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#51 2016-04-06 09:06:35

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

SpaceNut wrote:

No need to import or to go anywhere to get it as all that Mars is lacking is what Earth was able to store in energy for 3 plus billion years in fuels and oxygen.

The Earth has 100+ km of 80% nitrogen above our heads. I don't see that amount on Mars. In order for that amount of nitrogen to be stored underground, The Martian soil and rocks would have to contain way more nitrates than the Earth does. In order to get that nitrogen out of rocks and soil, we'd have to break a lot of chemical bonds to do it, and one has to ask, how did the nitrates get bound into the rocks and soil in the first place, and one has to similarly ask, why has not the Earth's crust similarly absorbed its mostly nitrogen atmosphere? I think there is a lot of oxygen bound in the rocks, probably a lot of carbon and carbon-dioxide as well. The first steps to terraforming Mars will be heating up the planet, liberating oxygen and carbon-dioxide from the ground and polar caps, as well as extracting water from the same place. It is hard to believe that their is a hidden ocean of water beneath the surface. I think some of that stuff may be lost to space.
https://www.easycalculation.com/physics … energy.php
I checked out the kinetic energy of 200 tons of nitrogen accelerated to 150,000,000 meters per second with the above kinetic energy calculator. Turns out the required energy is 2.25e+21 joules per day. There are 86400 seconds in a day, and a watt is a joule per second, you would need a power plant generating at least 26042 terawatts of power to accelerate that nitrogen to about half the speed of light to hit Mars in about 15 hours. There are 16.65 million square kilometers of surface area on Pluto. This would require that we generate 1564 watts per square meter of Pluto's surface, for reference the Earth receives 1380 watts per square meter in sunlight. This would heat up Pluto quite a bit if all this energy was generated on Pluto's surface, but you have to remember Pluto has quite a bit of cold stored in it. We can use Pluto as a heat sink, by melting a lot of ice to create the temperature difference between all the energy generated, and the low temperatures of Pluto's mantle. I wonder how long it would take to heat Pluto to room temperature as compared to bulk up Mars' atmosphere with nitrogen? Probably nuclear fusion would be the way to go, as Pluto has a lot of hydrogen bound up in its crust.

Problem is it would take 815,990 to transport 5.15×10¹⁵ tons of atmosphere from Pluto to Mars at this rate of transfer We could probably step up this amount if we could find 9 other plutos in the Kuiper belt, in that case it would take 81,599 years Mars has 144.80 million km². Mars has 8.7 times the surface area as Pluto so this is probably as much as Pluto can receive. The incoming atmosphere at half the speed of light would substantially heat up the surface of Mars, when added to the sunlight that it already receives. I kind of think half the speed of light is too high a velocity. What if we slowed it down a bit? Say we accelerated it only to 15,000,000 meters per second instead? Instead of 2.25e+21 joules of energy per day it would take 22,500,000,000,000,000,000 joules instead about one hundredth the amount of energy, or about 15.64 watts of energy per square meter on Pluto's surface. We could thus increase the amount sent from Pluto to 20,000 tons per day for the same energy usage. It would take 6 days for the nitrogen to reach Mars from Pluto instead of 15 hours. At 20,000 tons per day from Pluto alone, it would take "Only" 8,160 years to bulk Mar's atmosphere, and if we can find 9 other plutos, we can reduce that to 816 years! Now we are talking terraforming! If we reduce the transfer velocity to 1,500,000 meters per second, we could increase the flow rate to 2,000,000 tons per day, this would reduce the time to transfer 1 Earth's atmosphere worth of material from Pluto to Mars to 81.6 years at the same energy output on Pluto alone, and we don't need to find 9 other Plutos. 81.6 years works just fine on the terraforming time scale, and we would be dumping only 180 watts per square meter on the surface of Mars' atmosphere due to this kinetic energy impact, even when added to Sunlight this wouldn't warm Mars up to room temperature, but the added atmospheric gases would increase the greenhouse effect.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-04-06 09:20:21)

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#52 2016-04-06 16:54:49

SpaceNut
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Sure we need some nitrogen but until we can solve the power to create we are just letting it blow away.

Since we have Maven in orbit still functioning why not send a dozen gas cyclenders to mars at different orbital planes and altitudes to see what happens to which gasses escape via solar wind and which ones are retained high in orbit....once we know these things we can start partial pressure and mix build up. When we know what sticks then we can import what we need....

