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#26 2005-06-21 09:05:52

flashgordon
Member
Registered: 2003-01-21
Posts: 314

Re: solar sail - solar sail

diehards have waited forever for this, and now, they can't get on the websites!

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#27 2005-06-21 10:34:43

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,301

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Here is another site

countdown to launch 3:10 as of now...

Hopefully the russian rocket will not have any problems as did the military satelite late yesterday.

edit
Watch the First Solar Sail Fly Overhead!

With Solar Sail Watch, people around the world can watch this history-making spacecraft streak through space.  This program is designed to help the general public spot Cosmos 1 in their neighborhoods.

http://planetary.org/solarsail/watch

More web links at bottom of page. ....

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#28 2005-06-21 14:50:36

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: solar sail - solar sail

[color=#000000:post_uid3]Possibly a better link here (sorry if already posted): http://planetary.org/solarsailblog/index_03.html

Nothing as of yet, another chance to "hear" from it at 2:21 PDT. Here's hoping!  :up:[/color:post_uid3]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#29 2005-06-21 15:00:31

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: solar sail - solar sail

I have had no problems accessing any sites, just set your timeout on an incredibly big amount  big_smile

latest update:
Jun 21, 2005 | 13:42 PDT | 20:42 UTC
Launch plus 0 hours 56 min

More info from Kamchatka

Lou reports that the Doppler data from Kamchatka indicates that duration of the motor firing was approximately just at that which was programmed. But no conclusion yet, because we have no direct telemetry signal from spacecraft.

Jun 21, 2005 | 13:39 PDT | 20:39 UTC
Launch plus 0 hours 53 min

More info from Kamchatka

An update from Moscow: they have analyzed the Petropavlovsk data and all indications are that the spacecraft was running its program as expected, at least at the beginning of the Kamchatka contact. He reminds us that we did not necessarily expect to recieve telemetry signal at either Petropavlovsk or Majuro.


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#30 2005-06-21 15:06:33

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: solar sail - solar sail

[color=#000000:post_uid0]That Emily Lakdawalla is a doll, glad she's doing these minute-by-minute updates. Looks like the site refreshes automatically at 5 minute intervals. A bit over 15 minutes before we hear news (15 minutes plus 5 for her to update, give or take).[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#31 2005-06-21 15:44:11

Fledi
Member
From: in my own little world (no,
Registered: 2003-09-14
Posts: 325

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Jun 21, 2005 | 14:28 PDT | 21:28 UTC
Launch plus 1 hours 42 min

No news yet

Sorry everybody, I wish I had more info to share with you. We are just waiting and waiting here. The spacecraft should be near Panska Ves and Bear Lakes right now. But even those contacts aren't the best. The best opportunities are on the 5th and 6th orbits, several hours into the mission. I'll tell you more as soon as I have anything to say.

Jun 21, 2005 | 14:01 PDT | 21:01 UTC
Launch plus 1 hours 17 min

This from Lou in Moscow:

Here's what we know and don't know. Indications are that orbit burn was received over Kamchatka. That data cuts off. This could be normal, related to the rocket firing; or it could indicate an anomaly. This is unknown. We also know that no signal was received at Kamchatka, and we also know that no signal was recieved at Majuro. From here on in, there's no communication at all wth the spacecraft until it goes over Panska Ves in the Czech Republic. A contingency plan for this is now being put into effect. The Panska Ves, Tarusa, and Bear Lakes stations will send commands to the spacecraft to try to turn it on. So in sum we have some precious data and a lot of silence. We have to wait at least 30 minutes before any possible contact, and possibly longer. It looks like it may be a long night here in Moscow and a long day in Pasadena.

//---------------------------------------------------------

I hope they will still be able to establish contact this night.

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#32 2005-06-21 15:59:45

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: solar sail - solar sail

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I took the rest of today off because I have a horrible cold (haven't had a cold in over a year), but I think I'll lay down now since it doesn't seem like we'll know anything for a few more hours. All I can do is hope.

