Paperless Mars

soph · 2003-03-11 17:00:22

actually, there are several methods of writing to CD-ROMs, ISO is just the most prevalent.

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-11 17:24:21

Yeah dicktice, I've heard of this funny Aussie money. I read that it's not even made of wood pulp, which is quite interesting (don't know if that's true or not). I think the future of ?paper? really lies in very robust, cheap, OLEDs. We're living in an interesting era.

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-11 17:28:11

Oh, soph, no... you're talking about logical data structures. ISO/IEC are the standards for data CD-ROMs (the physical data with CRC algorithms etc). I think autio CDs (and CD-RWs) are the only formats which aren't ISO/IEC standards, but even still, the point stands... we ?have standards? that could be ?called? our Rosetta Stones.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-11 18:57:05

The world's first polymer banknote was an Australian $10 note, issued in 1988 to commemorate our bicentenary.
By 1996, all Australia's banknotes were plastic.
The material used is a non-porous polymer with a specially developed protective coating which keeps the notes cleaner and prevents any water absorption.
These plastic notes last 4-5 times longer than paper notes and have a see-through window feature which makes them among the most difficult in the world to counterfeit. An added bonus is that, when they're worn out, they are recycled into compost bins and plumbing fittings!
For ease of recognition - especially for the visually impaired - every denomination is a different colour and a slightly different size.

Australia was the first country to have all polymer banknotes but the world is starting to follow our lead. Australia now prints plastic banknotes for Thailand, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Kuwait, Western Samoa, Singapore, Brunei, Sri Lanka and New Zealand. And we produce and export the polymer material to other countries which do their own banknote printing.

I suppose Americans have no trouble with their currency but, when I was over there for a brief visit, the 'sameness' of all the banknotes had me examining each one I tendered in case I got it wrong. Combine that with my lack of familiarity with the coinage and you can imagine the looks of tortured resignation on the faces of the cashiers in stores we visited!!
Nobody seemed to see the funny side of my ineptitude. I guess they all thought I was mentally challenged or something! (Waddya mean, you think so too?!! )

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-11 19:06:04

Can it be ripped? Or is it really strong plastic? I always thought Aussie money ?felt? like wood pulp paper. I quite like the idea of making money out of polymers.

Oh, and I believe the US does recycle our money. Recycling is done a lot in the US, on the utility / public level. Yay for government.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-11 21:40:36

Hi Josh!
I've never ripped one myself but I have seen torn ones so, yes, they can be damaged.
But they do actually feel plasticky and they're harder to fold than paper money. The different colours are really very nicely done - only the $100 note is green!

Phobos · 2003-03-11 22:44:32

I suppose Americans have no trouble with their currency but, when I was over there for a brief visit, the 'sameness' of all the banknotes had me examining each one I tendered in case I got it wrong. Combine that with my lack of familiarity with the coinage and you can imagine the looks of tortured resignation on the faces of the cashiers in stores we visited!!
Nobody seemed to see the funny side of my ineptitude. I guess they all thought I was mentally challenged or something! (Waddya mean, you think so too?!! )

LOL, your message prompted me to pick up a few coins and examine them and I noticed none of them actually have the currency value written on them. They have nebulous indicators like "one dime" or "one nickel" and I can see how people could easily get mixed up on which coin is worth ten cents or five cents. And not everyone might instinctively realize that one quarter is meant to be 1/4 of a dollar in value. That's a good idea about making different notes different sizes. US currency isn't exactly user friendly for the visually impaired.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-12 00:20:10

Yeah Phobos!
In the end, so as to avoid producing apoplexy in the people behind you in the line, you just keep throwing banknotes and coins at the cashier and hope he or she is honest enough to stop you when you've paid enough!!!
This becomes a dodgy system with, say, taxi drivers because of the tipping tradition in America ... think about it!!

P.S. May I ask you how your hand is these days? ???

Palomar · 2003-03-12 07:51:13

I suppose Americans have no trouble with their currency but, when I was over there for a brief visit, the 'sameness' of all the banknotes had me examining each one I tendered in case I got it wrong. Combine that with my lack of familiarity with the coinage and you can imagine the looks of tortured resignation on the faces of the cashiers in stores we visited!!
Nobody seemed to see the funny side of my ineptitude. I guess they all thought I was mentally challenged or something! (Waddya mean, you think so too?!! )
LOL, your message prompted me to pick up a few coins and examine them and I noticed none of them actually have the currency value written on them. They have nebulous indicators like "one dime" or "one nickel" and I can see how people could easily get mixed up on which coin is worth ten cents or five cents. And not everyone might instinctively realize that one quarter is meant to be 1/4 of a dollar in value. That's a good idea about making different notes different sizes. US currency isn't exactly user friendly for the visually impaired.

*Well, Shaun, it may comfort you to know that I am -forever- confusing nickels with quarters, if I'm scrounging for change in my coin purse. I agree with Phobos. Just the other day, while making a purchase, I was sure I'd fished 2 quarters and a few pennies out...I pushed them toward the clerk, then realized one was a quarter and the other a nickel. I do this quite often, and I'm not sure how; nickels are a bit smaller and have a smooth edge...but still, it happens more times than I care to admit (embarrassing).

