The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

GCNRevenger · 2004-08-27 08:43:29

1) Yes solar arrays are a potential way to provide light to the Moon and keep the power flowing. This is technology that when pioneered on the Moon would be used where next, Mars.

Keep in mind that the Moon doesn't really have a luna-stationary orbit persay only Lagrange points, and I don't know if you can park a Lunar-orbit solar array over the dark side.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-27 11:22:44

Grypd: Are you thinking solar reflector re-directors or are you thinking of solar cell collecting and beaming of the energy to the moon via microwave band.

TwinBeam · 2004-08-27 13:59:47

Arguments about technical advantages of the moon or Mars are fun but they don't really matter.

Until there is an economic motivation to go into space, all that really matters is politics and getting costs down. The former because that's where the money will come from, the latter because lower costs will hasten the time when there are good economic reasons to go into space.

Much as I'd rather see people exploring and colonizing and terraforming Mars - given an unlimited budget - establishing a moonbase is politically and economically smarter.

(a.) politically it already has support - any attempt to "switch to Mars" risks killing the deal entirely.

(b.) we can send missions to the moon much more frequently, at lower cost per mission - getting costs down by re-using vehicles left in orbit more frequently, etc.

(c.) telerobotics can be (should be) used to pave the way, with direct control from Earth at first. Again - keeping costs down. This also answers the "robots instead of men" faction, but leverages them to the side of manned exploration by putting humans in control of the robots - with demonstrably superior results when the humans are close to the robots.

(d.) Even if the benefits of a moonbase are smaller than the potential benefits of even a one-shot Mars mission, they'll be gotten much sooner. Sooner is infinitely better when it comes to politics.

The main political benefit Mars has is that it might create greater excitement and voter support - but that has to be spread over a much longer span of time, and applied to far fewer missions. It's a prescription for 'flags and rock samples and don't go back'.

Mars has far more economic/cost-saving potential *in the long run* - but again, politics is all about the short run. Until we're ready to set up a permanent colony/base on Mars, about the only economic benefit Mars gets us is a cheaper ride home (in situ fuel production) - but if that ride is far more expensive in the first place, that isn't a net benefit.

I reluctantly come down on the "moon first" side, in hopes that it will mean a permanent manned presence in space, with a Mars mission hopefully delayed by no more than another 15 years.

Dook · 2004-08-27 14:36:09

What's the point of simply having a manned human presence in space? The Russians have stranded many of their cosmonauts on space stations over the years and for what? We get little science benefit, maybe long term low gravity exposure but that's about all. So what is the point in having a moon base? To build cycler ships so we can then strand even more people on mars or an asteroid? For what good purpose?

The whole purpose of space exploration is to conduct science and not to abandon the earth.

John Creighton · 2004-08-27 14:44:06

The whole purpose of space exploration is to conduct science and not to abandon the earth.

Says you.

John Creighton · 2004-08-27 14:47:13

To build cycler ships so we can then strand even more people on mars or an asteroid?

Man... ??? I hate beeing stranded on earth :bars2: .
ET go home ???

John Creighton · 2004-08-27 14:53:35

What's the point of simply having a manned human presence in space? The Russians have stranded many of their cosmonauts on space stations over the years and for what? We get little science benefit, maybe long term low gravity exposure but that's about all. So what is the point in having a moon base? To build cycler ships so we can then strand even more people on mars or an asteroid? For what good purpose?

Anyway, for what it is worth, I think the benefits of past manned space accomplishments are often understated. Granted the unmanned space activities have been much more efficient. Still science and technology aside I think it is a noble exercise to go practice living in space. Lay down some shelters, plant some flags make some footprints or maybe just cruse in LEO some. We learn a little it keeps us from forgetting what we know. We get practice planning. Then one day when we have the right mix of technology to settle somewhere else in a relatively cheep fashion we stoked and ready to go. But hay for now hopfully we can all agree to send some robots and wether they do science or build a base can be argued about on a latter date. The key is versitility.

Dook · 2004-08-27 14:56:24

So you believe our purpose should be to get off this place as quick as possible? Send masses of people to far off lands where they have to live out their lives inside ships, domes or caves? That is a lesser quality of life and who would choose it? Only those with NO quality of life here on the earth-losers!

Astronauts and scientists accept the hardship and risk with the hope of discovering something new. What is your purpose?

John Creighton · 2004-08-27 15:18:09

So you believe our purpose should be to get off this place as quick as possible? Send masses of people to far off lands where they have to live out their lives inside ships, domes or caves? That is a lesser quality of life and who would choose it? Only those with NO quality of life here on the earth-losers!
Astronauts and scientists accept the hardship and risk with the hope of discovering something new. What is your purpose?

