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#76 2017-09-28 16:23:34

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Short answer: they wouldn't celebrate Earth-bound festivals. They are on a different planet.  They would of course celebrate their own Mars New Year once every two Earth years, nearly. I believe we are genetically bound to the lunar cycle as we are the diurnal cycle.  I think a x2 Earth month period is just too long a time period for us, from a genetic point of view. I think a 40 sol time period would be better.

I'd like to see Mars have its own festivals.  A Terraformation Day for instance. A Science Day perhaps.  Let the people of Mars decide.   

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
louis wrote:

As above, I still favour four seasons of 167 sols, comprising 16 periods of ten sols (with those 16 periods further sub-divided into quarters of 4 x 10 sols) and a festival period of 7 days.  The ten sol periods would be the equivalent of our weeks.

So each sol year would comprise 16 quarters (4 quarters for each of the four seasons), and four festival periods. 


Tom Kalbfus wrote:

But we associate March with the beginning of spring. Mars has seasons, Earth has seasons, each part of the Earth year has its analog for Mars, so why not use 12 months but make them longer? There are a lot of cultural reasons for this. We are familiar with the month names of January through December, so why not use them for Mars as well? And since Earth Mars month is longer than its equivalent Earth month, we know where to put all the traditional holidays, in the first half of each Mars Month. Christmas would be o December 25th, and then you have half a Mars Month left before you celebrate New Years Day!

Okay, on what date would Martian colonists pop their Champaign corks and celebrate a New Year? When would they celebrate Christmas, Easter, Valentines Day, Halloween, Saint Patrick's Day?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#77 2017-09-28 16:58:43

IanM
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 273

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

As for formatting, I would greatly favor Year-Month-Day. It's the system we on this forum use, and it makes sorting by date easier.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#78 2019-03-16 20:18:54

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

SpaceNut ... stopping here while reading the "martian calender" topic

The work you did allows smooth reading.  Thanks for revealing Clark's 14 month calendar suggestion (for example)

We are a week out from New Years on Mars, and this topic seems a better fit for discussion of a calendar on Mars than RobertDyck's Holidays topic.

It was interesting seeing posts by a gent in Sweden (as another example).

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

Fixed shifting topic issue and artifacts

Interesting topic for how to create a new calendar that sort of aligns with the one that we know so well. What would the new world be without our favor traditions coming along to help in celebrating them with loved ones still at home on Earth....

If anyone is interested in following the countdown to New Years on Mars, use the search tool.  Remove spaces.

s e a r c h t e r m(colon) and (colon)t o d a y o n m a r s

Use author: tahanson43206

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#79 2019-03-16 20:55:55

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Had to dig to find this answer as to when is new years for mars but in this post is the data as you meantioned in the other topic.

Its sad that a few aliens meant no concerted effort to celebrate a mars that we will soon enough be on.

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#80 2019-03-17 12:37:11

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/tim … _time.html

Martian Year: 34        Martian Month in 12 month format: 12
Solar Longitude: 356.6        Sol Number: 663

Previous SL: 356.1        Previous Sol: 662

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 663 is in Month 24 of a Proposed 24 month calendar.  See Post 19 of Holidays topic for a summary.
Month 24 extends from Sol 642 through 668
Sol 663 is Sunday in the Proposed calendar for Mars. It is the first day of the last week of the last month.

The New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-17 12:38:02)

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#81 2019-03-18 07:16:05

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/time.html

Martian Year: 34        Martian Month in 12 month format: 12
Solar Longitude: 357.1        Sol Number: 664

Previous SL: 356.6        Previous Sol: 663

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 664 is in Month 24 of a Proposed 24 month calendar.  See Post 19 of Holidays topic for a summary.
Month 24 extends from Sol 642 through 668
Sol 664 is Monday in the Proposed calendar for Mars. It is the first day of the first week of the last month.

The New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.

For current weather on Mars at Insight location, see:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-18 08:09:29)

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#82 2019-03-18 17:27:29

SpaceNut
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Posts: 15,102

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Just 3 more days for a Mars New year marking on the 21st.....

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#83 2019-03-18 17:44:14

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

For SpaceNut ...

Something to keep in mind is that the date of the 21st of March (on Earth) was chosen by the City of Mars, Pennsylvania.  The actual moment of transition will occur on the planet Mars a few days later, if the French web site I've been using is accurate. 

