · 2005-05-23 05:21:43

tribalist says, "ug". :laugh:

It was never about WMDs, at least not exclusively or even primarily.

Well, then at least both sides of the divide can now agree that invoking the UN resolution as the principle legitimizing the intial invasion was nothing but a farce.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 05:52:40

Well, then at least both sides of the divide can now agree that invoking the UN resolution as the principle legitimizing the intial invasion was nothing but a farce.

Ah, but there's more to it. The UN resolutions did legitimize it in some sense, as did the cease-fire agreement between the US and Iraq after '91, the terms of which Iraq had violated on several occasions. Legally it was totally legit, as far as international law has any relevance beyond the best army to paraphrase Patton. The UN resolutions are one of the reasons Iraq was attractive as an opening target in the greater strategy to remake the MidEast.

Which has no relevance whatsoever on whether the alleged weapons were actually there or whether anyone believed they were. They once existed and can't be accounted for, the UN knew it and passed numerous resolutions pertaining to them, actually finding them was largely irrelevant beyond a media-spin bonus.

There's alot of nuance and subtlety to this, I'm surprised those "sophisticated" Leftists don't appreciate that. "Bush lied" is so with us or against us. :;):

clark · 2005-05-23 06:27:44

There's alot of nuance and subtlety to this,

"Nuance and Subtlety" are the first two words spoken by Laywers and Real-estate's children. :laugh:

But then, I suppose it hinges on what the meaning of is is.

I'ld rather a sex crazed lying President than this. Just a personal prefrence. [shrug]

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 06:51:43

I'ld rather a sex crazed lying President than this. Just a personal prefrence. [shrug]

I seem to recall that "sex crazed lying President" embarking on a few unilateral military adventures with dubious cause. Some of which I agreed with, at least in principle BTW.

Ah well, a few pointless little wars are better than one big significant one. From a certain point of view.

Only the names have changed. . .

Martian Republic · 2005-05-23 07:19:16

Things are happening in the Middle East which I think may ultimately produce a good result and which will have stemmed, in large part, from the liberation of Iraq.
And regardless of not finding the WMD, the liberation of Iraq was an intrinsically good thing in itself. Give it time and I believe history will vindicate that.

Your statement is complete bull crap!

number one, we didn't liberate Iraq. We conquered it and setup a military dictatorship with fourteen military bases to exercise our control Iraq and a setup puppet government under our control, which we can remove at any time if it suits us or if they don't do what we want. So Iraq it not a free country, but, they are an occupied country under military domination by the United States.

Since the invasion of Iraq, we have murdered over 100,000 Iraq's through bombing, starvation and other ways or forms of killing.

We have robed and pillaged the museums and other artifacts and of the Iraqi oil, which we privatized and gave to Bechtel and Haliburtan in a no bidder contracts so they could control the oil. We are basically stealing the Iraqi oil or at least trying to steal the Iraqi oil like an armed bandit in a muti-billion robbery.

Yes, WMD issue is important, because that was our justification for committing Genocide against another nation on earth. The fact the WMD was an out and out lie, give you the picture of the Bush Administration and true nature of what America has become under his leadership and it not a pretty picture either. The United States is becoming an Empire with it own genocidal policies that it committed against other nation and is becoming a real depotist under George Bush's rule or to be more accurate, Dick Cheney rule.

History will not find what America did in the middle east to be intrinsically good either. It would be like claiming that the concentration were liberation camps or were intrinsically good and that history will vindicate that. Or it would be like saying that Hitler liberation of French, Poland, Western Russia during World War II was intrinsically a good thing and history will vindicate that claim too.

Tyranny is tyranny whether it comes from Nazi Germany, Napoleon, Stalin of from George Bush. So don't make such stupid or silly statements like that. Because, history will not be vindicating what United State did in Iraq to be intrinsically good. Tyranny is tyranny and this is American tyranny that is being projected into Iraq from America and it will never be any thing other than that.

I don’t like what I’m saying either, but I know evil when I see it and I will call it evil and I will not make excuses for it, just because it came from America. America needs to stop trying to become an Empire and practicing war against the rest of the world and trying to setup worldwide domination over every body and go back to being a Republic under Constitutional laws. It in Americas best interest and it in the interest of the rest of the world for America to do that.

