Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please

Mad Grad Student · 2004-07-21 23:16:06

Anways I suggest that you go to the desert botanical garden, in the fall or spring and see how strong life can be.
Students get a discount cost 5$. I have been their 10 tens and see somthing neww every time!

Wow. Uh, actually, I've been there before Earthfirst. Do I seem like some hyper-conservative plant hater to you or something. Just wondering, because I don't understand what the point of this comment is.

Oooooookay, with genetic engineering it might be possible to grow Earth plants on the Moon, but that's a pretty hefty job there. I'm not going to say that it's impossible to engineer millions of types of plants to withstand longer nights, but it would probably be impossible to fund it. Practically nothing is impossible, funding these things can be, though.

There is a much greater reason to terraform Mars than the Moon. Mars has deuterium, tons of it, and probably other things that can be exported. Mars is a great place to launch interplanetary logistics missions, and thickening its atmosphere won't hurt that. The major reasons for going to the Moon, though, are based on the fact that it's zero atmosphere low-gravity conditions make for great seeing. Terraforming the Moon would kill those features. Not everything in real estate is about location, and sometimes what seems like a hassle can be a blessing in disguise.

Rxke · 2004-07-22 00:15:12

Pity i can't give you guys a link to the article, because it's on my biologigal hardware (in other words: this is from memory)
But i once read a report describing experiments with wheat in a simulated moon-cycle environment. So days and nights of approx 29 days long.

After some thought, the researcher made this plausible system:
Given hibrnation of plants around the polar circles, why not try this with the wheat, during moonights? It sounded like "yes, but this will be though to do"

Well, actually it turned out to be a piece of cake: dduring the nights they lowered the temperature to 10°C (IIRC, it was not very cold, just cool...)
and the wheat just stopped growing, after wich it re-started during moonday, without any negative side-effects.

Off course, wheat is like grass, i guess, wich stops growing when the winter comes, so maybe this is nnot such an extroardanary trait after all in grass-like plants. I could imagine tomatoes having more troubles, for instance.

Rxke · 2004-07-22 00:35:47

Anyone has more up-to-date info on the

http://www.shot.com/docs/techpubs/NIAC.pdf]Robotic lunar ecopoeisis testbed(.pdf)

This is looking so promising... Eventually to be implemented on Mars, but testbeds envisionaged on the moon, ISS first...

There are more pdf's with graphs and drawings on the NIAC site, this project looks well underway... (EDIT: no, this version seems to be the most recent and complete of the set.)

atitarev · 2004-07-22 00:43:05

Thanks, Rik!

I was looking for any research in this area and couldn't find. We'll stick to wheat. Lunarians shouldn't eat tomatoes - bad for their health, only bread, will make them heavier

To MGS

What do you mean no funding for plant selection research? I don't even think genetic engineering will be required. Do we have the money to change the Moon's rotation rate?

I'm not arguing that Mars is of higher value than Luna, this topic is not about priorities. The Moon is an obvious candidate for settlement, after or before Mars.

I tend to think that zero atmosphere is of less value than real estate on another space body. Same thing could be done on a larger asteroid or space stations. I wouldn't waste a planet-sized moon for astronomical laboratory.

Rxke · 2004-07-22 00:52:24

I've read the vacuum on the moon is not hard enough to compare favourably with orbital observatories... And there's still a significant amount of dust in it's (very sparse) atmosphere, whipped up by the solar wind. For industrial processes, the vacuum could come in handy, of course, but is it worth the cost? Dunno...

And why haul Deuterium from Mars if you can harvest it on Earth? It's not that expensive, certainly not compared to geting it from Mars.
(Now i sound like GCNRevenger! )

Mad Grad Student · 2004-07-25 21:45:46

And why haul Deuterium from Mars if you can harvest it on Earth? It's not that expensive, certainly not compared to geting it from Mars.
(Now i sound like GCNRevenger! )

Well, deuterium is very, very expensive. It's almost as expensive as gold, at $10,000 a kilogram. At that price, it's not quite profitable with something like Delta/Atlas tech, but assuming that something Spacex's Falcon could be scaled up and there were infrastructure on Mars, math says that it would be cheaper to bring it from Mars.