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#53 2016-04-08 07:19:39

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Probably better not to build cylinders, just accelerate the gas and aim it at Mars. If it goes fast enough, it will follow a straight line trajectory, its just point and shoot, no orbital dance. Upon contact with the Martian atmosphere it will slow down, and the heat of its kinetic energy will spread across the entire atmosphere, contributing to the warming of Mars and the melting of its ice caps. I don't think the nitrogen needs shipping containers if you accelerate it fast enough!

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#54 2016-04-08 08:23:58

Antius
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From: Cumbria, UK
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Posts: 1,003

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

The humans who eventually settle Mars will be interested in creating habitable land at the lowest possible cost in order to expand their settlements.  Dismantling another planet and transporting it 3 billion miles across the solar system would cost more than the planet is worth.  More likely, they will attempt to use resources already on Mars, creating habitable land at the lowest practical energy cost.

One foreseeable option would be to construct a steel framed glass roof over selected portions of the planet and use the nitrogen already present in the Martian atmosphere to fill the far more limited atmospheric volume.  The shell could be counter weighted against internal pressure using Martian soil and rock suspended from the structure using cables or pillars, thus reducing the required structural integrity of the shell over long spans.

In order to minimise the risk due to meteorite impacts and other failure modes, the shell should be divided into cells using thick berms of regolith and rock and no doubt natural features where possible.  As a modular construction, it can start small covering limited areas and grow larger as resource levels grow.

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#55 2016-04-08 09:06:33

Antius
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From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

According to this source, nitrates are present in Martian soil in concentrations of 0.1-1%.

http://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet … 69/?no-ist

If regolith has an average depth of 100m across the planet and nitrate is 14% nitrogen by weight, then each square metre of Mars has about 100kg of trapped nitrogen in the regolith beneath.  Enough to increase atmospheric pressure by 10mbar if it were all released.  As paraterraforming increases soil temperatures and moisture levels and bacteria migrate downwards, this nitrate will be metabolised and released as gas by the decaying bacteria.

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#56 2016-04-08 09:10:35

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Well my plan was to make the Moon into a giant O'Neill colony complete with Earth gravity. the Moon's lack of an atmosphere allows for this. A cheaper alternative is just to live with Lunar gravity and build a giant tower at the poles. You have a vertical sky scrapper, it receives direct sunlight, it could even rotate once every 24 hours on a turn table, each level allows entry of more sunlight through windows. One can have vertical farms for growing food and creating oxygen.
th?id=OIP.M366365fad501bfd700b6367283416cb3H0&w=162&h=176&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.1
Here is a terrestrial version of that same idea. On the Moon, their is no atmosphere for the sunlight to pass through, It is just as intense as at the Moon's equator, the main difference is at the poles, you have 24-hour access to sunlight for all 30 lunar hours of the month. You can rotate your vertical farm to produce night and day for various sections of your vertical farm. The Moon provides the gravity. My feeling is, since a mile high tower is possible on Earth, on the Moon it would be 6 miles high using conventional construction materials, if you allow 10 feet per floor, that would give you 3168 levels of this sky scraper.

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#57 2016-05-31 23:26:13

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 187

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Can cosmic rays to Mars be utilized than blocking it fully ? Molecules heavier than oxygen and nitrogen are not going to escape Martian gravity pull. So can chemicals be pumped into Martian atmosphere where they get showered of cosmic rays to be transmuted or energized mostly by protons and alpha particles ? The resultant chemicals are going to be even denser and may condense. At any rate, a probe circulating in Martian atmosphere could collect these chemicals and replenish with starting materials.

In other words, turning the part of Martian atmosphere in contact with outer space as a factory. It reads like fantasy even to me...

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#58 2016-06-03 06:17:26

SpaceNut
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Posts: 15,587

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

In an attempt to create sort of Van Allen Radiation belts for Mars if I got the meaning correct... To do so would need some sort of field to be created where we want the belts to form such a electric field being passed through particles of iron.....the problem is getting the particles to stay put until they are connected into a complete circuit....

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#59 2016-08-19 11:56:21

elderflower
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

How many Ampere Turns of superconducting cable would we need to put around the Martian equator to create a global field?

