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John Creighton

Member

From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 2,401

Website

Re: What I Hate About The United States

That said, I also LOVE this country but HATE the obsessions of sex and money in our current society.

If we look at sex as something naughty, I think people will always be obsessed with it. Atleast, if you buy into what Freud said which was, “The only abnormal type of sex is no sex at all”.

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Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

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RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Heh, on one thread he castigates me for having a thread that has nothing to do with Mars, and on this one he detours a conversation from "Why (some) people hate america" to pontificating about what Freud says about "abnormal sex" being none at all, as a response to "Americans" that "obsess" over "sex".

ASTUTE observations, mein freund !  Physician Heal THYSELF !

Here's an interesting case, Doctor Freud.  As soon as someone uses the words "obsess" and "sex" in the same sentence, this-here Howler Monkey starts masturbating furiously (and in public).

Hay, I know.  Let's ask the monkey to psychoanalyze us.

LOLOLOL       

John Creighton

Member

From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Registered: 2001-09-04

Posts: 2,401

Website

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Heh, on one thread he castigates me for having a thread that has nothing to do with Mars, and on this one he detours a conversation from "Why (some) people hate america" to pontificating about what Freud says about "abnormal sex" being none at all, as a response to "Americans" that "obsess" over "sex".

ASTUTE observations, mein freund !  Physician Heal THYSELF !

Here's an interesting case, Doctor Freud.  As soon as someone uses the words "obsess" and "sex" in the same sentence, this-here Howler Monkey starts masturbating furiously (and in public).

Hay, I know.  Let's ask the monkey to psychoanalyze us.

LOLOLOL       

You are a troll for sure. Notice this thread does not have in its title anything to do with mars and I didn’t steer the thread in this direction I mealy replied once to something someone else said. Unlike you who go on and on about the same bs which has nothing to do with the topic tile you gave the tread.

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Dig into the [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/2006/12/political-grab-bag.html]political grab bag[/url] at [url=http://child-civilization.blogspot.com/]Child Civilization[/url]

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,008

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Just venting for a moment in that jobs are not being protected enough against many attempts to make businesses more profitable at the expense of the employee. The latest phase has been to heap upon those remaining at any workplace what feels like being over worked or simply doing the work of 2 people or at least 1.5. I have seen some real tough times since 9/11/01 in that 10/1/01 the electronics manufacturer notified its employees that they would be layed off in 60 days. Sure had to fight for what was rightfully mine in serverance but by time I and others got the payout it amounted to a mere 10% of what it should have been.

Then after searching for 1 year plus a week I got the same job back but this time the state did not make them take me back as a regular employee as should have been done instead I was a temporary employee of an agency. This lasted for 9 more months until again they could not do what was needed to make a profit. Spent the last 2 years doing real work again only to get it again for not living up to the owners espectation of work output. In other woulds the owner did not want an Engineering expense only something that made him money.

So now that I have set the stage in the news I read about Ford motor company:How the nonsensically named American Jobs Creation Act of 2004 allowed Ford to slash jobs while reaping huge job-creation tax benefits.

It was within this last year that GM cut many jobs as well.

It would seem that America is out of the manufracturing aspect of the business world.

Here is an example of what I mean.

A simple LED finger light that could be purchased for about $1.99 ready to use out of the package. It can not be build from the raw parts one can purchase in order to make one for less than 10 times that amount. You guessed it made in China but I do not fault them for it being so low cost. Also on this label is a US patent pending. So where is the US in the protection of its dream...

RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Read it twice, rather confusing.

Specific economies ebe & flow, the secret is to have marketable qualities that transcend a capricious economy.  In short, an education.

I gather your point is "What I hate about the United States" is a lack of concern for the casualites caused by economic downturns, which may be brought about by foreign competition.

I've been in similar situations, and the magic bullet no one ever told me was that while my particular situation was going down, others were going up.

They're always going up, somewhere.  One good indicator is how many new and newer cars you see on the road on your way to work.  SOMEONE is making money, it may as well be me.  (Or you, even.)

Part of what you may be experiencing is the disillusionment of discovering that the idea of any real "protection" is completely false.  And it is the present political administrations first (and only) priority to make sure that the previous statement is true, even where it may not be.

To quote my Mexican friend, "It's a doggy-dog world, and your wearing milkbone underwear.  (Mexican's sometimes miss the American idiom.  It's true !  And if you don't like it, well then you can take your Anger Shoes elsewhere.)

Owning your own business is a wonderful alternative, if you can afford to make the transition and have the ability to manage yourself.

