Post central for information on CEV - iformation station for the spacecraft

Rxke · 2004-05-24 14:00:38

On Slashdot someone commented:

'So their new plan is to wait for the three celestial bodies to line up, and then ride a big slippery slope into the sun? ? ?'

clark · 2004-06-29 14:21:02

Boeing's version of the CEV:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/spa … ml]HISTORY & FUTURE CONCEPTS

Here is another link that explains the different modular approaches:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/spa … s.html]THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF TOMORROW

Here is a link to some NASA explanations related to CEV development and procurement:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=13225]NASA Office of Exploration Systems Concept Exploration and Refinement BAA Questions and Answers

If funding is secured, then winners will be announced in Sept. With a fly off competition in 2008 using a basic boiler plate CEV design. The winner of that will then build the actual human-rated CEV for 2014.

clark · 2004-06-30 08:47:32

Those crazy Ruskies are at it again!

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.htm … m=0]Russia suggests that ESA take part in new spaceship project

It appears that Russia is now intending the Clipper, their second generation Soyuz, to go further than just the ISS...

They are planning on a human carrying capacity of six people, and plan to enable it to venture to Mars.

The FSA chief said, "The Clipper will take the place of the world's most reliable spaceships from the Soyuz family, which get obsolete in both the duration of the use and in components. The Clipper will make it possible to deliver six people to the ISS, not 2-3, as currently is the case. This constitutes the prospect of developing new-generation spaceships, not a shuttle. The Clipper will be adapted not only for flights to the ISS but also for research into the interplanetary space, and expeditions to other planets, including Mars".

Not only that, the chief of the Russian Space Agency is suggesting that a manned Mars mission could conceivably take place before 2020.

The FSA chief is confident that "A manned mission to Mars can be accomplished before 2020. This will require serious preparation and solutions to matters concerning all the three aspects: financing, technical execution, and the training of astronauts and cosmonauts,"

Hyperbole? Or a race in the making?

GCNRevenger · 2004-06-30 08:55:28

Oh pretty much big talk/bluster/etc... The Russians nor the ESA have the required money, technology, or skills for the landing and returning part of the Mars mission.

clark · 2004-06-30 09:03:51

LOL!

No one does GNC.

NASA didn't have the skills or technology for landing on the Moon either- but they figured it out. :;):

It may be talk, but it does fit into Aurora.

BWhite · 2004-06-30 09:39:04

Oh pretty much big talk/bluster/etc... The Russians nor the ESA have the required money, technology, or skills for the landing and returning part of the Mars mission.

Okay, let us speculate. We spread faery dust around the planet and all politics stops. Humanity joins hand to sign kumbaya and head to the stars together.

Funding is freely and cooperatively shared with regard to humanity as a whole, without consideration of national interest. . .

(Yeah, I know, I drank a whole lot of Kool-Aid)

Okay, question:

Which is the less expensive/more capable system?

Clipper based on Soyuz R-7 + liquid upper stage or CEV based on Delta IV?

= = =

Pease read carefully. I enjoy the image of joining hands to sign Kumbaya, at least in a non-PC sort of way.

clark · 2004-06-30 09:52:03

Clipper will be less exspensive, CEV will be more robust.

clark · 2004-06-30 10:04:37

What are the requirements for an on-orbit lifetime of 2+ years?

I guess taking a look at the ISS specs might shed some light (2+ years is what Clipper and CEV would have to achieve for Mars missions).

I might add that Clipper seems to be a big "command module", where as CEV is an entire spectrum of modular pieces meant to work together. Clipper is just one component (at least from the details give thus far).

Euler · 2004-06-30 23:41:47

Oh pretty much big talk/bluster/etc... The Russians nor the ESA have the required money, technology, or skills for the landing and returning part of the Mars mission.

Europe and Russia together have some pretty good technology. Russia is still the most experienced country in terms of long duration human missions and life support. Europe has some good electronics and their rocket engines seem to be outperforming even the latest American competition. Europe and Russia also both have done more work on HAL effect thrusters than the US. The one important technology that America is developing that Europe and Russia haven't AFAIK is a space rated nuclear reactor. However, given the much greater utilization of nuclear power over there, it should not be all that difficult for them to design one. Europe also has a combined GDP larger than America's. It all comes down to political will. If all of the countries commit substantial resources to this project, Europe has a very good chance of beating America to Mars. However, if they cannot all work together, it won't happen.

