Terraforming Titan - Fate of Methane Atmosphere?

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-03 12:48:13

Mars can easily be Caeliformed, but not Terraformed.
On a caeliformed Mars you can walk around without a face mask, but gravity would still be very low, people would live underground and H20 oceans would dry up over geological periods. The air would be fairly dry and water would be a valuable commodity.

Well hot damn! We all agree on the possibility of making Mars habitable. See, all this bickering over semantics for nothing.

karov · 2004-06-03 15:25:21

I agree that for practical reasons we should accept the term "terraforming" as just a technical ONE WORD sleng -- a common denominator for infinite variety of designs and techs and results -- for "making habitable" of any environment.

Otherwise we`ll drown in a sea of more and more "accurate" terms...

atitarev · 2004-06-03 20:22:13

Hi Karov, welcome on board!

I can see you're from Bulgaria. I am Russian living in Australia. I like your posts, optimism, which I share and I also read the papers on the quick terraforming, spinning and moving planets. The papers were written some time ago and there were no updates. Pity, the guy is not part of this forum. Should we invite him? He could contribute a lot.

mbastion · 2004-06-04 00:58:49

Hi,

>for practical reasons we should accept the term "terraforming"

I disagree. We need a second word to clearly differentiate between the two ideas, which to date have cause the most heated arguements.

Of all the ideas that I've read so far. We'll need 3 terms.
*Terraforming: to describe modifying a planet to be earth-like
*Caeliforming: to describe modifying an atmosphere to be habitable for humans.
*plus a third term to describe the genetic manipulation of the human genome to survive in hostile or non-earth-like environments.

Three is the most we should need for a long while to come.

Michael
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html

karov · 2004-06-04 06:10:06

Hi Karov, welcome on board!
I can see you're from Bulgaria. I am Russian living in Australia. I like your posts, optimism, which I share and I also read the papers on the quick terraforming, spinning and moving planets. The papers were written some time ago and there were no updates. Pity, the guy is not part of this forum. Should we invite him? He could contribute a lot.

Hi Anatolii!

It is wonderfull idea Paul Birch to be invited here in this forum!!!

His contribution will fill a great gap in the enormous field of the theory and design of the "dinamic compression members" = "kinethic structures", which I`m sure have so big potential that no terraforming effort could be successfull wihout this technology. You see that almost all of us are more inclined to envision rather static structures used--entirelly dependant on the internal tension and compression strength of the materials used, i.e. very often a concept is condemned to be impossible, qualified as demanding materials with fantastic properties.

(Another necesarry here guy in this line of thoughts is, I think, Forrest Bishop:

http://www.iase.cc]www.iase.cc)

BTW, regarding your family name -- don`t you have some roots in Volga Bulgaria?

karov · 2004-06-04 06:27:15

Of all the ideas that I've read so far. We'll need 3 terms.
*Terraforming: to describe modifying a planet to be earth-like
*Caeliforming: to describe modifying an atmosphere to be habitable for humans.
*plus a third term to describe the genetic manipulation of the human genome to survive in hostile or non-earth-like environments.
Three is the most we should need for a long while to come.
Michael
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html

It`s obvious that we can not define in absolute sence any terms here. In that line of epistemological taxonomy it`s very easy to be proved, based on your oun logic, that indeed much more terms have to be coined to describe and settle the related items. NO planet could be "terraformed" in your strict sence. They all shall differ greatly from Earth. The Earth itself offers quite diverse environments in space and time. If we replicate the conditions of Mount Everest in midnigh somewhere -- is it terraforming? Or the conditions of the deep ocean trenches? The climates existed hundred of millions of years ago? Sahara worst points? Winter Antarctica?

"terraforming" ALREADY means generaly -- meliorating an environment in parameters livable/habitable by humans -- no mater what environment it is -- naked planetary surface, asteroid/cometary nuklei cavity, the face of supra-planetary shell, entirelly from-scratch biult in open space rotating tube structure...

It is entirelly out of the "marketing" abilities of a single person to replace the slang meaning of a term nested long ago in the social consciousness, no matter how tempting is this effort.