Larry,

clark · 2005-05-23 07:27:45

Well, Hitler had those V-2 rockets built. That didn't turn out so bad... in the long run.

Well, of course it did lead to indiscriminate civilian bombing and inter-continental nuclear tipped missles with the threat of world armageddon hanging over us all for the last 40 some years.

But hey, space rockets. Good thing! :laugh:

Palomar · 2005-05-23 07:36:21

You yourself, Cindy, despair of the situation at times, which is very understandable, even though your grasp of the equivocal nature of left-right politics is usually clearer than many of the tribalists here at New Mars.

*I sincerely thank you. That is indeed high praise (considering my "political" self-confidence is not very high).

Things are happening in the Middle East which I think may ultimately produce a good result and which will have stemmed, in large part, from the liberation of Iraq.
And regardless of not finding the WMD, the liberation of Iraq was an intrinsically good thing in itself. Give it time and I believe history will vindicate that.

I sincerely hope so. Really...I don't like discussing politics and never have. But it's unforgiveably antisocial and irresponsible to ignore matters, IMO. So I push myself to interact in this regard.

--Cindy

BWhite · 2005-05-23 07:45:07

Well, Hitler had those V-2 rockets built. That didn't turn out so bad... in the long run.
Well, of course it did lead to indiscriminate civilian bombing and inter-continental nuclear tipped missles with the threat of world armageddon hanging over us all for the last 40 some years.
But hey, space rockets. Good thing! :laugh:

Thursday morning, Burt Rutan was introduced by the last surviving member of von Braun's V-2 rocket team (Dannenberg IIRC) who spent the 2nd half of his life working at Huntsville Alabama.

Anyway, there were a few sideways glances when he talked about proud memories of the first successful A-4 test, that missile we cal the V-2.

= = =

Apparently the Huntsville rocket program was renowned for its "4 - 9" reliability.

Each morning von Braun would line up his rocket team and ask the top four assistants;

"Do you see any difficulties to prevent today's launch?"

If he got four "Neins" they launched.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-23 13:50:48

Anyway, there were a few sideways glances when he talked about proud memories of the first successful A-4 test, that missile we cal the V-2.

I can imagine. Nothing like ignoring the true heritage of a technology one champions to salve the conscience of the squeamish and guilt-ridden for things they didn't do.

Sorry I missed it.

Perhaps the space advocacy community needs to take a collective moment of silence and thank the Nazi leadership for being bungling ignorant fools when it comes to missile systems, thereby allowing Von Braun to hoodwink them into building spaceships instead of the solid-fueled rockets that better informed leaders might have been supporting.

reddragon · 2005-05-23 16:10:41

Perhaps the space advocacy community needs to take a collective moment of silence and thank the Nazi leadership for being bungling ignorant fools when it comes to missile systems, thereby allowing Von Braun to hoodwink them into building spaceships instead of the solid-fueled rockets that better informed leaders might have been supporting.

True. There's probably alot of things we should thank the Nazi leadership for being bungling ignorant fools in. It's not a very pleasant thought, but there are alot of things that they could have done differently that might well have led to them winning the war.

And regardless of not finding the WMD, the liberation of Iraq was an intrinsically good thing in itself. Give it time and I believe history will vindicate that.

Everyone believes that they are right and history will vindicate them. It's probably good to bear in mind that most are found to have made some mistakes and many are found to be wholly wrong. Personally, I opposed going to war and still believe that it was the wrong idea. The future of Iraq is still very much up in the air, but I think the future will show some good and some bad results from the invasion. Outcomes ranging from widespread Arab democracy as Bush claims will be the result to widespread Arab jihad against America as many of his opponents fear. More likely the future will be alot like the present, some democratic reform in Arab countries and some Arab jihad against America. The only certain result of the war, however, is carnage.

Grypd · 2005-05-23 16:59:35

And regardless of not finding the WMD, the liberation of Iraq was an intrinsically good thing in itself. Give it time and I believe history will vindicate that.
Everyone believes that they are right and history will vindicate them. It's probably good to bear in mind that most are found to have made some mistakes and many are found to be wholly wrong. Personally, I opposed going to war and still believe that it was the wrong idea. The future of Iraq is still very much up in the air, but I think the future will show some good and some bad results from the invasion. Outcomes ranging from widespread Arab democracy as Bush claims will be the result to widespread Arab jihad against America as many of his opponents fear. More likely the future will be alot like the present, some democratic reform in Arab countries and some Arab jihad against America. The only certain result of the war, however, is carnage.