The Moon, let's face it, is a dump. There's not much reason to go there, so there's probably even less reason to terraform it. But it's always fun to muse. :;):

karov · 2004-07-25 21:52:05

Good pic of the moon, the small land mass in the first image reminds me of Antolia "Turkey" down a ways it looks like the meditrean cost of syria and palinstien.
Given the lower gravity the moon would make a great retirement home for the old, easy to exerise. The could hop around or fly with wings. I think people will find hopping will be more effeint than walking on the moon.
Yes!
It`s like a map of the Eastern Mediteranean! Bellow 'Anatolia' - some islands ( like Cyprus), left from 'Palestine' - Egypt ( even with spots resembling Nile delta and Kathara valey depression ), furher left - 'Lybia' ( without Kadafi :-) ...)
The scale of this 'map' also seems to be in scale after rough estimation -- 'Anatolia' there is about 1/3th of the lenght of the shown hemisphere.
Anatolii, please tell us your oppinion about the possible climate on the Moon.
This is just my rough estimate of what it could be like:
If we have an artificial magnetic field in place, about 1 bar(?) ntrogen/oxygen atmosphere, about 40-60% of water surface with huge cold salty water and ice reserves in the Aitkin basin (max. 13 km deep) but an evenly spread salty(!) ocean and seas (relative to the size of the Moon, lets' call it an ocean) on the near side of Luna, then having the same sol as it is now will leave us with 50-60 C max at noon at equator in the dryest areas and 40 C on the coast. The night temperatures (towards the dawn) may fall to -20 on the coast and -45 in the depth of the continent around equator, ocean surfaces may start to freeze. Winds will be raging but will smoothe out the temperature differences. Hot weathers will cause evaporations and clouds and rains. The wetter the Moon gets, the milder its climate is going to be. I'd prefer not to use mirrors and shields but people may decide to use them.

Anatolii,
say, Luna would have ~50% or more of its surface covered with World ocean with water table on equal altitude, especially if the Near side`s big water body is linked with navigable cannal or huge syphoning tunnel with the mostly Far side`s Aitken basin. Such plumbing of the hydrosphere via really wide and with capacity comparable with the major Earth`s climate-determining ocean currants underground tunnels is rather plausible engineering solution on the Moon, where the crust is so thick and the planet is solid to such big depth of hundreds of kilometers...

Apart from this main 'World ocean' quite signifficant amount of raining water will be captured in the higher altitudes` numerous and some of them - very wide craters - which walls serving as enormous circular water-dam walls + mountain-islands in the middle of them. The water will flow down through waterfalls ( or another underground tunnels -- a hydro-gravitational energy sourse + the water will be widely distributed , hence, may be smoothening the global climate over the freezing pint of the water ), trenches, rivers... Plumbing of these 'mountain' lakes would get rid them of the very steep thermocline and will include all the liquid water on the terraformed Moon in the hydrologhical-thermocycle.

If you consider this mountain-lakes idea as plausible - how the water flooded Moon would look ?

atitarev · 2004-07-26 00:37:27

Yes!
It`s like a map of the Eastern Mediteranean! Bellow 'Anatolia' - some islands ( like Cyprus), left from 'Palestine' - Egypt ( even with spots resembling Nile delta and Kathara valey depression ), furher left - 'Lybia' ( without Kadafi :-) ...)
The scale of this 'map' also seems to be in scale after rough estimation -- 'Anatolia' there is about 1/3th of the lenght of the shown hemisphere.
Anatolii, please tell us your oppinion about the possible climate on the Moon.

