New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#151 2008-04-27 07:33:42

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,061
Website

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

No more GM Spam!


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#152 2008-04-30 02:58:46

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

A few more details from Andrews Space about their contract to work on Altair.

NASA Selects Andrews Space For Lunar Lander Contract

Seattle, WA – April 21, 2008 - Andrews Space, Inc. (Andrews) announced today that it has signed a contract with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) to conduct research and development related to NASA’s Lunar Surface Access Module.  The specific efforts focus on the Altair Lunar Lander, designed to transport humans back on the surface of the Moon for the first time in half a century.

Under NASA Johnson Space Center’s Constellation Lunar Lander Development Study, Andrews will conduct a 210-day study to independently evaluate NASA's in-house design concept for a lunar Lander that will deliver four astronauts to the surface of the moon by 2020.  Andrews will evaluate the current design, propose safety improvements and recommend industry-government partnering arrangements.

“This is an exciting time for space exploration and development”, said Jason Andrews, President of Andrews Space.  “Our dedicated team is driven to play an intricate part in pioneering space technology and advancement.”

Andrews Space is one of five prestigious companies selected for design study of the Lunar Lander craft.  Other contract awardees include Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and Odyssey.  Headquartered in Seattle, WA, Andrews will leverage its field offices in Huntsville, AL and Houston, TX to execute this contract.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

Offline

#153 2008-04-30 12:08:46

RedStreak
Member
From: Illinois
Registered: 2006-05-12
Posts: 541

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

Hopefully Andrews is up to the task, but considering they have a few years to work the problem it's a bit premature to be critical of anything.

Offline

#154 2018-05-08 17:18:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,800

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

Nasa'a plans to continue forward to the moon requires that we do more than a deep space habitat.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.spacere … 18_Web.pdf

The nasa mission planning starts on page 11

While the BFR is just a mars plan starting on page 16

Offline

#155 2018-07-16 09:47:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,800

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

In one of the recent nasa links for the current direction for our outward path to moon and mars containing the gateway and more within it. One side Nasa was depicted to be looking for a commercial lunar lander to be developed by corporations rather than by Nasa. This is a key element missing from going to the lunar surface even if we could make it there with what we have.

Offline

#156 2018-07-16 11:07:30

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/msn/jeff … ar-AAzHk6e
Quote:

Jeff Bezos' space company Blue Origin plans to land on the moon by 2023

I believe the lander is depicted to look like an Apollo LEM (Sort of), but is based, on the sub-orbital New Shepard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin_Blue_Moon

While the lander is indicated to be for cargo, and the plan is to place loads with limited self assembly to a base on the Moon, I believe that it could deliver humans in spacesuits rather nicely, if it drops them from Lunar Orbit to the surface base.  I really don't see why there would be a desire to have a pressurized landing craft at all, if a base it to be built.  Maybe a portable supplemental suit life support system(s) on board.

Defend the gateway, or talk against it?  Why should I.  Not my problem.

……

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/jeff-bezo … ttlements/
Quote:

Jeff Bezos and his Blue Origin space venture go all in on moon settlements


LOS ANGELES — Amazon billionaire Jeff Bezos says his Blue Origin space venture will work with NASA as well as the European Space Agency to create a settlement on the moon.
RELATED: Full text and  podcast of Jeff Bezos’ remarks this weekend
And even if Blue Origin can’t strike public-private partnerships, Bezos will do what needs to be done to make it so, he said here at the International Space Development Conference on Friday night.
Bezos laid out his vision for lunar settlement during a fireside chat with yours truly, which took place just after he received the National Space Society’s Gerard K. O’Neill Memorial Award.
In the short run, Blue Origin’s objective is to reduce the cost of access to space — initially with its New Shepard suborbital spaceship, and then with its orbital-class New Glenn rocket in the 2020s.
In the long run, Bezos’ vision is to smooth the way for millions of people working in space. Those people just might live and work inside huge spinning habitats — a concept that was proposed decades ago by O’Neill, a Princeton physicist whose ideas on space settlement fueled Bezos’ passion for the final frontier..

Blue Origin founder Jeff Bezos tells a take at the International Space Development Conference that draws a laugh from GeekWire’s Alan Boyle. (Keith Zacharski / In the Barrel Photo)
The way Bezos sees it, moving heavy industry into solar-powered space outposts is the only way to ensure that our planet can cope with the rising demand for energy, and the stress that growing populations will put on Earth’s environment.
“We will have to leave this planet,” Bezos told me. “We’re going to leave it, and it’s going to make this planet better. We’ll come and go, and the people who want to stay will stay.”

And then there is "China + Friends" and "SpaceX + Friends" to keep "Blue Origins + Friends" company. 

It is kind of "Baked In" I think as someone I cite often says.  The USA is not likely to let others and their friends take command of the Moon, without counter moves, but who knows maybe collaborative moves in some cases.