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#60 2016-08-19 22:29:40

IanM
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Posts: 275

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

I don't know too terribly much about Magnetism in general, so I might be off the mark, but according to http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb … earth.html, Earth's magnetic field has a strength of 0.3-0.6 Gauss, which is 0.3-0.6*10^-4 Tesla. In order to minimize energy costs, and since Mars is farther away from the Sun, but also to err on the side of more, let's say that the B field should equal to 0.4*10^-4 or 4.0*10^-5 T. Now, Earth can be considered a large bar magnet for the intents and purposes of its magnetic field, but such a setup is impractical on the red planet, but as said before, I don't know that much about magnetism and so can't say anything of the setup, but am trying my best in crunching the numbers.

Now how to turn that into Ampere Turns? An Ampere Turn is the unit of Magnetomotive Force, which is the magnetic extension of Voltage (and not Current, as the name might imply). The magnetic version of Ohm's Law is as follows:

F = P*R
Where F is the Magnetomotive Force, P the Magnetic Flux (equivalent to Current, and usually denoted by the Greek Letter Phi, which is unavailable on my keyboard), and R the Magnetic Reluctance (equivalent to Resistance). All we know so far is B, which is 4.0*10^-5 T, but we can find out P in that B = P/area, which I assume is the surface area of Mars. The surface area of the Red Planet is 55.91 million square miles, which is 1.45*10^14 m^2. That and basic algebra results in P being 5,79*10^9 webers.

So the number of Ampere Turns is essentially 5.79*10^9 times whatever the magnetic reluctance is. There is an equation to derive this involving the length of the circuit and the magnetic permeability of the material it's made of. Elderflower gave a cable around the Martian equator, giving a circuit of 2.1*10^7 m. The most magnetically permeable material according to Wikipedia that produces a field at the specified B field is pure Iron, which is also easily obtainable on Mars and which has a permeability of 0.25. Applying these data, and assuming a cable with a cross-sectional area of 1 square meter, produces a magnetic reluctance of 6.79*10^13 H^-1.

All this, assuming I didn't egregiously err somewhere, provides a cable of 3.94*10^23 Ampere Turns. Assuming 1 complete turn every meter on the surface, this allows for a large cable of 1.84*10^13 Amperes, quite a substantial current.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#61 2016-08-19 23:01:48

RobertDyck
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

IanM wrote:

Greek Letter Phi, which is unavailable on my keyboard

If your computer runs Windows, click Start (Windows XP) or "All Programs" (Windows 7) then "Accessories" then "System Tools" then "Character Map". If you run Windows 10 click Start then "All Apps" then "Accessories" then "Character Map". This will give you a table of all characters available to your computer. The font my computer normally uses is Times New Roman, the default. All characters are listed, first special characters that appear above the numbers on your keyboard "!@#$%^&Z*()", then numbers 0...9, then capital letters A...Z, then lower case letters a...z, all with some special characters interspersed. Finally there are extended letters, starting with common special characters (°±²³¹), then letters with European accents, then the Greek alphabet. If you hover your mouse pointer over a charcter, it will give you a "balloon" with the unicode number and name of the letter. If you click on a letter, the lower right corner of the status bar of the window will give you the key sequence. For example clicking on the degree symbol gives you "Keystroke: Alt+0176". That means you hold down the "Alt" key on the keyboard, then while holding it press keys on the numeric keypad 0176, the release the "Alt" key. This gives you that one character. Greek Capital Letter Phi does not have a keystroke. So you can click "Phi" on the table, then click the button "Select". This will add that character to field "Characters to copy". You could select more charcters, or just click the "Copy" button to copy that field to the clipboard. Then go back to the "Message" on "New Mars Forums", click in the message that you were typing, then press Ctrl-V on the keyboard to paste. If you have difficulty with Ctrl-V then click "Edit" on the menu bar, then click "Paste". Notice that beside paste is "Ctrl+V" which tells you the keyboard shortcut.

To demonstrate: Φ

Last edited by RobertDyck (2016-08-19 23:16:13)

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#62 2016-08-19 23:26:40

IanM
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 275

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Thanks, RobertDyck. Duly noted.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#63 2016-08-27 04:29:06

qraal01
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From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2013-04-19
Posts: 12
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Earth's magnetic moment is 8E+22 A.m^2. The current needed, if the wire is around the Equator, is 626 MA. Not easy with copper, but if it's superconducting, then no problem. Of course we want room temperature superconductors and there's a possible candidate - compressed magnesium hydride [MgH6 specifically] might be superconducting at ~400 K so we might have a ready supply of materials if we can make it and quench it to STP.