I wonder if we truly understand that Iraq and the states that surround it come from a completely different culture that actually rejects from its core what we call western values. Even in the west there are major differences to what core values are look at the difference between France and the UK are. And in these states there is a similarity in there history but for states in the middle East they come from a history and culture that has been in conflict with the west for over a 1000 years.

Look at the term "crusade". In the west it means for us a great cause to drive out something evil or to do some great good. Mention it to an arab etc and you find out they believe it to mean a campaign of terror and rape and murder of women and children for greed and land. In Jihad we in the west see a term for terrorism but to a person from the middle east it means a holy Defensive fight for freedom of religion.

Still I can tell you one thing we will learn from the whole experience. That regime change in different cultures will give us results that we could not expect. And that simply destroying the enemy and winning the war does not really mean we can win the peace.

Gennaro · 2005-05-23 18:16:43

Cobra long ago wrote:

But as I've said on several occasions previously, failure to find weapons doesn't prove a deliberate lie and furthermore those weapons were never my primary reason for supporting the action. To me it broke down essentially like this, if we're going to be fighting Muslim fundamentalists with visions of a Caliphate (admittedly an assumption, though not without basis) then there will be a wide front, perhaps the bulk of the region. We'll need to A: establish a beachhead and B:demonstrate willingness to act. Iraq made a good choice for that all around. If it turns into a thriving democratic nation, so much the better. Unfortunately no government can come right out and say "Hey folks, we're gearing up to throwdown with these guys and we're gonna grab this little country to operate out of and show the hammer, then see who pops their head up."

Your thinking is not unreasonable but in my opinion it's based on flawed assumptions. Reinstating the caliphate I believe is a traditional muslim goal (there is no "moderate" Islam, Islam if taken piously is extremist by its very nature, bent on world domination) but in reality it is only pursued by some fringe groups like bin Laden's who are inconsequential to world politics. And even if it came to pass it would not constitute an actual threat to the west. Their world is too poor, culturally primitive, lacking in resources and population to ever seriously challenge the west as long as we pursue a policy of containment. The only way they can defeat us is by demographic infiltration. This route they do exploit and it's significantly helped along by a western superpower raving about their turf, creating carnage and unstable conditions.

If you on the other hand want to divide and rule the muslim world (I'm not saying you really have to do this), the natural thing would have been to support secular movements. In attacking Iraq, the US did the exact opposite (and not for the first time), destroying a potential ally on the one hand and making life hard on the scatter of democratic elements in the mid-east on the other, as the bloodshed only serves to unite them behind ancient antiwestern agendas.
The stumbling block is and has always been Israel, I reckon, who does not want secular, well ordered and strong arab societies, being probably a lot more content with Jihad morons who are good for nothing but slamming swords into their foreheads. It also helps retaining the precious image of being the eternal victim, which is of no small value considering position, power and status on a worldwide scale.

I believe your support for your government's actions largelly relies on the presumption that what is done is because of some greater hidden wisdom the public is too ignorant or too bleeding-hearted to understand. I would however rather think of the whole thing as a farce of banality, pursued by a small interest group that dominate US politics, exert total control over mass-media and have small regard for the average American apart from their use as tools of the trade. They simply do their thing because they can.

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-24 05:50:32

I sense this is going to be a long one.

I believe your support for your government's actions largelly relies on the presumption that what is done is because of some greater hidden wisdom the public is too ignorant or too bleeding-hearted to understand.

Not so much "hidden wisdom" as a simple "reading between the lines" that most people aren't inclined to do. Not that I'm 100% certain about this or any other action.

If I were Emperor before the invasion there would have been a closed-doors meetings that went something like this:

"Wise and benevolent leader, why have you summoned us from our work on behalf of the people of this great nation?"

"We've just had the most succesful military campaign in Afghanistan since the time of Alexander, but we all know those who attacked us have already moved on. They're recruiting and they'll continue attacking us. Options as you see them."