Jun 21, 2005 | 14:47 PDT | 21:47 UTC
Launch plus 2 hours 1 min

No news yet, 2

It's hard to know what to update when there's no information. But I know there are a lot of people out there who want to know what's going on. Please, just be patient. We knew that this was a possibility from the start, though of course we had hoped that we would have those contacts.[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#33 2005-06-21 16:19:32

Fledi
Member
From: in my own little world (no,
Registered: 2003-09-14
Posts: 325

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Looks like it will take some time before they will have a good chance to try again, so we will know more tomorrow.

I hope you get well soon, Josh

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#34 2005-06-21 17:25:35

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Does not look too good. No signal whatsoever.  sad

Either it did not reach orbit, or it is in an unknown orbit (grasping at straws, that sounds to me...)

And it looked so good, initially...


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#35 2005-06-21 23:47:51

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Woke up from my nap and got this:

Jun 21, 2005 | 21:41 PDT | Jun 22 04:41 UTC

"We have a live spacecraft..."

...we think.

We got spacecraft telemetry data from Kamchatka. We feel reasonably confident that what we saw was real signal. In going back through the Majuro data, Viktor reported this afternoon that we now think we got about 10 seconds of data from that pass. And that 10 seconds of data is consistent enough with the stuff from Kamchatka that we're pretty sure that Viktor saw something that originated from Cosmos 1. Panska Ves also reportedly saw some similar kind of data, with similar kinds of paterns.

So what this means is that we are probably in orbit, but it's not the orbit that we thought it was. So now we search. It could take days to find. We hope to hear from Strat Comm again tomorrow morning.

Where could we be? Odds are, if it was a problem with the launch vehicle, the launch vehicle more likely underperformed than overperformed. That means our orbit is more likely elliptical than circular, and also lower, and therefore faster than we expect. Without knowing where the spacecraft is, it becomes harder and harder to find as we go out from the launch date. Strategic Command has not seen the spacecraft -- we don't know why.

So -- we still don't know where it is, and we're still not in contact with it, which presents a serious problem. We're doing what we can to find it. But the fact that we think we saw it at Majuro and Panska Ves earlier today, means it's alive and in orbit, and there's a much better chance than it seemed earlier today that we could find it again.


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#36 2005-06-22 02:37:03

Fledi
Member
From: in my own little world (no,
Registered: 2003-09-14
Posts: 325

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Hmm not good news that Strategic Command couldn't detect it so far, let's hope it's in orbit at all.
If the orbit would be too low, then the solar sail will probably create more drag as the pushing from the Sun can overcome. Orienting the blades in a way that they have minimal drag and doing without part of the solar push could be the solution then.

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#37 2005-06-22 04:51:28

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: solar sail - solar sail

*Here's the latest I've seen:

Success of launch unknown

Too bad.  sad

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#38 2005-06-22 05:29:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,301

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Yup a quick look around major news sites are reporting the possibility of orbital signals but most are saying that it did not make it to orbit.

http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/latest_update.html]

11:45 pm PDT (6:45 UTC, June 22):

Update From Moscow

Project Director Louis Friedman cautioned that some data point to a launch vehicle misfiring, one that would prevent the spacecraft from achieving orbit. He said, “That the weak signals were recorded at the expected times of spacecraft passes over the ground stations is encouraging, but in no way are they conclusive enough for us to be sure that they came from Cosmos 1 working in orbit.” The Russian space agency indicated that the Volna rocket may have had a problem during its first or second stage firing. “This,” Friedman noted, “would almost certainly have prevented the spacecraft from reaching the correct orbit.”

Hopefully the engine can be fired to finish the job of getting it to orbit.

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#39 2005-06-22 06:09:06

Rxke
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2003-11-03
Posts: 3,658

Re: solar sail - solar sail

weird... if they get signal at the right time, the orbit should be correct, no? otherwise the signals wouldn't be there at the same time. ???

So what were they picking up then?

(Edit: was too caffeinated yesterday to actually let it sink in I saw a post from Josh! Welcome back, there!)