I suppose it depends if the domes and caves are crowded and the level of automation to take care of daily tasks. Clearly, if we go early we may not have the technology to provide all of the comforts of earth. If we wait long enough it may not be the case of who would choose such a life but who would be allowed the pleasure. For space is full of land and recourses that no one owns. Imagine that you had the machinery do with that as you wish.

Grypd · 2004-08-27 15:40:16

1) Yes solar arrays are a potential way to provide light to the Moon and keep the power flowing. This is technology that when pioneered on the Moon would be used where next, Mars.
Keep in mind that the Moon doesn't really have a luna-stationary orbit persay only Lagrange points, and I don't know if you can park a Lunar-orbit solar array over the dark side.

I dont really plan to have large reflective satelites on the Far side of the Moon it would not really be necassary if we have power supplies around the Moon. Especially if we can get superconductors to work on the Moon. And I think the first solettas will be reflective light with actual power generation and transmission to come later. Actually if we can do this we have a decent SPS and this can be used to power missions further out like Mars. Also I can hear the astronomers scream if they have large bright things over there brand new telescopes!

And for those who have not noticed we all live in Man made caves what are houses. We can go out and create homes that resemble what we want and go further turn planets into what we want, this is progress.

Dook · 2004-08-27 16:20:34

And for those who have not noticed we all live in Man made caves what are houses. We can go out and create homes that resemble what we want and go further turn planets into what we want, this is progress.

Who lives in these man made caves and never goes outside to hike a country trail? Who doesn't put their hand out the car window to feel the wind?

I guess you just never noticed those things. That's sad.

Once mars is terraformed I think there will be flocks of people heading there but not before simply because there is no reason for them to go there.

There once was an old lady who built a giant house. In this house there were stairs leading to walls with no doors, doors that opened to no room, rooms without ceilings. She kept the carpenters building until she died. That was progress too.

John Creighton · 2004-08-27 16:36:09

Who lives in these man made caves and never goes outside to hike a country trail?

There are lots of lazy people that don't hike.

Who doesn't put their hand out the car window to feel the wind?

Bums without cars I guess.

Once mars is terraformed I think there will be flocks of people heading there but not before simply because there is no reason for them to go there.

Ahh, the people living in mars before it is terraformed might not let it happen.

There once was an old lady who built a giant house. In this house there were stairs leading to walls with no doors, doors that opened to no room, rooms without ceilings. She kept the carpenters building until she died. That was progress too.

Well it is certialy better the living on the street. I bet she was very rich. I hope her house had a gym and a pool.

Grypd · 2004-08-27 18:50:38

Who lives in these man made caves and never goes outside to hike a country trail? Who doesn't put their hand out the car window to feel the wind?
I guess you just never noticed those things. That's sad.
Once mars is terraformed I think there will be flocks of people heading there but not before simply because there is no reason for them to go there.

You see we dont have to have a terraformed planet just so we can make a beautiful place to live. In Britain we have a collection of domes called the Eden project, Each dome has a different climate zone and the plants that live within are visited by hundreds of thousands each year. This can easily be done in space and actually it is recomended that we do we need people who are happy and balanced working out there not factory automatons.

And how do you propose to terraform a planet without people there to do the job and when you do how do you get them there without a built up infrastructure. You may want to terraform and then colonise a planet but im sorry you have to do the work first. And that reguires we build machines and bases and large amounts of people working on the problems there are to fix. And if you think im going to live in a gray cave cell when I could build a base with plants and open spaces like a mall then sorry your wrong.

comstar03 · 2004-08-27 19:10:52

deagleninja,

I think I was taken incorrectly, I mean that we use the moon to be our forward construction dock for spacecrafts large and small, a place for training, and supplies, The crews would be from earth personnel, either from earth or LEO Platforms, or Moonbase. The crew need to meet the specifications for life on Mars and be able to function there.

I see that the debate has been focused on Moon a better choice then going to direct to Mars. In order to reduce the overall costs of re-supply and development for space exploration we need to build ( in military terms - beach heads in space ) operational centres either as orbiting platforms or ground bases on moon/s or asteroids.

The first major base should be personnel orbiting platform. ( providing Artifical Gravity through rotation ) Limits the use of personnel from earth and adds the long term development of space for humanity.

Secondly, we can then build scientific and industrial platforms in LEO for government and private enterprises researchers / scientists. This is where we are developing cargo / personnel transporters for the moon. We could assembly and park in proximity of the industrial platform ready to move to the moon on mass to start development of the moon, into an industrial complex for human space expansion.

