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#51 2004-10-22 09:50:35

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Magnetized-beam plasma propulsion - 90 day Mars round trip?

Many square miles of water ice found on the moons south pole.

http://www.cmf.nrl.navy.mil/clementine/ … lementine/

The blue area indicats water ice.

http://www.cmf.nrl.navy.mil/clementine/ … lementine/

Also, the North pole may have more water ice than the south pole.

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#52 2004-10-22 10:45:11

RobS
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From: South Bend, IN
Registered: 2002-01-15
Posts: 1,701
Website

Re: Magnetized-beam plasma propulsion - 90 day Mars round trip?

Errorist, Clementine detected HYDROGEN, not ice. The hydrogen PROBABLY represents water, but PROBABLY the water is disseminated in regolith in concentrations less that 10% and maybe less than 1%. The Arecebo radar data confirmed there are no ice deposits off of which radar could bounce, but it could not speak to the question of frosty regolith (which is, essentially, the most likely water source at the poles). Finally, one has the little problem of figuring out how to exploit frosty regolith that is so cold, bulldozer blades and scoops will shatter. No one currently knows how to exploit the frost there, IF the concentration is high enough to make the exploitation economic. If the frost is less than 1% of the regolith by mass, it may be cheaper hauling hydrogen from the Earth and cracking oxides in the regolith to obtain oxygen.

There is some evidence that the moon is not completely dead volcanically, so it is possible that deep inside the moon there are hydrated minerals and maybe even low concentrations of disseminated water ice. But we neither have the technology to detect such resources (which will be hundreds of meters down) nor the technology to mine them.

As for someone's comment about uranium on the moon, the question isn't WHETHER there is uranium on the moon, but where and in what concentrations. On the earth, uranium deposits almost always form hydrothermally, that is, hot water seeping from magma dissolves the uranium and then concentrates it somewhere else. The vast majority of terrestrial mineral deposits were formed by processes that included water. The moon is dry as a bone and any magmas that formed inside it were much drier than terrestrial magmas. So it is likely the moon does not have extensive ore bodies like the earth. That means any exploitation of its resources must extract from either (1) ordinary regolith, which is a mix of everything in low concentrations, or (2) frost deposits, which possibly could have some CO2 I suppose, or (3) meteoritic fragments, mainly nickel-iron (because comets would vaporize on impact and chondrites would smash into zillions of little pieces).

         -- RobS

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#53 2004-10-22 10:56:27

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Magnetized-beam plasma propulsion - 90 day Mars round trip?

The Lunar Prospector, a NASA Discovery mission, was launched into lunar orbit in January 1998. Included on Lunar Prospector is an experiment called the Neutron Spectrometer. This experiment is designed to detect minute amounts of water ice at a level of less than 0.01%. The instrument concentrated on areas near the lunar poles where it was thought these water ice deposits might be found. The Neutron Spectrometer looks for so-called "slow" (or thermal) and "intermediate" (or epithermal) neutrons which result from collisions of normal "fast" neutrons with hydrogen atoms. A significant amount of hydrogen would indicate the existence of water. The data show a distinctive 4.6 percent signature over the north polar region and a 3.0 percent signature over the south, a strong indication that water is present in both these areas. The instrument can detect water to a depth of about half a meter.

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#54 2004-10-22 17:02:16

Grypd
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From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,879

Re: Magnetized-beam plasma propulsion - 90 day Mars round trip?

The Lunar Prospector, a NASA Discovery mission, was launched into lunar orbit in January 1998. Included on Lunar Prospector is an experiment called the Neutron Spectrometer. This experiment is designed to detect minute amounts of water ice at a level of less than 0.01%. The instrument concentrated on areas near the lunar poles where it was thought these water ice deposits might be found. The Neutron Spectrometer looks for so-called "slow" (or thermal) and "intermediate" (or epithermal) neutrons which result from collisions of normal "fast" neutrons with hydrogen atoms. A significant amount of hydrogen would indicate the existence of water. The data show a distinctive 4.6 percent signature over the north polar region and a 3.0 percent signature over the south, a strong indication that water is present in both these areas. The instrument can detect water to a depth of about half a meter.

It did not detect water it detects hydrogen.

Is this important in that it does not quarantee that the Hydrogen would be found in the form of water ice likely but not sure. It could easily be in the form of Hydro Carbons as the most likely source of these deposits is the collision of comets and they have both present.

If you want to see for sure then you will have to send something in to look and take samples we are talking a rover here with an orbiter above to ensure radio command coverage.

And why bother making concrete make bricks of heated regolith instead. The high silicon oxide content of commen regolith will allow an easy building process especially using a solar oven to get heat. We would be using the silicon to make solar cells to power any such structure you propose anyway.

And GCNRevenger is right if we can lob something as large as the mechanism to fire those powerful an ion beams then we would certainly have put something into orbit which would power a craft to do it cheaper and just as fast.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#55 2004-10-24 20:23:13

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Magnetized-beam plasma propulsion - 90 day Mars round trip?

The data show a distinctive 4.6 percent signature over the north polar region and a 3.0 percent signature over the south, The instrument can detect water to a depth of about half a meter.


A strong indication that "WATER" is present in both these areas.

Not "HYDROGEN".

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#56 2004-10-24 21:02:21

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Magnetized-beam plasma propulsion - 90 day Mars round trip?

Actually no it didn't Errorist. A neutron sensor doesn't detect anything about the electrons of atoms, so it cannot tell you what molecule those atoms are a part of with the insturment used. We assume that the signature is from water, because we know that hydrogen will not bind readily in the soil chemically in such a fasion that it would stay, nor would hydrogen gas remain trapped in such a quantity either. So, since water is prevelent on Earth, on Mars, the Gas Giants, and comets it is therefore a reasonable assumption.

But not a sure thing.


[i]"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw[/i]

[i]The glass is at 50% of capacity[/i]

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#57 2004-10-25 06:26:21

ERRORIST
Member
From: OXFORD ALABAMA
Registered: 2004-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Magnetized-beam plasma propulsion - 90 day Mars round trip?

Here is another reasonable assumption. The Sun will rise tomorrow.

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#58 2004-11-16 09:30:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,958

Re: Magnetized-beam plasma propulsion - 90 day Mars round trip?

To Mars and back in 90 days: UW researchers studying faster space travel methods

Students and faculty are working at the Earth and space sciences (ESS) lab are working on projects that will lead to an upcoming project to cut the costs and time of space travel.

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