A New Vision for Mars - Include Ordinary People and Their Kids

Scott G. Beach · 2004-01-01 17:14:56

Stu:

I think you are right about the need for a mechanism to insure that lottery winners have at least some of "the right stuff." The winners should have the option to auction off, under the supervision of the lottery commission, their winning ticket. This would allow people who are not really interested in Mars to gracefully bow out of The Euthenia Project.

The people who are chosen, by lottery or otherwise, to live an a nation's neighborhood in The City of Euthenia should have to pass medical and skills tests. Keep in mind that this city will need people who can fill the roles of machinist, trolley driver, electrician, fire fighter, mason, police officer, janitor, secretary, etc. It would not make sense to try to put "the right stuff" (i.e., military test pilots) into these mundane roles.

The people in national neighborhoods will select two or three families to live in the city's "experimental neighborhoods." Those people will have to have "the right stuff" in the sense that they will have to be able to live and work with people from dozens of different nations, and they will have to accept that they or their sons or daughters may be chosen to be the first Martian explorers and settlers. The people who live in the experimental neighborhoods will, in this sense, be the city's "elite" members.

I composed another piece of protoMartian folk art. See it at http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743/phiderived.htm If you would like to learn more about Phi I recommend www.goldennumber.net and "The Golden Ratio: The Story of Phi, The World's Most Astonishing Number," by Mario Livio. I believe that Phi is a good candidate for the foundation of protoMartian folk art because it is politically neutral idea. Phi is in all of our fingers, regardless of which society or culture we currently belong to.

I am going to start assembling my Phi-based art into a Museum of ProtoMartian Folk Art. At some future point, you could invite school children and other prototypical Martians to send their art to me and I will add it to the Museum.

Scott G. Beach · 2004-01-01 22:04:09

Bill:

You wrote, "But then Robert Zubrin's 'Libertarians Unite' message ain't doing so well either."

Is Zubrin a Libertarian? I agree with the Libertarian call for honest weights and measures and, in particular, I believe that the U.S. dollar should be defined as a weight or volume of fine gold. I also agree with the Libertarian preference for small government. However, given the current state of our technology, the Martian ecosystem will require Martian settlers to be more socialistic that the Libertarian ideal.

Where I differ with Libertarians is on the broader issue of social control mechanisms. I believe that social control is going to be exercised one way or another. If government is going to be minimized then families must be strengthened. Families must be headed by fathers who provide moral leadership by being good examples for their children. And mothers must be good examples by honoring their vows to obey their husbands and they MUST be able to send shivers up the spines of their adolescent sons by saying, "You just wait until your father hears about this!" If social control is not exercised effectively in these ways then Martian settlements will need more police officers and more jail cells and higher taxes to support those kinds of social control mechanisms.

In another section of this forum I wrote about the "Magic Number" -- 150. Social scientists regard this as the maximum size of a human social network. We seem to have evolved to live in groups about this size. Informal social control can be exercised effectively in groups of up to 150 and that is why I have proposed that a prototype Martian settlement (The City of Euthenia) should be composed of neighborhoods of about 100 people. I am anticipating that neighborhood populations will fluctuate between 75 and 150 as the population of a Martian settlement grows and then divides in two to found a new settlement a few dozen kilometers away from the original settlement. (This settlement pattern works well for the Hutterites.)

In a settlement composed of 100 neighborhoods, the total population would fluctuate between 7,500 and 15,000. I believe that this is a large enough population to support a complex civilization while not being so large as to require lots of government employees (and correspondingly high taxes). Is this social design and development pattern something that Libertarians could agree with?

clark · 2004-01-02 10:28:06

How do you propose to control the population size in The City of Euthenia? How will the City prevent over-population?

. Families must be headed by fathers who provide moral leadership by being good examples for their children. And mothers must be good examples by honoring their vows to obey their husbands and they MUST be able to send shivers up the spines of their adolescent sons by saying, "You just wait until your father hears about this!" If social control is not exercised effectively in these ways then Martian settlements will need more police officers and more jail cells and higher taxes to support those kinds of social control mechanisms.

So you envision Father's being the primary decision maker, and enforcer of rules and punishment, for the family unit?