"We could rebuild Afghanistan into a shining beacon of hope and democracy for the region, thus turning the terrorists into warm fuzzy pals of America" a well-meaning government minion says. The good and just Emperor rolls his eyes.

"We could expand the front, move against Islamic extremism as an entity."

"Annexing the Middle East isn't quite what I had in mind when I gave that "make the world America" speech."

"F**k it, just kick 'em out."

"Yeah, that's what we should do, round up all these no good foreigners and ship 'em back to wherever no good foreigners come from. The terrorists are all Arab, it's not like they'll be hard to find. Deploy the National Guard to every Stop-N-Rob, liquor store and gas station."

"While on some level the idea has merit, it can't be so crude. That said, I've already signed the order that anyone found to be in this country illegally shall be deported back to their land of origin."

"And no one told us, why have these meetings?"

"To see your faces everytime you've been cut out of the loop"

"How 'bout Iraq?"

"Ooh, yeah. I just saw this report from the CIA. Saddam's got nukes and mustard gas and shit. We should nab it. That's a good cover."

"I don't care if the entire country is floating on a huge sea of nerve agent, if some nasty weapons are enough to justify invasion we have to take over three quarters of the planet. Ahead of the timetable, I mean." All present nod. "No, I think we'll build up our presence in the Gulf and wait until a more opportune time to spur them on. Additionally, we're increasing domestic oil production and. . . Mexico is being very accomodating as well since we stepped up border security. Do what we can to support pro-American factions there, but don't invade yet. Iraq and Mexico."

Of course, if that meeting happens tomorrow it would go a bit differently.

"We never should have gone in there, the intel was crap, we didn't have enough troops, the French hate us --"

"We are there, screw the intel, it isn't more troops we need but police and civil administrators, the French always hate us and we now have a responsibility to the Iraqi people that starts with security. Now I don't want to hear any more talk about oil production, democracy, Saddam's trial, American withdrawal or elections until such time as a Westerner or a lone unarmed Iraqi in a national guard uniform can walk down a street in any city of that nation in the middle of the night without fear of being kidnapped, blown up, gunned down or beheaded! Is that so much to ask? Reward those who help us, kill those who resist us, be respectful to those who just want it over. Not hard, not new. Do it. Screw it up, we've got newly vacant rooms at Gitmo."

We're now locked in. We might as well embrace the choices we've made and work for the best possible outcome rather than second-guessing every move and spouting gloom and doom scenarios at every turn. There were many legitimate objections to the invasion of Iraq, but they've all become academic. It can prove to be a profoundly good thing that was done, unless we (Americans) screw it up. That's were debate needs to be, what to do here and now, not what we might have done two years ago.

For Americans anyway, Europeans have every right to complain about it and villify us. No hard feelings, we'll be there when and if you need us.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1116935472

clark · 2005-05-24 05:58:36

There were many legitimate objections to the invasion of Iraq, but they've all become academic. It can prove to be a profoundly good thing that was done, unless we (Americans) screw it up. That's were debate needs to be, what to do here and now, not what we might have done two years ago.

Old saying, "No use crying over spilt milk."

Usually pronounced by those who are not required to do any of the actual cleaning of spilt milk. :laugh:

BWhite · 2005-05-24 06:38:36

Over the last few days, we launch a major offensive to sweep Baghdad clear of insurgents. Arrest 400 or someting like that. Today, a new wave of bombings rip through Baghdad, killing at leats three US soldiers and many civilians. Yup, we are winning.

Listen up! My objections were two-fold and consistent from the very beginning:

(1) It was a bad imprudent idea, but

(2) If we were going to do it anyway, send enough firepower and resources to WIN QUICKLY

Sadly, for Bush and Rummy looking GOOD is more important that winning.

clark · 2005-05-24 06:56:37

Oh, but they do look so GOOD!

Fashion has a price.

The Right cannot admit that Bush and CO. have mishandled anything- to do so would be to tacitly admit that following blind was wrong.

No use ccrying over spilt milk now.

Palomar · 2005-05-24 07:02:15

Sadly, for Bush and Rummy looking GOOD is more important that winning.

*Well they've still got some work to do in that regard, don't they?

CC: There were many legitimate objections to the invasion of Iraq, but they've all become academic. It can prove to be a profoundly good thing that was done, unless we (Americans) screw it up. That's were debate needs to be, what to do here and now, not what we might have done two years ago.