On Mars, if we're scaling the field to produce a Solar Wind stand-off distance of 8 planetary radii, the required super-current is about 144 MA. Powering up could take a while - the total magnetic energy will be ~6.8E+17 J, a couple of decades output from a 1 GWe reactor.


Look straight up and be reminded that the Universe is vastly larger, older and more wonderful than the trivia around you. Our woes and worries shrink before such glory.

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#64 2016-08-27 20:33:43

SpaceNut
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Posts: 15,587

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Sure with just 1 power source and a single conductor but what happens when multiple power sources equally spaced appart are used for the wattage input.....

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#65 2016-08-27 20:56:43

IanM
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 275

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

SpaceNut wrote:

Sure with just 1 power source and a single conductor but what happens when multiple power sources equally spaced appart are used for the wattage input.....

Perhaps rather than having a single wire around the Equator, we could have 4 wires from the Geographic North to the Geographic South Pole, each equally spaced out from one another (along the longitudes of, for the sake of naming, the Prime Meridian, 90 West, 180, and 90 East). It would mean that each wire would have to have only a fourth of the current for the same magnetic field, and it would allow a compass to work on Mars much like it does on Earth.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#66 2016-08-29 05:03:38

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,087

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Ian M.
In an electro magnet, the field is perpendicular to the axis of the coil. Your arrangement would give a four pole field with poles around the equator. The current can be split between cables but they must form a single coil to create a two pole field like that of the earth.

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#67 2016-08-29 05:55:22

IanM
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 275

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Ah, my mistake. Good thing we're all in this board!


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#68 2016-08-29 06:07:24

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,700
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Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

elderflower wrote:

Ian M.
In an electro magnet, the field is perpendicular to the axis of the coil. Your arrangement would give a four pole field with poles around the equator. The current can be split between cables but they must form a single coil to create a two pole field like that of the earth.

No he's not. Here's an image I got from a quick Google search. The iron core of the planet becomes the iron core of the electromagnet. Coils around the planet are the wire coils of the electromagnet.
icore.gif

You may be thinking of the right-hand rule for electric current. But that means current flows through a wire parallel to the equator, which produces a magnetic field perpendicular to the wire. That means the magnetic field is aligned with the poles.
141800_Electromagnetism_68.jpg

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#69 2016-08-29 18:27:11

Antius
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From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

qraal01 wrote:

Earth's magnetic moment is 8E+22 A.m^2. The current needed, if the wire is around the Equator, is 626 MA. Not easy with copper, but if it's superconducting, then no problem. Of course we want room temperature superconductors and there's a possible candidate - compressed magnesium hydride [MgH6 specifically] might be superconducting at ~400 K so we might have a ready supply of materials if we can make it and quench it to STP.

On Mars, if we're scaling the field to produce a Solar Wind stand-off distance of 8 planetary radii, the required super-current is about 144 MA. Powering up could take a while - the total magnetic energy will be ~6.8E+17 J, a couple of decades output from a 1 GWe reactor.

Could the coil be aluminium or some other common metal if its temperature is reduced to a few K?  A single large cable could have several metres of insulation, keeping refrigeration costs to quite low levels.

It is scary to think what might happen to those 6.8E17 J if one part of the global loop suddenly 'developed' an electrical resistance ?.  I wonder how big the crater would be?

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#70 2016-08-29 18:35:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 15,587

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Found 1 of my posts that relates ...

SpaceNut wrote:

The paper indicates solar power for energy to create shield but panels can not be deployed when shield power is needed so a larger battery is needed to sustain power through out the aerocapture process.

Also a magnetic guass is different than Tesla since that is Radiant/Radio Frequency energy or RF which is EMF (Electro-magnetic Field) radiation strength. Reading the structure it indicates a Dipole which is RF not magnetic. The plasma is contained via a rotating field which is not RF energy but magnetic.

A magnetic field drops off very rapidly with even small distances and require a ferite core to mantain its strength versus a plain coil of wire.

Think of RF as AC created field while Guass is a DC or permanent magnet field.

Some numbers for field strength:
0.31–0.58 gauss – the Earth's magnetic field at its surface
25 gauss – the Earth's magnetic field in its core
50 gauss – a typical refrigerator magnet
100 gauss – a small iron magnet
2000 gauss – a small neodymium-iron-boron (NIB) magnet


Search and found the old topics which discuss Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

Mini magnetosphere radiation shielding for a manned mission

Space Radiation + counter measures

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#71 2016-08-29 18:38:19

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 15,587

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Finally found the related topic for this discussion...
Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

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#72 2016-08-30 21:01:28

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

I have noticed that this is a particular favorite of yours Spacenut.

