From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

Palomar · 2002-10-23 15:18:43

Cindy, we don't need soil to colonize Mars. Hydroponics are better.
If the soil has some certain anorganic chemicals, plant could thrive in it. And to this point it seems it has the atoms, but not the right molecules... so it's not that bad.
Mars has not fossil fuels, as someone else pointed out. Nor has it had cows and goats pooping on it for centuries, or dead carcasses rotting in it...at least so far as we know.
What do all these things have to do with soil fertility ?! Most of the soil on Earth currently has been produced by dead plants, and not animals.

*But we can't terraform [unless, of course, you're opposed to terraforming...I can't remember everyone's view on it, who posts here] if we "simply" rely on hydroponics. ???

I thought animal waste was more important to fertilization of soil than plant waste. ???

--Cindy

Byron · 2002-10-23 16:09:41

Cindy, I think BGD was referring to early colonization efforts, in which people will need to rely on wholly closed systems for agriculture and living space. Hydroponics will be indeed the way to go in the early going, as it requires the least amount of expensive enclosed space to provide the necessary amount of crop production.

Terraforming, if it ever occurs, will come later in the settlement process, and it will be an incremental process, such as adding biogenned bacteria and whatnot to the Martian surface, which in turn would help render the Martian regolith into a more hospitable form for growing plants, etc. If we want to terraform Mars 'fast', we'd have to rely on such drastic measures such as dropping comets and ice-laden asteroids onto Mars to quickly build up the atmosphere, as well as raising the global temperature enough to have liquid water on the surface.

As far as animal wastes go, it is helpful for small-scale fertilization, but if you're talking about the planet as a whole, it'd take 1000's of years for animals to drop enough waste to make much of a difference...

B

Palomar · 2002-10-24 15:44:13

If we want to terraform Mars 'fast', we'd have to rely on such drastic measures such as dropping comets and ice-laden asteroids onto Mars to quickly build up the atmosphere, as well as raising the global temperature enough to have liquid water on the surface.
B

So we're going to have comet wranglers! I want to be a comet wrangler! Yeeeee-HAAAW!! Giddyap there, lil comet!!

Believe it or not, I'm totally sober.

I think someone mentioned comets and asteroids used in that manner before, but I'm not sure. How can we get hold of a comet or asteroid this way? By what technique?

I'm not doubting it can be done, just wondering.

And, of course, comets travel in long elliptical orbits, whereas asteroids generally have shorter and more round orbits...so maybe asteroids will be easier to harnass?

Giddyap there, lil asteroid...hey, we'll have to re-write the "Rawhide" theme!

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-24 18:02:48

Cindy wrote:-

So we're going to have comet wranglers! I want to be a comet wrangler! Yeeeee-HAAAW!! Giddyap there, lil comet!!

Why ma'am, I reckon as how you'll make jest about the purtiest comet wrangler we ever done had aroun' these parts. And that there's the truth!

How can we get hold of a comet or asteroid this way? By what technique?

Why shucks, ma'am! We don' know nuthin' 'bout no fancy store-bought tekneeeks, as you put it. We jest lasso them big frosty critters, hog-tie 'em and bring 'em on home! Ain't nuthin' to it, ma'am!!

Palomar · 2002-10-25 08:27:54

Shaun: Why ma'am, I reckon as how you'll make jest about the purtiest comet wrangler we ever done had aroun' these parts. And that there's the truth!

*Why, thank you, kind sir! {blushing}

Why shucks, ma'am! We don' know nuthin' 'bout no fancy store-bought tekneeeks, as you put it. We jest lasso them big frosty critters, hog-tie 'em and bring 'em on home! Ain't nuthin' to it, ma'am!!

*Why, I do just uh-DORE a big strong cowpoke who can wrangle in them big frosty critters!!

--Cindy

dickbill · 2002-10-26 13:18:08

about the regolith being not fertile: sure it is not, but not more unfertile than was the terran soil 3.5 billions years ago. Microorganisms made the job on earth, then primitive fungus, moss, ferns. The process on earth took millions of years because it was only driven by random genetic variation, contingency and natural selection.

Now, here on earth, we can reproduce this "evolutive" path for the martian regolith at higher speed, because we know more and more the physical and chemical conditions on mars, we can reproduce, here on earth, the martian conditions.

I have suggested to do it this way:
Take an enclosed chamber, such as a batometric tank, and introduce a low level ecological terran biotope, in its NORMAL conditions, such as artic sand, tropical soil, marine sand, desert rocks with fungus and lichens, soil from temperate regions etc.
Slowly switch the conditions in the tank to Mars conditions, by removing alittle bit of tank stuff and introducing reconstituted martian regolith and atmosphere, slow down temperature and pressure etc. The changes have to be very slow and small, each time the ecosystem has to be able to adapt, genetically and ecologically, to the new conditions and reach a new equilibrium. The adaptation of the new ecosystem to each little switch can be helped by introducing vector virus, bacterial plasmids or just raw DNA*. Those vectors would help to shuffle the information content in all the ecosystem by providing additional way to exchange genetic information between the different bacterial strains and the primitive eucaryotes interacting in the ecosystem.
In a time scale of several years, all the original ecosystem could be switch to conditions very similar to Mars conditions, maybe not as tough, but close to it and so, the "martian soil" obtained in that tank is fully colonizated by adapted organisms and can be used as a stater kit to colonize and fertilize martian soil ALMOST in situ (i.e. in a tanted slightly pressurized, slightly warmed environnment ) on Mars and without any additional work.

Ecosystems from different origin in Earth (thermal vent, antartic soil, halophilic ecosystem etc) will evolve differently in a tank, but they will all reach a final adaptative niche compatible with martian-like conditions and they will probably have different potentials to evolve further in real martian conditions. Thus, by using those different starter kit on Mars we increase the biodiversity potential and their chance to evolve further, maybe also to resume the evolution of putative primitive martian microorganisms and give them a new chance to participate of the great adventure of life. If the ecosystem is robust, it can probably compensate for unknown local conditions on Mars.

*it has been shown that bacterial populations, when submitted to an environnmental change, are more easily prone to change because:
1) Their genetic code become less stable, in part because their repair machinery is inhibited. Mutations accumulate, thus mutants or variants also appear more frequently, some are more adapted to new conditions.
2) Normally there is a genetic barrier between these different bacterial strains: a genetic mechanism forbid a high rate of genetic recombination between DNA from different species, even if the DNA sequence is close. In period of environmental instability, that barrier falls appart and the DNA with slighlty different sequences can now recombinate at a higher rate between species. That means that a bacterial strain can exchange genes and information with other bacterial strains, allowing to quickly adapt to new conditions without having to wait for the "appropriate beneficial" mutation.
3) In such environnmental change, bacteria are more prone to let foreign DNA enter their body, wich allows point 2.
4) virus can also shuffle genes from bacterial strains because of reason 1 and 2, plasmid and episomes too,
5) The point to add raw DNA rely on point 1)2)3). Billions of different random sequences synthetized by a nucleotides synthetizer, called oligonucleotides, can be addded in the soup during each envirommental switch, they will certainly ACCELERATE the processus.
5) after each switch, it is mandatory to wait for the system to stabilize again and reach a new equilibrium before the next switch, the genetic code is like a car, you don't want to blow up the engine.

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#51 2002-10-23 15:18:43

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#52 2002-10-23 16:09:41

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#53 2002-10-24 15:44:13

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#54 2002-10-24 18:02:48

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#55 2002-10-25 08:27:54

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

#56 2002-10-26 13:18:08

Re: From the Ground Up - Is terraforming Mars REALLY possible?

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