What will the City do to ensure that Mothers and Fathers are fufilling their vital and integral roles? Isn't there a neccessity for social control mechanisms to ensure that Mothers and Fathers comply, and execute their roles appropriately?

Scott G. Beach · 2004-01-02 14:03:27

Clark:

You asked, "How do you propose to control the population size in The City of Euthenia? How will the City prevent over-population?" In a prototype Martian settlement located on Earth, population growth would not be a critical issue. However, in a real Martian settlement the rate of population growth would have to be carefully monitored. I suppose that the City Council of The City of NEW Euthenia (the first Martian settlement) would adopt a plan that targets a particular population growth rate and fixes a date for the completion of a daughter settlement. The people of New Euthenia would have to decide how many hours per week they want to invest in the construction of a daughter settlement and then control their own reproduction rate so that their settlement population will be ready to divide in two when the daughter settlement is completed.

Hutterite settlements build daughter settlements and divide every 15 to 20 years. With our current technologies, it would probably take 30 to 40 years for a Martian settlement to build a daughter settlement for 10,000 people. However, if we are able to build robots that can cast stone into building blocks and then assemble those blocks into neighborhood domes and street grids, a Martian settlement might be able to produce a daughter settlement every 20 years.

And you asked, "So you envision Father's being the primary decision maker, and enforcer of rules and punishment, for the family unit?" Yes, this is how marriage traditionally works.

And you asked, "What will the City do to ensure that Mothers and Fathers are fulfilling their vital and integral roles? Isn't there a necessity for social control mechanisms to ensure that Mothers and Fathers comply, and execute their roles appropriately?" What a city usually does when parents fail to fulfill their parental duties is to terminate the parental rights of those parents and then place their children into foster homes. I believe that The City of Euthenia and actual Martian settlements will have similar social control mechanisms.

Clark, you wrote, "Perhaps tone down the language related to creating a pagan religion, it may turn some people off, and generally puts people on guard." I have proposed that, in order to promote political unity, the curriculum of the Euthenia city schools include the study of Phi. Students would learn that early scholars referred to Phi as the "Divine Proportion" and that those scholars believed that God had used Phi in the creation of the universe. Students who learn about Phi might decide, as a purely personally matter, to believe the same thing. I am NOT proposing that Phi be the foundation for a new religion because that would probably be destructive. People who subscribe to existing religions would see a new, Phi-based religion as a competitor and therefore as an enemy, and that would NOT promote political unity. If Phi were thought of as the Divine Proportion by Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc., then Phi could function as a bridge between these religious traditions and that would tend to defuse any inter-religious tensions that might develop. Mortar holds bricks together and, to the extent that Phi is regarded as the Divine Proportion, Phi could hold different ethnic groups together.

clark · 2004-01-02 15:14:39

The people of New Euthenia would have to decide how many hours per week they want to invest in the construction of a daughter settlement and then control their own reproduction rate so that their settlement population will be ready to divide in two when the daughter settlement is completed.

If individuals within the city don't control their population rate, say a specific sect, or minority, whose basic principles hold that their reproduction rate must not be controlled in any way, what happens? How might you, Emperor of Mars, resolve something like this? Would you suggest that laws, or rules, be established that will guide people on the appropriate behavior to follow? Or is the expectation that social peer pressure will be enough to ensure continued saftey?

And you asked, "So you envision Father's being the primary decision maker, and enforcer of rules and punishment, for the family unit?" Yes, this is how marriage traditionally works.

Traditionally for whom? What are the alternatives, how will Euthenia city/society cope with non-tradditional family units? Will non-traddtional family types be ostrasized, or discriminated against via social pressure?

What a city usually does when parents fail to fulfill their parental duties is to terminate the parental rights of those parents and then place their children into foster homes. I believe that The City of Euthenia and actual Martian settlements will have similar social control mechanisms.

So people who know one another, who all live in close proximity to one another, will take away each others children, when warranted? Surrounded by vaccum.

Josh Cryer · 2004-01-02 19:11:26

Robots! Robots are the solution for everything!!!! ::wild haired::

Scott G. Beach · 2004-01-02 22:33:26

Clark:

You asked, "If individuals within the city don't control their population rate, say a specific sect, or minority, whose basic principles hold that their reproduction rate must not be controlled in any way, what happens? How might you, Emperor of Mars, resolve something like this?"

