The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

quasar777 · 2004-09-15 07:16:56

The US tries to take care of practically the whole world. Can the US continue to do this or will it break us?

comstar03 · 2004-09-15 07:42:00

quasar777,

I am not talking about the whole world, but American interests , including getting the resources necessary for the country's needs not the whole world.

You want in , then you pay to get on the ride, if a person costs $50K per lb then so be it. Change the idea of who takes the seat, and where the money comes from for that seat. ( User Pays - another country or private enterprise)

SpaceNut · 2004-09-15 09:25:09

When people think of the lunar resources available H3 always comes up but any conlony or crew of any size needs water, oxygen, food and power. Using lunar materials only makes sense if any of the for mentioned can be forfilled for as close to free as possible.

What would be needed to liberate oxygen from the mineral oxide metals?

Making of oxygen from human waste water but throwing the Hydrogen away does not make sense as done on the ISS.
Power is probably easiest from solar cells but nuclear and other potential means should be also supplied. Using fuels cells to take the hydrogen and oxygen to make water again with power output is a plus.

Which leaves making food the most difficult of all to solve. Domed stuctures might work but what are the hazards? Getting plants to grow is also a problem in the lower lunar gravity.

quasar777 · 2004-09-15 09:53:44

there is indeed constant threat of meteorite bombardment & radiation on the Lunar surface. so anything there must withstand that.

Martian Republic · 2004-09-15 10:08:41

Well, lets get away from politics, and back on the reasons to go to the moon first, well, the Topic - " Mining H3 on the Moon " answers the reason, and that we should be looking for long term development oon the moon.

I do try to stay on the subject and off of rabbit trails, but some times I will say something and it hits someone cross ways and then I try and explain briefly my position, and it obvious that people don't understand what I'M saying and then it: "OFF TO THE RABBIT TRAIL WE GO"!

Now back to our subject:

I wish we could stay out of the political side of this problem, but unfortunately you can't segregate politics from Helium 3. As long as we have no fusion power plant that need Helium 3 for fuel. Who care if there helium 3 on the moon anyway. So without a technological advancement on Earth on Fusion there is no need for long term development on the moon for Helium 3. So you have two problems to deal with and not just one problem to deal with. One problem for us on the moon and one problem for us on the earth for helium 3 and the problem on the earth will solve moon problem for helium 3. Because, we will have a reason to go get the helium 3 then, because we will have market for it. But, prior to that, it will be like scooping dirt up in your hands out of your garden and trying to sell it for a million dollars. You won't get very many takers on the deal if any.

Larry,

Martian Republic · 2004-09-15 10:28:48

When people think of the lunar resources available H3 always comes up but any conlony or crew of any size needs water, oxygen, food and power. Using lunar materials only makes sense if any of the for mentioned can be forfilled for as close to free as possible.

Yes, that going to be a problem.

I think the verdict is still out as to whether there any water on the poles of the moon as ice. But, even assuming that there not, there still oxygen atoms locked up in the lunar dust, but it will take some effort to break it loose and free it up. Without fission and/or fusion powered rocket at our disposal, we couldn't chase down a comet bust off piece for our moon colony. So it going to be a very long and tedious job generate the air supply and water supply. The power supply should be relatively easy and doable, but would be a major effort.

Larry,

Grypd · 2004-09-15 15:52:29

When people think of the lunar resources available H3 always comes up but any conlony or crew of any size needs water, oxygen, food and power. Using lunar materials only makes sense if any of the for mentioned can be forfilled for as close to free as possible.
Yes, that going to be a problem.
I think the verdict is still out as to whether there any water on the poles of the moon as ice. But, even assuming that there not, there still oxygen atoms locked up in the lunar dust, but it will take some effort to break it loose and free it up. Without fission and/or fusion powered rocket at our disposal, we couldn't chase down a comet bust off piece for our moon colony. So it going to be a very long and tedious job generate the air supply and water supply. The power supply should be relatively easy and doable, but would be a major effort.
Larry,

The verdict is still out but maybe the answer if there is water ice on the moon will be answered soon. The Smart probe plans to start at the lunar equator and slowly keep getting up to the higher latitudes and if it can see into one of those permanently dark craters.