I have no way of confirming that the French site is accurate, and would appreciate someone finding additional resources.  This should be a knowable situation.

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

Just 3 more days for a Mars New year marking on the 21st.....

Edit: I found an astronomical observer's web site which included a reference to the position of Mars with respect to the Sun:

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/mars.htm

On March 24th Mars reaches Western quadrature, when the planet is positioned 90° West of the Sun. The Martian disk now appears 8".0 across and it shines at magnitude +0.4. Theoretically, when seen from the Earth, Mars should now show its minimum illuminated phase, such that it appears significantly gibbous when seen through telescopes (in this case, 88% illumination). However, the eccentric nature of the Martian orbit is such that true minimum phase does not occur until April 12th, by which time its phase has reduced slightly further to 87%.

March 24th looks close to when the French web site is predicting 360 degrees.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-18 18:05:40)

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#84 2019-03-19 08:12:17

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Following up on #83 .... the quote from nakedeyeplanets.com referred to Mars being West of the Sun on March 24th (Earth calendar).  I had not run into that reference frame before, so went looking for help.  A (potentially) useful resource showed up as an article by a NASA engineer who does celestial navigation. I do not have an answer to where "West of the Sun" came from, but the article referred to 15 frames of reference which may be in use for the International Space Station.  One of these is called ICRS, and it may be worth investigating.


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/a- … 49698.html

Answer by Robert Frost, NASA Engineer with specialization in spacecraft operations, orbital mechanics, and guidance, navigation and control systems

But, currently we care about how things are located with respect to our solar system. For that, a frame called ICRS (International Celestial Reference System) is commonly used. It is a quasi-inertial frame centered on the barycenter of our solar system. It is maintained by tracking the positions of almost three hundred sources outside our galaxy (e.g. quasars).

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#85 2019-03-19 12:06:13

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Today on Mars:

Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/tim … _time.html

Martian Year: 34        Martian Month in 12 month format: 12
Solar Longitude: 357.6        Sol Number: 665

Previous SL: 357.1        Previous Sol: 664

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 665 is in Month 24 of a Proposed 24 month calendar.  See Post 19 of Holiday topic for a summary.
Month 24 extends from Sol 642 through 668
Sol 665 is Tuesday in the Proposed calendar for Mars.

The New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.
For current weather on Mars at Insight location, see:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/

(th)

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#86 2019-03-20 11:24:47

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Today on Mars:


Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/tim … _time.html

Martian Year: 34        Martian Month in 12 month format: 12
Solar Longitude: 358.1        Sol Number: 665 <<-- This is a Sol which continues over two Earth days

Previous SL: 357.6        Previous Sol: 665

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 665 is in Month 24 of a Proposed 24 month calendar.  See Post 19 of Holidays topic for a summary.
Month 24 extends from Sol 642 through 668
Sol 665 is Tuesday in the Proposed calendar for Mars.

The New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.
For current weather on Mars at Insight location, see:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/

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#87 2019-03-21 09:04:28

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Today on Mars:

Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/time.html

Martian Year: 34        Martian Month in 12 month format: 12
Solar Longitude: 358.6        Sol Number: 666

Previous SL: 358.1        Previous Sol: 665

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 666 is in Month 24 of a Proposed 24 month calendar.  See Post 19 of Holidays topic for a summary.
Month 24 extends from Sol 642 through 668
Sol 666 is Wednesday in the Proposed calendar for Mars.

The New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.
For current weather on Mars at Insight location, see:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-21 09:06:39)

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#88 2019-03-22 20:00:39

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Today On Mars:

Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/tim … _time.html

Martian Year: 34        Martian Month in 12 month format: 12
Solar Longitude: 359.1        Sol Number: 667

Previous SL: 358.6        Previous Sol: 666

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 667 is in Month 24 of a Proposed 24 month calendar.  See Post 19 of Holidays topic for a summary.
Month 24 extends from Sol 642 through 668
Sol 667 is Thursday in the Proposed calendar for Mars.

The New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.

For current weather on Mars at Insight location, see:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/

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#89 2019-03-23 04:58:37

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Thanks for the reminder that NASA has us in Year  34 or MY 34. I'd be happy to run with that, as any start date is going to be arbitrary. But when does their Year start? It seems natural to me to begin it on the solstice. If they've just started their Mars Year on a random sol, that seems to me to be a great shame and should be readjusted going forward (just have one v. long year?).