The Emperor of Mars would warn profligate propagators that, unlike the Emperor, they are mortal and that they are therefore subject to the twin forces of famine and plague. The Emperor would say something pompous like, "Woe comes to those who disregard the wisdom of their own Sociocultural Development Plan." And if they disregarded the Emperor and begin building weapons so that they can attack neighboring settlements and take their food then the Emperor would have to order Imperial Stormtroopers to preemptively invade and annihilate the miscreants.

And you asked, "What are the alternatives, how will Euthenia city/society cope with non-traditional family units? Will non-traditional family types be ostracized, or discriminated against via social pressure?"

I do not know whether the Euthenians will allow polygamy, polyandry, group marriage, sexual communism, the "civil union" of homosexuals, and other "non-traditional" family arrangements. I am inclined to leave such matters to the City Council and the City Council might just decide to leave such matters to the discretion of each neighborhood.

And you asked, "So people who know one another, who all live in close proximity to one another, will take away each others children, when warranted? Surrounded by vacuum." This one really bothers me because I have seen this happen via local television news broadcasts. Just outside of a courtroom, immediately after a hearing in that court, a city social worker, acting in accordance with a court order, takes a screaming/crying child from its mother. That is a horrific scene but that is the way modern societies work. The alternative is to allow the children in dysfunctional homes to become uneducated, unemployable hoodlums who terrorize other citizens. I anticipate that Martian settlements will have laws that require parents to discipline their children and that such laws will be rigorously enforced. I believe that such laws will be rigorously enforced precisely because those settlements are surrounded by a vacuum. A society that lives so close to catastrophe cannot take the chance of allowing negligent parents to turn their children into juvenile delinquents.

I have seen news reports about recent prosecutions of parents whose children were repeatedly truant from school. One mother spent several days in jail. That is a less drastic social control mechanism than taking children from their parents. I hope that after these jailed parents are released from jail they begin to take their parental responsibilities more seriously.

Bill White · 2004-01-02 22:49:58

Robots! Robots are the solution for everything!!!! ::wild haired::

Heh! Isn't there a new mini-series called Battlestar Galactica that is derived from this idea?

A cool nuance of the re-make (which I don't think we at NewMars have discussed yet) is that the "robots" in the 2003 Battlestar re-make assert that they have "more" and "better" emotions than the humans. There were also hints that these robots are genuinely religious.

If the series gets picked up, those themes could be waaay cool.

But anyways, lets be careful about making robots, okay?

Aetius · 2004-01-03 04:24:35

I also loved the re-make of "Battlestar Galactica". The cautionary tale of self-aware computers and robots really hit home in a way that "The Terminator" never did.

It was also great to see women in more empowered roles than in the original. The re-make managed to do this without reducing the female characters to sterile, faultless feminist archetypes. The women seemed just like the women you and I know, forced to cope with an unimaginable holocaust.

Bill White · 2004-01-03 09:01:27

I also loved the re-make of "Battlestar Galactica". The cautionary tale of self-aware computers and robots really hit home in a way that "The Terminator" never did.
It was also great to see women in more empowered roles than in the original. The re-make managed to do this without reducing the female characters to sterile, faultless feminist archetypes. The women seemed just like the women you and I know, forced to cope with an unimaginable holocaust.

We agree 100% on this.

The female President and the experienced male General were BOTH right some of the time and wrong some of the time. Neither was right all the time.

I want more from the folks who did the mini-series.

= = =

Scott C. Beach - these thoughts have given me a question.

I readily see how your proposed social system is intended to better help people live together, social engineering for the greater good. I am far less sure your ideas will come close to actually working, but I do acknowledge the intent.

Here is my question - How does your system help each individual member of your society better understand themselves and the cosmos we all live in?

Is Phi actually true (IYHO) or merely a lie to facilitate social harmony?

= = =

You see, if the creators of the new Battlestar Galactica chose, they could quite easily run with the idea that the robots are more self aware, more emotional, more "self actualized" more "truly human" than the pitiful humans who can only maintain social stability when their leaders = LIE = about the search for Earth.