The first uses of telerobotics is the assembly of the cargo transporters in Low Earth Orbit, providing experience for operators before landing on the moon for development work. The provide contractors for the telerobotics can sub-contractor to other companies or governments to build other vessels or platforms in LEO. This is providing economic growth from LEO and eventually from the Moon.

When the Moonbase and spacedock is assembled, we commence development of the first Three vessels from the spacedock ( One unmanned explorer vessel for carrying a large volume of droids, probes, and satellites; Two large cargo transport vessels for moving of largeer cargo modules for inner sphere transports ( Earth - Jupiter ) Other smaller vehicles for lunar transit vehicles, transfer vehicles and other vehciles are also under development at the small time.

When we are developing the large spacecrafts, we are sending a smaller vehicles to mars with the first marsbase personnel and components to establish a small base, these personnel are not coming from the moon but from LEO platform position.

The first large vessel completed would be the explorer vessel to be launch to explore all our solarsystem and deposit navigation and communication satellites across the solar system and at the same time deposit droids and probes throughout the solar system to analyze all the planets and moons this data will be coming in over the next several decades will the human expansion moves forward.

These are just a small insight of what could happen if we follow a strict and systematic approach to expansion of humanity into space and not just have a simple goal of moon or mars or beyond.

The Moon is used to the second phase with the large scale movement of cargo, settlement modules and personnel.

Dook · 2004-08-27 19:33:22

Reply to John Creighton's post: So you think we should send lazy bums to mars so they can provide the skilled labor needed? The losers? The homeless? Maybe prisoners? Those are the ones you want to strand on mars and you then expect them to create a paradise?

Reply to Grypd: How many people do you need to operate a giant mirror in space directing sunlight onto mars? I'm sure in a hundred years after we've sufficiently explored mars and we then decide to make the attempt at terraforming there will be automated nuclear power plants that will require very little maintenance. We have them now but I think their max output is only around 80kw.

The moon is not a better choice than going direct to mars.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-27 21:06:09

One big shot to mars direct just little more than flags and foot prints due mostly to travel time and the overly cautious Nasa at this time. Not to mention insufficient funds to build with while both the shuttle and the ISS are in use. Lowering costs for the ISS and for shuttle use is a must.

comstar03 · 2004-08-28 01:41:55

SpaceNut, you are right, we need a 1/3 cost reusable vehicle (600 $M - Manufacturing ) for personnel only into orbit ( up to 20+ personnel transporter ) and we work on alternatives for cargo into orbit - designed for one way travel built with fully recyclable modules. The reusable vehicle must land on conventional airfields, with limited ground support mechanisms.

Then expand the use of the reusable personnel transporters into space station crew and space tourists, and we could then use the tourist payment to reduce the budget for space launches, thus more launches could happen.

Also shows that anyone could go into space and that is normal to travel into space, thus expanding public's concept of space and bringing it in touch of people.

This would have to happen in a broad marketing and public relations operations that would broadcast to the general public.

Grypd · 2004-08-28 03:05:10

Reply to Grypd: How many people do you need to operate a giant mirror in space directing sunlight onto mars? I'm sure in a hundred years after we've sufficiently explored mars and we then decide to make the attempt at terraforming there will be automated nuclear power plants that will require very little maintenance. We have them now but I think their max output is only around 80kw.
The moon is not a better choice than going direct to mars.

I have no intention of having any crew on the soletta mirrors at all, We dont need them they are just satelites which I admit are bigger than normal but thats all. Automatic station keeping programs can run them just fine. If we decide that we want a terraformed Mars then we need to provide the support to do it and that the Moon can do. If we want to have Mass colonisation then again we need the Moon to ensure it will happen. Dook, I know you believe space should be left just for science then im sorry but the majority of this society want to actually live on Mars and this seems to be the best way to develop the means to do so. If we go to Mars just to do science I quarantee that the program will get cancelled after a few missions as politicians remove the funds to put the cash somewhere else. This is what happened to Apollo and this is what will happen to Mars direct. If we send people to live on Mars you can not abandon the colony without a strong public backlash.

So going to the Moon first is the best idea.

John Creighton · 2004-08-28 18:38:49

Reply to John Creighton's post: So you think we should send lazy bums to mars so they can provide the skilled labor needed? The losers? The homeless? Maybe prisoners? Those are the ones you want to strand on mars and you then expect them to create a paradise?

No, I would try to create the habitat remotely and/or though AI. As far as who goes that is politics but some skills and ambition could come in handy to aid the automation.