I don't see the justification for 12 months.  Months on earth relate originally to lunar cycles and also give us the 28/4 = 7 rationale for the week.

A Mars month on this basis is going to be a long and irrational stretch of time: 55 or 56 sols.

That's why I propose the week be replaced by the "tensol" (10 sols) with four seasons of 160  sols (divided into 4 quarters ie 40 sols each, roughly corresponding to our month). The remainder of 27 sols can be allocated to special festive periods based around the solstices and equinoxes. I think this will "humanise" the Mars year which otherwise may appear rather daunting to newcomers.


I see the Mars sols are nice and warm in the afternoon at the moment!


tahanson43206 wrote:

Today On Mars:

Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/tim … _time.html

Martian Year: 34        Martian Month in 12 month format: 12
Solar Longitude: 359.1        Sol Number: 667

Previous SL: 358.6        Previous Sol: 666

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 667 is in Month 24 of a Proposed 24 month calendar.  See Post 19 of Holidays topic for a summary.
Month 24 extends from Sol 642 through 668
Sol 667 is Thursday in the Proposed calendar for Mars.

The New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.

For current weather on Mars at Insight location, see:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#90 2019-03-23 06:32:08

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

For Louis #89

Thanks for noting the imminent occurrence of New Years on Mars << grin >>

The 12 month calendar is just one of many proposals, including your interesting one.

I am proposing a 24 month calendar.  To see specifics, you can follow the Holidays topic from Post 19 on.

According to the 24 month calendar, we are in the month of (proposed) Zubrin.

Each month consists of exactly 4 weeks of 7 days each, except for the last week of each quarter, which skips one day.

The next exception is coming up.  For the last quarter of the year, the Friday will not be skipped, but instead, the last Sol of the year will be short.

I'd like to thank RobertDyck for assistance/guidance on design of the 24 month calendar concept.

The French web site explains in detail how the sols are computed.  In particular, the first Sol of the new year will start at precisely the moment the planet reaches 360 degrees of the current orbit.  Thus, the proposed calendar will not require adjustment as has been true of all (that I know of) Earth calendars.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-23 07:28:47)

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#91 2019-03-23 08:50:10

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

As noted the shortest day of a mars year occurs with the solstice and as noted peple will still work simular to the earth bio's for quite some time once landing on mars. They will be reminded of holidays from earth communications to freinds and families and even by the coordination country which stands in support of any one on mars. Sure the day will be longer but so can the sleep cycle.

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#92 2019-03-23 08:58:39

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

For SpaceNut, Louis and anyone else who may be interested.

According to the French web site quoted below, today is Sol 668, and Solar Longitude is 359.6.  Since the solstice will occur when Longitude reaches 360, and since the daily increment (rounded) has been either 5 or 6, I am unsure how the web site programming will show Sol 669, if at all.

In any case, Sol 668 is a reasonable candidate for New Years Eve on Mars.

New Years Day would begin (according to the French web site text) at the instant when Mars crosses from 360 degrees to 0 of the next orbit.

Today on Mars: New Year's Eve

Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/tim … _time.html

Martian Year: 34        Martian Month in 12 month format: 12
Solar Longitude: 359.6        Sol Number: 668

Previous SL: 359.1        Previous Sol: 667

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 668 is in Month 24 of a Proposed 24 month calendar.  See Post 19 of Holidays topic for a summary.
Month 24 extends from Sol 642 through 668
Sol 668 is Friday in the Proposed calendar for Mars.
Sol 669 is a short interval computed to fill the longitude from the end of Sol 668 to the start of Sol 1 of the next orbit

The New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.
For current weather on Mars at Insight location, see:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-23 09:05:07)

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#93 2019-03-23 11:13:10

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

24 month is definitely better than 12 month!


tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis #89

Thanks for noting the imminent occurrence of New Years on Mars << grin >>

The 12 month calendar is just one of many proposals, including your interesting one.

I am proposing a 24 month calendar.  To see specifics, you can follow the Holidays topic from Post 19 on.

According to the 24 month calendar, we are in the month of (proposed) Zubrin.

Each month consists of exactly 4 weeks of 7 days each, except for the last week of each quarter, which skips one day.

The next exception is coming up.  For the last quarter of the year, the Friday will not be skipped, but instead, the last Sol of the year will be short.

I'd like to thank RobertDyck for assistance/guidance on design of the 24 month calendar concept.