I also see that it has gone quiet, so I will post.

Why is only half of Mars Magnetized?
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-la … /1710.html

Knowing "Why" can help is diagnose "What is it like, and what to do about it".  Otherwise I am more interested that it is like that.

Quote (From the linked article):

Mars' current magnetic field is very weak, with strengths of at most about 1500 nanotesla. Earth's, by comparison, varies up to around 65000 nanotesla, or more than 40 times stronger than Mars'.

And apparently the fossil field is in the southern hemisphere and not the north.

The loss rates are typically listed as 100 grams a second.

The loss method is said to involve the fossil magnetic fields of Mars and the solar wind.  Large chunks of atmosphere are removed when the solar wind does a reconnection with the fossil Martian fields.  See this link:
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc … plasmoids/

http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibr … dslide.jpg

I have been suspicious as to why the Martian surface pressure averages near 6 mb, the triple point of water.

I think that as the atmosphere is removed, and the pressure drops, the forces that would sublimate water from ice increase, and ice sublimates, adding water vapor to the atmosphere, where it is split by UV light.  Then the Hydrogen floats away, and Oxygen from ice eventually replaces the Oxygen in CO2, as Oxygen is removed from CO2 in the uppermost atmosphere.

So, as long as you have ice you have hopes of keeping an atmosphere on Mars.  If you terraformed the planet to warm it up, this would no longer operated, but there would be more moisture in the air, so "Water" would replenish the lost Oxygen.

So one way to keep this going would be to bring in more water, or just to not care, thinking there was enough water for human the human time scale.

But you want to protect the Martian atmosphere from the solar winds ravages, so I will go back to that.

At first it seems rational to make a planetary magnetic field which aids the existing field which exists primarily in the southern hemisphere.

At first it seems sensible to make an artificial field which aids the existing partial field, but: (From the first linked article)
[Quote:]

Mars' current magnetic field is very weak, with strengths of at most about 1500 nanotesla. Earth's, by comparison, varies up to around 65000 nanotesla, or more than 40 times stronger than Mars'.

I don't know how strong the field would have to be in that case to ward off the solar wind.  So, maybe an aiding field would make sense.

But I see that it might be worthwhile to consider instead using local opposing fields, to try to nullify the fossil fields.

Either an opposing field must be maintained, or perhaps if you are really good at it you could degauss the existing fields. (I have serious doubts about that however).

You would only do this if it suited your purposes more than creating an aiding field.  It seems to me opposing a field of 1500 nanotesla across 40% of the planet might be easier than creating an aiding field across the whole of the planet.

The result would not be perfect, but if you could do it you would possibly get rid of the major method of atmospheric losses.

I am going to make further posts that will possibly annoy you and perhaps one of our members would describe as bull droppings, but with greater verbage. smile  You can choose to ignore them if you like.  I hope this particular post shines more light on the subject.

But those links are from a while ago, perhaps Mavin has disputed the claims.  In that case I apologize for the bull droppings.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-30 21:57:42)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#73 2016-08-30 21:41:08

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Magnetic fields from brine canals.

The southern ice cap is elevated in general relative to the Martian ice cap.

I propose using a laser fired into it horizontally from the surface in the southern summer as a potential source of water.  (In an advanced Martian civilization).

Even in the present circumstances, rivers can run on Mars, if you can melt sufficient ice.  Of course they will be ice covered, and will bleed vapor to the atmosphere often.
The point being this could be the means to convey water to the magnetized portions of the southern hemisphere.

Then, perhaps you could have a canal system of brine as a conductor, used to nullify a fossil field.  By canal, I really suggest a brine pipeline.  In this case however, it would be hoped that permafrost might serve as  the water retaining floor and walls, and that you would have a covered ice layer above.  Brine is a fair conductor.  If you have a larger cross-section, then it could work as well as a metal conductor or superconductor (Except for the line losses).

But if your purpose is to nullify a fossil field and have a major water supply and have the "Canals" as habitat where you can get some kind of biological gain to suit human purposes, then it might make sense.

But superconductors are still in the running, even in my mind.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-30 21:49:09)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#74 2016-08-30 21:52:23

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Orbital Megastructure:
The two previous posts hint at scaling back the effort, in order to achieve reasonable results with less effort.

