More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

RobertDyck · 2004-08-05 23:38:57

I should mention, at the Humans in Space conference in Banff there was a Science rack on display. It was made by the same company that makes science racks for ISS, and was identical in every way. This symposium was of scientists who conduct experiments in space, so they were trying to sell use of their rack. The rack had sides, top, bottom, and glides on the inside of the sides into which you could plug a drawer. The rack had a computer with monitor, keyboard, mouse, and CD-ROM drive. The back of the rack was open since it would be against the station module outer wall. However, the spot for the drawer had an electrical backplane that had a socket for an electrical plug and data socket. The drawer would plug in simply by pushing the whole drawer all the way in. The rack also had a power supply that converted station power to voltage normal for science experiments. As an option they had a standard drawer into which you could plug multiple little modules. The computer is getting old already, but it works. Computers closely follow Tomas Edison's statement: "If it works, it's obsolete." If you really had to replace a science rack, the new one could be sent as a kit, just like a bookcase in a box that you can get from department stores. It's unlikely science experiments would require changing the physical dimensions of a rack, but replacing the computer might be a concern. The new rack pieces could be sent on Progress or ATV.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-06 05:49:21

The only problem with the retiring of the shuttle for 2010 and having the CEV operational for manned flight is that it is not expected to be man rated until 2014.

Are we all willing to have so many years with no space flights just look at how we are after only almost 2 years.

Since there is expected to be a fly off between two competitors, I assume Boeing and Lockheed for the CEV starting some time near or before 2008. Personally I would buy the first to get a complete man rated unit by the 2008 date.

SpaceNut · 2004-08-31 06:43:38

While not being a cutback due to reduced shuttle flights it how ever is effected by when will it actually go on the ealiest possible one.

A room with a view for the International Space Station: Completion of the cupola observation module
http://www.esa.int/export/esaCP/SEMZH40 … dex_0.html

The cupola project is the outcome of a bilateral barter agreement between the European Space Agency and NASA, under which ESA is providing the cupola for the ISS in exchange for Shuttle transportation of European equipment and experiments to the station.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-07 10:23:49

Recent space walks have shown that the station size or length is at best border line to the ability of gyro's to compensate.

Leaving their orbiting outpost unmanned, the international space station's two astronauts floated outside on a spacewalk Friday and plugged in new antennas and replaced a worn-out piece of cooling equipment.

One end of the space station pitched upward and the entire outpost eventually tilted 70 degrees off-center, Mission Control reported. As they did during last month's tilt, the U.S. gyroscopes reached their stabilizing limit and Russian thrusters had to take over control of the complex, officials said. None of this disrupted the spacewalk.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-09 21:13:33

Oxygen Supplies Tight on ISS this makes the second time this year that the crew is on the edge of needing to leave the station if anything should happen to the resupply ship if the unit is not fixable.

9 September 2004: Oxygen problems plague space station, MSNBC
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5953450/

8 September 2004: NASA Space Station On-Orbit Status 8 September 2004
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=13906

"Update on Elektron: The Russian oxygen (O2) generator is still off. [The crew performed limited troubleshooting this morning for the ground to acquire diagnostic telemetry. The problem this time is apparently not with bubbles in the BZh Fluid Unit but with the unit's oxygen & hydrogen gas analyzer, which is a failure mode not seen before. With Elektron off, ISS will reach the lower O2 limit in the cabin air in 7 days. Beyond that, there is 62 lbs (28 kg) of O2 in Progress 15P, enough for 16 days. There are also 84 SFOG (solid-fuel oxygen generator) "candles" on board, which would supply another 42 days' worth of O2. In short, total O2 margin is well above and beyond what is needed to make it to the next resupply date (Progress 16, on 11/26) and maintain redlines.]"

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-09 22:39:50

Turning into Mir-II a little quicker then I thought it would... no US hab, no US LSS system... even with a Zarya-II sent up, would its LSS system be enough for a crew of six?

SpaceNut · 2004-09-10 19:19:23

It is to bad that all we seem to be doing is fixing the equipment that breaks, replacing it on the next progress or shuttle rather than redesigning what seems to be the problem and ending the degrading before it can continue to be big problems with all the partners.

dicktice · 2004-09-12 12:04:47

It must have been pretty hard to design and engineer, on Earth, a system which separates hydrogen gas bubbles and oxygen gas bubbles in microgravity. The original Russian inventor of the so-called Elektron waste-water electrolysis units, now giving trouble on the ISS, seems has taken to the grave certain critical design or production details. I wonder who we can find now to blame for allowing this "new" crisis to develop?