True. Would the persons here who are completely and entirely opposed to the Iraq war be happy if it all did truly unravel and fall apart totally? If everything were ultimately in vain?

For the sake of all the lives lost, I sure hope some good does come of it.

Can't go back in time, can't unscramble eggs.

--Cindy

Gennaro · 2005-05-24 07:03:59

For Americans anyway, Europeans have every right to complain about it and villify us. No hard feelings, we'll be there when and if you need us.

Thanks for patronizing me. You make me feel like a disgruntled housewife.

No seriously, if the American public just had a better grasp about the world around them, these things wouldn't happen quite so often.

clark · 2005-05-24 07:12:32

No seriously, if the American public just had a better grasp about the world around them, these things wouldn't happen quite so often.

What, progress?

Cobra Commander · 2005-05-24 07:14:53

No seriously, if the American public just had a better grasp about the world around them, these things wouldn't happen quite so often.

I can't argue with that. The American public isn't known for its fine grasp of the rest of the world.

Or the rest of the country for that matter. :hm:

Palomar · 2005-05-24 07:15:33

*I've noticed for quite a while that when Americans, Australians and British discuss the Iraq war and surrounding issues, there's a true mix of opinions: Some are strongly in favor of, some are strongly opposed to, some are indifferent or unsure (but not many).

But with Europeans and our neighbors to the north? Almost an entirely consensus agreement that the Iraq war is completely wrong.

If disagreement is the sign of a healthy society, it would seem the Coalition is composed of healthier elements? It also seems the Europeans in particular are going on some sort of Group Think. (Sorry...just noticing and commenting...)

--Cindy

Gennaro · 2005-05-24 07:29:34

True. Would the persons here who are completely and entirely opposed to the Iraq war be happy if it all did truly unravel and fall apart totally? If everything were ultimately in vain?
For the sake of all the lives lost, I sure hope some good does come of it.
Can't go back in time, can't unscramble eggs

Nah, I wouldn't be too happy if the US continued to make a perfect ass of itself and ever more children had to get their limbs amputated.

Question is what you are trying to achieve in Iraq at all. Keeping the country stable so it won't turn into a civil war between rival factions? Looks like you're putting out the fire with you know what. Don't think you could do so much about it either if that was a fact. The power struggle would only recommence as soon as you leave.

Why not just walk away from it and leave it to the Iraqis themselves? I mean if they want democracy, it's their choice isn't it? Will hurt less the sooner you fold, won't be able to pull any bluffs, anyway.

If I was the US president I'd make preparations to leave the theater all together. Let them keep their Bunker-T and go to hell. Then I'd initaite an ordinary, plain criminal investigation of the 9/11 events, no strings attached.

Gennaro · 2005-05-24 07:34:16

If disagreement is the sign of a healthy society, it would seem the Coalition is composed of healthier elements? It also seems the Europeans in particular are going on some sort of Group Think. (Sorry...just noticing and commenting...)

Will keep that in mind. Maybe there are those who try to brainwash you and we have their conflicting cousins over here trying to brainwash us? Who knows...

clark · 2005-05-24 07:34:42

Group think is the result of groups forcing others to give in to a predetermined point of view.

I doubt Europeans are forced to believe that the Iraqi war is a mistake.

Palomar · 2005-05-24 07:46:00

Why not just walk away from it and leave it to the Iraqis themselves?

*-Can- the US do that? My mother, who fully supported the war, suggested the US completely withdraw in early 2004. I told her it seemed a bit too late to want no involvement now. :-\

I'd love for us to just walk away and leave it to the Iraqis. But is that possible? And wouldn't we then be condemned for "not finishing what we started" -- ?

I mean if they want democracy, it's their choice isn't it?

Yes, it should be. But do they even know what "democracy" is? All they know is dictatorship and, from their neighbors, theocracy. And I'm highly skeptical that anyone can be "given" democracy. Also, I'm still not convinced it behooved America to try.

Will hurt less the sooner you fold

Maybe. But, again, won't we then be vilified as "cowards" and not having the ability/will to "finish what we started" --?

--Cindy

P.S.: Isn't it time to start the next Political Potpourri thread? This one is over 300 posts.

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