Remember that even the first mentioner of "terraforming" (Olaf Stapledon?) expanded the term use also to improving parts of the earth`s surface.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-06-04 06:42:09

A very sensible and intelligent post, Karov. It's impossible to disagree with such logic.

karov · 2004-06-04 06:48:53

About Titan`s athmosphere carbohydrates content:

I don`t know the overal absolute quantity responding in metric tones to these several percents, but the carbon needs of a mature ecosystem, it seems could swallow it entirelly (together with purelly abiotic technological processes for ice-crust reinforsing, termal isolation, CO2 release, etc.).

Also, the same way as on Earth, these "fuels" could be stored underground (or "undercover" if we put a planetary "blancet") in artificial analog of our petrochemical deposits.

Having finally or during the overall terraformig process non-carbohydrated athmosphere, we could chose the temperature and other parameters...

atitarev · 2004-06-05 07:25:48

Hi Karov, welcome on board!
I can see you're from Bulgaria. I am Russian living in Australia. I like your posts, optimism, which I share and I also read the papers on the quick terraforming, spinning and moving planets. The papers were written some time ago and there were no updates. Pity, the guy is not part of this forum. Should we invite him? He could contribute a lot.
Hi Anatolii!
It is wonderfull idea Paul Birch to be invited here in this forum!!!
His contribution will fill a great gap in the enormous field of the theory and design of the "dinamic compression members" = "kinethic structures", which I`m sure have so big potential that no terraforming effort could be successfull wihout this technology. You see that almost all of us are more inclined to envision rather static structures used--entirelly dependant on the internal tension and compression strength of the materials used, i.e. very often a concept is condemned to be impossible, qualified as demanding materials with fantastic properties.
(Another necesarry here guy in this line of thoughts is, I think, Forrest Bishop:
http://www.iase.cc]www.iase.cc)
BTW, regarding your family name -- don`t you have some roots in Volga Bulgaria?

No, Karov, I have nothing to do with Volga Bulgarians, rather Kuban or Don Cossacks, as for the origin of my surname. (It's better to discuss these things in private messages )

I'll send Paul Birch an email if it's there.

karov · 2004-06-06 08:52:39

Thanx in advance for your effort to invite Burch. Excuse me for the origin question. Further I`d send you private messages on such topics.

atitarev · 2004-06-06 16:24:49

Thanx in advance for your effort to invite Burch. Excuse me for the origin question. Further I`d send you private messages on such topics.

No problem at all, Karov. It's just an offtopic. I'm pretty busy these days but will read all the new posts on terraformation and will email Paul B. some time this week.

Alexander Sheppard · 2004-06-07 15:46:07

It seems to me that it would be a great pity to destroy such unique places when one can engineer forms of consciousness which would thrive in the unmodified enviornment.

karov · 2004-06-07 17:03:48

Let`s talk about the value and advantages of the pre-terraformed Titan.
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No doubt Titan, as it is now, is the most hospitable world in the solar system. That means that minimum of the natural human phenotype extention via attaching artefacts to the body is necessary. I mean all portable and stationary life support equipment which a human being needs to survive on other celestial body. On Titan, it seems, that we`ll need the lightest and most unsophisticated tools to ensure ability and standart of living. I think -- even on the 50-es technological level. There could be posted quite volumous essay, but I have no time to arrange all the stuff and ideas, so:
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1. The surface presure is 1.5 Bars. That is equal to 5 meters under water on Earth. An atmospheric presure under which human could live a whole life without harm. So, Titan is the only place off-earth where non-presurized biuldings could be made.The air out is very cold, >90% N2 + carbohydrates. The air in (under the SAME presure) is warmed, O2 added up to the physiological partial presure, minus the carbohydrates. This resembles more to airconditioning than to sealed-presurised completely isolated life-support on Mars, Moon or wherever... The same is the situation conserning the personal siuts (covering the whole body termo-clothes, with mask, gloves... + bottles with O2 -- a system simpler than the earth`s deep-dive equipment), the ground, air, and liquid-going vehicles and vessels passenger compartments life support. NO space-siuts. NO radiation protection.
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2. Mentioning the transport: The old fashioned internal combustion, jet engines and other chemical motors could be used almost unchanged here. With the only difference that they`ll have to bear the Oxidizer (O2) in their board tanks, and the fuel comes from the outside (in the air - the several percents of methan content, or for the ships - oceans of fuel, if oceans exist). With this quite low escape velocity of Titan, mere jet-planes burning the atmosphere`s metan with onboard oxigen, could serve as surface-to-orbit reusable shuttles. Smaller wings, and easier vertical take off with this weak gravity + high air dencity.
The production and supply of O2 should be as important as the petrol industry, nowadays, here on earth. O2 could be prodused, say, by water electric dissociation. The electricity ( in order the Titan economics not to relly upon import of fissible material (uranium, plutonium, thorium), the undiscovered local sources of them or non-achieved techs like fusion, or on deep-deep "geo"thermal sources...) could be imported from space via Titan-Saturn system`s L1&L2 beanstalk`s cables, produced by photovoltaics from little soleta concentrated light. (The soleta starts as small as to hardly cover the minimal innitial requirements for started colony, and gradually is grown until it could begin to implement terraforming functions...)
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3. Water ice under this cold, makes perfect mass biulding material for cities (properly isolated from the internal heat), roads, ports, etc.
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Pleace, proceed... and comment!