ExoMars' launcher's 2nd stage is probably en route to Mars. Unsterilised... yikes

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#40 2005-06-22 06:52:15

Fledi
Member
From: in my own little world (no,
Registered: 2003-09-14
Posts: 325

Re: solar sail - solar sail

launch failed

That's really sad, it's already the 3rd setback for solar sails, and 2 times it wasn't even because of the spacecraft but the launcher.

sad

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#41 2005-06-22 08:54:17

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Day two of Emily Lakdawalla's sweet blog: http://planetary.org/solarsailblog/index_05.html

Jun 22, 2005 | 07:49 PDT | 14:49 UTC

The morning after

I showed up here at POP at about 7 am local time. I'm the only one here in the building at the moment. It was a very late night after a very long day yesterday, and we all knew that if anything there would be more people asking questions today; we needed the rest.

Over our night and their day there has been some information coming out of Russia. To recap where we stand: yesterday the launch appeared to happen roughly on time. The Navy reported first stage firing. Then the signal of the spacecraft was detected over the temporary ground station at Petropavlovsk. But it wasn't detected over Majuro, which had us concerned. And then U. S. Strategic Command reported that they did not see our spacecraft in the sky. Later in the afternoon, we heard back from our man in Majuro that he thought actually he may have detected a weak signal. And then we heard the same from Panska Ves via Lou. That all seemed to add up to a consistent story that while there may have been a problem on board, our spacecraft likely was in orbit.

Since then, there has been a new report circulating from Russia:

ITAR-TASS is now quoting officials of the Russian Navy and the Makeyev design bureau as saying that the Volna first stage unexpectedly shut down 83 seconds after lift-off, adding that unlike the standard Volna SLBM the "space version" does not have an automatic destruct system for such an eventuality.

About this, Lou made a statement last night:

Project Director Louis Friedman cautioned that some data point to a launch vehicle misfiring, one that would prevent the spacecraft from achieving orbit. He said, “That the weak signals were recorded at the expected times of spacecraft passes over the ground stations is encouraging, but in no way are they conclusive enough for us to be sure that they came from Cosmos 1 working in orbit.” The Russian space agency indicated that the Volna rocket may have had a problem during its first or second stage firing. “This,” Friedman noted, “would almost certainly have prevented the spacecraft from reaching the correct orbit.”

What this means is that we are still dealing with a very wide range of possibilities for what could have happened yesterday, made even wider by the fact that it kind of sounds like some of the information that we have is contradictory. If the launch vehicle failed, how did we detect signals at Majuro and Panska Ves? On the other side, if the launch vehicle had a problem but still managed to put the spacecraft into some orbit, why didn't Strat Comm see it last night? We don't know what to make of it. We hope to get more information from Lou in an hour or two. Stand by for that.

sad

All my optimism at this point is gone.


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#42 2005-06-22 09:15:18

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Signal may have been detected

*There's a glimmer of hope, apparently.  Article indicates it may have reached orbit after all.

We continue to search for the Cosmos 1 spacecraft.  We have reviewed our telemetry recordings and have found what we believe are spacecraft signals in the data recorded at the tracking stations in Petropavlovsk, Kamchatka and Majuro, Marshall Islands.  The review of data received at the tracking station in Panska Ves, Czech Republic also appears to indicate a spacecraft signal.  If confirmed, these data will indicate that Cosmos 1 made it to orbit.

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#43 2005-06-22 10:36:15

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,253

Re: solar sail - solar sail

It crashed. Looks like a first stage failure.

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#44 2005-06-22 10:43:08

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,301

Re: solar sail - solar sail

You may be read the news from a military satelite from the day before launch.. that did crash already.

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#45 2005-06-22 10:57:41

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,253

Re: solar sail - solar sail

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160301,00.html

It's off the AP.

MOSCOW — The world's first solar sail spacecraft (search) crashed back to Earth when its booster rocket failed less than two minutes after Tuesday's takeoff, Russian space officials said Wednesday.