Dook · 2004-08-28 20:46:25

Dook, I know you believe space should be left just for science then im sorry but the majority of this society want to actually live on Mars and this seems to be the best way to develop the means to do so. If we go to Mars just to do science I quarantee that the program will get cancelled after a few missions as politicians remove the funds to put the cash somewhere else. This is what happened to Apollo and this is what will happen to Mars direct. If we send people to live on Mars you can not abandon the colony without a strong public backlash.
So going to the Moon first is the best idea.

I don't believe that space should just be left for science but with our current technology there is no rational reason to attempt colonization of any space body. In the future I'm sure we will go much farther.

As far as the majority of this society wanting to actually live on mars I wonder. I will create a poll so we can really see. Do they want to live in a small dome until the day they die?

Any space program is subject to being cancelled after a few missions, the moon, mars, deep space, it doesn't matter.

Once again, going to the moon is the best idea for the Moon Society, not the Mars Society.

John Creighton · 2004-08-28 20:59:21

As far as the majority of this society wanting to actually live on mars I wonder. I will create a poll so we can really see. Do they want to live in a small dome until the day they die?

Typical polster aranging the questions to get the result you want. Ask would you move to mars for a better job.

Dook · 2004-08-28 22:49:01

So you want to lure people there with money? Yeah, that will work if you offer enough but then what would they do with all that money on mars?

Grypd believes that most mars society members want to live on mars. I'm just trying to find out if that is so. People can post if money or other is reason enough for them to go.

comstar03 · 2004-08-29 01:59:31

Some of you should read the lastest software developments from microsoft and others, We will be able to build 64 bit Team environment software commencing 2006 using commercial software tools. You can design software control systems that could be integrated with Window embedded platforms that could control the entire droid or robotic unit.

I remember a liquid-based joint system that doesn't need the hydraulic ram, to provide the same strength, and it could be designed for fingers joints for artifical limbs or robotic joints, and they can be very precise because it is controlled by a voltage regulator. Two pieces of a telerobotic workforce, It can happening very rapidly.

This first development, complete on the moon by 2015, ready to occupy for space developments and scientific research commencing by 2015-2020. In 2018 the first major move towards mars would take place with remote site preparation vehicles be sent to mars to prep for the human mars installation to come 2022, and 2025 second small exploration party to mars, then in 2027-2030 the major mars settlement modules are sent from cargo transports on the moon and a personnel transport launch at the same time to mars with 50+100 personnel, while a second personnel transport is under construction for more movement.

2015- onwards, more resources are development for earth and earth orbit requirements from facilities on the moon, expand development facilities for lunar resources to meet demand as exploration expands.

New technologies are development on private orbital platforms in earth orbit, space power platform fabrication developments on moon ( large contract with power provider throughout the world. )

You can see it can snowball, and it only needs a well positioned strategy for a private corporation / consortium.

deagleninja · 2004-08-29 03:09:50

I think an important fact that most Moon enthusiaist miss is that going to Mars makes a lot of their dreams for the Moon more realistic. The Moon is still the 'high frontier' becuase we have gone no further. A successful mission or two to Mars would alter the public's perceptions towards the Moon, making it seem much more realistic to build hotels or other structures there. And that change in attitude means more funding raising for said projects.

comstar03 · 2004-08-29 06:48:14

deagleninja,

No it doesn't, because earth requires large spacedock facilities, before going to the mars, earth orbit can not provide the low cost alternative the moon can provide. I understand what you think might be a great idea for glory but its not practical for long term development because the public wants value for money, and long term return as well.

I think you need to re- assess your thoughts, because the public won't accept a small mission to mars like the apollo program after we did once then they wanted to know more, and the costs are going to be to high, if we don't have the resources coming from the moon. We don't do a wagon trail to mars, it won't work.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#126 2004-08-27 08:43:29

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#127 2004-08-27 11:22:44

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#128 2004-08-27 13:59:47

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#129 2004-08-27 14:36:09

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#130 2004-08-27 14:44:06

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#131 2004-08-27 14:47:13

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#132 2004-08-27 14:53:35

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#133 2004-08-27 14:56:24

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#134 2004-08-27 15:18:09

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#135 2004-08-27 15:40:16

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#136 2004-08-27 16:20:34

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#137 2004-08-27 16:36:09

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#138 2004-08-27 18:50:38

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#139 2004-08-27 19:10:52

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#140 2004-08-27 19:33:22

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#141 2004-08-27 21:06:09

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#142 2004-08-28 01:41:55

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#143 2004-08-28 03:05:10

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#144 2004-08-28 18:38:49

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#145 2004-08-28 20:46:25

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#146 2004-08-28 20:59:21

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#147 2004-08-28 22:49:01

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#148 2004-08-29 01:59:31

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#149 2004-08-29 03:09:50

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