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Wooow
Indeed!
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Double wow
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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How much autonomy Mars will have from Earth will depend on how fast the spaceships from Earth will be able to get there and how big its population is. If technology develops in a way that will allow spaceships to travel from Earth to Mars in a few days, then Mars won't have much independence from Earth. We can see the same trend in a rapidly globalizing Earth. Transportation has made distance become less of a factor and many places are trying to integrate closer with attempts in Europe, SE Asia, Latin America being at various stages of development.
However when interstellar travel is developped, most of the human settled planets will join up in a Terran Confederation, where each system will have local autonomy, but still belong to a larger group...
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Yes Mars will always start with a degree of autonomy. It cannot be micromanaged from Earth like we can do in LEO or even the Moon but then again also those on the planet will be forced to rely on themselves as it would also take the "cavalry" a long time to come and pull there fat out of the fire and this will also influence thinking.
The best analogy is that of the European colonies in the 19th century where due to the speed of the only transport in this case steamships the colony was run by a governor appointed from Europe. This was also the main way the Romans ran there empire too. But unlike the Romans the Europeans and the Mars colony would be able to send messages to home a lot faster than it takes for a person to actually arive. Of course this wont be true one to one communication but messages would be able to offer advice and practical suggestions as well, Also of course there will be the stupid ones too as often only the man on the ground has an idea of what is actually going on, He also has a tendency to be close to the problem too so Earth will benefit a Mars colony as a place removed and able to see a problem with clarity.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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Yes Mars will always start with a degree of autonomy. It cannot be micromanaged from Earth like we can do in LEO or even the Moon but then again also those on the planet will be forced to rely on themselves as it would also take the "cavalry" a long time to come and pull there fat out of the fire and this will also influence thinking.
The best analogy is that of the European colonies in the 19th century where due to the speed of the only transport in this case steamships the colony was run by a governor appointed from Europe. This was also the main way the Romans ran there empire too. But unlike the Romans the Europeans and the Mars colony would be able to send messages to home a lot faster than it takes for a person to actually arive. Of course this wont be true one to one communication but messages would be able to offer advice and practical suggestions as well, Also of course there will be the stupid ones too as often only the man on the ground has an idea of what is actually going on, He also has a tendency to be close to the problem too so Earth will benefit a Mars colony as a place removed and able to see a problem with clarity.
Interesting?
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Wow, a moment of lucidity... how'd you do that Grypd?
[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]
[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]
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here's my idea: interdependent communities (religious or philosophical) w/ free-market and direct democracy united by a non-bureaucratic global republic led by geniuses. I see it like this: different people from all over the world would go to Mars. Some would be religious pilgrims, some political exiles, some idealists, and they could establish non-militaristic city-states where they practice their religion freely or build the society of their dreams, and they would be connected to the global republic by the Martian internet. So it's kind of like Leifur's and Grypd's ideas put together.
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I don't think Mars will have a single government. !!!!!
I think that Mars will have colonies from various nations from Earth. each Nation will decide what governing authority for their colony, some will provide a governor like an external territory on earth, other will provide a self-governing structure and other will state major decision from earth command.
Eventually private concerns will also open their own colonies, this could have various management structure again. The corporate board structure could be used with a CEO managing operational affairs and board of directors managing the strategic future of the colony.
I think you need to be open to alot of different colonies on the surface of Mars, with USA, Russia, Europe, China, and Japan deciding to go to Mars and they all will eventually want colonies, before we look at commerical interests. Remember all parties ( including Nations will protect their interests or other interests that provide advantage to them)
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Yes Mars will always start with a degree of autonomy. It cannot be micromanaged from Earth like we can do in LEO or even the Moon but then again also those on the planet will be forced to rely on themselves as it would also take the "cavalry" a long time to come and pull there fat out of the fire and this will also influence thinking.