I guess if I would have to point to one single factor that could be considered a government function in order to provide economic security (and thereby promote the General Welfare) is to increase (economic) access to higher education.  That one factor alone would go a long way toward offsetting whatever economic disasters may befall the american worker as a direct result of electing free-market Republicans that do believe they have a duty to care for the average american worker.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,008

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Sorry if I am a little confusing.

But to gain a higher education nowadays means you must also be able to earn a higher wage since the cost of the education is on the rise every where. Even a cheaper vocational associates degree cost more than most low income wage earners make in a year. Its is sort of a catch 22 for families wanting the most for the children these days.

My situation is one of some years towards the degree an roughly 20 plus years in the field of electronics manufacturing, product and component design. So in this case my educational level for the economical area is more than the job market is willing or unwilling to pay. Since most jobs are in the service, general labor pool and less high tech as of late for New Hampshire.

As for Foreign competition it can only be competion if you are able to provide a simular product at nearly the same costs. As I indicated by the simple LED finger light it is no longer the case. It is more that foreign nations are selling products that our current economic peoples can afford due to lower wages. Yes this does make there nations people prosperous in that htey too can obtain the dream but it does further dig the hole deeper for the poor of this great nation.

RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Yes I understand that the failure to acquire a Higher Education (and the personal economic security it affords), at some point it is "too late".

I read somewhere on this forum about how someone said the the Republicans are going about methodically dismanteling every "safety net" that protects the lower class from destitution, and as soon I as I read it I completely agreed.  It summed up a wide variety of concerns and observations that had been accumulating for years.

My previous point was, if the Republicans take everything else, but put in place the opportunity for the economically disadvanteaged to gain access to Higher Education, most of what they have done to the "old system" could be mitigated, and in some ways improved.

Rxke

Member

From: Belgium

Registered: 2003-11-03

Posts: 3,669

Re: What I Hate About The United States

That said, I also LOVE this country but HATE the obsessions of sex and money in our current society..

Coincidentally, have you read about the new Pope's first encyclical? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4645428.stm

Austin Stanley

Member

From: Texarkana, TX

Registered: 2002-03-18

Posts: 519

Website

Re: What I Hate About The United States

My problem with America is the way we are currently re-distributing our wealth.  I'm pretty strongly capatilist, and I know that inequalities in wealth are necessary for our system to work.  But this doesn't mean that a huge (and widening) gap bettwen the rich and poor is a healthy thing.  Some balance is needed.

In America that balance is fast disapearing.  Average wages are rising, but median wages are falling.  The rich are getting alot richer, and the gulf bettwen them and the rest of us is widening.  It's the goverments job at times like these to step in and take action to halt and reverse this gap.  But currently we have a goverment that is more responsive to the needs of the rich and large coporations then ever before.

This cannot continue indefinetly.  Eventualy the lowerclass will get fed-up and we will have a leftist revoltion, which I think would be a bad thing.  Think I'm crazy?  The same kind of reaction is classic in any society with such a wealth distribution, the French Revolution or the revolutions happening in Latin America.  I just hope we get a handle on it before it gets to late.

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I also worry about our goverment becoming more authoriatian, and the executive branch overeaching it's power.  But thats another rant for another day.

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He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Eventualy the lowerclass will get fed-up and we will have a leftist revoltion, which I think would be a bad thing. Think I'm crazy?

No, just wrong.  America did just fine enslaving Africans for over 400 years; slavery did not offend it's moral (or legal) sensibilities one bit.  The capacity of enslavement are part of the very fabric of this culture, and the and the social mechanisms of oppression have been improved dramatically since then.  And they are more cost effective, too.

We will always "backslide" into 2-class barbarity, and Christian Fundamentalist-Propagandists will always provide consistant theological justification that God has always intended it to be this way.