Scott G. Beach · 2004-01-03 18:14:43

Bill:

You asked, "How does your system help each individual member of your society better understand themselves and the cosmos we all live in? Is Phi actually true (IYHO) or merely a lie to facilitate social harmony?"

The number Phi can be calculated by adding the square root of 5 to 1 and then dividing that sum by 2. The result is an irrational number: 1.618033988749...
The reciprocal of Phi is 0.618033988749... and Phi squared is 2.618033988749... These interesting relationships are true ONLY for Phi. And Phi has dozens of other really amazing phenomena connected to it. A sample of amazing Phi phacts have been collected by Gary Meisner. See his web site at http://www.GoldenNumber.net This site includes data and a hypothesis about the shape of the universe. Scientists have hypothesized that the universe has the shape of a dodecahedron (12 regular pentagons fitted together). As you will see. Phi and 5 and pentagons are found together in various natural phenomena, including us.

I believe that Phi can transcend cultural boundaries and help to unite people to work for a common goal. That is why I have proposed that Phi be a principal component of the aesthetic tradition of The City of Euthenia.

I have started to assemble my Phi-based art into a Museum of PtotoMartian Folk Art. I am not ready to announce the Grand Opening of the museum but you can take a pre-opening peek at http://www.geocities.com/scott956282743/museumindex.htm

clark · 2004-01-05 10:03:40

I am inclined to leave such matters to the City Council and the City Council might just decide to leave such matters to the discretion of each neighborhood.

So then you don't envision an overarching, and binding agreement, that delineates the rights of the "neighborhood" versus the rights of the individuals? What are our rights, and what our responsibilities are, those are determined solely by the neighborhood or the City Council?

. I anticipate that Martian settlements will have laws that require parents to discipline their children and that such laws will be rigorously enforced.

By whom? How will the City be able to discern if parents are providing the necessary discipline when required? Is there a court system? What is the make up of the court system? What are the rights of the parents, society, and the children in this situation?

I'm all for everyone holding hands on Mars, but it takes a little more than proclamation to get there.

. A society that lives so close to catastrophe cannot take the chance of allowing negligent parents to turn their children into juvenile delinquents.

Okay, but you are aware of the flip side of this situation? It goes like this: I'm the nuclear engineer for the City- I keep the power on. My job requires that I am away from my family for longer than most others (say 16 hour days). My wife is dead, a construction mishap. I have two children, both in their early to mid teens. Given the circumstances, I am unable to monitor my children as well as the City requires. I can't for some obvious reasons, none of which are necessarily my fault. I could cut back on my hours, but then the City, and I, would have to rely on less trained individuals to carry on my duties.

Now imagine this situation, and imagine that the kids are acting up. I'm not around enough to keep them in line. So, some bright and well meaning bureaucrat in the Admin office of the City sees the report cards of my kids, the statements from their teachers and others, all stating that the kids are undisciplined by their father (sorry, my dead wife didn't believe in beating kids). The Admin office decides to take away my kids, to be raised by people more concerned for the welfare of my children.

Now, I'm the Nuclear Engineer for the City. The guy who keeps the power on. You just took away my kids. Do you think I will accept this? Can you imagine some who might not? Can you imagine what someone like I have just described might do, given his position?

Phi doesn't solve problems like this.

Bill White · 2004-01-05 10:37:32

I believe that Phi can transcend cultural boundaries and help to unite people to work for a common goal. That is why I have proposed that Phi be a principal component of the aesthetic tradition of The City of Euthenia.

Would it be a crime to produce art dis-respectful of Phi? What would the punishment be?

Scott G. Beach · 2004-01-05 20:29:55

Clark:

Modern societies are composed of millions of people and are extraordinarily complex. Such societies have written laws which specify what people may, shall, and shall not do.

Throughout most of human history, there were no laws and writing had not been invented. Peoples interactions with each other were regulated primarily by their emotions.

Our capacity to respond emotionally is hard-wired into us but each society builds on that capacity in a different way. I imagine The City of Euthenia as being a place where the City Council is composed of people who understand human physiology and behavior and who apply that knowledge to the task of managing the affairs of the City. They will not be thinking in terms of "legal rights." They will be trying to engineer a social environment where people can work together productively to achieve a common goal (i.e., building a daughter city on Mars).

