Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

dryson · 2007-11-07 21:11:26

just doing some research and i decided to make it roughly the same size as a city bus (100" wide/tall by 40' long) that submarine is 50' long and 96" in diameter, so mine will end up being 120" shorter than that sub (still able to cary along a towed unit) but the same size in diameter.
As far as getting the vehicle there, it can technically be assembled out there (not very hard to do)
and it isn't like that shutle needs to be manned so you can send it out there ahead of time and all...
the motors on the vheicle could be a temporary power source for the camp till things are setup for more permanent use.

Oaky lets slow do and start doing the number crunching on the rover.

First we will need to know the weight of each major component.

major components would be:

1.The engine block
2.Axles and Tires (would also include shocks, struts or other cushioning
system)
2a.For the shock absorbtion system I have a theoretical design
that uses magnets. That can be discussed later on if warranted.
3.The structural tubing (interior frame)
4.Hull plating (exterior covering)
4a. The mathametical calculations will be failry easy once a
determination has been made on how thick the tubing and hull will be
along with the length of each individual tubing and what each hull
plating will be.

secondary components would be:

1.Crew compartment - To make life simpler, the design I suggest using
is the the new Orion model [url]
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/const … rion_contr
act_images.html[/url]. This model when reconfigured to accomodate four
naughts instead of six would make one of the most important parts of the rover complete without having to even brainstorm to much.
2. EVA suit up area - If we look at the foreward section of the Orion we
can see the EVA hatch. A similiar set-up would be used for this design
since the design has already been proven to work and not much re-
work would be involved in placing it in another location.

tertiary components would be:

1.Life system system including computer operating systems and
ventilation (circulation to keep the atmosphere fresh and not stale)

2.Comm system including wiring paths and antenneas

3.Waste management system for a three day venture ( I would just step
outside and go, but this system wouldnt be very applicable for the
female naught as there are not any bushes. anyway)

This should maybe take a year or so to complete once we sit down and
start compiling the data.

I have starter another post called ROVER LAUNCH VEHICLE.

This post will be in conjuction with the Rover Vehicle.

Dragoneye · 2007-11-08 10:21:04

for the motor, figure about 20lbs each and there are about 1/3 of the vehicle is designated to motors (my custom designed motors) so figure about 13-14 motors on there. so thats roughly 280lbs

the frame could be done out of composits if need be (much lighter and could be almost as strong as the other meathod) i'll figure on the heavy side that each main ring will weigh 25lbs and i'll have it spaced about 1 every foot for the length of the vehicle (i'm going over board here on the weight but i want to make sure to have plenty extra for payload) so that comes out to 1,000lbs, we'll up that to about 1,300 for misc suspension bracing, and any other kind of strange thing to come up.

suspension usually weighs a lot so i'll say about another 200lbs

wheels are much larger than the average car (40lbs with tire and wheel typically) so well go with 3-4 x what that weight is and thats about 150 each but my wheels will weigh a lot less with new design principals in it (need big wheels for scaling over rocks with less problems and to increase clearance) so 300lbs for all 4

electrical motors to drive the vehicle (all wheel drive) figure another 150lbs each +600lbs

after that its all drive components but it would be all done by wire so i'll say another 300lbs in computers and sensors

equiptment payload another 800lbs

shell/body will be alot too so add about 600lbs

so far we are at 4,080lbs. which isn't too bad considering its an enclosed transport.

Oaky lets slow do and start doing the number crunching on the rover.
First we will need to know the weight of each major component.
major components would be:
1.The engine block
2.Axles and Tires (would also include shocks, struts or other cushioning
system)
2a.For the shock absorbtion system I have a theoretical design
that uses magnets. That can be discussed later on if warranted.
3.The structural tubing (interior frame)
4.Hull plating (exterior covering)
4a. The mathametical calculations will be failry easy once a
determination has been made on how thick the tubing and hull will be
along with the length of each individual tubing and what each hull
plating will be.
secondary components would be:
1.Crew compartment - To make life simpler, the design I suggest using
is the the new Orion model [url]
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/const … rion_contr
act_images.html[/url]. This model when reconfigured to accomodate four
naughts instead of six would make one of the most important parts of the rover complete without having to even brainstorm to much.
2. EVA suit up area - If we look at the foreward section of the Orion we
can see the EVA hatch. A similiar set-up would be used for this design
since the design has already been proven to work and not much re-
work would be involved in placing it in another location.
tertiary components would be:
1.Life system system including computer operating systems and
ventilation (circulation to keep the atmosphere fresh and not stale)
2.Comm system including wiring paths and antenneas
3.Waste management system for a three day venture ( I would just step
outside and go, but this system wouldnt be very applicable for the
female naught as there are not any bushes. anyway)
This should maybe take a year or so to complete once we sit down and
start compiling the data.
I have starter another post called ROVER LAUNCH VEHICLE.
This post will be in conjuction with the Rover Vehicle.

dryson · 2007-11-08 16:38:55

so lets figure the vehicle at 20,000 lbs to be on the safe side for the time being.