Earthfirst

Member

From: Phoenix Arizona

Registered: 2002-09-25

Posts: 343

Re: What I Hate About The United States

riz4rocket, you got one understanding of American history. First of all slavery is illegal in the USA. Lots of American lost there lives in the civil war inpart due to the issue of slavery along with the many other issue that had to be solved. Saying that that slavery still exist today in America puts down the the men that died in the civil.
As a mater of fact two of my ancestors fought in the civil war. One for the glory of the south, and the other for those no good blue bellys of the union. Are you trying to say that my ancestors deid fools? That the civil war changed nothing, that slavery is still part of the america of today!
As for the christen fundamentalist propagandist, they are the ones who wanted to free the slaves. Most other people at the time did not care about slavery, the issue was used at the time as a reason to take away political power from the south. Pre civil war big issue was if a state would become a slave state or a free state. A slave state voted democrat, while free states for republicans. As western territorys became states the issues of there slave status would decied which polical group would gain power in elections. More slaves states ment more democrat power while free states gives power to republicans.
But after many comprimises the south relized that it was better if they left the union and form there own country. At the time there was no law against states from lefthing the union and they did so. The bigest issue of the civil war was if states that entered the union could also lefth the union too. The union won so as a result states cant lefth the union today, that why like Hawaii could never lefth the union. It illegal, and the civil war was mostly about states rights vs federal rights.
Also besides being dumb in History, taste, and being a racist. You are also crazy!
You are a propangandist your self for liberalism, socialism, and anti-americanism. You hate so much of what America has stood for, that you want to destory it any ways possible, to replace it with some grand idea of socialism, or communism. Where the government controls every thing in your pathic life. All so you can live your own selfish degenerate life style of what mintal sickness I know not. But you feel that by setting an example America exposes you for what you really are, a lazy selfish fool, that cares for nothing but the gratifaction of your own sick mind and body.
If you hate America so much, then go to Canada eh, and let the people who love America enjoy it with out your dumb ideas, and complants.
En la vivo loco, mucho gusto. Como Uds. esta?

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I love plants!

RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

It's all a matter of semantics.  If you want to believe that slavery is no longer in existance in the United States because house negros and field negros no longer work for "Massa" on the plantation, then fine, go off in your limited and rather retarded understanding of the social situation.

However, some people have a desire to understand things at a level that goes a bit deeper; one with a historical perspective that allows to have a general understanding of future trends.

There exists today a system of economic slavery that is complex beyond the average person's ability to understand it, which is a direct parallel to the "black & white" situation of 150 years ago.

I live in the deep south, and rub elbows with the descendants of slave owners each and every day.  These people didn't suddenly and spontaneously "see the light", have an epiphany and realize the evil and the error of their ways.  They were drug kicking and screaming into a bare approximation of "morality", and will immediately backslide as soon as the iron fist of government relaxes in the slightest.  Which is the primary purpose of the Republican Party in it's current posture.

One of the "untold" truths of the evils of the institution of slavery is that not only does it inculcate a "slave" mentality into the oppressed class (which is an obvious evil); it also degrades the "oppressor" class on an insidious and even more evil way.

And these people are completely comfortable in their beliefs and "values", and have been bleating Christian hymns in Fundamentalist churches for centuries, with absolutely no pangs on their collective consciences.

Keeping an awareness of these cultural and social dynamics in mind, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the collective social pressure to reduce a class of people to effective slavery as been reduced one iota, no matter how many people have died in the stuggle, in what manner or to what result.  So your question has little to do with my points.

The "slave class" exists in the gaps and cracks in our economic and legal system (where has always existed) and denying this reality is the first means of perpetuating it.  The means of enslavement have gone "high tech", and are manifest in ways that can only be known by the people that go looking for them.

clark

Member

Registered: 2001-09-20

Posts: 6,362

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Riz4rocket,

Your decidedly observant, yet limited, perspective is indeed correct on a very general level. While you easily imply a shared similarity between ‘slavery’ and modern economic equivalents, you do a disservice to actual analysis and dialogue by dissecting the situation in broad strokes that do nothing to actually identify root causes or explain the actual nuances that differentiate the divergent realities.

We can be base, speak in generalities, never really saying anything. You can cry “Slavery!” Shaking your fist to the invisible ‘Massa’ as you so aptly put it; and I can cry “Freedom!” while giving you a simple finger. In both instances, what has been accomplished? Other than self-satisfaction as we reduce the debate to meaningless diatribes regarding how nothing has changed in modern day America.

The main failing point in your final analysis is the result of ignoring those facts, or perhaps it is simple ignorance, that demonstrates conclusively that the previous condition of slavery as known in America can no longer rationally be compared to the current status quo.

In large part, the history of the United States has been one of limited access to choice and opportunity. This is most notably demonstrated by the duel Slave-Master dichotomy so prevalent during colonial expansion into the new world. Similar hierarchies have been, continue to be, and will always be instituted on mankind by his fellow men. That is the nature of the beast. That is the result of instinctual hierarchical group formations that drive our social creations. The forms are familiar- Man-Woman; Parent-Child; Leader-The Led; etc. These dichotomies, these group hierarchies serve as models by which access to choice and opportunity is determined for each and every individual.

Yet, equally, the history of the United States has been one of expanding the limited access to choice and opportunity, and as a result, decreasing the disparity of equality between the social group dichotomies that are the natural result of group formation. While we still retain the vestiges of these institutions, their meaningfulness is largely reduced by social reforms that allow individuals who were once denied the opportunity to choose, to now make choices for themselves.