You gave the example of an over-worked widowed engineer who has two teenage children. I cannot imagine that the City Council of the City of NEW Euthenia (located somewhere on Mars) would allow such a situation to develop. Every member of the City Council would know that critical personnel cannot regularly work 16-hour days. But if a 16-hour day was demanded once in a long while it would not have a negative impact on the supervision of the worker's children. The other adult members of the neighborhood that the worker lives in would automatically come together to fill in any supervision gaps. That is the way small societies work.

I have conducted fieldwork in small societies so I do not have difficulty in imagining how people would behave in Euthenia. If you have not lived in or studied small societies then I can understand why you focus on legal rights and legal processes -- that is probably what you studied in your civics classes in high school.

Instead of looking at Euthenia from a legal perspective, try looking at it from a family perspective. Each neighborhood in Euthenia will develop into an extended family. Children will not be neglected the way that they sometimes are in huge, "anonymous" societies. And children will not be able to go "wilding" in Euthenia's Central Park the way that some did in New York's Central Park.

clark · 2004-01-07 09:56:38

I have conducted fieldwork in small societies so I do not have difficulty in imagining how people would behave in Euthenia. If you have not lived in or studied small societies then I can understand why you focus on legal rights and legal processes -- that is probably what you studied in your civics classes in high school.

Ah, well then, if you prefer Lear, Hamlet, or perhaps an Oeidipus Rex, we can look to see how Phi is unhelpful to small town family politcs.

Extended families, or small towns, reinforce social order via peer pressure, but this can often be detrimental to the overall society as the 'unspoken' rules are the ones that cannot be changed, merely lived with.

Why must the family always meet at Uncle Charlie's? Becuase Cousin Gary had a falling out with Aunt Mary. Aunt mary dosen't approve of how Cousin Gary is raising his children. Cousin Gary dosen't care, since he feels that Aunt Mary has hated his immediate family ever since his father married someone with a different religion, and then converted. Phi be damned. uncle Charlie, and many others don't really care about the spat, but Aunt Mary is something of the family Matriarch, so she has a lot of sway in family politics.

How familiar is this?

Once again, I don't see how Phi helps.

sethmckiness · 2004-01-07 10:18:24

To Colonize Mars to start off with we would probably need a support system similar to Antarctica. You would have the Scientists doing their thing.. Also the support staff.. and such.. at least 10% of the staff would be support of some kind. Preferably those that are trained in multiple things. Just a thought..

Scott G. Beach · 2004-01-07 14:31:11

Clark:

Your brief description of the social dynamics in an extended family is eerily familiar (so familiar that it made me laugh, nervously).

You wrote, "Once again, I don't see how Phi helps." The Phi-based aesthetic tradition that I have proposed is NOT intended to facilitate intra-family harmony. The City of Euthenia would be composed of groups of people from all over the world. The people in those groups will have their own aesthetic and religious traditions. I believe that by weaving Phi into the traditions of the City, those civic traditions could be gradually incorporated into the "national" traditions of the people who live in the City's national neighborhoods. To the extent that Phi does gradually seep into those national traditions, Phi can act as a bridge that facilitates understanding, cooperation, and political unity.

If all of the people in The City of Euthenia were going to be members of the same ethnic group (e.g., Caucasian Baptists) then I would NOT be proposing that the City have an overarching, Phi-based aesthetic tradition.

Bill White · 2004-01-07 15:19:50

Clark:
Your brief description of the social dynamics in an extended family is eerily familiar (so familiar that it made me laugh, nervously).
You wrote, "Once again, I don't see how Phi helps." The Phi-based aesthetic tradition that I have proposed is NOT intended to facilitate intra-family harmony. The City of Euthenia would be composed of groups of people from all over the world. The people in those groups will have their own aesthetic and religious traditions. I believe that by weaving Phi into the traditions of the City, those civic traditions could be gradually incorporated into the "national" traditions of the people who live in the City's national neighborhoods. To the extent that Phi does gradually seep into those national traditions, Phi can act as a bridge that facilitates understanding, cooperation, and political unity.
If all of the people in The City of Euthenia were going to be members of the same ethnic group (e.g., Caucasian Baptists) then I would NOT be proposing that the City have an overarching, Phi-based aesthetic tradition.