The best analogy is that of the European colonies in the 19th century where due to the speed of the only transport in this case steamships the colony was run by a governor appointed from Europe. This was also the main way the Romans ran there empire too. But unlike the Romans the Europeans and the Mars colony would be able to send messages to home a lot faster than it takes for a person to actually arive. Of course this wont be true one to one communication but messages would be able to offer advice and practical suggestions as well, Also of course there will be the stupid ones too as often only the man on the ground has an idea of what is actually going on, He also has a tendency to be close to the problem too so Earth will benefit a Mars colony as a place removed and able to see a problem with clarity.
This is essentially Robert Zubrin's analogy, and it is correct in very many ways. This is why he calls the early Martians 'pioneers.' This position is Robert's biggest focus when he talks about Mars and the benefits of getting there.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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The Mars government should rightly be decided by those people that live there. By carefully selecting who to send to Mars, the colonization sponsor will therefore decide on that government. This is sort of an electoral system, each colonist is an "elector" sent by the mission sponsor to Mars. Each elector will probably be sent with a draft of the proposed Martian constitution and then a constitutional convention will be convened on Mars where each of the Martian colonists will decide on what sort of government to govern themselves with and each of the following colonists will then have to abide by the constitution set up by the founders, that seems like a logical way to proceed. If at any time the population of Mars drops to zero, then the constitution agreed upon becomes null and void, and the next set of Martian colonists then become the new founders and they then decide upon their own Martian constitution which all later colonists must legally abide by.
What do you think? Is that a logical and consistant plan or what? Those that can't make it to Mars should have no say in how its governed, that is strictly up to the people that live there. Now what's the minimum amount of people on Mars required to have a quarum? May I suggest a number like 7 or 9?
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Just going back to "Speak Truth to Power," (I haven't been on these boards for a while) - it's a Quaker saying. It works for them....
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No nation has a claim to Mars as expressed by treaty. The governments of Earth have already disavowed the power to claim celestial bodies. There are three major goals that I think supporters of space exploration/colinization have.
1. Help ensure the survival of the Human species in the event of catastrophe on Earth.
2. Gain and profit from the vast resources available in space.
3. Allow humanity on Earth to benefit from discoveries and research in space.
I don't think many people, or nations are really looking for direct political control over Mars. In reality governments will eventually take root on Mars of their own accord. I'm not a fan of governments in general, nor the specter of centralized world states.
Frankly, I think that government funded space travel won't get us into space or into the planetary engineering business. I believe that private enterprises will do a far faster, cheaper, and more incentive driven job as technology advances.
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What issues are not settled peacefully now, will be settled more violently later when their is power at stake. I think the process of creating a Martian World Government should be a neat and orderly process with a minimum of violence, that means we should all agree on a process to form that new government and then go about it. The alternative may be colonists warring on each other, and I thing the environment on Mars is hostile enough. A Mars with many different nations will have the same problem of war and terrorism as does the Earth. You cannot assume that the entire Mars population will be composed of civilized scientists with their heads in the clouds and no personal conflicts with each other, because they are so much better than everybody else. No no, with increasing population, there will be rising crime as opportunities abound, and with crime you will need laws. I think a democratic World government will be best. the initial population will be small, less that most Earth Nations for the whole planet. The interests of the population as a whole will be best served by a single Mars government, that way they won't waste resources fighting each other and the Nations of Earth won't manipulate the small Martian nations and play them against each other. I think one of the main attractions of going to Mars is to get away from the conflicts going on at Earth, but if their are many nations on Mars, that negates that advantage, and then you have the spector of nuclear War. Who wants to live on a nearly airless planet where you are always 30 minutes away from potential nuclear destruction, when you can live under the same circumstance except on a planet with a breathable atmosphere. I think an independent space colony would be more attractive than living on one of the many nations of Mars. At least an O'Neill colony would have a single goverment. A single Martian government would be more compedative with free floating space colonies.
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The question of government will be answered by who colonizes Mars. If it is a governmental enterprise, I would expect those governements to want to retain control until such time as the "Martains" feel they are self suficient enough to declare their indpendance. Hopefully, there wont be enough military power on Earth to project that far.
If Mars is colonized by private companies, it is very much in the air as to what will happen. Those companies will see Mars as a large captial investment that they will not easily surrender.