Dragoneye · 2007-11-08 16:42:48

so lets figure the vehicle at 20,000 lbs to be on the safe side for the time being.

wow thats alot... i designed the frame to be light weight... i couldn't see it weighing a total weight over 10,000lbs tops...

dryson · 2007-11-08 17:05:58

I think I may have found a solution to the whole problem we are facing here.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/167126main_Tran … istics.pdf

You will have to download the pdf file but its worth it. I would make a folder called D & D Rover Project ( Dragoneye and Dryson Enterprises)
put the pdf in there and go from there.

If you look at the MPLM and the particulars we may have a potential winner. I like the interior size and the length. Two of these MPLM's docked together would give the crew more then enough area to house some racks for sack time, research, comm, medical ,waste management and more then enough storage space.

Dragoneye · 2007-11-08 17:23:32

I think I may have found a solution to the whole problem we are facing here.
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/167126main_Tran … istics.pdf
You will have to download the pdf file but its worth it. I would make a folder called D & D Rover Project ( Dragoneye and Dryson Enterprises)
put the pdf in there and go from there.
If you look at the MPLM and the particulars we may have a potential winner. I like the interior size and the length. Two of these MPLM's docked together would give the crew more then enough area to house some racks for sack time, research, comm, medical ,waste management and more then enough storage space.

very nice, yea it would be nice to be able to simply send it up there in parts then assemble it on the surface there along with alot of spare parts so if anything breaks then your still fine and you know how its assembled.

dryson · 2007-11-09 17:43:30

The MPLM could be sent up as one unit. There wouldn't be any need to assemble it on the surface except for maybe adding the tires.If NASA is able to come up with a way to design the vehicle that once the cargo container has parachuted to Mars and would then be able to be rolled out one end ,waiting for the naughts to arrive. Then we have a winner

Dragoneye · 2007-12-21 16:31:02

ok, after alot of work on the motors it looks like they wont take up 1/2 the space i thought they would... i'll be able to fit everything in a much smaller compartment and we'll have WAY more room for anything we want to do in there.

X · 2008-01-14 00:36:15

I've been thinking about something for a while now. Hopefully in the near future I'll have the time to figure out if its feasible and economic. If so I hope to build a prototype.

Dragoneye · 2008-01-14 11:20:55

I've been thinking about something for a while now. Hopefully in the near future I'll have the time to figure out if its feasible and economic. If so I hope to build a prototype.

Thanks for the bump, ill be testing out my motor in my race car to see how it works for prolonged use.

X · 2008-01-14 12:12:50

Hopefully it goes well!

SpaceNut · 2008-03-20 12:38:26

For those that have a vehicle registered as of Feb 1,University Rover Challenge

The Challenge:
For the second year, teams of university students will design and build the next generation of Mars rovers.
June 5-7, 2008 the teams and their rovers will face off at the Mars Desert Research Station in Utah.
The Prize:
The winning team will win transportation, lodging and admission for 5 team members to the
11th Annual International Mars Society Convention in Boulder, CO August 14-17, 2008, and large cash prizes.

Dragoneye · 2008-03-20 12:44:07

For those that have a vehicle registered as of Feb 1,University Rover Challenge
The Challenge:
For the second year, teams of university students will design and build the next generation of Mars rovers.
June 5-7, 2008 the teams and their rovers will face off at the Mars Desert Research Station in Utah.
The Prize:
The winning team will win transportation, lodging and admission for 5 team members to the
11th Annual International Mars Society Convention in Boulder, CO August 14-17, 2008, and large cash prizes.

damn, wish i knew about this sooner... not that i'm in a university currently...

i'm still working on the frame for my test vehicle so i wont have the time to get it all finished by then yet.

elderflower · 2016-08-13 05:32:35

you need two units, each able to accommodate both crews so that rescues could be effected should one of them fail or be irreversibly damaged in an accident.