If it cant then its high time we send a lunar rover to do the job. That is something easily doable now and frankly will answer a lot of questions that need answering.

RobS · 2004-09-15 16:59:14

I don't think there is a question whether water is there. Clementine detected hydrogen. Rather, the two key questions are (1) what's the concentration? We know it isn't pure ice, so it's probably disseminated ice particles in regolith. If it's 5-10% of the regolith, that's ideal; the reg won't be frozen hard as concrete, and the concentration's high enough to harvest easily. We can harvest regolith down to about 1% and extract the water at a reasonable cost, according to folks at the Colorado School of Mines.

But there's still (2), can we harvest ice-regolith that's 40 K? That's very cold. When I asked Zubrin at the Mars Society Conference about harvesting ice at the lunar poles, that was his immediate concern. No one knows how to harvest stuff that is that cold, not in large quantities at least. That was a problem I had not thought about.

But the people at the Colorado School of Mines have been think about that problem, too. They have even designed a scooper to pick up the icy regolith. You can Google and find the picture on the web.

Spacenut, there are many studies about extracting oxygen from lunar regolith materials. You can probably Google and find them. There are three different processes that have been studied. One involves hydrogen and ilmenite (a titanium oxide); it can be broken down pretty easily in hydrogen. At the Mars Society conference Zubrin stressed extraction of oxygen from the lunar regolith because it means you only have to fly 1/7 of your fuel to the moon (because hydrogen-oxygen rockets usually use hydrogen at a 1:6 ratio with oxygen). Unless one can haul water from the poles, flights to the lunar equator from Earth and back will have to rely on lunar oxygen production for the return trip.

-- RobS

Gennaro · 2004-09-15 17:31:22

But there's still (2), can we harvest ice-regolith that's 40 K? That's very cold. When I asked Zubrin at the Mars Society Conference about harvesting ice at the lunar poles, that was his immediate concern. No one knows how to harvest stuff that is that cold, not in large quantities at least. That was a problem I had not thought about.

I guess we should not forget about this reaction:

FeTiO3 (ilmenite) + H2 = Fe + TiO2 + H2O

Seems to me as long as we can haul in huge amounts of hydrogen, we might not even need the polar water.
???

Martian Republic · 2004-09-15 18:04:42

But there's still (2), can we harvest ice-regolith that's 40 K? That's very cold. When I asked Zubrin at the Mars Society Conference about harvesting ice at the lunar poles, that was his immediate concern. No one knows how to harvest stuff that is that cold, not in large quantities at least. That was a problem I had not thought about.
I guess we should not forget about this reaction:
FeTiO3 (ilmenite) + H2 = Fe + TiO2 + H2O
Seems to me as long as we can haul in huge amounts of hydrogen, we might not even need the polar water.
???

The original off shoot of this discussion started with Spacenut over having plenty of oxygen and water for a colony on the Moon. The secondary purpose was to create rocket fuel. So we will need more of this water, oxygen and hydrogen in all three forms than what we will be bringing up earth so we have to look for other sources. That when the discussion turned to the ice on the lunar poles.

Larry,

SpaceNut · 2004-09-15 19:39:47

In the iss cutback thread I had put forth the idea of using the waste water oxygen units byproduct of Hydrogen as a way to seed any operations on the lunar surface since I had realized that it would be necessary to send Liquid H or water to the moon for any large quantity of mining as well as for the crew.
I was told it would be to hard to do a liquification process in space as well as under low pressure levels from the unit. I figure every little bit that is basically free counts.

comstar03 · 2004-09-15 21:19:13

Depending on our technological advancements by the time we get to the moon, new power sources like fusion have been created and new fuel sources are required for plasma and ion drive power by fusion reactors. first and foremost we need to determine a living environment for the lunar colony equal to earth-type / like and resources required to maintain it. then determine process to provide travel between earth and moon and also the movement of cargo or other resources from surface to orbit or to earth.

