Nutrition

John Creighton · 2004-08-12 19:42:00

I wonder if it is different for skim milk?

Morris · 2004-08-12 19:55:05

Modern nutritionists, after observing populations of strict vegetarians who were healthier and lived longer than meat-eaters, now realize that all essential amino acids may be obtained from a variety of vegetables or grains eaten over a one-to-two-day period.

This is a statement from the article of Dr. Atwood's that you referred to. Note carefully the statement "variety of vegetables or grains".

http://www.vegsource.com/attwood/comple … in.htm]The old ideas about the necessity of carefully combining vegetables at every meal to ensure the supply of essential amino acids has been totally refuted

Obviously, you wanted to place a special emphasis on this. I want to note that none of my posts either stated or implied that they had to be eaten at the same meal. The old nutritionists understood that there is a difference between a necessity and a conservative strategy for advising people on meal planning and preparation. I see some medical doctors are as good at setting up "straw men" as anyone else with an axe to grind.

But it is an interesting article. And Dr. Attwood's name is as almost as well known among dieters as is Dr. Atkins. And both have, shall we say, their own "point of view" compared to the field as a whole.

Not that I disagree with his final conclusion. When resources are limited, why raise grass and grain to feed to poultry and livestock when you can get along quite adequately (perhaps with some supplemental minerals shipped from Earth) with fruit, vegetables, and grain fed directly to people?

I see I will need to catch up on my research on beans. At one time I could have named the amino acid that was said to be deficient for beans (it's lysine for corn). But even if there are some beans that contain all the essential amino acids for proteins, my initial statement that no "single vegetable" could be considered a "best food" is still quite valid, due to the need for vitamins, minerals, and essential fatty acids.

I am very interested in the possibility of genetic modifications in plants that might produce all the amino acids in significant quantities.

An interesting finding is food addiction. Working on the same parts of the brain, addictive substances tie in with survival, as can some foods. In addition, a mothers preference is passed on to the unborn child. Some slightly addictive substances are useful. Extremely addictive feels so good and the person looses interest in eating, as emplified by the skinny drug addicts.

Yes, interesting. What are some of these useful "slightly addictive substances"?

Morris · 2004-08-12 19:58:01

Me! Collards are better, though.
I am surprised to see that they contain more calcium per calorie than milk. Probably because of milk fat...

Me too. But I prefer mustard greens.

John Creighton · 2004-08-12 21:01:30

I think this tells us most of the nutritional information of beans and lentils.

http://waltonfeed.com/self/ntr6.html]ht … /ntr6.html

Are any of the following either fats of amino acids?

Myristic acid
Palmitic acid
Palmitoleic acid
Stearic acid
Oleic acid
Linoleic acid
Linolenic acid
Gadoleic acid
Aspartic acid
Glutamic acid

Morris · 2004-08-13 00:23:19

I think this tells us most of the nutritional information of beans and lentils.
http://waltonfeed.com/self/ntr6.html]ht … /ntr6.html

Very interesting table. The only gripe I have about it is that it doesn't list some things we are known to need, I assume because the beans don't have any of it. Prime examples are Vitamins D and E. It's hard to get a really good evaluation unless all needed items are included. And, darn it, even though I told my printer to scale the print to fit the page, it truncated the female RDAs on the right.

Are any of the following either fats of amino acids?
Myristic acid
Palmitic acid
Palmitoleic acid
Stearic acid
Oleic acid
Linoleic acid
Linolenic acid
Gadoleic acid
Aspartic acid
Glutamic acid

In the nutrition book I read, oleic, linoleic, and linolenic acid were specifically referred to as "essential fatty acids". I note that we would likely need more of these than the beans would easily provide.

An overall impression. Yes, this makes a good case that beans would provide all the essential amino acids (unless one or more of them were't listed) and we could eat enough to get the protein we need. We would seem to need more carbohydrates than could pleasantly be provided by beans, more of some vitamins and minerals, and more of the essential fatty acids.

And the big thing is that you would need nearly 900 grams of beans to provide the total food energy RDA for a 174 pound male. This is the big advantage of meat, you get a higher energy/mass ratio. But it may be that in the lower gravity of Mars, the total energy requirements will not be so high.