And please spare us all the drivel of denied opportunity based on some new economic paradigm that enforces a 21st century form of slavery or that some group or other is waiting in the wing to undo what has been done. Yes, the barbarians are at the gate and the Illuminati have a master plan.

The fact of the matter is that people who once had little control over their choices and their destiny now have control. Individuals may make choices without regard to some out dated social convention. Women may divorce and seek an independent life outside of the home. Children of criminals do not pay for their parents crimes. You yourself don’t even have to give up your bus seat to some old woman, unless of course you choose to.

The point being that inequalities still exist, and will always exist as long as two humans share the same sun beneath the same sky. The point is though that we are progressing not towards each individual having this fanciful day dream where we are all supposedly ‘equal’ but to a reality where unequal individuals have an equal opportunity to make choices for themselves.

If you or I wish to be an astronaut, what stops us? Skin color? Gender? Things that we cannot fundamentally change about ourselves? No. What stops us, what determines our choices, our failures, our success- it is education, experience, and mastery of skills. In essence, nothing stops us but our own self determination.

Those who cry ‘slavery’ loudest are often the ones who seek to blame others for their own failures, and their own weakness.

True slavery is the lack of power to affect meaningful change in ones life regarding their own life. The fact that you miss this point demonstrates, at least to me, that you are intellectually shallow, and willfully ignorant.

But then, what do I know.

RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Well, I'm not talking about "true slavery", I'm talking about it's modern day equivalent.

To illustrate:

A guy I know was at a social function, and he was referring to a recent incident where a traditional event, a "Cowboy Breakfast", was in the media due to people complaining about several items being missing from this years menu.  This is a yearly event and has been going on for decades, and it is free to the public.

The guy I know was commenting that the complaining was indicative of how "spoiled" we are as a society.  He says "When I go somewhere and get a meal for free, I say "Thank you", and do not complain."

I told him straight away that he was wrong, for the following reason.  We are Americans.  Our standards are higher.  A free meal costs almost nothing; significantly less than the cost of the gas it takes to drive to it, and less than the value of the time it takes to eat it.

The idea that food being a critical component to survival is an old one; is outdated and useless.  Yet in many cases the idea of the value of "austerity" is one form of oppression.  Having enough air, water and food (and possibly shelter) to survive is not enough anymore.  And nor should anyone that has these things be obligated to express gratitude to any God or Government because they have them in order to maintain social viability.

Yet in most conservative circles, this attitude is a prerequisite for inclusion, and anyone that thinks otherwise is a Communist to be castigated.

They too prattle on about "choices", but as you correctly observe, one cannot make choices regarding options one does not have.

It is the means of limiting these choices that I describe as the "New Slavery".

clark

Member

Registered: 2001-09-20

Posts: 6,362

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Well, I'm not talking about "true slavery", I'm talking about it's modern day equivalent.

I know what you are trying to talk about and I am disagreeing with you. I believe it is incorrect and ill advised to make any comparison between slavery as has been previously practiced as somehow equivalent to anything people experience in America today.

In one instance, you had social and cultural entrenchment of values that sought to primarily exclude as many people as possible and then use a small subset of individuals to impose a system of overt and direct oppression whereby a group was denied basic human rights and dignity; versus the reality of today where society has and is becoming more inclusive of divergent sub-groups, reaching out to marginalized groups, increasing social mobility, decreasing entrenched social inertia to provide a greater level of equal opportunity of choice to a greater range of peoples.

To somehow compare the modern day reality to the historical precedent is cheap and without any true meaning. It is buzz words slapped together, not to prove a point,, but to simply grab attention.

The guy I know was commenting that the complaining was indicative of how "spoiled" we are as a society. He says "When I go somewhere and get a meal for free, I say "Thank you", and do not complain."

I told him straight away that he was wrong, for the following reason. We are Americans. Our standards are higher. A free meal costs almost nothing; significantly less than the cost of the gas it takes to drive to it, and less than the value of the time it takes to eat it.

A free meal costs almost nothing? Profound. A free meal costs significantly less than the cost of the gas it takes to drive to it? Amazing. A free meal has less value than the time it takes to eat it? In all seriousness, what the hell is wrong with you?

I don’t know what is more disturbing, the fact that you would find what you wrote as meaningful, or the fact that I even bother to address this meaningless tripe. Your statements are wrong on so many levels, I honestly don’t know where to start.

And nor should anyone that has these things be obligated to express gratitude to any God or Government because they have them in order to maintain social viability.