SpaceNut · 2016-08-13 17:56:53

We have sort of talked about this in several other topics and in the nuclear rover as well. One requirement is the limits of what constitutes a days trip distance and all supplies for a full crew but when we are driving in pairs we will only use half of those supplies when sized for the full crew usesage for the margin of safe of a days extension depending on the issue. One would hope that we could tow the disabled vehicle in order to not loss the redundancy which the crew will needs back to the base camp in order to affect repairs.

elderflower · 2016-08-19 12:41:08

Range depends mainly on power available. If it is truly abundant an aircraft of some type, or maybe a rocket powered hopper, becomes possible. Then you could go hundreds of kilometres.
If you are confined to surface vehicles a fuel cell, or heat engine would probably give you a range of a few days, but then you need to carry supplies for the crews for longer duration trips. Use of moderately high concentration peroxide as power source would give usable oxygen and water in the engine exhaust so could reduce tankage for these. Batteries need a huge step up in capacity to compete with a tank full of chemicals.
Ground rovers might achieve maybe 20 km per hour going out and a bit more returning if following the same track ( so less need to recce before the vehicles) so a three day trip is about 200 km with a limited amount of science included, if the rovers are the accommodation. If crews need to make camp the range is reduced because of restricted time. Depots, as used in polar exploration on earth, could extend this range.
Supplies for both crews would be needed in each rover, but only for the return trip to base, and the emergency part would only get used in the event of inability to transfer supplies from a failed vehicle to a functional one. So the extra supplies don't need to meet the full requirements of an active crew.
Given a supply of peroxide or other suitable rocket fuel a pair of hoppers seems very attractive, to me. It gives much better mobility and range than a pair of ground rovers. Drawback is that it can't pull a trailer full of rocks or ice.

kbd512 · 2016-09-02 23:47:30

Dragoneye,

Basic Design:

No off-road vehicle is going to last for a year without serious maintenance if it's moving across the surface of Mars at 100kph+. That doesn't work very well here on Earth where obtaining oxygen, food, and water isn't nearly as much of a problem as it is on Mars.

Awhile back, I proposed delivering four M113A4's / MTVL's to Mars. Initially, this surface exploration vehicle concept was to use a small 100kWe fission reactor powering 2 40kW electric motors for a top speed of approximately 50kph. I determined that an exotic fuel (Am242) was required to reduce the diameter of the core to a point where the weight of the shielding mass would be within the volume and mass allocated for the vehicle's power subsystem.

* All vehicles capable of tele-robotic operation from Earth, the orbiting MTV, and other MTVL's using communications satellite orbiting Mars
* Two separate pressurized compartments - A heavily shielded driver's compartment near the reactor, occupied only when required, and a lower radiation environment cargo / living compartment where the astronauts would spend most of their time
* Rear ramp hatch instead of a traditional airlock, similar to the original M113's rear ramp
* Sit-down shower
* Miniature flush toilet
* Galley
* Refrigerated food storage
* All-in-one miniature washer and dryer
* Stowage for a quarter of the consumables (food, air, water) for a nominal 500 day surface stay for a crew of four
* Option to give each astronaut their own vehicle (and thus personal space if any personality conflicts arose during the surface stay or outbound voyage from Earth; unlikely, but possible) or to pair them up for human companionship (very desirable so long as everyone gets along with each other)
* Each vehicle would be equipped with CL-ECLSS to minimize oxygen and water losses, but would also use equipment to obtain oxygen from Martian CO2 and water from the Martian regolith to replenish inevitable oxygen and water losses from EVA's, personal hygiene, and human waste products
* External air and power connections and hoses for vehicle maintenance

Concept of Operations:

I intended to deliver the astronauts to the surface individually using micro capsules (substantially smaller and lighter than Mercury) and parachutes. I think that's the best way to do it, if feasible. The MTVL's arrive ahead of the astronauts, ring the landing area as the MTV arrives, and then run down the individual micro capsules as each astronaut parachutes to the surface. After astronaut recovery has been completed, the two MTVL crews perform vehicle checkouts to assure the vehicles are in satisfactory condition before surface exploration begins. The two unoccupied (hopefully) MTVL's contain laboratory equipment for samples analysis and a drill for obtaining core samples.

The MTVL's were to constantly rove the surface for the duration of the surface mission, stopping at regular intervals to collect samples. The general idea was that the surface exploration missions were intended to select the best sites for follow-on bases or colonies.

Mobility:

Tracked vehicles are better for operating in off-road environments than wheeled vehicles. Simple physics don't change, even in the lower gravity Martian environment. The internal vehicle volume available for a given weight vehicle will also be greater for tracked vs wheeled vehicles. The tracks would be composed of a rubber compound with a low glass transition temperature and good radiation resistance. The tracks and road wheels would contain embedded heating elements to survive the mildly cryogenic Martian nights. On the surface of Mars, mobility is life.