Anyway, neat! How long did you have to search to find the table?

SpaceNut · 2004-08-13 06:28:52

So we are able to get most of the daily minerals and vitamins needed by growing of plants though I am skeptical about how well some will actually do. But how do we get old besty the cow for the milk products of cheese and such. Or the Liver for the vitamin E let alone vitamin D which I think our body produce when we are out in the sun light naturally.

Have any husbandry experiments with small livestock been done on the ISS?

MarsDog · 2004-08-13 11:32:25

Genetically engineered plants, yeast, fungi, little creatures that you find in pond water will be sufficient; Add worms and bugs, maybe a few guppies. In larger greenhouses, it will be easy to introduce small animals such as rabbits, http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/aug/19tn.htm]rats and chickens.
-
Pigs and cows might arrive with the first zoo.
They will not be eaten for religious/political/public relations reasons.

John Creighton · 2004-08-13 12:56:32

According to http://www.vegsource.com/attwood/milk.h … d/milk.htm

To further confuse the consumer, milk and infant formulas have been fortified with vitamin D, which is necessary for proper calcium absorption. It may also be obtained by eating sardines, herring, salmon, tuna, egg yolk, and fish oils. However, none of these are necessary, because it's manufactured in adequate amounts by exposure to as little as 10-15 minutes of sunlight about three times a week. Rickets may be prevented in children getting no sunlight--such as the totally disabled, by a vitamin D supplement, if the parents do not wish to feed them fortified milk.

most people only need about 15 minutes of sunlight a day to produce enough vitamin D. The omega 3 fatty acids can be taken care of be eating http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/flaxnutT.htm]flax. I don't know how to cook it yet. I will have to learn. I personally eat omega 3 eggs. I don't know how important it is but if it makes the slightest difference in concentration I'll take it

Flaxseed contains a mix of fatty acids. It is high in
polyunsaturated fatty acids (73%), moderate in
monounsaturated fatty acids (18%), and low in saturated
fatty acids (9%). The saturated fat level of flaxseed is
similar to that of canola. Flaxseed is a rich plant source
of alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), an essential fatty acid in
the human diet and the parent fatty acid of the omega-3
family, as shown in Figure 1. ALA is converted to two
main long-chain fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)
and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), in a series of
enzymatic reactions (below). ALA has been shown to
modulate eicosanoid synthesis,2 and its concentration
in breast milk exceeds that of DHA, suggesting a
particular requirement for ALA by infants.3, 4

from: http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/pdf/meta.pdf] … f/meta.pdf

John Creighton · 2004-08-13 13:08:16

Anyway, neat! How long did you have to search to find the table?

I did the google search:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UT … on+lentils

It was one of the first links I found.

John Creighton · 2004-08-13 13:15:36

And the big thing is that you would need nearly 900 grams of beans to provide the total food energy RDA for a 174 pound male. This is the big advantage of meat, you get a higher energy/mass ratio. But it may be that in the lower gravity of Mars, the total energy requirements will not be so high.

Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) the amounts of selected nutrients considered adequate to meet the known nutrient needs of healthy people. The RDA are based on scientific knowledge and have been presented by a committee of the Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). The Canadian equivalent is the Recommended Nutrient Intakes. RDA is generally accepted throughout the world as a valid source of information. At least 40 different nations have as well as organisations have published standards similar to the RDA.

http://www.time-to-run.com/nutrition/rd … on/rda.htm

Clearly getting enough calories is not a problem. If beans don't provide enough calories eat rice potatoes, bread, bananas or olives.

Morris · 2004-08-13 15:20:01

Clearly getting enough calories is not a problem. If beans don't provide enough calories eat rice potatoes, bread, bananas or olives.

Yes, variety was what I was getting at. I'll bet the other things on the list are not much more efficient than beans. As a result, settlers on the vegetarian diet would be eating quite a lot in terms of mass. This should help a great deal in dieting because stomachs will be full, unlike a heavy meat diet where you get so many calories for so small a mass that you tend to overeat.

And, regarding flax, yes I think you have found a great source for fats. I think sunflower seeds have good nutrients too. In a previous post, you mentioned high Omega-3 eggs. How do you tell them from ordinary eggs in a store? I assume they have to be fed something different to get the extra Omega-3 in there.