The Moon has been upgrading as an object of interest anyway.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2018071 … space-race
Quote:

Amazingly, Nasa believes such Moon colonies could be established within the next four years.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-07-16 11:38:16)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#157 2018-07-16 12:34:03

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,800

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

So what happened with all the work under constellation is NASA Abandons Lunar Rover Plan for Private Landers to  spur competition between companies like SpaceX, United Launch Alliance, and Blue Origin, and that rocket race has driven launch costs to historic lows. The next step will give industry a chance to take the reins a little farther from home by putting the first private lander on the surface of the moon.

Some of this is budget for 2019 and the future as to do we have or not a NASA to make orbiting lunar base decision in early 2019

Lunar Orbital Platform-Gateway, the contract for the first part of the gateway, a power and propulsion element, will be awarded in early 2019 to either Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Orbital ATK, Sierra Nevada Corp. or Space Systems/Loral. Those five are finishing four-month studies on how to best build it.

The outpost is not meant for continuous human presence, but will have the power element as well as the eventual addition of a habitation space, capable of supporting four astronauts for 30 to 60 days.

Nasa will be trying to stage the moon missions with international partners from the human side of the equation and it will need lots of cargo haulers to do what they want to do with base building of an outpost.

The seed of which was in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_CATALYST

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/03 … r-landers/

With this the human lander is looking smaller than the one in this topic to allow for the other launchers to be able to launch it from earth.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-seeks … -payloads/

The base its self was to be explored by the Lunar prospector which as of earlier this year was cancelled but the new design will be leveraged from this work.

How NASA’s canceled lunar rover could still live on as a commercial mission

KSC_20170628_PH_KLS01_0061_orig.0.jpeg

The space agency was working toward a budget of $250 million for Resource Prospector, but commercial companies could now shoulder more of the development costs. NASA could then pay the private industry for their services, and then the companies would have landers and rovers to sell to other customers.

This is a plus if it works as the cargo launchershave with space x in particular..but can others follow?

Offline

#158 2018-07-16 16:00:05

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

There are a lot of things to be confused about as concerns the Moon potentials, and I think some is calculated to confuse us, and some is just confusing because possibility is likely to expand as things progress.

I don't have the illusion that I understand very well what I am trying to perceive.

I do think that Blue Origin will build a Cargo Lem.  I wonder if it will be re-usable?  It seems like it should be in accordance with the religion of the today on space methods.

If the B.O.LEM smile is reusable, how does it get serviced?  I think that ULA is working on a fuel depot.  But could SpaceX BFS(Cargo) take it down to Earth for major reworking?  Would they bother?

Or does Blue Origins New Glen and New Armstrong include those functions?  Or are those just cargo launches? 

And what does Branson have in mind?

Vulcan might be best suited for a specialized purpose, cannot bring the B.O.LEM to the Earths surface, I think.  But they think they will burn less fuel on recovering low value hardware.  Probably true if they can pull off their return of engines and avionics method.

Blue Origins 1st stage booster return seems to involve less fuel use and more of a gliding capability, unless I am confused.  That might make it more suitable for some things.  I am not all that capable of getting my minds arms wrapped around that yet.

As for Lunar rovers, Tesla?  Is there some reason a red roadster was exposed to launch and space conditions other than a flashy ballast?

More questions than answers.  I don't think we mere mortals are supposed to figure it all out just yet.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-07-16 16:21:31)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#159 2018-07-16 17:53:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,800

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

Current cargo view:
1-AmericaSpace-Infographic-discussing-SpaceX-Dragon-spacecraft.-Image-courtesy-of-NASA-Max-Q-Entertainment.jpg

Gw ran some numbers for the current dragon cargo and for the red dragon for a lunar use landing and both were capable of a one way landing as they did not have the engines to get back off the moons surface even if refueled.

The crew would arrive on orbit sort of like this
maxresdefault.jpg

SpaceX Falcon Heavy: Uncertain Case for Lunar Exploration

Landing would look something like this:
DragonV2-5.png

https://planetplots.blogspot.com/2017/0 … lunar.html
This would be simular to the GW numbers by altering the current truck dragon cargo version to have a service module and the ability to orbit the moon and land.

So getting to the moon with 2 falcon heavy launchers for altered Dragon crew and a modified cargo to be able to land on the moon and be able to return.

Offline

#160 2018-07-16 19:30:28

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,800

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

Another site with simular dragon modifications to make a lunar landing possible.
https://www.quora.com/Will-Elon-Musks-S … ar-landing

And using the Falcon for low cost missions to the moon
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/0 … -cost.html

Offline

#161 2018-07-16 19:32:36

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,880

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

An ACES upper stage could make a lunar mission happen with existing hardware.  If some cooperation between SpaceX, ULA, and NASA was required, so what?