And you are forced to pray to god or pledge allegiance how? Loyalty oaths? In order to maintain social viability in some circles you have to abandon god and accuse the government of every vile thing.

Around here, I believe the norm is to pledge allegiance to ‘Mars’, whatever that is.

Yet in most conservative circles, this attitude is a prerequisite for inclusion, and anyone that thinks otherwise is a Communist to be castigated.

Oh, poor baby, can’t play with the Republicans? And this is a form of slavery? This is your evidence?

They too prattle on about "choices", but as you correctly observe, one cannot make choices regarding options one does not have.

I think you miss the point I am making. Just because you can’t have a baby because you are a guy does not mean you are denied something. No one is denying you anything (other than Nature, but you figure out who to blame on that one). What choices are you denied? If you look at American history, it is one of expanding the number and scope of choices available to individuals, and expanding the range of individuals who can make those choices for themselves.

This history, our reality, is the antithesis of slavery. The only “new slavery” I see is you, to this cheap mantra that cannot pass critical analysis or realistic debate.

RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

This history, our reality, is the antithesis of slavery. The only “new slavery” I see is you, to this cheap mantra that cannot pass critical analysis or realistic debate.

"Critical Analysis" depends entirely upon the ability to reason, and the integrity and motivation of the reader.  Perhaps you lack all three ?

To wit:

A free meal costs almost nothing? Profound. A free meal costs significantly less than the cost of the gas it takes to drive to it? Amazing. A free meal has less value than the time it takes to eat it?

Perhaps I should have slowed down a bit, used more monosyllabic words and spelled out the idea of "the cost to prepare a free meal" costs "almost nothing".  To spend $25.00 in resources in order to recieve $2.00 worth of food in a time of overabundance does not obligate one to gratitude if the meal is substandard.  The social and cultural expectation that it does is one of the means of oppression.

Too often the focus of the evil of slavery is centered on the means by which the "slave class' is defined.  The modern slaves are no longer selected on the basis on the content of melanin of their skin.  So what ?  You argue against the methods of definition, not the existance of the slave class.  And by doing so you are in fact arguing in favor of other methods, while simutaneously dening the existance of the very class that your beliefs create.

You haven't used the word yet, but what you describe is commonly known as a "meritocracy".  My position is that the "merits" of the current Meritocracy are a lie, and a sham.  (This is where your notions of God are propagandized throughout the community, under the false heading of "Values".)  And it is hard-coded into the DNA of Government by the very action of the democratic process.  In short, institutionalized.

I don’t know what is more disturbing, the fact that you would find what you wrote as meaningful, or the fact that I even bother to address this meaningless tripe. Your statements are wrong on so many levels, I honestly don’t know where to start.

You can start by learning how to both read and think.

Austin Stanley

Member

From: Texarkana, TX

Registered: 2002-03-18

Posts: 519

Website

Re: What I Hate About The United States

RIZ4ROCKET, I have to admit I am having a hard time grasping your point.  Let me restate what I think, and where I think we are in disagrement.

My gripe with America is the current increase in standard of living/amount of wealth bettwen the rich and the poor in America.  Which is already large, and currently increasing. 

I think this is a bad thing, firstly because it is mildly unjust.  While some inequality is necessary for a properly functioning capatilist system, the amount we have is much greater than what is necessary.  It provides an indentive to perform and achive.  However, this does not mean that all levels of disparity are just.  The currently wealth seperation in America is reaching the point where it is unjust. Some individuales to have so much wealth (for example Bill Gates) while some other individuales have next to nothing.  Bill Gates has more money than he could every concievably use in his lifetime.  A wise man once said, "You can only eat so good."  This is especialy unfar because that wealth could be more equitably distributed without a meaningfull effect on Bill Gates (or any of the other super-wealthy).  He could literaly have several orders of magnitude less money and still be just an motivated to perform and achive.

While the unjustness is enough reason for this to be a bad thing, there are other reasons as well.  Such a unequal distribution of wealth also leads to an unequal distribution of power, especialy political power.  For a democracy, especialy a representative democracy, to perform well power must be as equaly distributed as possible.

Unequal distribution of wealth also means that money is spent less effectivly than might otherwise be possible.  Regan and his "vodoo" economics are just wrong headed.  Increasing the amount of money the wealthy has can allow them to increase their holdings and with it increase the supply of good and services, which can in turn increase the number of people employed and the rate at which they are employed and increase demand.  But even an elementry student of economics can see how this is wrong.  Demand drives an economy, not supply.  Increasing the amount of money the general public has increase the amount they can consume, which drives up supply (and thus back to demand) much more effectivly.