Rxke · 2004-09-12 12:55:47

It is to bad that all we seem to be doing is fixing the equipment that breaks, replacing it on the next progress or shuttle rather than redesigning what seems to be the problem and ending the degrading before it can continue to be big problems with all the partners.

In the MSN article you posted they say, Russia is doing exactly that: building a newer unit, which replaces the parts that gave all the headaches with another system.

dicktice · 2004-09-12 16:43:54

Here's a summary of what's available by Googling
"The Elektron Device. "

The ‘Elektron’ device supplies the International Space Station with an unlimited supply of breathing oxygen, given an unlimited supply of water as raw material (the water mostly comes from partially distilled urine, but any water will do as long as it doesn’t have harmful impurities). But the electro-mechanical device must also function, and over the years cosmonauts on Mir and on the ISS have tinkered with units, swapping out spare parts or rebuilt worn-out parts, to nurse the units along. The US has nothing like it qualified for long-term space missions.

There's lots more, including photos, chemical reactions, block diagrams, engineering, production history, etc. Really, an impressive, space-proven device which goes back to Mir in the 80's and, like anything automaic and vital that "flys," needs constant maintenance attention to counteract Murphy's Law for Space, which states: "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong, same as on Earth."

SpaceNut · 2004-09-12 20:19:10

Yup you are right re-read at the bottom of the article about the redesigned and of an American design in the works but 4 years plus before it will be available down from the 6.

The new devices will not use the liquid-gel electrolyte system that has led to all previous units eventually breaking down. Instead, they will rely on a solid polymer electrolyte.

With Nasa budget issues I thing that the later date is more the target rather than the shorter one.

Design of such a device is a must for long duration flight to mars.

Question for ISS unit, What is being done with the extra Hydrogen given off by the current units, Is it being collected and reused as well? Also how much over the period of time of operation is available for other uses?

Rxke · 2004-09-13 01:15:13

Yeah, the Elektron unit is an impressive beasty.

It gets bashed a lot in the press 'baulky Russian technology' but you have to consider these things have to work for years. Do you consider your car baulky technology if you have to change out tyres (tires?) oil etc?

I hope NASA's system doesn't get rushed too much, would be crazy to send up such an important piece of h/w when it's not fully reliable yet..

BTW: I was always under the impression the US lab had additional life support, ( US Lab Module called Environmental Control and Life Support (ECLSS) )but if was off-line, if this is the case: why so? Or did it never get shipped?

SpaceNut · 2004-09-13 07:11:12

Why is there no secondary backup unit on board for such a critical item?

dicktice · 2004-09-14 16:54:11

The three Elerktron units should have provided enough redundancy, if things had gone according to plan.
Hydrogen gets vented outside. Every highschool student who has blown up the experiment in the chem lab by forgetting to purge the glassware, will know why.
So the hydrogen, at least for the present, is being wasted, and the Elektron eventually runs out, even of waste water. My grand conclusion is--wait for it--that plain old H2O will remain the most important "provision" on any human space voyage as far into the future as you care to imagine.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-15 06:33:45

Why are we waiting the hydrogen? This is equally as valuable when looking at say an ION drive engine to keep the ISS orbit from decaying.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-15 06:54:09

15 September 2004 13:48
Technical hitch delays Russia space station launch
http://www.gateway2russia.com/art....72.html

postponed because of problems with the docking system

Commodore · 2004-09-15 07:00:37

Why are we waiting the hydrogen? This is equally as valuable when looking at say an ION drive engine to keep the ISS orbit from decaying.

I suggested such a thing in a different context. Apparently it produces static electricity.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-15 08:36:19

Not really, hydrogen makes terrible ion drive fuel, and its hard to store, and there just isn't that much of it. The Astronauts simply don't breath that much oxygen to generate a substantial amount of hydrogen. Its worthless.

dicktice · 2004-09-15 09:55:59

Why are we waiting the hydrogen? This is equally as valuable when looking at say an ION drive engine to keep the ISS orbit from decaying.