This is just my rough estimate of what it could be like:
If we have an artificial magnetic field in place, about 1 bar(?) ntrogen/oxygen atmosphere, about 40-60% of water surface with huge cold salty water and ice reserves in the Aitkin basin (max. 13 km deep) but an evenly spread salty(!) ocean and seas (relative to the size of the Moon, lets' call it an ocean) on the near side of Luna, then having the same sol as it is now will leave us with 50-60 C max at noon at equator in the dryest areas and 40 C on the coast. The night temperatures (towards the dawn) may fall to -20 on the coast and -45 in the depth of the continent around equator, ocean surfaces may start to freeze. Winds will be raging but will smoothe out the temperature differences. Hot weathers will cause evaporations and clouds and rains. The wetter the Moon gets, the milder its climate is going to be. I'd prefer not to use mirrors and shields but people may decide to use them.
Anatolii,
say, Luna would have ~50% or more of its surface covered with World ocean with water table on equal altitude, especially if the Near side`s big water body is linked with navigable cannal or huge syphoning tunnel with the mostly Far side`s Aitken basin. Such plumbing of the hydrosphere via really wide and with capacity comparable with the major Earth`s climate-determining ocean currants underground tunnels is rather plausible engineering solution on the Moon, where the crust is so thick and the planet is solid to such big depth of hundreds of kilometers...
Apart from this main 'World ocean' quite signifficant amount of raining water will be captured in the higher altitudes` numerous and some of them - very wide craters - which walls serving as enormous circular water-dam walls + mountain-islands in the middle of them. The water will flow down through waterfalls ( or another underground tunnels -- a hydro-gravitational energy sourse + the water will be widely distributed , hence, may be smoothening the global climate over the freezing pint of the water ), trenches, rivers... Plumbing of these 'mountain' lakes would get rid them of the very steep thermocline and will include all the liquid water on the terraformed Moon in the hydrologhical-thermocycle.
If you consider this mountain-lakes idea as plausible - how the water flooded Moon would look ?

Well, I only described the minimum possible. Of course the more water and air pressure, the milder the climate gets. I'll post later an updated map of the Moon, which juts looks more natural and has ice on the poles (we need that!). However, I am not including the nitty-gritty details - trenches, rivers, lakes and of course clouds.

karov · 2004-07-26 05:07:34

Well, I only described the minimum possible. Of course the more water and air pressure, the milder the climate gets. I'll post later an updated map of the Moon, which juts looks more natural and has ice on the poles (we need that!). However, I am not including the nitty-gritty details - trenches, rivers, lakes and of course clouds.

I agree about your minimum. The map is splendid and right. I`m waiting impatiently to see the final look with polar caps.

My point was that the lunar terain is quite multi-attitude one. Many separated by land mass and by huge crater walls systems drenage basins will form as the Earths land-locked 'lowest local areas' drain as final liquid water collectors their attendant lands: Baikal, Isukkul, Dead sea, Katara, Caspian and Aral basin... non-connected with the gravitationally leveraged World ocean. They all have water surfaces on different altitudes, because of the local topography. That what on Earth is a bunch of exceptions, should represent a rule on the Moon. There we see lots of drenage basins due to the cratering, which would be waterfilled as much as the drain-in/evaporation balance allows for each. Unarguably the major ones -- at the maximum lower level -- are the shown on your map - the Nearside ocean and the Aitken farside polar ocean, but unquestionably numerous 'landlocked' seas and lakes will occur, either, say over the big craters of the Farside highlands. The high-altitude water bodies would or wouldn`t drain in the two oceans ( or the World ocean if the two major ones are connected ) - it depends on how much water they`ll collect and how much will evaporate...

Thus the watered Moon is rather world-continent encompasing seas and lakes, than the case of Earth where the continents are islands within world-ocean.