A greater seperation in wealth can also be linked to the larger amount of violence in 3rd world countries.  I've been to parts of Latin America, and I know first hand how this can be the case.  The wealthy (superwealthy compared to there peers) must live in armed complexes and travel with guards, because the danger from the poor is so great.  But there focus on security has not made them any more safe.  Only by increasing the pors standard of living can they remove the incentives which makes crime such an attractive option to them.  This demands solving the wealth inequities present.

This leads directly to my final point, the ultimate outcome of an increasing seperation of wealth will eventualy lead to a leftist revolution.  There are countless examples in history, and it is happening right now in Africa (Zimbabwe and even South Africa) and Latin America (Venezuela).  These revolutions are not necessarily violent.  But they DO generaly lead to the masses taking from the rich by non-economic means (legislation, capitulation, or force).  These revolutions, even the most non-violent ones, I think we can agree are thing we would wish to avoid.

In the end, wealth must be distributed fairly bettwen the rich and poor for the safety of the rich and their wealth.

-------------

Your first counter point seems to be that the US had Slavery (obviously an inequality in wealth) for a very long time, and did not lead to revolution.  Firstly this is wrong on its very face.  There were numerous slave revolts in US history and the civil war was fought over this very issue.  Second, slavery was is some ways a less widespread distribution of wealth than we see in someparts of the world today.  Slaves were a minority population, and in those times the desparity bettwen the wealthiest people and the slaves was not as great as it was today.  Even so, one could argue that the general desparity bettwen the wealth of the rich North and poor South was one of the causes of the Civil War.

The second counter point I seem to be able to draw is that modern standerds of living are high enough so that the poor have no reason to revolt.  I would first point out that this has not stopped modern revolutions in other parts of the world, despite the fact that the stanards of living are much higher now then they were in the more classical revolutionary periods.  It is the relative diffrence that is most important, not the diffrence from some arbitary "comfortable stadard of living."

The last counter point I see is that modern techniques can easily put down revolts.  Again, this has not proven to be the case in other parts of the world today, nor has it been in any time in the past.  Sometimes a revolution succedes, sometimes it does not, but the amount one side is armed does not seem to play a part. In the end, people and there motivations, not weapons, are the driving power in any revolt.  Not only manpower, but a popular revolt can drive a democratic upset, or lead a military faction to stage a coup.  Society is in the end made up of people, it is only natural for those people to make the decisions as to what sort of society they want.

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He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

clark

Member

Registered: 2001-09-20

Posts: 6,362

Re: What I Hate About The United States

"Critical Analysis" depends entirely upon the ability to reason, and the integrity and motivation of the reader. Perhaps you lack all three ?

I lack two of the three.

But I certainly believe I possess the one that you lack.

Perhaps I should have slowed down a bit, used more monosyllabic words and spelled out the idea of "the cost to prepare a free meal" costs "almost nothing".

I readily understand your statement, but I fail to understand how this trite analysis does anything to further your point. Perhaps I should talk a little slower…

If we accept your infantile argument, then we presuppose that there is a certain economic litmus test that one may apply towards those who are freely generous to others. We may then surmise that if such generosity does not meet or exceed the economic costs of our own mutual effort to take advantage of another’s generosity, then we are at liberty, and indeed should, demand redress as one who is aggrieved. In essence, you argue for a beggar complaining over what is freely given him out of pity or compassion as being ‘cheap’.

How you make the jump in conclusion that those who take advantage of another’s generosity then must show a level of gratitude as being a form of ‘slavery’ is ludicrous. It is not slavery, it is good manners. The fact that you argue as you do suggests that you are often the beggar, and hardly ever the gracious host.

You haven't used the word yet, but what you describe is commonly known as a "meritocracy". My position is that the "merits" of the current Meritocracy are a lie, and a sham.

And your position is supported by what? Wild claims and accusations? Your own personal failure?

Meritocracy is an ideal, and not a guarantee. Far more important, at least in my opinion, is the ideal of social mobility and equality of opportunity.

You can start by learning how to both read and think.

I thought about this statement after I read it. Now what?

Earthfirst

Member

From: Phoenix Arizona

Registered: 2002-09-25

Posts: 343

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Austin Staley, The civil war was all about states rights against the federal government rights. Slavery was used by the Union as cover.

Also calling capitalism to be a modern day form of slavery is an old trick of the socialist. Slavery is where a person is owned as property by an other human. The master makes the slave do work for him in extange for food and shelter. The big thing is that the slave is owned by the master and has no choice but to do what he is told. No freedom of choice, or movement, and being property is what defines a slave.