karov · 2004-06-08 01:11:26

It seems to me that it would be a great pity to destroy such unique places when one can engineer forms of consciousness which would thrive in the unmodified enviornment.

Thriving of any living form , i.e. establishing of even not-terresstrial type of BIOSPHERE, shall lead to modification of any environment.

In that sence it doesn`t matter whether earth-type or alternative-life-base biosphere is introduced. In all thinkable cases the natural dead environment changes in dinamic alive one, hence "spoiled" and "poluted". An irrevocable attribute of life is polution and enthropy increase. Here or there.

But we could live there unmodified without grand scale terraforming, preserving the major part of the natural cold beauty of these distant worlds in great degree. Look at my previous post in this thread and comment, please.

The other objection is that if the human-units modification is irreversible - do we want to create aliens? Aliens which the same way as we would be confined in single world. The worlds die in geological and cosmological timescales. If we as species or group of species` descendants want to survive longer that, we should have a pletora of comperaivelly unified standartised environments. Otherwise the pan-human culture would be torn appart in thousands of sub-populations with very high "organic" bariers for communication between them.

NO doubt huge, may be, even the major part of our descendants will leave the present Human Condition in infinity of various ways. That shall represent "third", "forth" and counting unendingly dimensions of our grouth and evolution. Regarding the tech to change oursekves bodies and minds - posthumanity is inevitable. But even if negligibly infinitesimal part of us in future reamain within the boundaries of the present Human Condition, we should not forget that it has trends and potential possessing their own infinities. Homo sapiens sapiens obtained the best survival strategy non depending on the old low-bangwidht comm -- the gene retranslation for body-to-environment adaptation. H.S.S. changes and wares shifted and anthropo-formed environment with themselves -- boats, clothes, houses... Such way we ensure to ourselves living room for grouth on every ground. Terraforming is just logical continuation of namely this strategy which is inscripted in the Human Condition.

No matter how diverse would become the mankind`s descent, the conservative ones shall be terraformers, as usual.

Mark · 2004-06-08 07:28:30

I agree with karov.

I mean, take away the distance problems and compare both Mars and Titan side-by-side, I think it would be quite a bit easier to get humans down on Titan than on Mars. Mars has the severe problems with pressure and radiation(seemingly), where as with Titan, yes, it's incredibly cold, no doubt, but you don't have the pressure or radiation problems(i'm under the impression there is no radiation problem on Titan). So as karov mentioned, the buildings don't need to be pressurized and *sealed off* like those on Mars would be, and they could be heated inside with appropriate temperature regulators and likewise kept cool in labs.

The thing is, I'm not sure what kind of suit would be needed to keep the human body warm in such horribly cold temperatures like around -180 degrees C. I don't know if we have that kind of suit technology yet.

atitarev · 2004-06-08 18:54:28

I agree with karov.
I mean, take away the distance problems and compare both Mars and Titan side-by-side, I think it would be quite a bit easier to get humans down on Titan than on Mars. Mars has the severe problems with pressure and radiation(seemingly), where as with Titan, yes, it's incredibly cold, no doubt, but you don't have the pressure or radiation problems(i'm under the impression there is no radiation problem on Titan). So as karov mentioned, the buildings don't need to be pressurized and *sealed off* like those on Mars would be, and they could be heated inside with appropriate temperature regulators and likewise kept cool in labs.
The thing is, I'm not sure what kind of suit would be needed to keep the human body warm in such horribly cold temperatures like around -180 degrees C. I don't know if we have that kind of suit technology yet.