Once mapped out then move forward and implement the strategy and continuously monitor new technology changes and innovation.

quasar777 · 2004-09-16 14:23:27

I never thot i`d hear myself say this, but we shouldn`t wait for exotic tech. it will come if discovered & developed. meanwhile we have plenty of resources to live in OuterSpace.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-16 17:51:06

We have all the technology needed for a small sustained Lunar base given a decent budget, like the $7-8Bn that Shuttle/ISS costs a year would be a fine start, but we only have most of the technology for a medium sized or large Lunar base... But could be attained without too much effort.

The Hydrogen on the ISS is pretty worthless, primarily because there is so little of it, it simply isn't worth the trouble to try and bottle it. Only a few tons of water are needed for the ISS now and then, and only 1/9th of that is Hydrogen. If you captured every last gram of it from now until the end of the station, I don't expect you would have enough to fuel up more than a Centaur stage, maybe two.

comstar03 · 2004-09-16 18:04:57

I think you both , took the wrong explanation in what I was saying, I also know we have the technology to get to the moon, and I know the research , development and discovery will happen on the moon, but the development of the moon base and facilities must be delivered within an overall strategy that takes in consideration of possible technological impacts and thus limits the resource waste.

comstar03 · 2004-09-16 20:17:32

About telerobotics, look at this site and read the technology deployed in its joint movement and then look at the picture, a good size telerobot for the moon >

http://www.internationalrobotics.com/co … ]Millennia Robots - Newest addition

deagleninja · 2004-09-16 23:46:19

quasar777 makes a good point. If you wait too long for just the 'right' technology to come around, then you defeat the purpose of doing pioneering frontier work. If we wait till it's relatively easy to get to Mars or build a lunar base, then you just end up with more of the same in terms of people and ideas.

Any risks we taking attempting either challenge now can be easily overcome with redundency. And it is always cheaper to build several copies rather than a few prototypes.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-17 06:56:32

I do agree that the frontiering spirit is a necessity and that multiple missions all of the same building blocks of comonality be used is another.

Here is a couple more stories on robotics from spacedaily:
ROBO SPACE

Cockroach-Like Robot Leads New Effort
Berkeley CA (SPX) Sep 17, 2004
A cockroach-like robot named RHex is the starting point for a major project to understand animals' most distinguishing trait - how they move without falling over.

Proving Shape-Shifting Robots Can Move It
Arlington VA (SPX) Sep 17, 2004
It started with tennis balls. As a former collegiate tennis player, Daniela Rus habitually rolls two tennis balls around in her hand as she paces her office.

quasar777 · 2004-09-17 10:49:28

i think even a small lunar base would be quite sufficient. if nothing else, it would give others a place to come to & toys to play with if it failed. & i`m thinking put it near the old equipment, so that could be inspected for possible salvage or a museum. & no doubt this venture would cast people`s eyes towards L1. this is a bit off-subject, but i recently learned there is actually @ an Lpoint, the SOHO observatory i`m wondering if this could be pointed to the lunar vicinity (or mars for that matter. the reason i`m mentioning this is because apparently The Moon has no lunasynchronous Orbit. in other words an artifact in about The Moon decays fairly rapidly.

Grypd · 2004-09-17 16:34:58

Quasar777 you are right objects in lunar orbit decay rapidly but there are two very close lagrange points where objects placed there could remain for a long long time and this is a good place to put a Lunar interface station.

A small base on the Moon as long as it is given the right infrastructure and telerobot support will not remain small long. The beauty of Telerobotic infrastructure and facility creation is that the Robots will be able to work 24 hrs a day as long as there is light initially but when the Lunar power structure reaches a certain point of size of the power grid it becomes 24-7 and 365 days. How can we do this by simply having three small centers that control the robot workers and operators that hand over control of there machine to the next in line as the day goes on. These centers are in different countries and different time zones around the world. Using the material we mine and pick up from the Moon regolith we can keep expanding and increasing capability until the Moon is able to support Mans further expansion outwards cheaply.

comstar03 · 2004-09-17 20:31:02

Grypd,

I agree with you, and I have seen those comments before, about telerobotics. I think so people haven't got the way that could build on the moon under human supervision without have large numbers of humans there until the facilities are built to support them .