Rxke · 2004-07-01 02:03:54

Hah, yer puny Americans!

We, the Euro/Russian coalition are ready to kick yer butt!

We'll be on Mars, even before you guys have figured out how to coordinate all yer eyecandy Flashmovies of that mirage, called: CEV!!!

Who needs soft landing or returning equipment? We're going to *skydive* to the surface, and we're going to *stay!*

How's that, eh? Starting to feel a bit uncomfortable, eh? We've got it all figured out, ya see!

WE RULEZZZZ!!!

(Kidding, kidding... Just trying to get some peeps angry enough to start a race, Hatdammit!)

clark · 2004-07-01 09:08:53

CEV = a sensible plan and series of spaceship parts enabiling people to go for extended duration missions beyond LEO.

Clipper = a large Soyuz that is supposed to take you to Mars?

:laugh:

Don't worry, American's will be first, and we'll let you European's argue with the Russians on who get's to be second.

BWhite · 2004-07-01 09:36:30

CEV = a sensible plan and series of spaceship parts enabiling people to go for extended duration missions beyond LEO.
Clipper = a large Soyuz that is supposed to take you to Mars?
:laugh:
Don't worry, American's will be first, and we'll let you European's argue with the Russians on who get's to be second.

The only thing that will take people to Mars is Transhab. A big Transhab with thick plastic walls.

clark · 2004-07-01 11:19:30

I guess Bigelow is going to make a fortune then. He is tying up the patents...

Rxke · 2004-07-01 11:44:57

You can't blame Transhab selling them, what with NASA axxing the work on the transhab virtually overnight... Must've been quite a cold shower for them.

ANTIcarrot. · 2004-07-01 12:22:38

Thing is, NASA didn't cut Transhab, congress did. It was a good idea, and NASA knew it, and good for them. But because it had applications for planetary exploration, it *technically* fell outside of NASA's remit. In practice it was a home goal by politicians who wanted to cut NASA/ISS's budget.

ANTIcarrot.

BWhite · 2004-07-01 12:29:06

Thing is, NASA didn't cut Transhab, congress did. It was a good idea, and NASA knew it, and good for them. But because it had applications for planetary exploration, it *technically* fell outside of NASA's remit. In practice it was a home goal by politicians who wanted to cut NASA/ISS's budget.
ANTIcarrot.

Any information on how TransHab fits into O'Keefe's plans for NASA?

Boeing has some drawings of inflatables yet beyond that do we know anything?

If ISS is to do anything useful, adding an inflatable crew module seems a reasonable use of that facility. If ISS cannot do anything useful, why pay for it?

= = =

In junior high basketball (I was a lousy player btw) we were taught to watch the other player's stomach to avoid head fakes and other feints and diversions.

IMHO, if the "new-NASA" ™ pursues TransHab later rather than sooner, that tells me that the exploration initiative is more show than substance. The reverse is also true.

cDelta · 2004-07-01 12:34:45

If Bigelow provides these inflatable structures to NASA, which I assume they will (as they are superior to the tin-can habitat designs in weight, size, and strength) then it looks as if the commerical aspect of the new space vision is shaping up very nicely. I also seem to remember reading an article somewhere saying that Bigelow actually already HAD a contract to supply these to NASA..but I don't recall where I saw it.

If the owner of a hotel chain can supply NASA with hardware, then anyone can! This definitely is a step in the right direction. Now, if only Mr. Hilton would start investing in that Lunar Hotel...

clark · 2004-07-01 12:36:47

Any information on how TransHab fits into O'Keefe's plans for NASA?

Yeah, as part of the CEV requirements, either provided by a private interest seperately, or by one of the CEV builders themselves. NASA lists the requirements, people bid.

Of course this seems a rather forgone conclusion in this case.

If ISS is to do anything useful, adding an inflatable crew module seems a reasonable use of that facility.