I am just confirming that there are no radiation problems on Titan. Haven't got the proof handy but I read about it. Its distance from Saturn is pretty large.

karov · 2004-06-14 14:01:02

Another pre-terraformed-titan`s items:
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1. Superconductors -- under minus 180 degrees centigrade in the Titan`s wilderness/outback mass produced in the frame of the nowadays tech comperativelly cheap superconductors could be used for as many applications as could be imagined. For example biult-in the "icecrete" highways/powersupply grid for superfast maglev cars transport. The maglev supercoductive lines could be easily continued up to the proposed L1 & L2-surface beanstalks hence integrating the land and space transport. Combined with the trans-world&space power grid supllying Titan`s economy with space-solar electricity, hence O2, hence "petrol-equivalent" industry.
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2. Ice biuldings -- As I mentioned several post before the water ice "alloys" could have almost steel like propertiers in this hellishly cold climate -- so really huge "pocket" volumes could be terraformed/airconditioned -- may be single wall-uninterupted sight distance over dozens of km.s? -- huge igloo systems, with all the necesarry structural insulation/fridging, aircondition, and sealing-hanging lamps illumination. If the overall living sq.m.s + farming sq.m.s per human unit is calculated over most developed societies luxurous basis, and conserned the low-gravity+materials strenght, than it should occur that Titan ice-supercities could house the population of realy huge country without this to disturb/overheat the splendid natural cryo-environment or to take over more than several thousandth part of the surface. Comfort + vast wilderness! Big environmental in broader sence advantage of the surfice-partial "pocket" terraformation, i.e. arcology construction.
Plastics and other organic materials, wood, moisture containing aerogels, jellies would solid-freeze in the pre-terraformed Titan`s atmosphere in way giving lots of interesting and on-earth unexpected structural applications...
Titan makes the perfect presurized cryo-lab and cryo-home in the Solar system...
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3. Cryonic graveyard -- if the one-way trip cost to Titan from Earth (say advanced light sailing from earth orbit + aerobraking in Saturn and Titan) is less than, say $50 000 per kg in Y2K prices, than it is economical to send there the heads of literally as many as wished "neurosuspension patients" of the cryo-sepulture bussiness. At arrival -- simply burry them in certain geologically very stabile ground. They`ll stay freezed untill physical way of reincarnation is elaborated. Having in mind the lower 1/7th gravity Titan could become the Solar system`s super-cold Florida: low gee place for retired persons, enjoing a big deal of entertainments... hand-wing flying in or out of terraformed biuldings/igloos, methan/ethan lake "water"-sports, parachute jumps from orbit... waiting to die calmly or not so calmly and to be neurosuspended in natural geologically sure crionic facility -- beautifull graveyeards made from coloured ices, not ugly tincans with liquid N2.
----------------------------------------------------------
4. Solar illumination -- the distance to Saturn makes the solar power flux about 100 times lower than earth`s. But this means about 15 Watts per sq.m. average insolation!!! Comparable with the standart indoor artificial illumination. During the day time on Titan it is cold but light enough for the humans to be able to read, or to percept the landscape -- a little bit dim but with colours. Even without additional global illumination with redirected/produced light the Titan environment would be eyes-friendly for the superwinter-dressed+O2backpacked Titan-outback roamers. This off course depicts an atmosphere devoted of the orange organic smog, i.e. transperant enough -- achievable by local resourses and climate tickling?
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5................. You contineau!!!
I think that the advantages of such presurized cryo-nature are big enough for the titanians not to decide in long run to totaly terraform the open planetary surface. The tech-sphere could replace with equivalent or better the open type biosphere where we`ve used to be nested human technological civilization. Bubbles of TERRA amidst super-winter!