Grypd · 2004-09-18 13:18:59

Grypd,
I agree with you, and I have seen those comments before, about telerobotics. I think so people haven't got the way that could build on the moon under human supervision without have large numbers of humans there until the facilities are built to support them .

By this do you mean that we need to have a human prescence to overseer the use of telerobotic operations. Well apart from the Humans in the Eath based centers it is not really necessary for humans to be on the Moon to watch these robots. Actually the reason we want to use telerobotic infrastructure creation is that it will cost less to operate robots than people and that the really expensive supply runs can be done away with. Our capacity to send material to the Moon using our current rocket technology is limited. If we have to send material to the Moon to resupply the Human prescence on the Moon then we will fail. But if we use the supply runs to the Moon to provide extra material and robots then soon we will have a base able to using lunar materials support Human operations on the Moon and beyond.

There are questions in not using people on the Moon these are, 1) what if a robot breaks down, 2) who controls the base directives, 3) Humans are more flexible and able to investigate the Moon better, 4) what about the time lag

Well the answer is
1) A robot breaking down will happen but do we need people to fix this problem, No. We will create a central repair depot able to fix problems by use of expert telerobotic repairs. If we can use telerobots to operate on humans then we can use telerobotics to fix machines, actually this is a benefit as we may have to modify machines to function better as experience in working on the Moon is gained

2) The base directives will be done from Earth and will be a reasonably flexible plan that creates the Base and what we need from it. It will create a priority for certain things power generation and oxygen/metal supply.

3) Yes Humans are more flexible but only if they are supplied with the resources that they reguire to function. At first on the Moon if we supply those resources then what we can use is scientists doing pure science.

4) there is more or less a 4 second time lag between the Moon and Earth but it is really negligible the robots will not be working at a speed where this time limit will hurt us.

It is unfortunate that sending robots to create our base is not romantic and will not really attract much public attention but it can be done relatively cheaply compared to Manned flight and this could sneak a programme through until it reaches the critical size that allows for Mass human prescence in space and it becomes strange for us to stop a space programme

comstar03 · 2004-09-18 17:39:27

grypd,

I said the say think about, many comments ago within this thread. I Tried to explain this and they masses here didn't see the benefits sending robots to the moon, and building the moonbase for humans first. Ultimately the development of the solar system will come from using technology to deliver the best outcomes.

The moon will be the industrial hub for earth development over the next century, and the development of other industrial complexes will come. We could even build a solid space station for earth from a construction bay on the moon and lift it into orbit and then boostered back to earth, similar in size to a large space vehicle up to seveal hundred metres long, that would expand earth orbit space for permanent human presence in space.

comstar03 · 2004-09-18 17:41:34

Sorry, the first line should be - I said the same things about telerobotics - I hate dsylexia sometimes.

John Creighton · 2004-09-19 15:18:40

Sorry, the first line should be - I said the same things about telerobotics - I hate dsylexia sometimes.

There is an edit button.

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#276 2004-09-15 07:16:56

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#277 2004-09-15 07:42:00

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#278 2004-09-15 09:25:09

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#279 2004-09-15 09:53:44

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#280 2004-09-15 10:08:41

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#281 2004-09-15 10:28:48

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#282 2004-09-15 15:52:29

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#283 2004-09-15 16:59:14

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#284 2004-09-15 17:31:22

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#285 2004-09-15 18:04:42

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#286 2004-09-15 19:39:47

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#287 2004-09-15 21:19:13

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#288 2004-09-16 14:23:27

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#289 2004-09-16 17:51:06

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#290 2004-09-16 18:04:57

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#291 2004-09-16 20:17:32

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#292 2004-09-16 23:46:19

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#293 2004-09-17 06:56:32

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#294 2004-09-17 10:49:28

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#295 2004-09-17 16:34:58

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#296 2004-09-17 20:31:02

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#297 2004-09-18 13:18:59

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#298 2004-09-18 17:39:27

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#299 2004-09-18 17:41:34

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

#300 2004-09-19 15:18:40

Re: The need for a Moon direct - and sustainabilty program

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