And this brings up the question of fertilizer. We'll probably need lots on Mars and it is fairly bulky and thus expensive to transport. Some of the very earliest research will need to be on how to get as much as possible of the fertilizer components from the Martian regolith and human waste. We also have to determine which of the minerals can be obtained on Mars. We may have to ship in some from Earth but the quantities would be so small that a very modest shipment could last for decades. The big issue would be processing them.

But vitamin and mineral supplements are light. We might be better off just planning on shipping pills in for a few decades until we begin to get a local chemical industry going.

John Creighton · 2004-08-13 15:27:35

In a previous post, you mentioned high Omega-3 eggs. How do you tell them from ordinary eggs in a store? I assume they have to be fed something different to get the extra Omega-3 in there.

I think the feed the chickens’ fish products. Researchers have developed a similar feed for cows. Unfortunate I can buy high omega 3 milk at my grocery store.

Morris · 2004-08-15 09:23:10

most people only need about 15 minutes of sunlight a day to produce enough vitamin D. The omega 3 fatty acids can be taken care of be eating http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/flaxnutT.htm]flax. I don't know how to cook it yet.

However, Vitamin D from sunlight may be a problem on Mars. People can't be on the surface without protective gear. And many people would want faceplates to filter ultraviolet light. I will need to research the wavelengths which produce Vitamin D and their occurrence on Mars.

As far as eating flax is concerned, as you have pointed out, the primary food value is in the seeds. Just salt and eat raw, sprinkle over salads, cook on rolls, etc. And the nice thing is, while you eat the seeds you can make cloth out of the fiber.

Oh, and another issue is salt. For a population of any size, Martian sources will be essential. It is so plentiful here that we hardly think about it, but in some countries in the past it was so valuable that it was used as money. Control of salt production was one of the major issues in India's independence movement in the early part of the 20th century.

John Creighton · 2004-08-17 09:26:10

I thought I would try Microsoft Access to analysis the nutrition and cost of my diet. I created a" Food Entry Table" with the following fields and example entries

ID,
Food, (e.g. Macaroni and Cheese)
Brand (e.g. kraft Dinner)
Price per unit (e.g. about 1$per box)
Unit Size1 (e.g. one box is 225 grams or 4 servings)
Unit Size Units (e.g. grams, or servings)
Unit Size2 (e.g. Nutrition information based on 56 grams)
Energy 195
Units (Calories)
Fat (1.7)
Units2 (grams)
Protein (7.4)
units3 (grams)
Carbohydrate (37)
Units4 (grams)

I want to some how use this information to provide the composition of food. I don't know if I need a table for or query. I tried creating a "Food Composition Table":

DietLogID
Food
Carbohydrates grams per gram
Protein grams per gram
Fat gram per gram
Calories per gram
Sodium gram per gram
Vitamins gram per gram

I want the first table to update the second table. I am not exactly sure how this might be accomplished. I first considered the case where the same brand and package size is bought for each type of food. In this case I thought I could set the value equal to some expression. I wasn't able to do this in the table so I created a form that had the same fields. I tried setting the control property of the "Carbohydrates grams per garm" field to =DLookUp("[Unit Size2]","[Food Entry Table]","[Food] = Forms![Food]") just to get an idea of how expressions work. I didn't get an error but nothing showed up. I clearly don't know what I am doing and I hope someone can give me some hints.

Anyway, once the food composition table is made this table would be used to keep track of diet information. The user could analysis his diet in terms of cost, nutrition, satatisfaction, and possible even the time spent preparing meals. I was thinking if weight and exercise information was included the user estimate a model of how his metabolism and fitness progress various with various life style changes.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-17 11:14:28

Space travel pushes food science forward

Food makers may eventually benefit from imminent food technologies designed to prolong space travel as NASA calls on food scientists to provide food solutions that will enable humans to travel far from Earth – to the Moon or Mars - creating new opportunities for exploration and discovery.

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news … p?id=54171

Morris · 2004-08-17 12:24:12

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news … p?id=54171

Very interesting article. And it is interesting to see how they are using their small business incentive programs.

However, I couldn't resist one quote from the article.