atitarev · 2004-07-08 21:16:30

Titan is the most hospitable extraterrestrial world within our Solar System for human colonization. In the almost Earth-normal atmospheric pressure of Titan, you would not need a pressure suit, just a dry suit to keep out the cold. On your back you could carry a tank of liquid oxygen, which would need no refrigeration in Titan’s environment, would weigh almost nothing, and could supply your breathing needs for a weeklong trip outside of the settlement. A small bleed valve off the tank would allow a trickle of oxygen to burn against the methane atmosphere, heating your breathing air and suit to desireble temperatures. With one-seventh Earth gravity and 4.5 times terrestrial sea-level atmospheric density, humans on Titan would be able to strap on wings and fly like birds. Electricity could be produced in great abundance, as the 100° K heat sink available in Titan’s atmosphere would allow for easy conversion of thermal energy from nuclear fission or fusion reactors to electricity at efficiencies of better than 80 percent. Titan contains milliards of tonnes of easily accessible carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen. By utilizing these elements together with heat and light from largescale nuclear fusion reactors, seeds, and some breeding pairs of livestock from Earth, a sizable agricultural base could be created within a protected biosphere on Titan.

karov · 2004-07-09 04:23:41

Anatolii, from where is this quote?

I agree with it absolutely!

Indeed such worlds could appear to be more usefull in their present cold and non-terraformed state and really HUGE protected earth-like environments to be constructed -- say compared in size with the biggest nowaday cities on Earth... or domes covering territory equal with the size with some smaller countries!

atitarev · 2004-07-09 08:36:37

Anatolii, from where is this quote?
I agree with it absolutely!
Indeed such worlds could appear to be more usefull in their present cold and non-terraformed state and really HUGE protected earth-like environments to be constructed -- say compared in size with the biggest nowaday cities on Earth... or domes covering territory equal with the size with some smaller countries!

I haven't saved the source. I just like what it said and I agree with that.

karov · 2004-07-10 15:56:07

Smaller than Titan bodies could be titan-formed instead of terraformed -- if the last occurs to be nonpractical or impossible for them. I mean open sky way of titanforming + closed terraformed environments within it.

Better than terraformed domes in naked vacuum!

Triton, Pluto, Titania, Oberon, Sedna... could have N2 atmospheres at 80-100 K temperature under ~1 Bar, without it gas to escape in space because of its own termal velocity.
Of course such way we deal with small planets beyond the orbit of Saturn. Closer to the Sun we need world-domes/tents/bubles/membranes... or means to cryogenicaly freeze the exobases to under 20% of the escape velocity...

Look at, 'colonisable worlds' thread...

karov · 2004-07-10 16:53:33

If regardless of its advantages as-it-is someday a decision is taken Titan to be really terraformed -- provided with oxigenated and warmed atmosphere devoted of hydrocarbon content/polution/, if it is concluded that higher average temperature of the atmosphere could be kept without boiling it off -- than many techs avoiding air (volatile) dissipation could be implemented.

The average molecule velocity of hydrogen at 300 K is 2000 m/s, for oxigen - 500 m/s. For N2 and other heavier ones -- in the range is also of hundreds m/s. With ~300 K at the surface seems possible to be kept 1/5th the escape velocity at the exobase -- manipulating the mesosphere (?)... At least for all except the hydrogen. To keep the last in place we as already discussed should hold it in water molecule -- decreasing to acceptable levels the photodissociation -- by manipulating the spectra for illumination or simply keeping most of the water in solid state.