In this case, I am going to suggest a much more fantastic method.  It would have to have a fantastic payout to be worth it.

If it was decided to have a very advance space going civilization on Mars, then I suggest an orbital ring of metal with additional features.

Before I get pilloried I want to point out that this board puts up with talk about space elevators and shell worlds and so on.

If there ever are space elevators on Mars, I would like to keep them away from this orbiting ring, since if they break, the backlash might destroy the ring.

In this case, if a magnetic field were produced from the ring, it would be aiding the fossil field I would think.

I have some things to associate with the ring.  For instance tethers.  I know they break.  The longer they are the more of a loss that is, so I consider a enormous number of tethers, of shorter length, upward from the ring in the solar wind to generate electrical power.  Some tethers downward,
into the upper atmosphere to extract atmospheric gasses, and to I supposed provide some friction.

The energy to maintain orbit I hope could be primarily the expansion and contraction of the ring as it is eclipsed by the planet Mars.  Something like a split phase induction motor, already started, so the same spin direction is maintained.
Since the ring is already "Started", (Orbiting in one direction), it does not need a starting mechanism.

So, as the part of the ring in shadow contracts, it will draw mass from both directions of the ring in light.  Then that cooled portion will orbit into sunlight, fall towards the suns gravitational field, and begin to heat up.  At past noon, it is at it's warmest, it will expand, and give it's slack to the shadowed portion of the ring.  This will involve orbital energy, so perhaps I will find or be told that it will not work, but I would not be the first person to mess up here.  I think it would work. 

If it would work, then the danger is that it would collect excessive energy, which needs to be dissipated some way, or it would fly apart.

So the tethers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether

Electrodynamic tethers (EDTs) are long conducting wires, such as one deployed from a tether satellite, which can operate on electromagnetic principles as generators, by converting their kinetic energy to electrical energy, or as motors, converting electrical energy to kinetic energy.[1] Electric potential is generated across a conductive tether by its motion through a planet's magnetic field.

A number of missions have demonstrated electrodynamic tethers in space, most notably the TSS-1, TSS-1R, and Plasma Motor Generator (PMG) experiments.

*A caution some articles talk about needing a planets magnetic field to work, and some talk about using them for a starship to provide electric energy (By loosing speed), and to some degree propulsion by applying electric energy (That has some limitations it seems.

Anyway I will continue with the bull droppings. 

I will make it simple for now, until I can do more research.
The ring might acquire electric power by:
-Tether, possibly needing to impose a magnetic field excitation field from the ring (Which is intended anyway).  The movement of the solar wind relative to the tethers as generators.
-Electric difference between the plasma in the sunlight and the shadow (Very tentative thinking).

Some tethers would depend downward, and would be used to bring a plasma from the upper atmosphere up.

I need to understand how to convert that plasma to gas/liquid/solids.

Anyway, this mess is an attempt to collect electrical power from the solar wind, to create a magnetic field to protect the planet, while extracting atmosphere for space propulsion (I am thinking escaping Hydrogen).

I surely do not have sufficient completion of the idea, and it could fall apart, but it is an interesting think.

And it is definitely a mega project.

And yes, for sure with this post I am goofing.  I think some is right, maybe most, but I am prepared to learn from it crashing as well.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-30 22:56:30)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#75 2016-08-31 20:42:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,587

Re: Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere

Void, I think that you nailed all if not most of the reasons, cause as well as effect of why Mars is the way we see it today.

I see any chance for teraforming and staying without living underground or in large domes as being in step with creating a stronger magnetic field,whether its at the surface or in orbit to fend off the loss that is caused by the solar wind, strong UV and the lower level of gravity.

Sure would be nice if we had more live Mavin responses from the one which is a past newmars member posting but its been quite a while and I think it was fround on to do so as part of the probes team.

http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/maven/

The Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution mission (MAVEN) launched on November 18, 2013, and entered orbit around Mars on September 21, 2014. The mission’s goal is to explore the planet’s upper atmosphere, ionosphere, and interactions with the Sun and solar wind. Scientists will use MAVEN data to explore the loss of volatile compounds—such as CO2, N2, and H2O—from the Martian atmosphere to space. Understanding atmospheric loss will give scientists insight into the history of Mars' atmosphere and climate, liquid water, and planetary habitability.

Mavin did capture data from a comet as it passed by which really shows just how week the field of mars is....

http://www.rdmag.com/article/2016/03/co … etic-field

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