Because (as any highschool chemistry student klutz will testify) hydrogen gas will explode when combined with the cabin's air, at one bar, if ignited by any spark of electricity.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-15 10:10:56

Yes and so was the Hindenburg but not in an atmosphere with no oxygen. Simply vaccum or pressurize the collection tube contents, passing it into a cooling unit and then store in an external tank for use. We do that everyday for the shuttles fuel use, how hard can it be in space.

GCNRevenger · 2004-09-15 11:29:56

Yes and so was the Hindenburg but not in an atmosphere with no oxygen. Simply vaccum or pressurize the collection tube contents, passing it into a cooling unit and then store in an external tank for use. We do that everyday for the shuttles fuel use, how hard can it be in space.

Answer: Real Hard

You want to take a room-temperature gas, under low pressure, and turn it into a liquid that is several hundred degrees below zero, and then put that in a tank on the outside that will get to be 200 degrees in the sun, without it boiling off faster then you can bottle it? Hydrogen can boil off at rates as high as 1% per day with basic tankage, and the smaller the tank the worse it is. Do you know how big and how much energy a Hydrogen liquification plant is on Earth?

And it Really. Is. Worthless... it makes terrible ion drive fuel, and with no supply of oxygen, is worthless for rocket fuel too. And where does the oxygen go? The astronauts breathe it of course!

Worth-Less.

SpaceNut · 2004-09-20 06:05:25

Talk about being untimely, "US-Russian agreement, which was signed eight years ago, made it incumbent on the Russian aerospace agency to provide 11 Soyuz spacecraft free of charge for flying Russian cosmonauts and US astronauts to the ISS. Russia will fulfil such commitments 18 months from now. The eleventh Soyuz ferry will lift off in October 2005, shaping course for the ISS. It will remain docked with the orbiter for six consecutive months, playing the part of a rescue pod and returning to Planet Earth in April 2006. The Russian Federal Space Agency will subsequently demand that NASA pay for its services. "

US MUST REIMBURSE RUSSIA FOR USING SOYUZ SPACECRAFT

http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?msg_id=4873236

SpaceNut · 2004-09-20 07:01:29

Good news, that the oxygen generation unit is temporarily fixed as indicated though the weekends stories. But with out more support flight of materials and parts is it just an accident waiting to happen. Will we be able to wait until the shuttle is flying?

deagleninja · 2004-09-20 08:20:05

Anyone know the lastest on the Russian-US standoff? Links?

SpaceNut · 2004-09-20 09:28:04

The above link was all that I have found today.

But on the return to flight on safe haven use of the ISS for the shuttle the Abc hurricane story,
Hurricanes May Have Upset NASA's Schedule
NASA Oversight Panel Worries Hurricanes May Have Upset NASA's Schedule for Resuming Flights
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap2 … _2052.html

Quote:
NASA's backup plan, in case of irreparable shuttle damage, would be for the seven astronauts to move into the international space station until a rescue ship is launched. But that assumes all the station's life-support equipment is working.

If the oxygen generator is still not working right next year and cannot be replaced, that alone would probably be enough to keep Discovery on the ground, Covey said.

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#51 2004-08-05 23:38:57

Re: More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

#52 2004-08-06 05:49:21

Re: More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

#53 2004-08-31 06:43:38

Re: More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

#54 2004-09-07 10:23:49

Re: More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

#55 2004-09-09 21:13:33

Re: More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

#56 2004-09-09 22:39:50

Re: More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

#57 2004-09-10 19:19:23

Re: More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

#58 2004-09-12 12:04:47

Re: More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision?

#59 2004-09-12 12:55:47

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#60 2004-09-12 16:43:54

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#61 2004-09-12 20:19:10

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#62 2004-09-13 01:15:13

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#63 2004-09-13 07:11:12

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#64 2004-09-14 16:54:11

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#65 2004-09-15 06:33:45

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#66 2004-09-15 06:54:09

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#67 2004-09-15 07:00:37

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#68 2004-09-15 08:36:19

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#69 2004-09-15 09:55:59

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#70 2004-09-15 10:10:56

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#71 2004-09-15 11:29:56

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#72 2004-09-20 06:05:25

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#73 2004-09-20 07:01:29

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