If you agree with me is it possible for you or convenient to adjust the map according to the potential separate drenage zones lunar topography?

atitarev · 2004-07-26 07:00:07

I understand what you mean but it's a bit a hard to predict where the lakes will be and it's not too important. If you wish, take a copy of the image file and modify to reflect how you want it. This is how I see the terraformed Moon:

Terraformed_Moon_Near_Far%20flat.jpg

karov · 2004-07-26 13:13:19

Wondefull map of the terraformed Moon, Anatolii !!!

I can not make it in any sence better. Excuse me. I appreciate your efforts to visualise the concept.

The idea of Moon surface consisting of different altitudes drenage basins, just occured to me. I can not depict it modifying your map. As you said -- it is very hard to predict how the water bodies and levels will distribute over the lunar surface and how the water will re-drain through rivers and waterfalls in lower and lower basins, untill it reaches the two ocean`s level... Quite complex task including estimation of climatological and other patterns should be involved -- s.t. beyond my grasp, which I hoped your expertise will solve.

The ultimate lowest drain beds are unquestionably the shown by you Nearside and Farside ( Aitkin ) oceans.

According to G.Nordley we have to manipulate/design the atmosphere of Moon in order to retain it for billions of years. Tropospheric water 'cold trap' for hydrogen preservation, exobase cooled to 200K by mesosphere modification for general atmosphere retention, artificial mag-field to channel the solar wind`s iones out of the lunar atmosphere -- all measures plausible by the present day science and tech, but not yet the money.

Please, explain the need for polar caps.

G.Nordley points that the atmosphere dynamics will have wider, slower and higher 'waves' that means quite even distribution of heat and moisture having in mind the moon linear dimensions and it slow axial rotation...

atitarev · 2004-07-26 14:21:11

Please, explain the need for polar caps.

Well, it is always colder on the poles, as with any planet, including Earth. Lunar average temperature may get close to Earth's average, so will the lowest and the highest temperatures. The poles are the storages of fresh water as ice - the most stable parts in terms of climate (not so much difference between day and night temperatures, compared to the rest of the Moon) and this where the climate will be really similar to Earth's poles with penguins and polars bears, etc. I don't see any need to put mirrors around the poles, the colder the better atmosphere retention.

karov · 2004-07-28 10:36:39

Please, explain the need for polar caps.
Well, it is always colder on the poles, as with any planet, including Earth. Lunar average temperature may get close to Earth's average, so will the lowest and the highest temperatures. The poles are the storages of fresh water as ice - the most stable parts in terms of climate (not so much difference between day and night temperatures, compared to the rest of the Moon) and this where the climate will be really similar to Earth's poles with penguins and polars bears, etc. I don't see any need to put mirrors around the poles, the colder the better atmosphere retention.

About the lunar climate. Coming out of the climatology of the worlds where the coriolis force is practically inexistent, for example, see the pointed by REB link about the Venusian atmosphere:

http://moon.pr.erau.edu/~holmesg/venus. … venus.html

The climate represents just two hemispherical Hadley cells. The warm air goes up, than towards the poles and the night side. That causes VERY even redistribution of the received by the atmosphere heat. The local temperatures should vary just a little from the average planetary temperature. The non-coriolis distribution is so effective that the simulations show that even worlds with just 0.15 bars ambient troposherical presure would remain habitable, with gaseous atmosphere -- if TIDALLY LOCKED!!!

WE are talking about nearly 1 Bar N2/02 air on Moon -- essentially with the earth normal characteristics with, say, the same average level of water vapour content:

- the Moon has four times shorter distance from equator to poles than Earth and from the cis-sollar point to the midnight. The termally driven global winds will circumnavigate the lunar globe in dozens of hours, not 5-6 days as on earth, hence when reach the colder areas the winds would have lost less part of their warmth...

- there are modest 'ocean areas' to redirect the wind flows and to cause signifficant local climates.

- the comparable hight of the mountains is several times lower than earth. Everest reaches here the top of the toposphere, on Moon the toposphere nevessary for 1 bar surface presure is >50 km high. So in terms of relief as land wind barier the teraformed Moon will be quite flat.