As far as the Form of government, I would hope they opt for a "Planetary" government. This would decrease the chances for conflict since they are all under the same rule. Hopefully they well choose a form of representative government.
That government will have very different responsabilities such as controlling resources, population growth management, and educating thier population in a far more technical manner then we do here on Earth.
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The question of government will be answered by who colonizes Mars. If it is a governmental enterprise, I would expect those governements to want to retain control until such time as the "Martains" feel they are self suficient enough to declare their indpendance. Hopefully, there wont be enough military power on Earth to project that far.
If Mars is colonized by private companies, it is very much in the air as to what will happen. Those companies will see Mars as a large captial investment that they will not easily surrender.
As far as the Form of government, I would hope they opt for a "Planetary" government. This would decrease the chances for conflict since they are all under the same rule. Hopefully they well choose a form of representative government.
That government will have very different responsabilities such as controlling resources, population growth management, and educating thier population in a far more technical manner then we do here on Earth.
Welcome to new Mars KeithConto, Failte.
I agree that it is frankly impossible to decide the goverment of Mars as it does depend on who does colonise it. Still I do hope it is a western power who does at least they will bring democracy and a reasonably fair system with them. And those multinationals just by operating in space will have to say which country there home belongs too and as such be subservient to.
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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"Failte!" — Welcome! — to Gaelic, Ireland's little-used native tongue.
That works for me too Grypd.
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The government should be decided by the people on Mars, not the government sponsoring them. I think the best way to avoind colonial conflicts is for the people on Mars to decide what government there exists. The sponsors decide who to send, but the people on Mars alone decide on the government, however they happen to get there, whether by government or corporate sponsorship.
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In the 20th century on Earth, you were 4 times as likely to be killed by your own government, than by a foreign invader. In truth people have always been at great risk from their own government, and a less real but more propogandized view that it is other governments that pose a threat.
Having one martian government might cut down on war, but what about genocide or tyranny? Especially with a crowd of scientists in charge. Who is going to put a limit on government, so we do end up with things like eugenics programs?
Hey SpaceNut, I'm a Granite Stater too. "Live Free or Die"
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In the 20th century on Earth, you were 4 times as likely to be killed by your own government, than by a foreign invader. In truth people have always been at great risk from their own government, and a less real but more propogandized view that it is other governments that pose a threat.
Having one martian government might cut down on war, but what about genocide or tyranny? Especially with a crowd of scientists in charge. Who is going to put a limit on government, so we do end up with things like eugenics programs?
Hey SpaceNut, I'm a Granite Stater too. "Live Free or Die"
What prevents the same in the United States?
Constitutional checks and balances, seperations of powers, and a bill of rights, that's what. If the people of Mars want a government that doesn't fall into tyranny, they should follow that successful model. Many governments leave certain things out of their constitutions because they want to be different from the United States and write their own original Constitution, and in the process they leave certain things out, perhaps intentinally, and this provide opportunities for tyrants to rise to power. The Russian Constitution made the office or President too powerful, and the result is a dictatorship, and a censored press. People sometimes want strong governments because it makes it easier for that government to solve problems if their is no debate or opposition, the problem is then, you no longer have the ability to get that government to do what you want.
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What prevents the same in the United States?
Constitutional checks and balances, seperations of powers, and a bill of rights, that's what. If the people of Mars want a government that doesn't fall into tyranny, they should follow that successful model. Many governments leave certain things out of their constitutions because they want to be different from the United States and write their own original Constitution, and in the process they leave certain things out, perhaps intentinally, and this provide opportunities for tyrants to rise to power. The Russian Constitution made the office or President too powerful, and the result is a dictatorship, and a censored press. People sometimes want strong governments because it makes it easier for that government to solve problems if their is no debate or opposition, the problem is then, you no longer have the ability to get that government to do what you want.
yeah but the us has the highest prision population of the world, and is one of the most wasteful nations on earth!
i think that the private companies will be the first there and ihope they are. and the company that is the first to get there will be one made of of people who will truely care for the populas.