“The first step is to investigate the possibility of preserving foods for more than three months, a criteria for the space station,”said Salzgeber.

Hey, Grandma with her canning jars will be impressed! The ability of modern program administrators to make it seem as if their program is inventing civilization is truly amazing.

Regardless, I am glad to see that NASA is paying attention to this issue now. And the resulting storage process should be fascinating.

John Creighton · 2004-08-17 12:57:29

However, I couldn't resist one quote from the article.
“The first step is to investigate the possibility of preserving foods for more than three months, a criteria for the space station,”said Salzgeber.

Hey, Grandma with her canning jars will be impressed! The ability of modern program administrators to make it seem as if their program is inventing civilization is truly amazing.
Regardless, I am glad to see that NASA is paying attention to this issue now. And the resulting storage process should be fascinating.

Yeah, it is hard to think that three moths is anything magic. I am sure dried food, pickled food and food in the freezer all last much longer. But I guess the real question is how to do this with limited space resources.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-17 13:11:11

You mean something other than freeze dried water required to reconstatute and the tube of tooth paste approach to feeding ones selfe.

John Creighton · 2004-08-17 13:30:52

Come to think of it, I think even yogurt and cheese in the fridge keeps longer then three months (as long as it hasn't been opened). It might say it is expired but in my opinion it is still good to eat. I think if you keep fresh tomatoes dry they will even last three months. The key with tomatoes is don't let any rot from one drip onto another and of course cut off any bad spots. Cheese whiz and peanut butter I am sure will at least keep a year. I once bought a package of fugios that was 10 year old. I ate some, and didn't get sick. Granted I don't want astronauts to live of Fudgious and vitamin pills, but three moths is nothing. BTW does anyone ever though out there canned food out?

Rxke · 2004-08-17 15:57:55

Heh, my dad uses to tell about the food-rations he once got in the army on manouvers(sp?).
Chocolat from WWII... over 20 years old!
It had turned greyish in color but still was perfectly edible...
Some stuff keeps virtually forever, I'd guess, if stored in a dry and dark place.

John Creighton · 2004-08-18 10:07:36

I don't know if anyone is interested but I started a discussion about a diet database at:
http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr … oft.access post

John Creighton · 2004-08-20 13:29:10

TESTING EGG YOLK AND EGG WHITE
..... Interestingly, in the raw food vegetarian cage of mice, when I substituted egg yolk instead of cheese, the growth was even more rapid.
..... And all the books were saying, "Egg yolks, stay away from them. You'll die of cholesterol. They'll give you heart attacks." For me, I considered one egg a good maximum. Two only for emergencies. Even though Dr. Cursio used daily as many as four egg yolks on some patients, their blood pressure dropped steadily. I found the same to be true. Lecithin in egg yolks appears to negate cholesterol deposition in arteries.
When I saw the results with the mice, I changed my opinion about eggs.

http://inhs.ms11.net/diet2.html]This doesn't seem like the most reliable site but I wonder if there is any truth to the Lecithin claim about eggs.

Edit: Let me repharse that and say it sounds like a crackpot site Anyway the question about eggs and colesteral sill reamins.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 08:28:26

How we will feed our crew on the long journey.

Farming for the Future
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/prepar … rming.html

mboeller · 2004-09-01 04:40:42

How we will feed our crew on the long journey.
Farming for the Future
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/prepar … rming.html

farming too:

http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_dwarf.h … _dwarf.htm
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_photobi … otobio.htm
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_hydropo … ponics.htm

SpaceNut · 2004-09-01 08:40:01

Farming For The Future
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetravel-04zv.html

Quote:
But for future long-duration missions and colonies on the Moon or Mars, scientists believe a life support system with a biological component (such as plants)- called a "bioregenerative life support system" - has several benefits.

"If you continually resupply and deliver commodities like food, that will become much more costly than producing your own food," says Ray Wheeler, plant physiologist at Kennedy Space Center's Space Life Sciences Lab. "You can achieve some autonomy with bioregenerative capability."

But developing such a system isn't as simple as planting some fruits, vegetables and wheat in space or on distant planets.

end quote:

All the more reason to do more on the ISS with this in mind for future use for the journeis still yet to come.

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