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#46 2005-06-22 12:05:24

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,301

Re: solar sail - solar sail

I am not sure who is correct on this but here is a different source:
Solar sail may be lost in space

Cosmos 1 was launched on a converted missile from a Russian submarine in the Barents Sea on Tuesday. But ground controllers could not pick up the expected communications from the craft after launch.

“We cannot confirm a successful orbit insertion,” says Susan Lendroth, spokeswoman for the Planetary Society, which organised the Cosmos 1 project.

However, data was received suggesting that the Cosmos 1 had fired its engines in an attempt to enter the intended orbit. This indicates at least that the craft separated from the launch vehicle, unlike during a previous attempt in 2001. And reports that weak signals received by tracking stations in the Pacific Ocean, Russia and the Czech Republic appear to show that Cosmos 1 made it into orbit.


But then again this on shows what you have as for a mean time line to failure:
Russian solar sail launch fails because of engine failure

So much contradiction on this, who knows..

If it did make it to orbit but is not positioned correctly then maybe contact can be made via the ISS to it or though some other means.

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#47 2005-06-22 12:38:41

Commodore
Member
From: Upstate NY, USA
Registered: 2004-07-25
Posts: 1,021

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Boy, talk about a bad week for Russian launchers.

It seems to me that if it was broadcasting a signal at all someone would have picked it up by now, no matter what orbit its in.


"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane

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#48 2005-06-22 12:48:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,301

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Some articles report a weak signal was recieved while others are saying that it is down.
The Planetary update page is somewhat stating that it is unknown at this time its status for sure.

Russian Federal space agency Федеральное космическое агентство

english translation:

22.06.2005 "SOLAR SAIL" IS NOT BROUGHT OUT TO THE DESIGNATED ORBIT
Because of the spontaneous cessation of the work of the first-stage engine of carrier rocket "wave" on 83-1 second of flight unique automatic spacecraft "solar sail" not was brought out to the designated orbit.

The conversion carrier rocket "wave", developed by the state rocket center OF "KB im. Makeyeva", was neglected on Tuesday 23 hours 46 minutes (msk) from the water area of Barents sea from the atomic submarine "borisoglebsk".

Unfortunately, this is the second unsuccessful attempt to send into the space flight "solar sail". The first was undertaken during July 2001, but it proved to be also unsuccessful. Then automatic spacecraft was not separated from the carrier rocket and was destroyed in the dense layers of the atmosphere.

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#49 2005-06-22 14:26:37

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: solar sail - solar sail

From Emily's blog:

Jun 22, 2005 | 10:33 PDT | 17:33 UTC

Planetary Society Official Statement

In the past twenty-four hours, the Russian space agency (RKA) has made a tentative conclusion that the Volna rocket carrying Cosmos 1 failed during the firing of the first stage.This would mean that Cosmos 1 is lost.

While it is likely that this conclusion is correct, there are some inconsistent indications from information received from other sources. The Cosmos 1 team observed what appear to be signals, that looks like they are from the spacecraft when it was over the first three ground stations and some Doppler data over one of these stations. This might indicate that Cosmos 1 made it into orbit, but probably a lower one than intended. The project team now considers this to be a very small probability. But because there is a slim chance that it might be so, efforts to contact and track the spacecraft continue. We are working with US Strategic Command to provide additional information in a day or so.

If the spacecraft made it to orbit, its autonomous program might be working, and after 4 days the sails could automatically deploy. While the chances of this are very, very small, we still encourage optical observers to see if the sail can be seen after that time.

--

I think that this is common in small groups of people, they want to believe, basically. At this point I believe it was a total failure, but to be proven wrong in 4 days would make my year. Hopefully they can get another launch from Russia for cheaper this time, certainly the cost of these launches is bound to drop as people start going "WTF those rockets suck!" Heh.


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#50 2005-06-22 22:44:23

Loughman
Member
From: Tempe, Arizona
Registered: 2005-06-21
Posts: 29

Re: solar sail - solar sail

Does anyone on this forum plan on attending the AIAA Joint Propulsion Conference about 4 wks from now? 

They are going to have some really interesting papers being presented on solar sail concepts.

Does anyone know of any good design tools for simulating/modeling solar sails?

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