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#26 2022-06-26 14:33:49

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 173

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

"Oslo shooting: Norway attack being treated as Islamist terrorism, police say"
June 23, 2022  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61933817

California and Florida have constitutions that refer to "Almighty God".

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA PREAMBLE
We, the people of the State of Florida, being grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, in order to secure its benefits, perfect our government, insure domestic tranquility, maintain public order, and guarantee equal civil and political rights to all, do ordain and establish this constitution.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?submenu=3

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION PREAMBLE: We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure and perpetuate its blessings, do establish this Constitution.  https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face … cCode=CONS

Should the constitution of Mars, or the constitutions of numerous Martian states, promote belief in the existence of an Almighty God?

I would not want to live in a Martian state that asserts the existence of an "Almighty God" and that issues residency permits to Islamists who have been trained to commit terror attacks on people who believe in the "wrong" god.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#27 2022-06-27 15:47:50

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,381

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

Some of these I ave seen in fictional escapism scifi books...others might be not so fictional big_smile

-  Democracy - a country’s people are involved in elections or choosing its leader or head, although sometimes flawed a democracy is still seen as the best form of all other bad choices of government.

Mafia Syndicate -  the difference between Government and crime gang mafioso yakuza mob syndicate. is that government is the normal elected legal body that can behave like a gang with the power to make and/or enforce laws and send government thugs with guns around to beat people up and to control a country

Bureaucracy - nothing gets done only people who are experts in Legal linguistics and Political craft have the time and energy to get through all this near endless paperwork, expect your nonelected government officials to be corrupted and open corrupt doors to lobby the elected peoples so these elected can pass endless filibuster is a political procedure in which one or more members of a legislative body prolong debate on proposed legislation, points of order, legal lawsuits and hearings within government, points of order to amendment and another debate for an ajournement.

Commune     - typically a multi-cultural gathering of weird hippie type or an intentional community of people living together?
Although sometimes hippies sleep near each other so you have that whole 'chamber mate' people living in similar dorms or 'colleague', or 'ally', and they might even use different words, term camarada, literally meaning 'Comrade', basically a single step away from turning into some hippie movement communist wink smile

Theocratic, Ecclesiastical, Emirate, the islamic republic -
these are all essentially very backward mentally retarded forms of government or a government administrated by a church or inbred islamist terrorist leader, who rule their people by fear, religious mind control or Blasphemy religion rule, “Birkat Hashem” superstitions and jihadi Sharia Laws.

Special Badges of Merit - The Technocrat Facebook Twitter Meritocracy, Rule by the meritorious system of governance where Twitter Facebook political groups are selected on the basis of people's ability, they rule the inferior and ban others and are moved up the ladder depending on their techo merit system status or merit of knowledge in a given area. Meritocratic in theory might not be a bad form of the government that rules it could allow protectorates, foreign states, colonies to have their own governments and rules, the Meritocracy might not always be bad it could be a form of government in which power is vested in people chosen based on their ability, or 'merit'. The cranky controversial philosopher Plato thought that a government based on merit was better than democracy. He said something like in democracy maybe that year only idiots might be running for election, there is no guarantee that you will get the best person, he believed that poet philosophers who would spend their days eating grapes, drinking wine, writing and looking at the clouds were sometimes the best people to rule.  Plato thought if you are a philosopher, you don't care about power – all you care about is truth, forget the Warrior Imperial Emperor Popes and the Fourth Crusade. maybe this Plato naval gazing explains why Constantinople is now Occupied by foreign mohammedan Turkmenistani speaking peoples, too busy giving themselves badges and oscar statues and looking at the clouds to noitice the incoming horde invading?

- Multi-Planet, as seen in your scifi show or video game. The future past Multi Planet Empires as seen in the Dystopia horrors of our strange science fiction works the Great Men leading the Space Empire are not 'peacemakers'. Great Emperor men in Space are conquerors!
Empires are a constant feature of scifi books, fictional movies and tv shows.
In fiction tv shows and scifi books there is often Alliance of worlds, Coalition of Planets or Space Federation that becomes its own Empire or sometimes a more aggressive collection of worlds like the fictional Cyberman Empire of DoctorWho the fictional world of StarTrek there is the Klingon Empire, Cardassian live in a Union of worlds, the Ferengi Alliance, Marvel comics fictional universe seems to also have Empires that cross worlds in their movies and comics and the fictional military structure of Nova Corps, the Stargate show would describe a fictional Coalition of Planets, while Battlestar Galactica described planets of United Colonies that were surprise attacked by the Cylon Machine Empire. I believe the Warhammer board games were mostly planetary Empires, the Covenant is a theocratic military alliance of alien race Empires who sin the Halo science fiction video game tv series, in video games there was an Empire Alliance of Free Stars and Hegemonic  Empire in Star Control. Fictional scifi Books also describe Empires Starbound Lightship Chronicles Dave Bara,  David Weber Solarian League and Isaac Asimov's Foundation series also described Space Empires, Frank Herbert Dunebooks, Earth Strike by Ian Douglas, in the Ender series and Starship Troopers they expand or save their own Empire and fight an enemy of alien species known as "Arachnids" or "Bugs". I forget what kinds of governments were in Farscape tv show but I believe they also might have been Multi Planet Space Empires.  The Galactic Patrol was a kind of SpaceForce military Empire in the Lensman book series. In the Ancillary Mercy book the entire Empire thing has been ruled for two millennia by a single human consciousness, I'm not sure if human and AI or like Borg or person but existing endlessly across thousands of cloned bodies and something about an impenetrable Dyson Sphere at the center? This mentally connected link of cloned bodies is the chief authority in all judicial, political, military and religious matters in Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch stories. .The StarWars Galactic Space Empire of Luke Skywalker stories Starwars or Empire Imperial Space of Star Wars with its fictional characters of Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine are what people might be most familiar with. Perhaps it is human history with the age of Exploration and Colonial Conquest is why many multi planet galactic communities are often described as Empires in our scifi books and tv.
Although Japan's days of Empire and Expansionism are gone Japan is the only country with a reigning Emperor. Naruhito is the current new Emperor of Japan, he acceded to the Chrysanthemum in May 2019.

Empire?
Putin's Russian expanding to be the old USSR
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10150

Representation of micro community and mini government -
this a political philosophy term used to describe the removal of political power from the majority and the transference of that power to a minority of under-represented people, one criticism is that it can lead to an expansion of more politics and more government bodies although at local levels.

- Tribalism sometimes you live in a tent and it is as simple as shoot arrows and chucks spears at the other people outside your tribe, it is a system based on a small complex society of varying degrees of centralization that is led by an individual known as a 'Chief', your chief might not be much of a master at anything, modern Collapsed Zimbabwe was said to have de-evolved to tribalism.

- 'QuickFix' the post cataclysm democracy, Humanity went boom and has seen better days. The End of the Human town as we know, your senate got blitzed by a shower of micro meteorites, a landslide wiped out the other town. Your new war or disaster it has wiped out a good chunk of people, and the government has been reduced to a post office worker, the local school teacher and a space colonial marine now elected VP.

Autocracy - me angry man autocratic leader, respect my authority, there is sometimes little difference between an Autocracy and a Dictatorship a form of government where the supreme power or rule is in the hand of one individual or entity for example the absolute monarchy or Oman or DPRK.

Republic, the government system, where power also rests with the people, they the peoples are in charge of electing or choosing the country’s leader, instead of the leader being appointed or inheriting power, the government system is without a monarch. A republic may be governed by a group of nobles, as long as there is not a single monarch. Examples of countries with a republic government system include Czech Republic, Argentina and France.

Marxist Communist Lennism - Some have claimed StarTrek is communist but is it? the communist government system is usually based on a particular ideology of communism taught by Karl Marx or Vladimir Lenin, they following Communist Bolsevik philosophy have successfully killed millions of their own.

The Constitutional Republic? - sometimes people say the USA is best described not a 'Democracy' which can be corrupted by mysterious outside invading spooky forces but as a Constitutional Republic where the pure “Constitutional” aspect of the Law of the United States Republic means that the Constitution is the supreme law of the United States while the term “Republic” means that the power of the government is held by the free peoples.

- Matriarchy the system of mammals in which women hold the primary power positions in roles of authority, works among Hyena animals and some random African tribes, not sure it works in the real world.
Some witchcraft fetish cosplay groups might still try to operate some form of Matriarchy
When some feminist tv show like Buffy had a tiny little blonde girl knock out giant monster dude and throw some 7 foot tall muscle bound brute out a window or when Scarlett Witch killed all the super powered illuminati dudes in the Dr Strange Universe but spent a good while fighting the Female Black Captain Marvel and had difficultly fighting Peggy Carter MissCaptainAmerica Agent Carter I'm not sure if it was an example of a fictional Matriarchy or just cringe bad fantasy writing.

- Patriarchy is an institutionalized social system in which the strong male dominated over others, it has probably happened in some form in humans or the animal kingdom and for most male dominated tribes in ancient pre-history when mankind was more about brute strength or the physical powerful dominated or it was a society of uneducated or tribal, although fossil evidence suggests that most prehistoric human societies valued the opinion of a wise woman and were relatively egalitarian, in recorded history the Greek Aristotle portrayed women as morally, intellectually, and physically inferior to men; saw women as the property of men, this older form of thinking has mostly died out with  women’s suffrage political movement, the Women’s Rights Movement, although even today an Arab man might expand an inbred bloodline across many regional areas with a 'Harem' as a Lion does in the animal Kingdom, harem may house a man's wife, concubine sex slaves or many wives, the Dominant Male is often removed brutally by another dominant male, I'm not sure a lot of intellectual thinking goes on during this brutality although Aristotle was unique person of philosophy. 

- Anarchic-capitalist system, free trade corporate influenced society, maybe Macau aka Macao or the Old West in the United States in the period of 1830 to 1900 was similar to anarcho-capitalism,  Dutch and British East India Companies had both corporate and imperial influences and both fielded private armies for fending off piracy and putting down native resistance.
Perhaps can be compared to the Corporate Robocop world?

- Blackmailed puppets, See newmars discussion news on Monarchy and Prince Andrew and the islands
perhaps pedophiles should just be shot dead?

Monarchy - the Monarch was the most common form of government until the 19th century. Monarchy is a form of government in which a single family rules from generation to generation, see the newmars discussion on was Prince Andrew a blackmailed or a pedophile?
both Portugal and Brazil had Monarchy that were overthrown by a military coup.

old new mars Monarchy discussion
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2786

Anti Monarch monitors - the new Theodorist mode of revolution, but with the end goal of abolishing the monarchy and indeed the state, instituting pure socialism be careful what you wish for! . It could lead to a weird split Lebanon Beirut form of government a Ijivate is a form that comprises of 3 equally powerful heads of state or Collapse into full on Communism?


Federal Monarchy -  these forms of Government may have existed for a period on the Italian Peninsula, in the Germanic Rhineland Empire and in Austria-Hungary,  Australian monarchy is now a constitutional monarchy, monarchy of Canada is at the main figure of Canada 's constitutional federal structure and Westminster-style parliamentary democracy, United Arab Emirates which was sending money to ISIS the fake puppet President, elected from regional inbred islamic monarchs who 'know best' and govern the states of the Federation, these types of Federal Monarchy are a federation of states with a monarch (one ruler) owns most of the land, sometimes speaks for god like a King or Pope and is seen as over-all head of the federation, the Roman Catholic Vatican government is unique as the city is an absolute monarchy and the reigning monarch even if they are a corrupted pedophile Pope they are seen as someone who has absolute authority

- Plutocracy - the plutocrat Rule by the wealthy class; a system wherein governance is indebted to, dependent upon or heavily influenced by the desires of the royal banker rich types.

- Feudalism, fighting mini region and small states go to war with each other also described in the human history of Japan and Afghanistan.

- Puritan, the Magical Superstition Viking Scandinavia Witch hunter culture Exodus 22:18
Seems like a total waste of fuel and heat
find a fictional enemy, blame them for all your superstitions and magic fears, call them witches and burn them?  The blasphemy or "heresy" is derived from Greek haeresis, meaning is a sect party minority who go against purist canon, a Heretic may not be someone who offends religion but also Communism or some Dark scifi Dystopia, it is someone who has committed Thought Crime. Persecution of Scottish Catholic Celts may have helped fuel a Scottish rebellion or persecution of Protestants is the main reason the Low Dutch peoples the Holland Netherland Countries rose in revolt against Spain, one of the crimes which Joan of Arc was "condemned" was that of dressing like a man. Iceland, from 1625-1683, 21 people were executed by burning after being accused of witchcraft, Sweden, about 300 "witches" were burned between 1668 and 1676, Salem Witch Trials of 1692 most were hanged, with the exception of Giles Corey, who was pressed to death, some were chucked into water if the floated it was witchcraft, if they drowned they were innocent, some may also have been burned in Salem. Modern Messianic Judaism is considered a heresy by a number of people in Israel, in Africa today the mob still kill others for 'Witchcraft' many Muslim-majority countries where they pray to the pedophile terrorist prophet mahomet, Sharia Law Capital punishment is still utilised for such 'crimes' as 'witchcraft'.

Confederacy or the Confederation.
This is a union by compact or treaty between different states, provinces or territories that creates a central government with limited power, it gives a new approach to regional autonomy. Former Yugoslavia became a Confederacy the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was transformed into the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, a confederation of the Republic of Montenegro and the Republic of Serbia. During the US Civil War, the Union, also known as the North, referred to the United States led by President Abraham Lincoln was opposed by the secessionist Confederate States of America (CSA), informally called "the Confederacy" or "the South". The Siwss had a Confederacy or "Confederation of the Swiss" it was a loose confederation of independent small states. In the fictional universe of StarTrek its Breen Confederacy are warrior killers but prefer to take prisoners for slave labor, Confederacy of Surak was the formal name of the Vulcan state after the destruction of the planet Vulcan.

Hegemony - the old Hegemony of ancient Greece is the political, economic, and military predominance of one state over other states, the empires of Europe and French Revolution and Napoleonic France have often been described as Hegemony, there is also the subvert hidden hegemony propaganda manipulation of cultural hegemony with dominance of a culturally diverse society by the ruling class who manipulate the media culture of that society, other times there might be perceive hegemony real or imagined the West German student movement against the hegemony of the policy of their own government when one of their students was shot dead .

- Ethno-State, just as only certain dog is allowed to certain working dog tasks, only a certain breed is allowed rule a region, although Saudi Arabia has different Ethnic Groups it sometimes has also been described as an EthoState with Anti-miscegenation laws, under theocratic Law leaving islam is punishable by death and Race Mixing is banned, Under Shari'a law, Arabian Saudi women, as Muslims, are not permitted under any circumstances to marry non-Muslim men, the DPRK used to ban race mixing in the 1960s, North Korea began to enact practices such as forcing its male citizens who had married Eastern European and African women to divorce, some political people in news blogs have also described Israel as an Ethnostate but this seems to be incorrect as Israel is a collection of different etho tribes of Jewish peoples Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, Jewish themselves might be non-religion Atheist while Arab Christians and Arab Muslims exist inside Israel and now the Arab muslims seem to be outbreeding the Jewish, South Africa had been desribed as an EthnoState but Apartheids true original linguist meaning is an Afrikaans word and means apart-hood or ‘the state of being apart’ prohibitions on interracial marriages date before the British South African wars and back to the rule of the Dutch East India Company.  The Republic of Zimbabwe almost became an EthnoState as they kicked out the Caucasian Whites, although the modern Zimbabwean themselves might be outside Bantu invaders from the Congo, since the currency collapse Zimbabwe has allowed other people back into their country, Robert Mugabe knighted Royal Commander of the British Empire Subject by Queen Elizabeth II it was estimated that up to a quarter of Zimbabwe's 11 million people had fled the country. Three-quarters of the remaining Zimbabweans were living on less than one U.S. dollar a day, he finally died in 2019. Perhaps this sounds like a thing of the past but maybe the replicated improved gene modified man and replicated woman or engineered cyborg race will rule Mars, the Moon or Europa, outside foragers blamed for the problems?

Commonwealth - a common political entity founded for the common good and wealth of its people subjects, in "Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda" his Space Empire became a Commonwealth a fictional story set thousands of years in the future, and centers on a fictional constitutional monarchy a Space Captain Dylan Hunt is in an ancient high tech spaceship and returns to try restore the Commonwealth Empire?

- Police State Corp Government - not exactly Darth Vader Galactic Empire but maybe closer to the slightly more grounded and miserable life people of live inside the fictional crime ridden Robocop universe, this militarized Police State, sometimes corrupted by a Mega military industrial Corp> In fiction the new State is sometimes the Police station is pushed by Ultra-Nationalists. Sometimes villainous corporation gets into bed with a corrupted Police, it runs a political show in the name of profit it is a stereotypical enemy of the Libertarian peoples of science fiction and enemy of La Résistance, and the Police State a must have for any self-respecting Dystopia that is not in total anarchy, a very cynical, anti-life, anti-freedom look at society with the negative view that only forces capable of controlling this setting are tyrants, dictators, and authoritarian groups, they claim humanity will de-evolve to its worst faults and attempt at democracy is a doomed enterprise, formulated by Wide-Eyed Hippie Drug Smoking Idealist, the Corporate Military Police come in and restore order.
In the Death Note comicbook and tv and movie series The Yotsuba Corporation it is a massive international corporate conglomerate that employs over 300,000 people and is involved in everything from heavy industry to resort development to military weapon, it seems to have its own police force. Wayne Enterprises is a rare example of a Mega Corp perhaps started bad but now out to do good, the comicbook guy running the show also dress up like a Bat a night and beats up bad guys, Tyrell Corporation from movie Blade Runner is a multi-planet mega corporation based on the Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep science fiction novel by American writer Philip K. Dick.

Elite Caste System, Oligarchy, Aristocracy - sometimes the modern Russian Federation is described as an oligarchy is a form of government where power or authority is in the hands of a small class of privileged people or people who have similar or shared interests, pre Revolution Bourgeoisie France was said to be under the influence of an Aristocracy. Some countries although defined as socialist or Communist are also oligarchy included members of the Communist elite. Aristotle during his time defined an aristocracy as ruling by the best members of society but today an oligarchy it was said defined by the dominance of the few for corrupt and unjust causes. Japan and India have sometimes been described as Caste and a system of governance where political power is in the hands of a small class of privileged individuals, certain elite family names who claim a higher birth than the rest of their own internal lower caste in society.
discussion of 'upper class' and some caste systems in relation to Europe, although the discussion here touches on class its not the same as Asia because they mix it with superstition and religion, in Asia people can sometimes been seen as having inherited sin or caste or karma because their granpa and granma touched some blood or tainted leather a long time ago or of something 'sin' done in a previous lifetime, the US and Europe did have a class structure which can be sometimes compared.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7013

Parliamentary democracy
a political system in which the legislature (parliament) selects the government, there is a Parliamentary constitutional monarchies which have a separate head of government but where also royalty holds significant executive and/or legislative power and Somalia is not true 'Anarchy' in Somali land the Federal Parliament of Somalia elects the President who appoints the Prime Minister,, the Norway Monarch appoints the MP leading the largest party or coalition in Stortinget as Norway's Prime Minister, who forms the Cabinet in Thailand it is the King or the Monarch appoints the MP or individual nominated by in the House of Representatives usually the leader of the largest party or coalition as Prime Minister, who forms the Cabinet of Thailand.

Anarchism - the anarchy non-government system that advocates non self-governed societies based on voluntary institutions, see the collapse of Civil War Somalia,  when mohammedans say "insha'Allah, they are discussing an event in an anarchist way that will maybe or maybe not take place in the future. The literal meaning is, "If the Demonic Moongod al-Lah bothers to make it wills, then maybe it will happen, otherwise who the heck knows when the road will be fixed or your item will be delivered" the Spanish Civil War may have also marked a period of anarchist government.
Other forms of Anarchy?
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2768
The Chaos of trying to define Anarchy?
Anarchists - Definition, please?
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2755

'What kind of social system will be on Mars'
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2774

Dictatorship -
a single dictator person, a dictatorship ruler, has absolute power over the state.

Totalitarianism, Despotism -
maybe a Dictator but more insane, perhaps one of the few things that is possibly worse than a Dictatorship

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-28 06:31:15)

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#28 2022-06-28 09:32:27

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 173

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

B4:

You might take note of the "Rule of 150" and the fact that Hutterites are the fastest growing ethnic group on this planet.  Each Hutterite husband and wife have, on average, 10 children, and almost all of their children reach adulthood and marry and have children.

Rule of 150: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

The Hutterites have been around for almost 500 years. 
Each Hutterite colony is composed of 60 to 160 people. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites

Send Hutterites to Mars.  They will fill the red planet with life in record-breaking time.

ZOOM!  ZOOM!


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#29 2022-06-28 09:54:33

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,974

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

From the wiki article:

'A basic tenet of Hutterite groups has always been nonresistance, i.e. forbidding its members from taking part in military activities, taking orders from military persons, wearing a formal uniform (such as a soldier's or a police officer's) or paying taxes to be spent on war. This has led to expulsion from or persecution in the several lands in which they have lived.'

They don't exactly sound like team players.  The whole business of not paying taxes that might get spent on the military, and not supporting the military even in an hour of need, will alienate them from the surrounding population.  The right thing to do always has to be a matter of balanced judgement.  In their case, so many people around them came to view them as parasites that they frequently got wiped out.  I'm sure they are fine virtuous folk.  But religious morality needs to bend to certain facts of life.  Absolutism that ends up angering people around you that have to pick up your tab in times of war, is going to stoke resentments.  It is not a good survival strategy.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-28 09:57:03)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#30 2022-06-28 11:12:49

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 173

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

"The Congress shall have Power... To declare War..."
United States Constitution

We, the people of Earth, should require each Martian settlement to adopt a Constitution that prohibits the settlement and its residents from participating in warfare.

State societies are war machines.  Let's not put war machines on Mars.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#31 2022-06-28 13:06:54

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,835

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

For Scott Beach re #30

It's good to see you back in the forum!

Your point of view is certainly worth considering. 

Any group of humans who want to take over Mars can wait until the population builds up a nice economy and then sweep in to kill all the adult males.

The constitution would then be updated to reflect the new management.

(th)

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#32 2022-06-28 13:17:32

Terraformer
Member
From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,531
Website

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

Scott Beach wrote:

"The Congress shall have Power... To declare War..."
United States Constitution

We, the people of Earth, should require each Martian settlement to adopt a Constitution that prohibits the settlement and its residents from participating in warfare.

State societies are war machines.  Let's not put war machines on Mars.

When was the last time Switzerland fought a war of aggression? How about we put them in charge of Mars. The responsibility to keep and bear arms must not be infringed...


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#33 2022-06-28 16:13:32

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,868

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

Scott Beach,

State societies become war machines when the people elect immoral and/or ignorant politicians to office.  Unless an unprovoked attack was committed by an adversary nation-state, then the blame for war rests with the voters rather than their government.  You don't get to wash your hands of all responsibility for the behavior of your government after you get to choose your leaders.

Why do "the people of Earth" get to dictate terms to "the people of Mars", tens of millions of miles away from Earth?

Are the people of Earth going to reciprocate by refraining from engaging in war unless attacked?

That's the very sort of demand that's lead to so many wars in the not-so-distant past.  Paper means nothing if the people don't believe that what's written on the paper has value.  About half of America thinks our Constitution is "just a piece of paper" and the only stock they place in it is when they can use it to get what they want.  The other half seems to think that nobody is allowed to even try to interpret what the paper actually means to people living now, rather than back when it was written.  Precious few, or so it would seem, are more interested in following the spirit of the law, as embodied in our Constitution.

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#34 2022-06-29 06:49:50

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,381

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

Human Rights on Mars Won’t Be the Same as Those on Earth
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic … e-on-earth

Kim Stanley Robinson writes bestselling novels about a colony on Mars. Elon Musk talks of actually colonizing Mars. There is even a 30-page constitution, courtesy of a Yale political science class, for a Mars settlement. The actual prospects for a settlement remain uncertain, but the question of how it should be organized could stand some further scrutiny.
The Yale proposal is about how to make a Mars settlement democratic, as is an earlier proposal published in Space Legal Issues. But I fear a harsher question needs to be addressed first: Should a Mars settlement allow for contractual servitude?

and yes we already have a penal colony discussion
Australia
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2086
'What about doing the same for Mars?'

Some older discussion on new mars forums
David Hume's Politics: General Outline - May be of benefit to future Marsians https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2750
How will Mars be governed if Mars One suceeds? https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6820
What Type Of Government Should Mars Have?? https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2766
We also have a 'Mosques' thread Sudan, the Barbarian Kingdom https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5714
Space Exploitation vs. Space Exploration https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4050
Libertarians...any Libertarians in here? https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2803
Make a Mars Law - it's time to get serious... https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7886  , Keeping future mars colony from becoming slaves to Earth https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9329  ,
Intellectual Bigotry? - The chances of it effecting plans? https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=205
Outer Space Treaty https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6089


Selectionism - An Ideology for Martian Settlement
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2758

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-29 11:33:12)

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#35 2022-06-29 07:00:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,835

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

For Mars_B4_Moon ... re #34

Thanks for collecting all those links .... I decided to add to your collection, with my discovery this morning that Scott Beach has participated as a member of the forum using three ID's, and in two of those (that I have visited this far) Scott published a draft constitution for Mars.

A (to me quaint) idea that those early versions of Scott appear to have been advocating is trying to keep weapons out of Mars.  But (of course) you would need powerful weapons to keep weapons out of Mars, so in the end, peace would be established and maintained by those with the most powerful weapons, and ** they ** would need to be constantly vigilant, because ** every ** Mars resident not in the privileged set would be hard at work figuring out how to unseat the privileged few.

The human race will just keep on struggling with this issue.

(th)

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#36 2022-07-03 09:30:41

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,381

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

436

Millionaires?

https://www.insidebidensbasement.org/

Kleptes the society of thieves - from the Greek thief, the society or system ruled by people who use their power to steal their country's resources.

Unable to Read, Biden Fumbles With 'Kleptocracy'; Says Will Accommodate Russian Oligarchs But White House Corrects Him
https://www.ibtimes.sg/unable-read-bide … ouse-64334

Meet the oligarchs: the Russian billionaires whose jets, yachts and mansions are now in the crosshairs
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ … llionaires

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Mars_B4_Moon ... re #34


A (to me quaint) idea that those early versions of Scott appear to have been advocating is trying to keep weapons out of Mars.

I agree with the spirit of this, the Mars colony will be vulnerable and just as there are no guns allowed on a Cruise Ship or on Aircraft.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-03 09:35:27)

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#37 2022-07-04 12:09:17

tahanson43206
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

For SpaceNut .... this post could go into numerous existing topics ... this one with a recent update by Mars_B4_Moon seems like it might work ...


https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/0 … ket-newtab

The article at the link above is about ** 2 ** things (as I understand it)....

Alphabet had a proposal for a data-rich project, and the citizens for which it was proposed turned it down.

The alternative ** looks ** (to me at least) a lot more appealing.

I bring this up in the context of living conditions that might be imagined for Mars.

t’s hardly unusual for citizens to get up in arms about new development, and utopias fail for all sorts of reasons. But the opposition to Sidewalk’s vision for Toronto wasn’t about things like architectural preservation or the height, density, and style of the proposed buildings—the usual fodder for public outcry. The project’s tech-first approach antagonized many; its seeming lack of seriousness about the privacy concerns of Torontonians was likely the main cause of its demise.

There is far less tolerance in Canada than in the US for private-sector control of public streets and transportation, or for companies’ collecting data on the routine activities of people living their lives.

(th)

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#38 2022-07-04 12:55:01

kbd512
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

tahanson43206,

tahanson43206 wrote:

A (to me quaint) idea that those early versions of Scott appear to have been advocating is trying to keep weapons out of Mars.  But (of course) you would need powerful weapons to keep weapons out of Mars, so in the end, peace would be established and maintained by those with the most powerful weapons, and ** they ** would need to be constantly vigilant, because ** every ** Mars resident not in the privileged set would be hard at work figuring out how to unseat the privileged few.

The human race will just keep on struggling with this issue.

I see you have accurately identified the nature of the problem.

All attempts to prevent violence are ultimately futile, and devolve into disarming one group of people or another, who are invariably led to their slaughter or false imprisonment somewhere down the line by some other group who kept their weapons.  The people who initially disarmed said group may never lift a finger against the people they disarmed and even devote their lives to protecting them, but the following "rulers" will probably contain a few tyrants who don't demonstrate the same level of ethics or morality.

There is no moral code amongst the tyrannical that says they will only attack other people with weapons who are fully capable of defending themselves.  As a general rule, tyrants go after those who are least able to defend themselves, and those who are disarmed suffer the most.  Far more civilians were killed during WWII than military forces.  Utopian fantasies aside, that's the way the humanity has operated since we were throwing rocks at each other and living in caves.

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#39 2022-07-05 16:10:18

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,381

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

Feudal Noble Peasant times returning?

Intergenerational mortgages would push up house prices and fail to tackle supply issues, brokers say
https://www.mortgagesolutions.co.uk/new … okers-say/

Ministers consider extra-long term mortgages to tackle housing crisis
https://uk.style.yahoo.com/ministers-co … 27211.html

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#40 2022-07-10 03:53:55

Mars_B4_Moon
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Posts: 3,381

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

a Blackmailed Monarchy?

Ghislaine Maxwell is appealing her case after a judge sentenced her to 20 years in prison for sex-trafficking girls with Jeffrey Epstein
https://news.yahoo.com/ghislaine-maxwel … 13412.html

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#41 2022-07-11 12:31:31

Mars_B4_Moon
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Posts: 3,381

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

Not exactly a Tsar...and the Russian citizens are not called Serfs...yet?

Vladimir Putin to Be Called 'Ruler' of Russia Under New Proposal
https://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin … in-1723295

The nationalist Liberal Democratic Party (LDPR) proposed replacing the term "president" with "pravitel," which means "ruler", because the term "president" has not yet taken "root completely" in Russia, state-run news outlet RIA Novosti reported Sunday.
The Kremlin said at the time that Putin had no view on the proposal.

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#42 2022-07-13 07:52:27

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 3,381

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

What if the Martian Mayor runs away or President Quit and simply Abandoned Mars?

Could Mars have a Sri Lanka moment? Sri Lanka administers the island from both its commercial capital of Colombo and the administrative capital of Sri Jayawardenepura Kotte and Sri Lanka has a legal system which is an amalgam of English common law, Roman-Dutch civil law and Customary Law, Sri Lanka's second republican constitution, began replacing the Sri Lankan Constitution of 1972, its third constitution since the country received independence within the British Commonwealth as the Dominion of Ceylon in 1948, and its fourth constitution overall. National State Assembly  legislative body of Sri Lanka established in 1972 .

President flees

Sri Lanka’s president fled the country without stepping down, plunging a country already reeling from economic chaos into more political turmoil. Protesters demanding a change in leadership then trained their ire on the prime minister and stormed his office.
President Gotabaya Rajapaksa and his wife left aboard an air force plane bound for the Maldives — and he made his prime minister the acting president in his absence. That appeared to only further roil passions in the island nation, which has been gripped for months by an economic meltdown that has triggered severe shortages of food and fuel.
https://apnews.com/article/world-news-a … 7d5a1ccdb1
Thousands of protesters — who had anticipated that Prime Minister Ranil Wickremesinghe would be appointed acting president and wanted him gone— rallied outside his office compound and some scaled the walls. The crowd roared its support and tossed water bottles to those charging in.
Dozens could later be seen inside the office or standing on a rooftop terrace waving Sri Lanka’s flag — the latest in a series of takeovers of government buildings by demonstrators seeking a new government.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-13 07:58:30)

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#43 2022-07-13 10:20:18

tahanson43206
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

For Mars_B4_Moon re coverage of Sri Lankan leadership crisis...

Most of the coverage I've seen about this situation has been cosmetic ... in depth is probably available, but I haven't seen it yet.  your recent post provided a hint that the crisis in Sri lanka is partially due to errors of judgement of risk, made by folks who were self-confident enough to offer themselves as national leaders.

Leadership is risky at any level, and certainly that is true at a National level.

if you run across any deep dives into the decisions made in 2019 (or thereabouts) and more importantly, the execution of those decisions by the agencies and ultimately, but the farmers themselves, I'd definitely be interested.
I'm guessing (without knowing anything about the situation) that everyone had good will going into this.

This appears to have been an effort to change a culture .... books have been written about how difficult ** that ** is in a corporation, and I would imagine it would be even more difficult in a nation.

The only exception is the dictatorship model, or the equally distasteful total-defeat-in-war model.

That last one has been exercised quite often in human history.

This was (apparently) an effort to change agriculture in just 10 years, in a free nation.

(th)

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#44 2022-07-13 19:22:35

SpaceNut
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

Leave the politicians on the moon and all else can come to mars.

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#45 2022-07-13 19:47:07

tahanson43206
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

For SpaceNut .... Every human is a politician ....

No one will go to Mars in your proposal....

(th)

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#46 2022-07-13 19:55:14

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,992

Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

A politician is a person who is professionally involved in politics, especially as a holder of or a candidate for an elected office...

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#47 2022-07-14 05:26:19

tahanson43206
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

For SpaceNut .... thanks for your tightly focused definition in #46

A society which tries to  operate without people (members) who specialize in dealing with the complexity of human interactions is nothing but a mob, easily taken over by any upstart dictator wannabe who comes along.

The ** people ** have the power to determine how the political class evolves in ** any ** society (except one run by a dictator).  If you don't want individuals specializing in dealing with the complexity of human interactions, then you (the people) can limit terms of office, or introduce other policies.

But !!! Guess what!  Even a policy created by a group for it's own governance means that the individuals participating in the decision are acting as politicians.

I understand your distinction between the citizen and the professional who specializes in human interactions, but I argue that the distinction is missing the point.

Modern complex societies depend upon specialization of effort to be successful.

I suspect that if you studied the range of politicians in detail, you would find that the vast majority are simply performing their functions honorably and intelligently and in accordance with the desires of their constituents.

A few "politicians" depart from the standards, and become annoying.

What is interesting (to me at least) is that "annoying" politicians often (appear to) satisfy their constituents, and they are encouraged to remain in office when elections are held.

In another thread, following a post by Mars_B4_Moon, I have asked how a civilized society deals with annoying behavior by individual citizens.   Your remedy for an entire class of specialists seems to he to try to exclude that entire specialization from the culture you would build on Mars. 

My counter argument is that without that class of specialists, your community would be a mere mob, unable to govern itself.

(th)

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#48 2022-07-16 05:24:20

kbd512
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

How about a society governed by varying levels of conscious competence combined with ethics?

Anyone who is elected to power must first demonstrate conscious competence related to whatever role they will be elected to serve in.  A city official who manages the budget must first demonstrate managerial or stewardship skills over money, contracts, materials, and labor.  If they do not first demonstrate their skills and articulate what they are doing and why, then their ability to govern effectively is highly questionable, and it will be more of a matter of "dumb luck" than skill and ability to articulate why a specific course of action was taken.  I want to know that the people who are elected or appointed to leadership positions over me are minimally capable at their job, are ethical in their work, and do not take offense to explaining their actions to others, and make a genuine effort to articulate the thinking behind their behavior.

100% of the budget needs to appear in a hierarchical "drill down" of funds expended, funded programs of record, and contracts let.  Tax dollar expenditures should be readily accessible and viewable by anyone.  Even the military budget needs to be transparent.  There should be no slush funds, no secret programs that do not appear in the budget, etc.  Details of troop movements or special operations won't be disclosed to the public, but the total dollar figures attached to all military operations conducted during a fiscal year should be publicly available information and appropriately categorized.

We also need a simplified legal code that does not attempt to specify offenses in infinite detail, which is what the US government does at all levels, in order to keep the public ignorant of the law.  We need a generalist principle that applies to administration and prosecution of criminal and civil code.  For example, assault with a deadly weapon doesn't need to specify gun / knife / club / improvised weapon and different offenses and punishments for each.  If you assault someone with a weapon that could be or was used to seriously injure or kill, number and type are irrelevant whereas the criminal behavior is.  We need murder (deliberate premeditated killing), manslaughter (willful non-premeditated killing), and involuntary homicide (accidental / careless / reckless killing), assault (rape or other forms of sexual assault / robbery / kidnapping), threats (terrorizing people- I view what we call "terrorists" as organized criminal gangs), and theft (any tangible thing of estimable value) laws.  The punishments would be increased for commission of the same crimes against minor children, but applying the generalist principle, no "special laws" for "special people".  A criminal offense is a criminal offense, period.  Apart from rape / robbery / murder, no special laws for children committing violent crimes against other children, either.  Punishments would be reduced, but there would still be a punishment.  You'd go to a different facility if a child was jailed for murdering another child, for example.  There would also be separate wings for mentally deficient or the criminally insane, but insanity would not be an accepted defense against murder.  If the defendant said, "That guy drove me nuts, so I killed him", then we're still locking you up for 20 years to life, but not with the general prison population.  There could also be punishment increases for provable acts of racism or bigotry, but again, no special laws.

Someone like that former Police Officer in Oklahoma who raped and kidnapped minority women after stopping them for minor traffic violations could be, and I believe was, sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.  Basically, any "class act" like that guy should be permanently removed from society, as a function of the absurd amount of damage he was allowed to do to both his victims and community trust in their own government.  That said, there will be none of this "social justice" bullcrap.  One person behaving criminally does not equate to everyone else being a criminal, unless they were complicit in the criminal behavior.

On that note, government personnel will not be functionally immune to "dereliction of duty" or "criminal negligence" charges, as they largely are in the United States outside of our military.  If someone like him was your direct report, then you're losing your job at a bare minimum if you fail to disclose any evidence of criminal behavior and pursue disciplinary action.  I realize Police Officers will always be subjected to the capricious behavior of criminals, which is why all interactions with the public must be recorded and any attempt to conceal / destroy / alter video evidence from public scrutiny shall be prosecuted.

If you stole money from someone else, it shouldn't make a bit of difference that it was money from a federal contract spent on activities unrelated to execution of the contract, a grocery store cash register that you robed, cash in a bank vault you broke into, or personal property you walked off with.  Dollar figures should be attached to theft, because that's what counts to those who are out the money.  Petty theft ($20 or less; Class C misdemeanor with fines), theft ($21 to $500; Class B misdemeanor with fine and community service), larceny ($500 to $1,000; class A misdemeanor with community service or jail time), and grand larceny ($1,001+; felony punishable with fines and prison sentences).  Punishments should be commensurate with the dollar figure stolen (jail and prison sentences or fines adjust on a progressive scale and not more than the crime itself).

Someone like a Bernie Madoff, who stole the life savings of retirees, can be sentenced to 20 years to life in prison for his crimes and ordered to pay restitution through liquidation of whatever assets he still has, plus future earnings- effectively working to "pay back" the people he impoverished.  Maybe if a Bernie Madoff really was good with investing money, then we'd opt to confine him to a small apartment and have him working 8 to 12 hours per day as a stock trader to replenish the retirement savings of his victims.

If we have a triple axe murderer / cannibal like Jeffrey Dahmer, then we cannot release someone like him back into the public, because the risk of him murdering again is a near-certainty.  Therefore, someone like Jeffrey Dahmer would be imprisoned without the possibility of parole.  He would not be idle in prison, though.  He would be assigned to make articles of clothing or furniture or do mining or sewage system maintenance for the colony, under guard of course.  Ditto for repeat sex offenders.  If they rape more than one person or twice to the same person, then it's not a one-time psychotic behavior or coincidence, it's a pattern.  Those people also need to be permanently removed from the public.  Ditto for kidnappers.

One judge, one jury of your peers if you want a jury trial (defendant's option), one prosecutor (who must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt), one defendant, one defense attorney (appointed by the state if you cannot afford one).  Additional legal counsel can be sought out pre-trial or during recess, but won't be present in the court room.  This is an attempt to minimize the cheap lawyer tricks and one side overwhelming the other with money and lawyers.  Whether you're a multi-billion dollar corporation or an individual, you get one attorney to represent you, so choose wisely.  Furthermore, only one attempt at an appeal- no endless appeals cycles squandering public time and money.  There will be no death sentences, because we cannot afford to lose the labor input and we can't simultaneously claim to value human life while potentially putting innocent people to death.  There will be no cruel or unusual punishments (judges have some leeway to be creative if they think they'll get a better result for all involved- such as having a car thief repair cars for 2 years or making a cheque forger look for forgeries), but work is mandatory.  There will be no idle hands in a jail or prison.  Every prisoner there will still hold a job, and receive food and shelter as remuneration for services rendered, thereby reinforcing the work ethic we wish to inculcate into our idealized society, even amongst the criminals.

There could be a literal handful of exceptions where the death penalty is warranted, such as aiding an enemy during time of war (high treason) or misbehavior before the enemy (cowardice) or dereliction of duty (being drunk or asleep on watch during a time of war), but this should mostly apply to government and especially military personnel.  Execution will be by firing squad, not electrocution or poisoning or any other nonsense.  However poor of an excuse for a soldier that some specific man might be, he shall receive a soldier's death as punishment for failing to carry out his duties in accordance with the law.  The state may also optionally execute a prisoner who escapes from prison and commits another violent crime (sexual assault / robbery / murder), but only after another trial and conviction and one attempt at an appeal.  I also expect that this will be exceptionally rare.  If you're that intent on destroying civilized society for personal gain, then perhaps we no longer have a need for you.  Precious resources will not be squandered on someone so dedicated to hurting their brothers and sisters.  If you're a car thief who escapes and steals another car without any violence, then we're not going to put someone to death over something like that.  If you escape from prison and shoot someone to steal their car, then the death penalty is on the table.  In any rare case where a death penalty is sought by the state, a death sentence will be handed down by a jury of your peers, rather than a judge.  I expect that there will be no 3rd / 4th / 5th chances at "leading a better life", though.

I expect that somewhere between 1% and 3% of a large enough population will demonstrate some form of anti-social / criminal behavior that goes beyond misdemeanor.  To prevent that from happening more often, we will mandate that all children have a mother and a father, or two parents.  It makes little difference if it's two women or two men, but someone needs to provide unconditional love and someone needs to be a disciplinarian.  A mother is someone who looks after you.  A father is someone who makes sure you're looking after yourself, or personal discipline, to the degree that you can as a child who is still in the process of becoming an adult.  All children need both roles filled at varying points in their life, or they do not properly mature into young adults.  Pretending that this protocol for raising children is optional can and will bring down any civilized society, which is what we see in too many societies here on Earth.

Civil code is more difficult to adjudicate.  I don't really know what to do here because I don't know how much will even be applicable to a Mars colony or settlement, but again, I would like to apply generalist principles that prevent society from becoming an overly-litigious administrative state.  We would need contract and property, liability / tort, family, and nuisance laws.  Since our society would require that all children have parents, I am hoping that this will tend to limit the extent to which people willfully abuse or sabotage their personal relationships, as it relates to family law, but that's probably also wishful thinking.

If you marry someone, then you don't get to divorce them, so take care who you decide to marry and have children with.  One side or the other is not ending up with all the assets in a divorce, as happens here on Earth, merely because they're unhappy with the other party.  If Wife A decides she wants Husband B after marrying Husband A, then both parties are equally responsible for raising any children, neither side gets more than half of anything, and afterwards she still has to show up and be a mother to her children, plus whatever children Husband B has.  Basically, you don't get to renege on your prior commitments because you decide they're inconvenient, you only have the option of further burdening yourself with new commitments.  This puts all parties involved in an unenviable position, which tends to discourage the plainly false "greener grass" idea.  The grass is never greener and it's still just grass.  This will tend to have the effect of producing fewer children, but hopefully raised by higher quality parents who are more dedicated to their responsibilities.  Since there is no sex without consequences in the real world, if you get a woman pregnant then she just became your wife, which you are now legally responsible for.  Basically, don't have sex with anyone you're not willing to marry and have children with.

Anyway, proving competence to govern and establishment of basic law are hard requirements for Martian settlements.  Any long-lived and basically functional government will require executive, legislative, and judicial branches.  For what should be obvious reasons, those functions of government must be separated from each other, limits on power clearly defined, term limits imposed to prevent formation of an oligarchy, and rules concerning what jobs can be held before and after government service.  If you're a lobbyist, then you cannot serve in government, nor can you become one for some period of time after government service.  No campaign contributions will be permitted beyond a nominal dollar figure, and every donation a matter of public record.  Judicial nominees will serve 8 year terms vs life terms.  Every other elected offical will serve a 4 year term, so that they're not constantly campaigning instead of doing their job.  Nobody can serve more than 8 years in government, except for military or administrative service personnel who can serve a maximum of 20 years, so leaders will come and go.  No special privileges will be conferred to those who serve, after their term of service expires- no "free health care" for life.  The legislative branch will not be allowed to set their own salaries, either.  The salaries of all elected officials will be commensurate with the median income of their society.  If they want more money, then the only way to do that is to improve the economic output of their people.

The military will have no flag officers.  Every officer's career path will end with command of a specific military unit at the rank of Captain or Colonel.  Basically, no institutional military personnel allowed, only commanding officers in charge of war fighters.  American military experience has shown that this is the level at which useful organizational change takes place, when required, rather than old men and women riding desks for that past 10+ years.  The Congress shall evaluate the performance of executive officers and recommend them for command billets.  There is still a deep connection to the men and women serving under commanding officers who attain this rank.  The US Marine Corps still puts full Colonels in front line combat units with their troops, so poor decision making tends to be self-correcting.  That said, promotions need to be merit-based, rather than seniority-based.  Any initial military force will be quite small and (hopefully) very rarely used for its intended purpose.  Therefore, a sort of "National Guard" may make more sense than an "Active Duty" type service, whereby military training is periodically conducted for set periods of times, with infrequent deployments.  It's probable that the military and policing forces will largely be the same people serving in different capacities at different points in time.

To wit, we only need ground troops, policing may preclude the use of lethal weapons for pure survival reasons, such as not putting extra holes in pressurized structures where they don't belong.  However, much to the protest of people who have been protected by professional military forces their entire lives, a credible military force requires lethal weapons.  We could limit the deployment of lethal weapons to small caliber cannons and missiles aboard armored vehicles, small airborne recon drones, and planetary defense type artillery such as lasers or rail guns to prevent bombardment from space.  I don't see much point to employment of more powerful weapon systems like hypersonic missiles when a single hole will render a settlement uninhabitable.  Basically, you have small tankettes to prevent ground invasions and far more powerful stationary weapons to prevent attack from space.  Anything beyond that is superfluous.  It may throw debris a bit farther, but it's spending absurd money on low-probability / immediately fatal / ultimately pointless endeavors.  Anyone with the resources to live on Mars will simply set up shop a few yards away from you.  The weaponry still has to be there to preempt pirate or nation-state attacks, but that's about it.

Police can carry 40mm baton rounds and tasers, which will drop anyone they hit, but won't penetrate through or rupture pressure hulls.  Some form of laser channel weapon could supply a lethal option at a distance, when required.  Knives remain the most viable "close-combat in a phone booth" option, as always.  All of this talk about weaponry relates back to law enforcement, defense, and making reasonable compromises with sophomoric people who believe that scribbling on paper negates criminality or the use of weapons in criminal acts.

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#49 2022-07-16 05:51:43

kbd512
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

If it's not apparent, all of this is intended to minimize the very real labor and monetary expenditures that all relate back to bureaucratic administrative states, militarization, etc.  We start with known quantities that have been proven to provide effective legal basis for the existence of legitimate government, policing (because laws are meaningless without credible / equal / proportional enforcement), and national defense capabilities to overcome probable military threats, rather than imagined ones- such as the build-up of insane numbers of nuclear weapons capable of extinguishing all life multiple times over.  More broadly, simplification is intended to forego some of the insanity of central legislative and military planners who rarely experience the negative impacts associated with their poor governance decisions.

Here on Earth, Colonels and Captains effectively "run" Western-style military forces from an operational command-and-control standpoint, in the same way that Non-Commissioned Officers run day-to-day military operations.

We get bizarre and impractical weaponry from procurement and developmental organizations largely intended to provide pathways for officers at this rank to the flag ranks.  By removing incentives to concoct new military spending boondoggles, the required funding for other functions of government and the citizenry remain available.  Basically, 10% of the total government budget, at most, should be allocated to military and policing.

Similarly, there are too many perverse incentives on the part of the legislature to spend public money on projects that are or should be outside of government.  As near as I can tell, a government's primary reason for existence is to defend its people, both from external threats and from criminality.  Maintaining critical infrastructure relates back to national defense and general welfare.  The regulatory structures (food, water, medicine, shelter, transportation) should also relate back to curbing criminality.  However, given that there will be a critical shortage of people more often than not, extreme forms of regulatory streamlining need to take place.

The FDA can determine if food is edible, EPA determines potability standards for water, EPA and OSHA determines acceptable limits for environmental hazards and toxins, NHTSA can determine whether or not a motor vehicle is suitable for transport, etc.  We don't need to precisely replicate these regulatory agencies on Mars until such time as there is enough indigenous manufacturing capability that products made for Mars diverge significantly from what we use here on Earth.

Duplicating the capabilities of the private sector must also be avoided.  Do we really need separate government labs for R&D, or is it acceptable to use corporate facilities and pay some nominal fee for use of the facility?  Given that most functions of this government should be civil rather than military in nature, I think the cost savings to the tax payers need to be considered.

Can Mars vehicles be crash-tested on Earth under representative driving conditions, then given NHTSA's gold seal of approval, or will this new government insist on smashing perfectly good vehicles on Mars "just to be sure"?

Given that government testing of new drugs and vaccines is mostly performed by pharmaceutical companies, why not simply evaluate results and approve or disapprove new drugs, (largely what we already use)?

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#50 2022-07-16 06:28:49

tahanson43206
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Re: Government on Mars - ...what are the options?

Regarding Posts #48 and #49

At first reading, my impression is that kbd512 has invested considerable thought in attempting to define a way of living together on Mars, in just two posts.

With this contribution by kbd512, I am inspired to read the entire topic from the top, to see what others may have posted in earlier times.

SearchTerm:government kbd512 concise overview
SearchTerm:culture Mars but potentially any group of humans

A ** very ** serious debate is under way in the United States in mid-2022 ... It is a debate about governance.

It's not at all clear (to me at least) how this debate is going to turn out, but it is NOT theoretical.  It appears that there are individuals in the United States who believe that it is their right, and indeed DUTY to control the lives of other human beings.

The core element of the debate (as nearly as I can tell) seems to be the definition of when life (of an individual) begins.

In the past, for the most part, humans have dealt with this question by (arbitrarily) deciding that "life" (for an individual) begins when that individual draws breath outside the womb.

In recent times, as technology has advanced, it has been possible to enable a developing fetus to survive to adulthood by artificially simulating the womb.

With advances of technology, those who believe that life begins at conception have found themselves more and more able to find support for that view.

It appears (again, as nearly as I can tell) that in some regions of the United States, there are enough citizens who hold this view so that legally binding legislation can be passed and put into force to make this belief a policy enforceable on all citizens.

This situation is most definitely NOT theoretical, and it most definitely IS applicable to the future Mars project.

In the past day, I have watched as citizens debate whether a being that results from joining of an egg and a sperm has the duties and responsibilities of citizenship, independent of the woman who happens to be providing the environment for gestation.

I suppose that a Social Security number could be assigned to the set of four or so cells that appear immediately after the egg has accepted the sperm.

The debate is NOT theoretical ... A legal case is already in existence in which a woman claimed multiple person occupancy on a highway, because she is carrying another "person" in the vehicle.

My guess is that this situation in the United States is going to get more interesting with each passing day, as the implications of this initiative by a subset of the population become more clear to the majority of the population.

(th)

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