Offline

#162 2018-07-16 20:39:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,800

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

Had to look up the acronym; The Advanced Cryogenic Evolved Stage (ACES), formerly the Advanced Common Evolved Stage, is a proposed liquid oxygen/liquid hydrogen upper stage rocket for use on the Vulcan space launch vehicle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_ … lved_Stage

It is the next generation centaur replacement
https://www.ulalaunch.com/rockets/vulcan-centaur

The modular design of ACES supported the production of a number of standard propellant load stages, in a number of standard lengths, that are otherwise common, including the main propellant tank diameter of 5 metres (16 ft), "a size not seen since the 1970s." Several variants were proposed by ULA in 2010—[1] an ACES 41 upper stage with 41 tonnes (90,000 lb) propellant capacity; an ACES 73 upper stage with 73 tonnes (161,000 lb) propellant capacity; ACES 41 and ACES 73 tankers, which would have no engines; and an ACES 121 depot which would consist of an ACES 41 upper stage main vehicle (for LO2 storage) and an ACES 73 tank (modified for LH2 storage) with 121 tonnes (267,000 lb) of long-term, in-space, propellant depot capacity—but none of those options survived into the post-Vulcan ACES design concept by 2018.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_%28rocket%29

Still not built yet but should be pretty straight forward as its using existing hardware for engines.

Offline

#163 2018-07-17 20:09:35

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

https://www.space.com/41164-mining-moon … shape.html
Quote:

Mining Moon Ice: Prospecting Plans Starting to Take Shape

……

Thermal mining
"We're at the tipping point of a new era in space commerce, where private industry, NASA and international collaborators are joining together to realize the dream of launching humanity into the solar system," said Hunter Williams, a Colorado School of Mines researcher. "There has never been a more exciting time for furthering science, turning a profit or promoting international cooperation than right now."
Williams, along with Chris Dreyer and George Sowers, also of the School of Mines, detailed a low-cost mission to discover the extent of water resources on the moon, as well as a newly developed extraction technique, "thermal mining," that transforms lunar water ice into rocket fuel.
Thermal mining makes use of a high-efficiency energy source — direct sunlight. Using multiple gimbaled mirrors around permanently sunlit peaks near deep, shadowy craters, thermal mining can tap into up to 99 percent sunlight through the year, advocates say. And using direct solar energy transfer into a super-cold crater can provide variable heating, allowing managers to control the production rate.
Williams said that thermal mining is an efficient, scalable, sustainable method of ice mining at the lunar poles. Offering lower weight and fewer moving parts, the technique provides a feasible alternative to traditional excavation concepts, he said.

For my part, I want to see Oxygen stressed as a mono-propellant in non planemo orbital situations.

The Hydrogen from Lunar water would be most useful in extracting Oxygen from Lunar regolith.
Of course it would also be useful in refueling a craft to lift the LOX or regolith off of the Moon surface.

Oxygen as a monopropellant would be possible to do in 3 situations at least I think.
1) As expelled Oxygen ice pellets in a linear accelerator.
2) In a Microwave heating method.
3) In an Ion electric rocket method.

Having those options, I think that the use of combustion with Lunar Hydrogen, should be limited to situations where it is of high value, such as launching from the surface of the Moon.

Although, it may be possible to extract LOX from the Moon on the Moon, then you have to tank it up, and manage it during flight to its useful purpose in non planemo orbital situations, or combustion burns to lift off of the Lunar surface.

I would limit the production of LOX on the Moon to that one purpose, combustion to refuel lifting ships to move from the Lunar surface to Lunar orbit.

Beyond that, then also as a Monopropellant to move Lunar regolith to a space station with synthetic gravity.  There to process the regolith into various valuable materials, including LOX.

For such space stations, we can consider the materials of:Index
» Science, Technology, and Astronomy
» Gateway Spaceport
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8325

For my tastes, although I enjoy their lofty imaginative and ambitious notions, I would boil it down to a reduction of their objectives, but an inclusion of extraction of Lunar materials from Lunar regolith brought to such a station.

In my mind such a capability, various propulsion modes involving Oxygen, as a combustion propellant, and also as a monopropellant, would change everything, give us the whole solar system, once you add Nuclear power to a propulsion system.  (Not to reject solar for the inner solar system as it may be economically competitive and perhaps more safe).


There RobertDyck.  Not political at all I think.

Done.

I have to say that his video is really quite a lot of fun!
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%2 … ORM=VRDGAR

Done again!

Last edited by Void (2018-07-18 08:13:42)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#164 2018-12-28 12:39:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,800

Re: Altair - Lunar Lander (LSAM) - status

wow Nasa has gone Dormant for going to the moon...

Nasa was a go with the Ares v for launching the Altair and EDS stage to the moon where it would mate up with the Orion/ cm /sm and and it would then fire up what was still in its eds stage to enter lunar orbit before linking up with the lander in orbit.

The Altair was to has a mass of 45t which seems retardly heavy..

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB