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#26 2004-06-16 20:01:20

atitarev
Member
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2003-05-16
Posts: 203

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Slightly off-topic. I would go to live on Mars if given a chance - I only have one concern - what if some idiot decides to violently take power on Mars and turn everyone into slaves or similar. Even volunteers that go to Mars could be crazy, you never know. The human factor bothers me more than the natural difficulties.

*I've thought about that too. 

--Cindy  sad

Hi Cindy smile
This possibility can't be excluded. The Total Recall movie with Schwarzenegger is an example of what could happen. Earth is too far away - cops can't reach you.


Anatoli Titarev

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#27 2004-06-17 01:59:19

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Slightly off-topic. I would go to live on Mars if given a chance - I only have one concern - what if some idiot decides to violently take power on Mars and turn everyone into slaves or similar. Even volunteers that go to Mars could be crazy, you never know. The human factor bothers me more than the natural difficulties. The police should be created in the very first steps of the colonization.

You mean if NASA would send 50 astronauts and one starts a martian cult to which 25 of the others join. Now they don't want to go back to Earth and don't take orders anymore from Earth.

Well that could be a problem tongue. Houston we have a problem.

Hey didn't the US start this way? Didn't they show the middle finger to the British?


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

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#28 2004-06-17 02:50:37

atitarev
Member
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2003-05-16
Posts: 203

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Slightly off-topic. I would go to live on Mars if given a chance - I only have one concern - what if some idiot decides to violently take power on Mars and turn everyone into slaves or similar. Even volunteers that go to Mars could be crazy, you never know. The human factor bothers me more than the natural difficulties. The police should be created in the very first steps of the colonization.

You mean if NASA would send 50 astronauts and one starts a martian cult to which 25 of the others join. Now they don't want to go back to Earth and don't take orders anymore from Earth.

Well that could be a problem tongue. Houston we have a problem.

Hey didn't the US start this way? Didn't they show the middle finger to the British?

No, I didn't mean that. This scenario is very likely to happen sooner or later - I meant when someone takes control of say, a dome and decides who will breathe and who will die. If you watched the Total Recall, you know what I mean. The independence movement is one thing but if someone usurps the power they are already given - it's worse. A vicious person could do a lot of damage, that's why I think we should stay away from sending inmates to Mars.


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#29 2004-06-17 04:34:17

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Basically you mean what if a dictator takes over?


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

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#30 2004-06-17 05:11:45

atitarev
Member
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2003-05-16
Posts: 203

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Basically you mean what if a dictator takes over?

Yes.

Even independence movement could take different shapes. Whatever the cause, often innocent people die because of the "freedom fighters".

I agree with MarsDog and ecrasez_l_infame - we want nice people on Mars. I wonder if candidates should be screened not only for their character but for political views?


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#31 2004-06-17 06:38:21

Grypd
Member
From: Scotland, Europe
Registered: 2004-06-07
Posts: 1,879

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Well to protect the people and fledgling institutions on mars it will be necessity to have created some form of police force.

why
1) As the population increases there will be crime, no state has managed to get rid of it.

2) The Domes may well become the equivalent of the gold rushes ie a bit lawless and rough places and it was to be noted the establishment of Law that civilized the frontiers

3) As stated this police will protect the citizen his rights reduce "Claim" jumping and allow an accused a fair trial. If not there will be a tendency to have the accused take a walk outside without his spacesuit "modern" lynch mob mentality.

4) These police could also act as the equivalent of the coastquard ie a rescue capable authority that would in the case of disaster have the power and resources to act to save life.

Saying that establishing a police force will entail some serious political consideration and treaties. Legal systems are different from country to country and for this police to be effective they must have laws that all must obey or be party too. They must also have there mandate Clearly stated this will reduce some future dictators power grab by trying to turn them into his own army. So this police force will act as an agency to decrease crime and to persue arrest wrongdoers in a wild and dangerous enviroment. An example of a similar type police force is Canadian police of the 19th century the mounties.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#32 2004-06-17 14:15:54

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

I agree with MarsDog and ecrasez_l_infame - we want nice people on Mars. I wonder if candidates
should be screened not only for their character but for political views?

Do you think a canidate will say that he likes dictators? That he is for a single party system? That he thinks his views are better?

People can lie and they will.

Also a lot of dictators and serial killers came from normal middle class families.

The best thing is to send a lot of different people. Balkanize Mars and there will not be one strong faction. However don't make them live in there own domes. Mix em up and have a strong communications network (making the world (Mars) smaller) and make people identify with each other.

Basically people on Mars from different backgrounds, different goals, freedom of speech, freedom of culture (balkan).


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

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#33 2004-06-17 14:28:52

atitarev
Member
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2003-05-16
Posts: 203

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

I hope we won't have big security and safety problems right at the start of colonization, we just need all these precautions and be aware of all possibilities.

The sooner Mars is terraformed - the better: less dependency on domes, oxygen supply, etc.


Anatoli Titarev

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#34 2004-06-18 01:09:08

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

I hope we won't have big security and safety problems right at the start of colonization, we just need all these precautions and be aware of all possibilities.

Screening people has worked well for the submarine crews.  No matter what the rules are, certain people will cause trouble. There are tests to eliminate dangerous personalities.
-
And if a psychopath slips by, hopefully, he will be constrained, as a mental patient in Japan can be, inside a paper walled room.

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#35 2020-02-16 13:00:52

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

topic fixed for artifacts from conversion software changes

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#36 2020-02-16 13:59:11

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Any convict traffic will be the other way round!


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#37 2020-02-17 11:38:33

Terraformer
Member
From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,800
Website

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

louis wrote:

Any convict traffic will be the other way round!

Not if they're Martian-born. No country will be willing to take Mars' ne'er-do-wells. Deporting foreigners is one thing, but you don't get to deport your own citizens (unless, perhaps, they're dual citizens)


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#38 2020-02-17 13:10:15

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,781
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Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Terraformer wrote:

Not if they're Martian-born. No country will be willing to take Mars' ne'er-do-wells. Deporting foreigners is one thing, but you don't get to deport your own citizens (unless, perhaps, they're dual citizens)

Dual citizenship is not a good idea. In the early days of the United States, they sent settlers into states and territories of Mexico. When enough American settlers were there, they incited those settlers to revolt and claim they're part of the US. Once the uprising started, the US sent the army to support the settlers. They took Texas and California from Mexico this way. Mexico used to include New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, and the western half of Colorado. Mexican states did not have the same borders as US states today. Mexico also claimed but did not have significant settlements in Oregon and Idaho, but so did Britain; I'm less clear about how they became part of the US. So a new national government of Mars would not allow immigrants to retain citizenship with their old country on Earth; that would invite problems.

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#39 2020-02-17 15:32:49

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,352

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

An expensive way of dealing with low life that you want rid of.  Martian colonists will need to be highly productive, as it will cost a small fortune keeping them alive.  Most of the donkey work these days is done by machines.  Humans will be there to repair and control the machines.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-02-17 15:33:16)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#40 2020-02-17 15:49:29

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

The only reason that I see for sending convicted fellons to mars is if they are expendable. That is there sentence for the crime was death, learn to be honorable and survive or die as that is your sentence.

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#41 2020-02-17 18:14:13

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,746

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

For SpaceNut re this topic ... this is a topic I feel was not worth resurrecting.

This was a topic that was best left back in 2004, as far as I'm concerned.

(th)

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#42 2020-02-17 18:24:32

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,352

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re this topic ... this is a topic I feel was not worth resurrecting.

This was a topic that was best left back in 2004, as far as I'm concerned.

(th)

Indeed.  Britain has a long history of using petty criminals as sources of slave labour.  British convicts were sent to the Caribbean and Virginia, long before the African slave trade got started.  They provided low skill agricultural labour, harvesting cotton, tobacco and sugar, essentially as indentured labourers.  It is hard to see any similar applications in space.  Most physical work will be done by machines.  Where humans are involved at all, the colony will need high skill labour, like CNC machinists or mechanics.  It simply won't be economically practical to use a human to do the sort of work that machines will be doing.  Machines do not need to breath and never get hungry and need to eat.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#43 2020-02-17 19:03:13

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Agreed! Along with a few others that really were of interest only at the time. We now have Space X roaring ahead with a real Mars Mission. That should be the focus.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re this topic ... this is a topic I feel was not worth resurrecting.

This was a topic that was best left back in 2004, as far as I'm concerned.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#44 2020-02-17 19:57:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

What we have all come to agree on without saying it is that there is no need or desire to use this action for mars for any reason.

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#45 2021-05-23 15:40:43

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

I think sending prisoners to Mars would be a terrible idea but I do not fear discussion even if the topic sometimes ridiculous

Did China hint at anything about a future Chinese colony?

'Elon’ would lead humans on Mars, legendary rocket scientist Wernher von Braun predicted in 1953 book
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/ … -1953-book

How Exactly Did Australia Become a Penal Colony? –
https://patarnews.com/top-documentary/h … nal-colony

A famous penal colony was Devil's Island in French Guiana, the British Empire used colonies in North America as penal colonies. After the American Revolution, Britain had to find somewhere else to send its prisoners. They established Sydney, Norfolk Island, Van Diemen's Land and Western Australia as big penal colonies. In colonial India, the British had made various penal colonies. Two of the most infamous ones are on the Andaman islands and Hijli Detention Camp. In the early days of settlement, Singapore was sent Indian convicts.

Musk proclaims himself Emperor of Mars ...or more like 'Imperator' from a sciifi show or video game?
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/369870

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-05-23 16:13:05)

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#46 2021-05-23 17:36:50

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

It's a bad idea. In Australia prisoners were used in simple forced labour tasks and then freed to farm. On Mars we need mostly people with high level skills and we can't afford to have any nihilistic elements or people who can't act with self-discipline. People are expected to behave with quite a high level of self-discipline in other dangerous environments e.g. pressurised aircrafts or ships at sea. Behaviour that endangers everyone else cannot be accepted.

For better or worse, Mars is going to be a different type of metropolis from the sort we are used to on Earth. People with criminal traits will simply be returned to Earth.

Over time, it may become more like Earth, because it won't be able to "export" its problems back to Earth.

Last edited by louis (2021-05-23 17:37:19)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#47 2021-05-25 09:47:38

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,366

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

The very worst people to import to Mars would be Politicians. They would ruin everything.

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#48 2022-06-25 18:36:29

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

The penal colony was typically a settlement used to exile prisoners or send away troublesome person and separate them from the general populace by placing them in a remote location, often an island or distant colonial territory. The British, French, and other colonial empires heavily used North America, sometimes almost employing an almost salve labor type servitude and expanding the Empire other parts of the world as penal colonies to varying degrees, Bermuda, off the North American continent, was also used during the Victorian period.  Devil's Island in French Guiana, received prisoner jailed forgers and other criminals. Ecuador has used islands in the Galapagos archipelago as penal colonies for example Isabela Island, Argentina had a penal colony in Ushuaia, Tierra del Fuego, in the Patagonia region, the DPRK or North Korea still operates a penal system including prison labor camps and re-education camps. The French colony of New Caledonia and its Isle of Pines in Melanesia received transported dissidents like the Communards. The Prisoner and British convicts housed in hulks were used to build the Royal Naval Dockyard, Andaman islands and Hijli have been described as terrible ones and n the early days of settlement, Singapore was the settled and recipient of foreign alien Hindu Indian convicts, some number of 50,000 British convicts were sent to the Americas by prisoner path and the majority landed in the Chesapeake Colonies of Maryland and Virginia.

Supreme Court sides with inmate who wants to die by firing squad
https://www.wlwt.com/article/supreme-co … d/40392199

old thread
'Crime and Punishment - Speculation'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2795

Oldfart1939 wrote:

The very worst people to import to Mars would be Politicians. They would ruin everything.

There has also been discussion of personality types for Mars I try bump a thread during the week if I see any psychology news, will see if I can find the discussion

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-26 10:04:10)

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#49 2022-06-26 08:55:28

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,352

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Sending criminals to Mars is just about the worst idea I can imagine.  It is a place where everyone needs to be a strong team player, prepared to work long hours under difficult conditions for the good of the colony.  Criminals are by definition selfish and don't play by the rules.  They are not team players, which is why they are criminal.  That is what criminal means - they aren't prepared to work within the rules.

Mars isn't like Australia, where you can knock up a homestead and farm sheep.  There, you can grow food in the dirt.  You can breath free air.  Access free water.  There is wood to build with.  Even native animals to eat.  Mars is nothing like Australia or the Wild West.  It will take a lot of technology and a lot of cooperative effort just to survive there.  It is also exactly the sort of place that is going to aggrovate any latent mental problems they people may be concealing.  Living underground in a confined space with loads of other people you can't get away from, is really asking for trouble if those people are mentally fragile and lack self-discipline.  Most criminals have mental disorders.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#50 2022-08-10 06:33:00

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,892

Re: Send inmates to mars - like in australia

Sending your troublesome Hollywood Celeb to Mars?

When hollywood goes weird?

For a while he wanted to be called a deity, Steven Seagal, rumors say there is some kind of scam so the actor paid Dalai Lama to say he was a reincarnated lama and sacred vessel of China Eurasia Tibetan Asia Buddhism?

Steven Seagal appears in Ukraine, serving as a Russian spokesperson.
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/ … kesperson/

ulau Senang is an 81.7-hectare (202-acre) coral-formed island in the Republic of Singapore, located about 13 kilometres (8.1 mi) off the southern coast of the main island of Singapore. Along with Pulau Pawai to the northwest and Pulau Sudong further behind Pulau Pawai, it is used as a military training area for live-fire exercises carried out by the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF). Pulau Senang is best known in the history of Singapore as the location of a former experimental offshore penal settlement that failed after only three years when an infamous riot against the small unit of prison authority (no more than 10) broke out in 1963, resulting in the death of three officers, including the overall prison-chief.
n 1960, an experimental-type offshore penal colony was established on Pulau Senang by the Singapore government. On the island, the prisoners, predominantly gangsters, were allowed to roam freely and were put to manual labour
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ … rison-riot
It was envisioned that these hardened detainees could be reformed through hard work and be sent back home with an ability to seek employment afterwards.

Inside a Russian penal colony
https://unherd.com/2021/03/inside-a-rus … al-colony/
Alexander Navalny is about to discover that the spirit of Stalin's gulags is alive and well

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-10 06:33:57)

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