To a certain extent this is what we US-ians are attempting right now in Iraq.

We want the population to place greater value on a common Iraqi identity than on a Kurdish identity or Shia identity or Baath identity. "Iraqi" of course is a wholly fictional identity invented by the British in 1919, not entirely unlike the "Phi" you propose to invent, although Iraq has had 80+ years to make "Iraqi" a real rather than fictictious source of identity.

= IF = we US-ians can pull this one off, and unite Sunni / Shia / Kurd under a larger umbrella named "Iraqi" I will be very impressed indeed and say "well done!" - - however I also fear we may have "bitten off more than can be chewed" and I remain awe-struck by a President who campaigned to keep America out of the nation-building business now fearlessly attempting the most difficult nation building campaign in all of human history.

Back to "Phi" - - why do you believe you will have any hope of persuading Catholics, secular humanists, Hindus, Buddhists, Rotarians, Unitarians and Rastafarians to unite under the banner of "Phi?"

What does "Phi" offer that a thousand or ten thousand other "empty until filled" placeholder symbols also offer?

= = =

"Soviet Union" was also a symbol intended to unify numerous diverse ethnic groups, and we all know what happened there with Russia, Ukraine, Belorus, Moldavia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Georgia, etc. . . all going their seperate and more or less peaceful ways.

What if the Rastafarians decide they don't like the "Phi" and want to slice off their slice?

Ya' man, like what then?

clark · 2004-01-07 15:36:11

. I believe that by weaving Phi into the traditions of the City, those civic traditions could be gradually incorporated into the "national" traditions of the people who live in the City's national neighborhoods. To the extent that Phi does gradually seep into those national traditions, Phi can act as a bridge that facilitates understanding, cooperation, and political unity.

Yet you admonished me for focusing on the "legal rights and legal processes" of the society, and instead encouraged me to look at the "family" aspect of this situation. I will endeavour to look at this anyway you want, but I think there are some 'holes' in this plan.

The idea of "Phi" as a non-denominational and non-ethnic idea/belief that can be used to bridge cultural and social differences is a good piece of the puzzle, I just don't think it should be the center-piece that holds the puzzle together.

The City of Euthenia as being a place where the City Council is composed of people who understand human physiology and behavior and who apply that knowledge to the task of managing the affairs of the City.

Every ideal society calls on the "Philospher King", but the societies that prepare for the "Incouragible Tyrants", are the most suited for prosperity. The house of cards falls apart when the Philospher Kings in the City are replaced, or twisted, by the would be Tyrants.

These tyrants exsist at any level you choose to define. It's personal politcs which is all derived from group hierrarchies. In both of my previous posts, I demonstrated how group hierrarchies are used as a means to control, or reduce personal liberty, and lead to violence (the family one was short, but come on, if you have a family, been to a reunion, you know how far these things can go)

Might I suggst that instead of emphasizing Phi in a multi-cultural society, you emphasize mutual respect for the welfare of all individuals. Phi just seems to distract.

Bill White · 2004-01-07 15:48:48

Every ideal society calls on the "Philospher King", but the societies that prepare for the "Incouragible Tyrants", are the most suited for prosperity. The house of cards falls apart when the Philospher Kings in the City are replaced, or twisted, by the would be Tyrants.

Heh! Me-thinks you have read "The Federalist Papers" and, understood them as well.

jadeheart · 2004-01-07 15:50:35

To Colonize Mars to start off with we would probably need a support system similar to Antarctica

I was kind of wondering if someone was going to mention Antarctica here. I've spent some time in the Antarctic Program and think it has some relevance to possible social conditions that would obtain on Mars. As a result of my experience I'd say that Mr. Beach's fixation on the Phi concept seems, to me at least, to be irrelevant to the maintenance of social order. (If my assumption that the purpose of the Phi concept would be to replace religion as a way of maintaining order and enlivening social cohesion is wrong then I apologize.) It was my experience that the general sense of group purpose in the Antarctic Program provides enough social incentive to keep things functioning quite well.

