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#51 2006-09-08 16:12:28

cjchandler
Member
From: canada
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 138

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Interesting, I read of a simmilar system for mining He3 deposited by solar wind. Chemically, I'm not sure how this would work as far as breaking down the oxides in the regolith without them re-combining again. Does any one know if the oxygen is deposited by solar wind as well? If so, it could be relativly easy to get at, though I would think the total amounts avaliable would be rather low.


Ad astra per aspera!

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#52 2006-09-08 17:14:57

GCNRevenger
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From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Um no, the oxygen was probably deposited from the Moon's original creation, which is in turn deposited in our region of the solar system during its creation, as heavy elements settled closer to the Sun. There are several millions, maybe billions of tonnes of oxygen sitting the Lunar soil. This is why the Moon is grey.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#53 2006-09-08 18:47:54

cjchandler
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From: canada
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 138

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Yes, I realize that most of the oxygen on the moon is from it's original formation, but isn't all that in aluminium and titanium oxides? I don't understand how that oxygen could be removed just by heating the regolith up to a few hundred degrees and how is could be easily captured. Maybe it is possible, but I thought that if extra oxygen was deposited by solar wind it would not have combined yet with the other elements and might be more easily accessible. I'm not a chemist however, so maybe a few hundred degrees is enough to get at the main store of oxygen. I'd love to be enlightened if it does work, it makes everything so much easier!


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#54 2006-09-08 19:40:16

GCNRevenger
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From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

The amounts of molecular oxygen that would be implanted in the Lunar dust from Solar wind would be nil for anything useful, most of what the Sun throws off is protons (hydrogen sans electrons) and the occasional bit of Helium. Helium is scarce, milligrams per tonne kind of scarce, and oxygen would be even worse.

A few hundred degress, perhaps not... a few thousand though would certainly cause substantial oxygen release from metal oxides.

If there were much in the way of molecular oxygen from solar wind, given the energies it would have (due to its velocity) it may even have enough zap to it to force itself onto normal metal oxides to form some odd compounds that violate stoichiometry, which would result in it being tightly bound to the dust. When you start talking particle accelerator-like powers, the "regular" rules of chemistry don't nessesarrily apply.


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#55 2006-09-11 11:40:52

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Technology Review interview with Patrick McKenzie, Orion project business development manager at Lockheed Martin Space Systems:

We are looking at heat-shield materials like PICA [phenolic impregnated carbon ablator] and SLA [a cork-based ablative material] that Lockheed has proven on the Genesis and Stardust deep-space sample return missions.

Another thing that's going to be new is "skip reentry," which we are going to be doing routinely. That's where you bounce off the atmosphere and come back in again, which gives you the ability to touch down on land, as opposed to the Apollo landings in the ocean.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#56 2006-09-11 12:26:54

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

And another longer article based on an interview with McKenzie in Flight International:

"If the budget and requirements stay stable we could deliver Orion in 2012"  (McKenzie)

McKenzie expects SSR to slip to the first quarter of 2007

McKenzie expects its Exploration Development Center Project Orion headquarters in Houston to be fully staffed, with perhaps up to 1,200 engineering, software development and testing jobs, in 18 months' time.

"We have baselined for the TPS the Stardust capsule material" (McKenzie)

According to the leaked Constellation planning documents, the agency is planning four Orbital flight tests between 2013 and 2014. The first is set for July, August or September 2013, with the second test due in April, May or June 2014. The third and fourth tests, which are manned, are set for 2014.

The initial ISS crew transport flight is due in the first quarter of 2015. The internal document schedules eight flights to the ISS from March 2015 through to September 2016.

That same document places what it calls FT-1, Flight Test One, to the Moon in 2018, with two flight tests in 2019 and two more in 2020. It is unlikely these will all be manned or that the first few will involve lunar landings. Like Apollo, Constellation is expected to have circumlunar flight and aborted descent test runs.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#57 2006-09-11 18:18:08

cjchandler
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From: canada
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 138

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Thanks, GCNR. I thought a few hundred degrees was optimistic. I never thought about the heat on impact causing solar wind particles to bind either, probably because it wasn't a big deal with He3. I won't clog this thread up with any more off topic discussion.


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#58 2006-09-11 18:59:06

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Here is a good link on the Breathing Moonrocks

The Moon has plentiful oxygen for future astronauts. It's lying on the ground.

In a proof of principle, Cardiff and his team used a lens to focus sunlight into a tiny vacuum chamber and heated 10 grams of simulated lunar soil to about 2,500 degrees C. Test samples included ilmenite and Minnesota Lunar Simulant, or MLS-1a. Ilmenite is an iron/titanium ore that Earth and the Moon have in common. MLS-1a is made from billion-year-old basalt found on the north shore of Lake Superior and mixed with glass particles that simulate the composition of the lunar soil.