im talking about a government that will never ask any taxes from you. in a sense the government will be a corporation.. the very same one that landed there. one where the commedies and a few of the more expensive essensials will be under control of the government and revenue generated that way.
you wont have to moan and groan over a "balanced budget" there will always be room to expand, and there will be more than enough moeny to take care of day to day needs and the general populas needs.
and as a result the government get the moeny from everyone without having to tax them for every little thing, this would allow its cizitens to be the freest anyone has ever heard of.
true power is economic power as long as the government has control of the commidites and sets them at non-rediclous prices it would succede. you'd have free market and market niches filled here and there by private peoples etc.
stop me if im wrong.... if the private compaines are going to eb the first ones there.... why not turn them into the government? with resanable precautions and checks and balances
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What prevents the same in the United States?
Constitutional checks and balances, seperations of powers, and a bill of rights, that's what. If the people of Mars want a government that doesn't fall into tyranny, they should follow that successful model. Many governments leave certain things out of their constitutions because they want to be different from the United States and write their own original Constitution, and in the process they leave certain things out, perhaps intentinally, and this provide opportunities for tyrants to rise to power. The Russian Constitution made the office or President too powerful, and the result is a dictatorship, and a censored press. People sometimes want strong governments because it makes it easier for that government to solve problems if their is no debate or opposition, the problem is then, you no longer have the ability to get that government to do what you want.yeah but the us has the highest prision population of the world, and is one of the most wasteful nations on earth!
Certainly China has a higher prison population than we do, and North Korea is one great big prison, and its population is larger than the number of people we have in prision.
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everone was talking about democracy and of the democracys we do.... n. korea has concentraition camps, b/c thats how they keep their power... and china has no serial killers..... and not that much of a prision pop..... why cuase they shoot them once in the cheast and then once in the head and the family is charge for the bullets....
different cultures have different ways of life... comparing one agaist one and saying this works better than that isnt always able to be done
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i think that the private companies will be the first there and ihope they are.
Corporations only get involved in something if it's profitable. The Americas were colonized because European trade companies wanted stuff to sell.
It was mentioned in the ISA post that Mars should be treated like Antarctica. That's appropriate because it is exactly like Antarctica. It's an extremely harsh environment with no profitable value and any and all human activity there would need to be constantly re-supplied by the mainland (Earth.) If it turns out life did exist on Mars billions of years ago and we find vast oil fields, I'm sure Halliburton will be there within a year. The only real reason anyone would even go to Mars is for research. The only other possible reason is that people might want to go there for the simple reason of going there. I'd imagine walking on the surface of an alien planet would be quite the tourist attraction (at least until people got bored of it.) But since the Virgin company is decades behind even the Russians in their space-tourist program, I don't see them being "the first there."
The idea of spending trillions of dollars to go to an un-profitable planet with a bunch of refugees and saying "build a government. gl." Isn't anything close to a good idea. Nor is putting all of it in the hands of a corporation. It may make things interesting, but only in the movies.
Artist for [url=www.red-oasis.com]Red Oasis[/url]
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Politcs wouldn't be there at first, the main interest would be exploration, this would take most of the time away from how politics here on earth is, until one group of explorers found a rare ore that they could sell back on earth for a large profit. Thats when politics would be established, then someone would come along and try to establish the first Martio religion based on the political realm, then after that factions would then rise up, waring on each other, ect.
Perhaps Mars could be a testbed for a political free planet where exploration would be the norm instead of chilish notions of being the big boy on the block.
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I highly doubt Earth would allow anything to escalate as far as a war. And I don't see how discovering a precious ore would lead to a "Martio religion." Scientists are very sensible people, and I would hope they would be smart enough to understand that their survival in this extremely harsh environment depends upon their cooperation. It would take something very, very, extreme to dredge up conflicts that they would actually war over.
(Shameless plug: I am writing/drawing a web comic that addresses some of these very same issues. It is days from launch.)
Artist for [url=www.red-oasis.com]Red Oasis[/url]
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