One point made earlier by Mr. Beach is that of the 150-member threshold for social coherence. My experience has borne this out to some degree. The smaller stations (100-200) in the Antarctic Program have a much more cohesive and can-do mentality than McMurdo, the main station (summer population on the order of 1500-2000), which has a few more problems with crime, apathy, and general disaffection. This is mostly, IMO, due to the increased social stratification resulting from task overspecialization. (ie, people whose only task is to wash dishes, or collect garbage, or clean toilets, etc. have a somewhat less-rosy outlook on the situation.) At smaller stations the more onerous duties tend to be shared by everybody and there is therefore less discontent-- even though conditions at smaller stations are much more crowded.

In Antarctic winter populations, where the Mars analogy is even more applicable (the winter crews are cut off from the outside world except for communication), survival depends to a large degree on community cooperation. This is enough to provide the 'peer pressure' mentioned by Clark. I would argue that this peer pressure is not overly stifling at the smaller stations; but in McMurdo, where there is a larger cadre of management specialists to enforce a status quo, this does indeed give rise to situations similar to those exposited in stories like Catch-22 and M*A*S*H.

So I think that the initial groups on Mars, if selected for personal compatibility and can-do attitude, will have few social problems. It's when things get bigger that problems will arise.

Another interesting phenomenon is the inevitable upwelling of friction between the winterover groups on the Ice and their erstwhile dictators in Denver (home to the current support contractor for the Antarctic Program). It happens without fail EVERY year and could certainly be read as a portent to future relations between Mars personnel and Earth. If the potential for schism exists at such a small scale already, you can be sure that it will only be more pronounced in Earth-Mars relations.

Another important point-- there are no family groups or kids in Antarctica. This absence is a BIG factor in alleviating possible social stress. As such I would be hesitant to allow a breeding colony for some time on Mars-- there'll be science to do and infrastructure to build. IMO Families & kids will be detrimental to this.

Also, I like the idea of the proto-Euthenia here on Earth. I think it's a good idea regardless of whether it's related to a future Mars settlement or not. An internationally-populated intentional community here on Earth might be useful in solving problems a lot more pressing than Mars settlement. I'd love to live in a community like that. Maybe one already exists somewhere, I dunno. In any case it would seem a worthy project for the U.N. to try.

Getting back to Phi-- sorry Scott, but I think it's unnecessary as a societal cement and is ultimately superfluous. Assuming it's even necessary to impose some kind of tool to this end, a common language would be sufficient IMO-- Latin served this purpose in the University population of Paris for a long time. Maybe Euthenia would be a good opportunity to dust off Esperanto and give it another chance.

For enduring this long-winded post I'll give you this bonus link to the amusing underbelly of Antarctic society: BigDeadPlace

Rxke · 2004-01-07 16:07:16

Great Jadeheart!

The M*A*S*H and 'schism' with 'Mission Control' (Denver) issues can't be stressed enough...

You should start a seperate thread on this (the whole antartic experience), it's really interesting stuff.

Rxke · 2004-01-07 16:10:48

Wow... One peek at that link you mentioned and i bookmarked it... If only for the impressive hardware on display!

'Dozers etc... like these will eventually have to be launched/built for/on Mars...

Bill White · 2004-01-07 17:35:01

From jadeheart's link - -

In the constellation of complaints, food and mail are the brightest stars. There is little you can say about either subject that has not already been whined, moaned, or groaned about already. In the interest of craftsmanship, it is best to remember that if you are going to complain, then you should do so in a way that entertains those around you, because no one really feels sorry for you anyway. All anyone really wants is to forget the miserable horrors of their mundane existence, if even for a few fleeting moments of laughter. Some people call any critical statement 'complaining' only when they do not agree with it, but are otherwise happy to complain about the food or the mail. Some people are tired of hearing those people complain about complaining.

Awesome! I loved this. . .

"In the interest of craftsmanship. . . " LOL!

clark · 2004-01-07 17:52:38

Bill, yes, but some things are just apparent.

Thanks for the link jadeheart, I am enjoying the read! Should be interesting food for conversation since a friends mother has just recently returned from her Antartica expedition (I am told there are nothing but pictures of ice and penguins)

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