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#59 2006-09-13 10:39:20

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Griffin opens mouth to science community and states since they are unwilling to reduce there budgets that the Orion will not be ready for use until 2014......

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#60 2006-09-15 00:35:44

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
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Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Thanks to Robert Pearlman for these photos of the mockup of the full scale capsule and its Honeywell Avionics at the Lockheed Martin Exploration Development Laboratory.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#61 2006-09-15 23:46:05

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
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Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

(copied over from the Ares I (CLV) - status thread)

Here is another of the contracts that have been awarded.

NASA Awards Thermal Protection Contract for Orion Spacecraft to Boeing


The present Phase II contract with Boeing is a continuation of an earlier Phase I NASA effort that evaluated phenolic impregnated carbon ablator (PICA), as well as four other candidate materials using extensive testing and analysis. Boeing has been selected to provide PICA, a proprietary material manufactured by its subcontractor, Fiber Materials Inc. of Biddeford, Maine, for continued testing and evaluation.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#62 2006-09-19 03:39:59

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Interesting NASA solicitation on Sep 13, 2006 for LCH4:

1. KT Engineering Glenn Research Center CEV Service Module Main Engine Development Program. 2. Data required for contract milestone or Preliminary Design Review. Requirement for TS 115 1. Methane is the fuel for the 6" LOX/LCH4 Thruster. This technology development is for the Lunar/Mars Missions.

It appears that the service module propulsion system is evolving, hints of an upgrade from MMH/N2O4 to LO2/LCH4?


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#63 2006-09-21 20:38:58

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Would be great if this is a planning step for once we have had a few missions to the moon as a natural progression for Mars.

Orion moon capsule mock-up has test spin; Vehicle will replace shuttle fleet and take astronauts back to the moon

Lockheed Martin built the mock-up to help understand the volume and geometry involved in the design and construction of the Orion. NASA has developed its own model, which is slightly different.

"It starts to give you an idea of the real size involved," said Cleon Lacefield, Lockheed Martin's vice president and the company's Orion program manager. "It really comes up to be pretty spacious."

So for the lunar trip, Orion will have about 95 cubic feet per astronaut, compared with 70 cubic feet per Apollo astronaut. Orion's trip to the space station will be a little more crowded with each of the six astronauts getting 63 cubic feet.

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#64 2006-09-23 13:15:17

dicktice
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

So ... this is just another parachuting, solid-rocket-assisted capsule, this time capable of dirt instead of water landings. And not available until 2013. Means we'll be depending upon Soyuz TMA's and Progresses for 3 years to transport crews to and from the ISS. It would seem impossible to maintain enough personnel to do more than housekeeping chores in the laboratories until then. Seems to me a great opportunity for privately financed development program to produce a money making flyback spaceplane compatible with the Orion launcher scheme--right now, if not already in the works behind closed doors!

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#65 2006-09-23 13:35:19

cjchandler
Member
From: canada
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 138

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Hey, haven't been keeping up with the local news? Our provincial govenment just gave land to Planetspace to launch from Cape Breton to the ISS in their silver dart spaceplane. Whether it works will remain to be seen... but there are plans. I'm from NS too.


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#66 2006-09-23 14:09:25

RedStreak
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From: Illinois
Registered: 2006-05-12
Posts: 541

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

I do agree with ya dicktice about how commercial orbital capability could fill the gap and probably more cheaply.  They probably won't be able to have a better time to convince NASA to use them than that and likely w/ the Congress screaming for wanting US capability while the Orion is under construction.

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#67 2006-09-28 09:35:24

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Nasa needs to explain there decisions as indicated by the call to
COMMITTEE TO REVIEW NASA’S PLAN TO DEVELOP ORION, THE CREW EXPLORATION VEHICLE, AND GAO CONCERNS

Specifically, the hearing will explore the following overarching questions:

1)      What is NASA’s strategy for developing Orion?

2)      Does NASA have the knowledge required to enter into a long-term development contract?

3)      What steps can NASA take to ensure timely and cost-effective development of Orion?

Thursday September 28, 2006

Full Committee - Hearing
Implementing the Vision for Space Exploration: Development of the Crew Exploration Vehicle
2:00pm to 4:00pm

Witnesses

Dr. Scott J. Horowitz, Associate Administrator, Exploration Systems Mission Directorate, NASA
Mr. Allen Li, Director, Acquisition and Sourcing Management, Government Accountability Office

Nasa TV choose the viewer link on this page to watch.

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#68 2006-09-28 11:31:47

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Very readable story from MSNBC:

... all primary systems routed through a fold-out panel of touchscreens that swings into place above the pilot and commander seats beneath the primary windows.

At least two more windows, one to either side of the pilot and commander seats, and one hatch portal are planned for Lockheed’s current Orion design. Like NASA’s Apollo vehicles, the entry hatch is mounted to Orion’s side while a docking tunnel – for either the space station or lunar vehicles – opens at the top.