How much evenly will be the heat redistributed globally?
If too much effective are the hemispherical climate cells on relativelly even in flatness and watering surface -- than can at all permanent ice cups occur -- in the given earth level of average planetary temperature?

The orbital path of the Moon around the Earth will in monthly period increase and decrease with amplituide of ~700 000 km it distance to the Sun. Pleace, suggest what influence could have such cycle. The thermal inertia of the climatic systems is big, but this periodicity is due ti add up, and express in some quasi-seasonal patterns with longer frequency. May be tied up with the specifics of the main, earth orbit around the Sun.

atomoid · 2004-09-04 22:43:53

Harlan Ellison spoke at a talk last year about his plans for terraforming the moon. I couldnt find anything in print about it. has anyone seen anything about this?

Basically he said: if we could aim several comets to crash into our Moon at just the right angle, we could get it spinning fast enough to make a 24 day. The comet water would, even in the low gravity, be enough to give it an atmospheric pressure even more than Earth's, and in the thick air you would actually be able to flap your arms and fly (with prosthetic wings of course). The low gravity would still be enough to keep the air pressure around for at least 10,000 years.

Im hoping that the induced spinning of the moon might impart some tidal action and melt the interior invoking some convection, hence some magnetic field protection, although even without it, the thickness of the air might provide more than enough shielding to compensate.

MarsDog · 2004-09-05 13:29:40

In the next few centuries:
The Moon will be a convenient mine and manufacturing place. Since the interior is cooler than Earth, and gravity is lower, long and deep mining tunnels could be turned into settlements. Several weeks of darkness will not be a problem, once a Moon wide power grid is established.
-
In the long future:
Moon is a sister planet to be developed.
If we keep crashing things into it so that the orbit of the Moon becomes geosynchronous, a Moon Earth space elevator would be possible.

Rxke · 2004-09-05 15:00:58

Making the moon's orbit geosynchroneous would end all eb and flow on Earth... Major headache for a lot of animals...

And why use a cable for the whole lenght? travel time would be extremely long that way, better use two shorter strands and 'rocket' between the two terminals.

MarsDog · 2004-09-05 15:56:19

Making the moon's orbit geosynchroneous would end all eb and flow on Earth... Major headache for a lot of animals

Perfect circular Moon Earth orbit with parallel axes of rotation would still leave the Night and Day cycle, and the Summer Winter cycle, if the axes were tilted with respect to the orbital plane around the Sun.
-
Add the http://deschutes.gso.uri.edu/~rutherfo/ … itch.html] Milankovitch Cycles.

Mad Grad Student · 2004-09-05 21:13:03

Basically he said: if we could aim several comets to crash into our Moon at just the right angle, we could get it spinning fast enough to make a 24 day. The comet water would, even in the low gravity, be enough to give it an atmospheric pressure even more than Earth's, and in the thick air you would actually be able to flap your arms and fly (with prosthetic wings of course). The low gravity would still be enough to keep the air pressure around for at least 10,000 years.

Those would have to be some monster comets. I would interpret "a few" as being, say, 8-12 comets, and assuming that each was a pretty good size at 10X5X5 miles (or 250 cubic miles), mostly frozen water and carbon dioxide, and moving at, say 50,000 mph (too high? too low?), I don't see how that number could get you a thick atmosphere and a spinning Moon. And when you factor in how low the Moon's escape velocity is, it would be very, very difficult for a comet to deposit much water.