The French web site explains in detail how the sols are computed.  In particular, the first Sol of the new year will start at precisely the moment the planet reaches 360 degrees of the current orbit.  Thus, the proposed calendar will not require adjustment as has been true of all (that I know of) Earth calendars.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#94 2019-03-23 11:50:45

SpaceNut
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Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

The same thing occurs on on Earth with the mean time location being in Grenich...So where is that location on mars for that time start location....

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#95 2019-03-23 15:55:00

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

For SpaceNut ....

Excellent question (as always!) ...  I (am pretty sure I) read the answer somewhere, and promptly forgot it!

I'll try to find it again.

However!  If someone else finds it first, Bravo!

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

The same thing occurs on on Earth with the mean time location being in Grenich...So where is that location on mars for that time start location....

As of 17:54 EST, the French web site is still reporting Sol 668.

Edit at 18:20 EST ... that didn't take long!  Mr. Google came up with a citation that shows the Prime Meridian was set in the 1800's:
https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Spac … de_on_Mars

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-23 16:21:24)

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#96 2019-03-23 17:57:20

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Same location I think - 0 degrees longitude.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut ....

Excellent question (as always!) ...  I (am pretty sure I) read the answer somewhere, and promptly forgot it!

I'll try to find it again.

However!  If someone else finds it first, Bravo!

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

The same thing occurs on on Earth with the mean time location being in Grenich...So where is that location on mars for that time start location....

As of 17:54 EST, the French web site is still reporting Sol 668.

Edit at 18:20 EST ... that didn't take long!  Mr. Google came up with a citation that shows the Prime Meridian was set in the 1800's:
https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Spac … de_on_Mars

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#97 2019-03-23 18:00:37

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,565

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Even if the "exact" point of an orbit is chosen to designate the start of a year that creates issues as the orbit doesn't relate to sols exactly  and, moreover, each year's orbit is fractionally different.  In terms of human culture, it is much more important to have an exact sol length - as defined by atomic clocks or similar - which (as necessary) can be periodically adjusted rather than try and fit our lives around orbital time.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#98 2019-03-23 18:32:44

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

For Louis ...

You are ** SO ** close to helping us put it all together!

The beauty of the French web site explanation (as I understand it) is that they use the Mars second, and spread 60 of those over each minute. They use 60 of those minutes per hour, and 24 hours per Sol.  The result is 668 days and change to fill out an orbit.  The changes which may occur in the duration of the orbit are less than the "change", so the business year will be constant and reliable, with four seven day weeks per each of 24 months.

As explained earlier, the only exceptions are the last week of each quarter, which exclude Friday, to insure 668/4 days per quarter.

Also as explained earlier, the last week of the last quarter can keep Friday and allocate Saturday to the short day "669", which is used to re-align the human calendar with the astronomical one at the moment the planet crosses from 360 degrees to 0.  That day 669 is a perfect candidate for a holiday feeding into New Years Day.

(th)

louis wrote:

Even if the "exact" point of an orbit is chosen to designate the start of a year that creates issues as the orbit doesn't relate to sols exactly  and, moreover, each year's orbit is fractionally different.  In terms of human culture, it is much more important to have an exact sol length - as defined by atomic clocks or similar - which (as necessary) can be periodically adjusted rather than try and fit our lives around orbital time.

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#99 2019-03-24 07:21:19

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 598

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

Today on Mars:

Assuming the French web site quoted above is accurate, today is New Years on Mars. 


Per http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/tim … _time.html

Martian Year: 35        Martian Month in 12 month format: 1
Solar Longitude: 000.1        Sol Number: 1

Previous SL: 359.6        Previous Sol: 668

Note that Solar Longitude measurement varies as a function of location in orbit.

Sol 1 is in Month 1 of a Proposed 24 month calendar. See Post 19 of Holidays topic for a summary.
Month 1 extends from Sol 1 through 28
Sol 1 is Sunday in the Proposed calendar for Mars.

The Next New Year on Mars will occur when Solar Longitude reaches 360 degrees.
For current weather on Mars at Insight location, see:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-03-24 11:06:08)

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#100 2019-03-24 08:46:06

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,102

Re: Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender...

So how do we celebrate... with fireworks, champaign, a feast of garden grown mars vegies?
Its a mars holiday what will we want it to be remembered for?
How would earth in general, millions of miles away sense or be part of what has occured on mars let along how would martians percieve earths happy new year?

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