Now under capitalism people are free to make choices, they work for money, are not property, and have freedom of movement. A person working for low wages in a bad job, has the freedom to find a better job. If he was a slave he could not do what he wanted to do. If you dont like your job find another, not educated then go to shcool, get the skills and get a better job. In America no one is a slave, you are free to do what ever you want. That what is so great about America, so stop hating America because you cant make it, and stop thinking of your self as a slave.

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I love plants!

Austin Stanley

Member

From: Texarkana, TX

Registered: 2002-03-18

Posts: 519

Website

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Austin Staley, The civil war was all about states rights against the federal government rights. Slavery was used by the Union as cover.

Of course states right played a role in the civil war, but slavery was one the key reasons why the states were worried about those rights.  They feared that the North would use the majority they had just achived in the federal goverment to abolish slavery.  The civil war was also a reaction to the tariffs the North had imposed on certian goods, which harshly effected the South (who's economy was based mainly on exports).  There were a number of reasons the Civil War was fought, but slavery and the disequality bettwen the North and South were definetly among them.

Also calling capitalism to be a modern day form of slavery is an old trick of the socialist. Slavery is where a person is owned as property by an other human. The master makes the slave do work for him in extange for food and shelter. The big thing is that the slave is owned by the master and has no choice but to do what he is told. No freedom of choice, or movement, and being property is what defines a slave.

Don't put words in my mouth.  I never said this, and I don't belive it.  My argument is that an unhealthy disparity in the wealth of the rich and poor is a bad thing and can eventualy lead to a leftist revolution.  I think such a revolution would be a bad thing, so we should strive to avoid it.

Now under capitalism people are free to make choices, they work for money, are not property, and have freedom of movement. A person working for low wages in a bad job, has the freedom to find a better job. If he was a slave he could not do what he wanted to do. If you dont like your job find another, not educated then go to shcool, get the skills and get a better job. In America no one is a slave, you are free to do what ever you want. That what is so great about America, so stop hating America because you cant make it, and stop thinking of your self as a slave.

Let me set the record straight, I am not a communist/socialists.  I firmly belive in Capatilisim and Democracy.  Furthermore, capatilisim has been fairly good to me.  I recently recieved a $50,000 windfall because a large coporation purchased an chemical milling system improvment that I had a hand in developing.  I am pretty secure in my place in the middle class.  However, I have also been abroad, particularly to parts of Latin America and have seen the results of a capatilist system that gets out of control.  I do not want to have to live in an armed complex or higher a bodyguard because of fear of the poor, which is a fact of life in those areas.  This is what leads to my worries about America.

That said, I do take some issues with some of your points in your last paragraph.  We are very free here in America, but that does not mean everyone is free to make ANY economic decision they would like to.  Not everyone is intellegent enough to go to college.  Some idiots are born into vast quanitites of wealth (Paris Hilton).  I would never be a good mechanic, and my mechanic would probably never be a good lawyer.  Such is life, we are not all equal in our apptitudes and abilities, and so the station is life we end up with is not equal.

Nor is the economic system completely fair.  As long as capital has existed there have been people who try and abuse the rules to there profit and everone elses detriment.  Trusts, monopolies, price fixing, labor laws, ect.. have all been used in the past and present by the wealthy to secure their wealth and get even more of it.  The also use their capital to buy the lawmakers and use the goverment to help secure their position.  This is another battle we constatly face to ensure that capitilisim truely is fair.

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He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

It's a difficult thing to put into words, so that people that only understand words can understand.

Let me try this:

In some cases, there is no direct translation between spanish and english.  It has been said that in some cases, spanish is a superior language because it allows one to express things that simply cannot be expressed in English.  The language itself becomes the impediment for expression and communication of certain ideas or sentiments.

But incapability of language to allow the expression of certain ideas does not therefore mean that they do not exist.

This notion acts as a gateway to potential notions that do not yet exist within the human awareness.  And the validity of the notion is supported by the following political axiom:

"When you control the language, you control the debate."  Beyond the false dichotomy of (for example) "Pro-Life" vs. "Pro-Choice", the attempts at controlling the language by both sides preclude even the possiblity that a viable solution, acceptable by the vast majority, of being implemented.

Furthermore, 100 years ago no one had even a remote idea of what "communism", "socialism" or "collectivism" might be, and today the words are thrown around by grubby men drinking beer from aluminum cans all over the planet.

I assert that there is a social need for a word to describe the current state of social and cultural circumstances.  This condition exists whether clark has motivation, integrity or the ability to reason, and a word to describe this condition is necessary because I said it is.  And that's all the authority anyone needs.