That would be great! Now figure out how to do it without a Shuttle Mission. Without adding any additional pressure on the Shuttle.

ISS is going to be pared back, not expanded.

If ISS cannot do anything useful, why pay for it?

Buyer beware. Seriously, we made a commitment here, we can't just walk away. American divorce rates aside, it dosen't make for a happy space family.

cDelta · 2004-07-01 12:41:12

Here's that article mentioned in my above post:
http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp … v=168XDWn7

"The Bigelow Aerospace company has signed an agreement with NASA. . ."

and...

Is it accurate to say that NASA is putting all of its eggs into the Bigelow basket?
"In a way, it is. It has given up on its own habitat program and has turned over its patents to Bigelow Aerospace alone. Other private companies are working on launch vehicles and return vehicles. But this is the only company working on inflatable habitat, so there is a lot riding on the work underway just down the road. . ."

Rxke · 2004-07-01 13:45:42

Thanks a lot for tat link, cDelta!

(News on Bigelow seems a bit elusive, sometimes...)

Now those pictures... The first one is definitely at NASA, another one also, IIRC... But that one showing the interior? Tantalising, to say the least. How far are they really, I wonder...

clark · 2004-07-01 13:50:03

They are slated to launch on the Falcon V sometime in Nov. 2005. The first one going up is a 1/3 scale model weighing about 3000 lbs named genesis (IIRC). There is also talk of a second model going up in April 2006 (this one would be similar, but slightly different than the first).

The actual full scale model is called Nautilus, and is expected to weigh 40-50,000 pounds. Bigelow is already working out a deal to use Dnper rockets (Satan russian ICMB's) for the Nautilus. One of these things will provide 2/3rd of the exsisting ISS space.

He owns two patents related to the inflatable technology, and another one related to heat shields. His long term goal is to build a crusie ship by 2015.

Here are his related patents:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars … Integrated translation tube assembly for a space module

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars … ]Apparatus for spacecraft thermal management

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars … Spacecraft sleeping berth

cDelta · 2004-07-01 13:57:42

No problem, Rxke. I remember reading that a while ago and getting really excited. I had no idea that development was so far along!

I can't tell whether the fourth photo down on that site is a rendering or not. If not, I wonder if it's actual working hardware, or just a mockup?

Clark, where did you hear about his goal to build a cruise ship? That sounds very interesting. Maybe there is in fact a new space race, but this time between the private sector and the US Govt.

clark · 2004-07-01 14:06:36

How do I put this delicately?

The guy is a bit of a nut job. noooooo... let me try again.

Fruitcake? No, that, won't do. Ummm. Oh, I got it, he has that unique quality and quirk of being absolutely crazy, and having lots of money.

Some call people like this eccentrics. Others, visionaries. Whatever.

Here ya go:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.01 … .html]Book Me a Double - With a View of Venus

http://www.asi.org/adb/06/09/04/1999/07 … tml]Robert T. Bigelow Pledges $500 million for Developement of Translunar Cruise Ship

There's a bunch of other articles I've found- some on space.com, others on wired not listed here, and then randomly. Google in key words realted to Trans Hab, Nautilus, Robert Bigelow- look into his support of paranormal research, etc.

The guy isn't really that crazy, he just has the means to indulge himself. Afterall, I might do the same thing if I were in his shoes.

cDelta · 2004-07-01 14:11:57

Hey, if a nut job can get us cruising to the moon in style, then I'm all for it!

Thanks for the links. If this doesn't pan out, like the majority of ideas in the nascent space industry, I am going to be very upset. But as you said, he has LOTS of money, and actual "Transhab" hardware.

Rxke · 2004-07-01 14:13:35

Hmm, yes Bigelow is somewhat 'special,' isn't he?

But so are a lot of other rich guys, as long as they have a good team, it might very well amount to something.

He's being taken seriously by a lot of people in te industry, so...

I'm sceptic about paranormal stuff, too, but the russians did experiments in orbit, on the subject, too... and build great stuff, so it might be a good trait, when being in that business no?

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Re: Post central for information on CEV - iformation station for the spacecraft

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