A Tundra ecology on ice + permafrost under sky of dry mixture of O2+N2, could indeed be very 'lushy'. As in Antarctica, lots of microorganisms thrive in the ice - miniscule particles of dirt at the ice grains serve as collectors of heat, thus miniature liquid water drops are formed for life support of algae and bacteria. Permanent day style of illumination would promote the productivity. A concentrated light filteed out of UV will photodissociate water and push ions faster than escape velocity in lesser degree.
If the cover is rather snow, than solid ice, but even in the last form -- monocellular organisms provided with ability to retain liquid cytoplasma could produce lots of biomass within the ice -- which to be used by multicellular organisms or industrially harvested. Such way kinda ice-grains + permafrost based 'soils' could develop. Human biochemically compatible 'warmblooded' plants (trees) can be gengeneered -- able to grow directly rooted on ice - melting water for their needs and using the dirt as material for growth. If such ice-biota forms huge enough it could include in itself fullscale hydrocycle, without to be necessary to have open water tables on surface emiting moisture higher and higher to dissociate and escape. Or at least for aesthetical reasons we could hold some free water in lakes, rivers and small shallow seas and marshes, but the major part of the liquid water should reside within the organisms and the major part of the water totaly to represent rather part of 'litho'(ice)sphere than fluid hydrosphere. A kind of food-chain 'plumbing' of the hydrosphere. And heat distribution system confined in ecology. On Earth creatures like salmon travels thousands of kilometers bearing lots of energy from one place to other. On Tundric terraformed Titan other species could migrate through the ice to the very salty liquid waters beneath - like Vostok Lake in Antarctica or Europan ocean - in order to transfer energy and chemicals and to link the 'geotermal' ecology with the tundra one...

The surface ice - better by products of the ice-microbiota acting like countless von Neuman machines - could be polimerised or mixed somehow in order to have higher melting point than the conventional ice. Or sequestered in micro-bubbles - self-replicating frozen cucumbers and water mellons. Rocks with very high water content... Try to smash with weight a full non-opened plastic bottle with Cola and you find out how much structural strenght you have in water bags.
Such ways the water could be effectivelly kept away from the atmosphere in ~300 K environment. The air could be inhabited by microorganisms at certain high altitude which 'intentionally' to form condensation nuklei in order the rising water vapour to be rained down... Matter of design, fantasy and genetic technology...

The upper limit of productivity of such ice-implanted biosphere is the amount of light provided by mirrors or lasers, restricted by the total heat for melting the icy ground...

atitarev · 2004-07-11 00:00:49

Smaller than Titan bodies could be titan-formed instead of terraformed -- if the last occurs to be nonpractical or impossible for them. I mean open sky way of titanforming + closed terraformed environments within it.
Better than terraformed domes in naked vacuum!
Triton, Pluto, Titania, Oberon, Sedna... could have N2 atmospheres at 80-100 K temperature under ~1 Bar, without it gas to escape in space because of its own termal velocity.
Of course such way we deal with small planets beyond the orbit of Saturn. Closer to the Sun we need world-domes/tents/bubles/membranes... or means to cryogenicaly freeze the exobases to under 20% of the escape velocity...
Look at, 'colonisable worlds' thread...

I agree, that some atmosphere (even no breathable) is better than no atmosphere at all. Benefits - easier to land and for transportation (planes, parachutes), some protection from radiation. If Luna, for example were first Mars-formed - mission cost would drop significantly, especially human missions.

karov · 2004-07-16 03:47:45

I agree, that some atmosphere (even no breathable) is better than no atmosphere at all. Benefits - easier to land and for transportation (planes, parachutes), some protection from radiation. If Luna, for example were first Mars-formed - mission cost would drop significantly, especially human missions.

About Luna -- the mars-like atmosphere could consist of ~10 mbars of Ar-40 (if there is locally enough of it) or O2 (43% of the lunar crust composition). I think that pure O2, corossive air woild not be so suitable innitially -- but possibly cheap means of protecting the tech and structures copuld be implemented if there is no enough Ar there.

~10 mbars external presure would faciliate not only the use of parachutes/wings there for aerobraking and home airlines (also scramjet spaceplanes for orbiters), but will diminish significantly the requirements for domes` strenght providing some counterforce to the internal presure...

Just first stage for terraforming closer to the central stars moon-size and less bodies -- later real earth equivalent of brethable atmosphere will be introduced faciliated by the innitial mars-like one. The mars-like innitial air could aerobrake artificial meteors ( several grams each ) with CHON composition, without to be necessary they to hit directly the ground, i.e. to lithobrake casting secondary debris...

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-01-17 06:37:30

Hi,
Titan can't be terraformed. Check out my list at:
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/esc … scape.html
from my website:
http://www.geocities.com/alt_cosmos/ind … index.html
Michael

What ? But according to your concepts you say Venus can be given a pass in the areas you have written of terraforming. I know most scientists will tell you straight that Venus can Not be terraformed

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