I'm sure that it's possible, but it would need more than "a few" comets. Something on the order of a thousand or so (absolute random educated guesstimate) might put some spin on the Moon, though.

atomoid · 2004-09-06 01:17:46

Yeah, escape velocity would seem to be a deal-breaker... i cant say im convinced there could be a "just the right angle" of impact to minimize the debris trajectory enough, but i guess if in the first place you had the technology and energy budget to be able to move comets around at will, then you probably would have the capability to dismantle them into many smaller more manageable chunks that could be a cleaner operation. If not, then tens of cubic miles of ice and moon debris splashing away from the impacts would most likely end up raining and crashing down on Earth...

i was hoping to find somethig more written on it and what exactly the calcs were. i just had happened to see Harlan give a talk last year and he was very enthusuastic about it. but thats the last i heard about it, im not too sure about those numbers i recalled...

Almir · 2004-09-10 06:41:56

I think that be possible create an atmosphere basically of CO2 in the Moon. By it be heavier, the CO2 will not escape so easy for the space. At least we would have more homogeneous temperatures, minor radiation and perhaps liquid water in the surface.

karov · 2004-09-11 03:39:52

I think that be possible create an atmosphere basically of CO2 in the Moon. By it be heavier, the CO2 will not escape so easy for the space. At least we would have more homogeneous temperatures, minor radiation and perhaps liquid water in the surface.

Yes, better any atmosphere than none. Aerobraking facility, too. Innitial terraforming blanket for deposition of water and amonia artificial micro-comets...

The same way as it is very usefull and convenient to titan-form the plenty of outer system bodies with surface gravity from 10% to 1% earth`s instead leaving their solid surface under deep vacuum.

The CO2 could come from the CO2-sequestration of Venus - necessary for the terraformation of this planet. Part of it - exported to the Moon. The significant part of the cost for such operation will be the puting of the venusian CO2 in low-venusian orbit, not the shipping to the Moon, Mars or Gallileans.

Coordinated terraformation + rotating space colonies construction is perfect way to establish simultaneously space trade and to utilize the excessive localy but defficient on other places materials.

The Moon needs carbon mostly, it has more than necesarry O2. Enormous part of C during terraformation and later will be confined in geological and biological formations and cycles.

craziphilosopher · 2004-09-14 15:56:45

I believe Luna is a very valuable resource. I have read that there are 10 elements on the moon. They are oxygen,magnesium, aluminum, silicon, thorium, potassium, uranium, iron, calcium, and titanium. Luna is only good for a mining colony. No terraforming just domes and underground facilities. Mine the resources so we can built spacestations and spacecrafts. And so I can live on Luna and make fun of Earthlings. :laugh:

karov · 2004-09-16 00:29:18

The Moon consists of that a asteroid miner will through away as useless dirt. The Moon lacks the hydrothermal processes which leaded to accumulation of some elements here on eArth in the upper crust.

Being a ball of dirt it is only a empty terrain - non developed real estate. Hence - first tourism, later terraforming is the only economically viable purpose for lunar exploitation.

quasar777 · 2005-03-17 23:30:15

someone on space.com mentioned putting a poisonous atmosphere on The Moon. obviously this would be detrimental for those wishing to breathe it. but it would have advantages of parachutes, hovercraft. etc.. & materials Venus contains in spades seemed to be the ingredient, sulur dioxide is one of them i believe. it would seem that trips between Venus & The Moon would be far easier than trips to the roids. it seemed this atmospheric material was easier to hold in than a breathable one. & of of course all the water would hafta be kept away from this.

Austin Stanley · 2005-03-18 01:15:38

You might think it would be easier to get volitiles from Venus then asteriods, but you would be dead wrong. Venus has a gravity well nearly as dense as that of Earth, so if you were to stop there and pick up gasses you would have to fight that gravity on your way out. And on top of this Venus has got to be one of the most inhospitable locations in our solar system. It is closer to the sun increasing worries about radiation (both thermal and ionizing) and the planet itself is a veritable hell hole.

IMO the ideal location to get volitiles for the moon (if you want to go forward with this crazy plan) is right here on Earth. Our atmosphere and ocean has pleanty and a sufficently long elevator cable should be able to hurl them at the moon with little difficulty.

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