“Now that we’re all together, it’s just amazing,” Hatfield said. “It’s just great to see the excitement and enthusiasm.”


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#69 2006-09-29 07:08:27

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

As GCNRevenger has put it when discussing shuttle and Iss it appears that the Vision for Space Exploration is shaping up to be just another workfare program to keep Nasa engineers to stay employeed.

Gov. Jeb Bush: Orion helps preserve space jobs

Winning that work is a first step in preserving as many space jobs as possible after NASA retires its space shuttle fleet around 2010. Some predictions indicate the number of people employed at KSC could fall from 15,000 today to 10,000 or fewer. Orion should ultimately employ 2,500 to 3,000 workers at KSC by 2008 and likely through 2019, program manager Cleon Lacefield said

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#70 2006-10-02 00:03:07

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

(copied from Ares I thread)

the contract figures are $3.9Bn for R&D and (right) TWO (not four) test capsules + $4.2Bn to build the eight Orions fleet for manned flights (total 8.1Bn + inflation, cost growt, etc.)

To be precise here is the news release fom NASA about the Orion contract with LM:

The contract is structured into separate schedules for DDT&E with options for production of additional spacecraft and sustaining engineering. During DDT&E, NASA will use an end-item cost-plus-award-fee incentive contract. This makes the award fee subject to final determination after the contractor has demonstrated that it meets the technical, cost, and schedule requirements of the contract.

DDT&E work is estimated to occur from Sept. 8, 2006, through Sept. 7, 2013. The estimated value is $3.9 billion.

Production and sustaining engineering activities are contract options that will allow NASA to obtain additional vehicles as needed. Delivery orders over and above those in the DDT&E portion will specify the number of spacecraft to be produced and the schedule on which they should be delivered.

Post-development spacecraft delivery orders may begin as early as Sept. 8, 2009, through Sept. 7, 2019, if all options are exercised. The estimated value of these orders is negotiated based on future manifest requirements and knowledge gained through the DDT&E process and is estimated not to exceed $3.5 billion.

Sustaining engineering work will be assigned through task orders. The work is expected to occur from Sept. 8, 2009, through Sept. 7, 2019, with an estimated value of $750 million, if all options are exercised.

This is a "cost-plus-award-fee incentive contract" which means that it should specify a target cost, a target fee, minimum and maximum fees, and a fee adjustment formula. AFAIK inflation and cost growth etc are both covered by this type of contract. Note that the number of production spacecraft has not been specified and that $750 million of the $8.15 billion is engineering support.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#71 2006-10-06 18:58:56

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

NASA Orion crew vehicle will use voice controls in Boeing 787-style Honeywell smart cockpit

NASA’s Orion crew vehicle’s smart cockpit will monitor the vehicle's health, use synthetic, enhanced and virtual vision systems, have advanced on-screen symbology and may eventually employ a talking computer.
Vehicle health management software is seen as key to automating this activity so the cockpit system only informs the astronauts, and ground control, about the spacecraft's status when necessary.

maxie edit: corrected the link above wink

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#72 2006-10-07 04:57:42

Rxke
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From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

may eventually employ a talking computer.

obg. 2001 reference: I can't let you do that, Dave...


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#73 2006-10-18 13:16:54

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Technology Review interview with Patrick McKenzie, Orion project business development manager at Lockheed Martin Space Systems:

We are looking at heat-shield materials like PICA [phenolic impregnated carbon ablator] and SLA [a cork-based ablative material] that Lockheed has proven on the Genesis and Stardust deep-space sample return missions.

Another thing that's going to be new is "skip reentry," which we are going to be doing routinely. That's where you bounce off the atmosphere and come back in again, which gives you the ability to touch down on land, as opposed to the Apollo landings in the ocean.

Saw this in the Employment Times

NASA AMES CREW EXPLORATION VEHICLE with a PICA heatshield manufactured at Fiber Materials, Inc.

Machinist

Manufacturing Technicians

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#74 2006-10-18 14:51:36

cIclops
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Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Well spotted SpaceNut! - this must be the people who will actually build the Orion heatshield.
NASA contracted LockHeed who contracted Boeing who contracted Fibre Materials ...


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#75 2006-10-23 20:00:04

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: Orion (CEV / SM) - status

Well here is another that GCNRevenger will not like... NASA may pay Energia to do work on Orion crew vehicle

US agency solicitation could lead to Russian space company becoming APAS supplier
NASA is considering buying engineering services from Moscow-based Energia in a move that could see the Russian space company contribute to development of the US space agency's Orion crew exploration vehicle.

All because of the Russian-designed ISS Androgynous Peripheral Assembly System (APAS) docking mechanism, which has been specified for the Orion.

Other contracts already in the works:

The first contract was a $17.9 million order, placed in August, for upgrades and parts for the ISS's toilet and water recovery system, and a spare air pump, all of which will be needed when the station changes to a six-person crew in 2009.

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