Chassis:

M113 APC's are made from 5083 aluminum alloy that was originally developed for cryogen storage in space flight applications. In other words, the material should retain its mechanical properties on the frigid surface of Mars. If the surface exploration vehicle requires long term durability and the capability to withstand thousands of pressurization / depressurization cycles, then aluminum alloys are the best and only proven choice. There are certain applications for which titanium alloys are well suited, but pressure vessels subject to constant abrasion and impacts with the surface of a rocky planet are not amongst them. Instead of a spall liner, PE fabrics would line the interior of the vehicle for additional radiation protection from GCR's. In testing, it provided almost as much protection from GCR's as pure HDPE for a fraction of the weight.

Power:

After further review of the potential power options for this vehicle in the intervening time, I decided that a fission reactor was unnecessary in light of recent developments in lattice-enabled nuclear reactions. I don't know exactly how it works, but thus far no one has been able to prove that it doesn't work. A DoD-associated entity has paid for a demonstration unit and has been satisfied that the unit works as advertised. As more and more scientists and engineers accept the fact that these devices actually work, their development and use will only accelerate.

Propulsion:

A couple of small, high-torque electric motors are all that's required for normal surface operations. Traveling at high speed ,off-road, on the surface of a planet tens of millions of miles from Earth is simply not a prudent course of action. If the crew manages to breach the pressure hull, even a pair of suited astronauts waiting outside to repair the vehicle the moment that happens may not be able to save the crew inside the damaged vehicle before loss of pressurization kills them. In real life, pressurization and depressurization does not work the same way it does in Hollyweird movies.

Here on Earth, high off-road speeds also tend to be good for damaging axles and throwing tracks. If you roll the vehicle, even if the occupants inside were not injured (unlikely), the vehicle does not depressurize (let's assume), and righting the vehicle is as easy as hooking winch to the another vehicle and giving it a tug (highly unlikely), how do you intend to repair the damage (typically doesn't happen at the scene of the accident here on Earth)?

Life Support:

A rock solid CL-ECLSS solution is the real enabler for any long duration space exploration mission. Unfortunately, NASA has poured so much of its available funding into unnecessary mega rockets and mega capsules, neither of which is likely to meaningfully contribute to a manned mission to Mars, that little funding is available for our only real technology gap. Our current power production and storage capabilities are entirely adequate, our rockets are reliable enough and powerful enough, and the ISS has survived in a virtual shooting gallery of space debris for more than a decade.

Parting Thoughts:

Ask yourself what utility each feature provides, how those features affect vehicle mass and dimensions and overall usability, and the feasibility of actually transporting your vehicle to the surface of another planet using existing commodity rockets. Smaller and lighter is generally better. Vehicle durability without excessive or complicated maintenance practices is of paramount importance. Tasks that seem pretty simple here on Earth, such as changing a tire, become substantially more difficult inside a space suit. For example, an electric motor that powers the vehicle should require nothing more complicated than removing it from its mount and unplugging to replace it and no more specialized tools than a torque wrench.

If at all possible, all the bolts in the vehicle should have the same head diameter so the same tool can be used to remove an electric motor, ECLSS unit, water tank, food storage bin, battery mount, etc. All the electronics and wiring should be user accessible and plug-n-play. On that note, minimize wiring. I designed the layout of my vehicle to put the water tanks on the floor and all the electronics above the floor. The water tanks would have helped with minimizing GCR effects by being mounted on the top of the cargo compartment, but I judged keeping anything that could short out (and potentially cause a fire) above the water tanks as being more important than the minimal and unavoidable health effects from slightly more radiation exposure.

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#26 2007-11-07 21:11:26

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#27 2007-11-08 10:21:04

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#28 2007-11-08 16:38:55

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#29 2007-11-08 16:42:48

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#30 2007-11-08 17:05:58

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#31 2007-11-08 17:23:32

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#32 2007-11-09 17:43:30

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#33 2007-12-21 16:31:02

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#34 2008-01-14 00:36:15

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#35 2008-01-14 11:20:55

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#36 2008-01-14 12:12:50

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#37 2008-03-20 12:38:26

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#38 2008-03-20 12:44:07

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#39 2016-08-13 05:32:35

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#40 2016-08-13 17:56:53

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#41 2016-08-19 12:41:08

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

#42 2016-09-02 23:47:30

Re: Who would be intrested? -Design a set of vehicles for mars-

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