I choose to call this condition "slavery", as a great many components of the slave condition are directly paralleled in what should now be a "more enlightened" age.

Instead, I find these conditions "explained away" by stoop-shouldered NeoCons gibbering about "choices" and "God", as if somehow their blabbering the words of their tenuous "explanation" is the only effort their God requires of them.

And they (like clark) believe it should be good enough for you, too.

Furthermore, the word "slavery" also directly challenges many of these money-grubbing retards other "feel good" social and political banners, namely "freedom" (as THEY define it) and all the things other people ought (as good americans) to be willing to sacrifice in the defence of it.

We should sacrifice (as we once understood it) "freedom" in order to preserve "freedom" as we are now given to understand it.

And if clark doesn't like what I am doing to his favorite word "slavery", I am sure will also fail to appreciate what I have to say about his OTHER favorite word (and it's new definition), "freedom".

"Just because the world is new to me, does not mean that I am new to the world."

This is nothing new.  In fact, much of this is older than the roots of the current american political "philosophy".

I'm to lazy to look up the credit, but wasn't it a 17th century French philosopher that said:

"The law, in it's egalitarian majesty, forbids the rich as well as the poor from begging in the streets for bread."

My opinion of the American "slave" era is that it was the obvious differences in skin color and facial features that allowed the American Government to sustain the institution of slavery.  The institution had popular "support" because the average citizen could always tell exactly who was who.  Which is why "mixed race" people were always considered to be of the slave (or in later years, the substandard) class.

It made things easier for the non-slaves to differentiate.

Today, slavery has gone "high-tech", and the discriminators and "filters" are hard-coded via DNA technology, and stored on vast computer databases controlled by non-slaves, and the application of this data will span across generations forevermore.

Earthfirst

Member

From: Phoenix Arizona

Registered: 2002-09-25

Posts: 343

Re: What I Hate About The United States

RIZ4ROCKET: Como estia, homes
Your point about Spanish being a better language than English is false. First English is a great Language that allows the writer to express most everything that comes to his head. English is also great at envinting new words, for ideas and objects that in the past had no word for it meaning. Spanish is a wierd language where they have lots of verb ending changes to express its meaning, which is darn hard to learn. English does what spanish does with only two extra ending to words: ed for past, and ing for actions. Spanish is messed up, and is not worth learning.
I think that English is the best Language on the Earth today!

Also saying that slavery still exist today is an insalt to my ancestors that died in the civil war!

Austin Stanley: I get what you are saying, Capitalism is never fair. It's a system based on animal nature, and humans being of an animal body work best in that form of society. But humans have a soul given to us by the lord, this soul tell us that just living in a state of nature is wrong. We most help our fellow humans so that they too can make it. Try a little kindness, to fight the narrow minded street.
This is where humanism comes in, Capitalism is harsh towards the weak. So in a loving society they most be protected. To what extent society helps the weak makes that society what it is. A primary capitalist country will make some laws to protect people, and give some charity from private or government sources. The US is that, Their is no pure capitalist country. A socialist or communisty country will help out a lot, to do this the government own all major industries, and transportation means. A socialist country will allow some private ownership, but has high taxes so that it can give it to the poor or lazy. In communisty state, the state owns everything including the people, all wages are the same. A janitor makes the same as a Doctor. The rich don't exist, all money has been taken and given out equally. Ofthen the only with good thing are party members, and any descent is harshly delt with. Slave labour camps, mass murders, and other horriable things.

Capitalism can be harsh, but when the uneducated poor take over, a demand that every one be equal that is the time to go to another nation.[/quote]

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I love plants!

RIZ4ROCKET

Banned

Registered: 2006-01-10

Posts: 54

Re: What I Hate About The United States

Also saying that slavery still exist today is an insalt to my ancestors that died in the civil war!

Well your dead ancestors that died brilliantly and heroicly in blazes of glory, fallen martyrs of whatever cause it was that was considered important enough to die for are dead now, anyways, and so the sting of being "insalted" by my diatribic tripe should be muted by now.

Earthfirst

Member

From: Phoenix Arizona

Registered: 2002-09-25

Posts: 343

Re: What I Hate About The United States

The South shall rise, and make the yankies pay!
Trabajan homes.

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I love plants!

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,008

Re: What I Hate About The United States

RIZ4ROCKET is sort of right in that a form of slavery does exist but it is not of race or color persay for it crosses the boundary of both. It is the working poor, forced to live as best that they can until they get out if ever possible. It may take even generation in some cases to dig there way to a better life.