A few days ago I purchased a book of stamps from a postage-stamp vending machine at the post office; I pushed in a $20 bill for a $7.40 purchase. What returned were 12 dollar coins, of which there are now 2 types: Gold, with a Native American lady on it (she was the guide for Lewis & Clark, sorry forget the name right now) and a silver one, with Susan B. Anthony on it. I knew immediately what they were, but they are nearly exactly the same size as a quarter! Remember the old dollar coins, Phobos? The ones with John F. Kennedy on them? They were huge, unmistakable; but not these. The gold ones won't be confusing to use, but the silver ones -- good grief. I told my husband I wanted to use them immediately in the next purchase, afraid I'd confuse them with a quarter!

What gets fun, though -- in the northern part of the country -- is the occasional influx of Canadian coins. I recall a handful of times, as a kid in Iowa, pushing coins into a machine for soda or candy, and one drops through...why didn't it take? It's a Canadian quarter or dime, and the machine rejects them.

So Shaun, please don't feel self-conscious about it (if you do). I am always double-checking to be sure the $1 bill I've forked over isn't a $10 bill. Your post really brought to extra awareness the "sameness" of U.S. currency you speak of.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-12 08:22:07

Wow, I feel like I'm in the midst of the elderly what with all these posts about the difficulty of figuring out American currency!

Just kidding guys (and gals!). :laugh:

Anyway, if I recall correctly, the Susan B. Anthony was called to stop circulation, and I've honestly not found one in awhile. I use the new gold dollar a lot, it seems. They're actually quite novel. I recall when they first came out how saturated it was; at first it seemed to have taken the place of the paper dollar. Indeed, didn't they encourage cashiers to try distributing the gold dollar instead of paper or something? I recall many ocassions when I was handed the gold dollar instead of the paper dollar, it was interesting. The reason they wanted to saturate the system with a coin dollar, is because paper dollars cost so much; they don't last nearly as long.

I wonder how long this plastic money lasts compared to coinage. And I'm talking regular usage. This could lead to a discussion about money on Mars. Perhaps we'd be using Aussie style money.

soph · 2003-03-12 20:24:06

Or maybe e-money. That's what half of the money is nowadays anyway.

Phobos · 2003-03-12 20:43:21

In the end, so as to avoid producing apoplexy in the people behind you in the line, you just keep throwing banknotes and coins at the cashier and hope he or she is honest enough to stop you when you've paid enough!!!
This becomes a dodgy system with, say, taxi drivers because of the tipping tradition in America ... think about it!!

In Australia is it normal to tip people like cab drivers and waitresses/waiters? I should start educating myself on these things since I'm planning to go to Australia to check out that solar chimney they're building. 700,000 cubic meters of concrete, I don't think most people really comprehend just how much mud that is! It's the equivalent of about 70,000 concrete trucks! My hand is a bit stiff and I've developed this strange kind of "two handed" typing style that includes my good hand typing away on half the keyboard and my other one pecking away at the other half with my middle finger. :laugh:

So Shaun, please don't feel self-conscious about it (if you do). I am always double-checking to be sure the $1 bill I've forked over isn't a $10 bill. Your post really brought to extra awareness the "sameness" of U.S. currency you speak of.

I'm sometimes bad about giving cashiers a $10 bill when I thought I gave them a $20 bill and you can imagine the battle that usually ensues when I get the change back. It's always embarassing when there's other people in line and you suddenly look in your wallet and you realize that you actually didn't give them that $20 like you thought you had. I have a few of those dollar coins you mentioned. There's also that one dollar coin that has Saqajuweea (can't spell it to save my life), that Native American woman that accompanied Lewis and Clark on their expedition. It seems the treasury mints those coins mostly with collectors in mind. There's a brand new one out that has the shuttle on the front and on the back it shows an eagle perching on the moon. I'd like to see that one fall out of the vending machine when I get my change back.

And I'm talking regular usage. This could lead to a discussion about money on Mars. Perhaps we'd be using Aussie style money.

I wonder if we'd even use physical cash on Mars. We might use an electronic debit type system for registering transactions. I think if we do setup a system of currency on Mars though we should follow the Japanese system of having only one base unit, the yen, and no other sub-categories to confuse unaccustomed travellers. It'll certainly be easier on Shaun when he comes to Mars to sell his cows. Hmm, what we be a good name for the primary unit of money of Mars? The Olympus? "That'll be four olympians"

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-12 21:01:47

soph, I use cash almost exclusively.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-12 21:30:02

No, tipping is not the norm here. Though, if the service is exceptionally good, I will leave a $5 note at a restaurant - more as a token of appreciation than as the God-given birthright of waitstaff!!
And, if a taxi driver is especially helpful with luggage, I won't ask for change in many cases, or will ask for change from a rounded up figure. (i.e. For a $13 cab fare, I'll only ask for $5 change from a $20 note.)
So, as you can see from this, people here haven't got 10 or 20% gratuity figures in their heads. Anything you might want to give is really just an extra and you won't get punished for not leaving tips.

And thanks, everybody, for reassuring me about American currency - I don't feel quite so stupid now!

By the way, Phobos, I'm glad to know your hand is at least partially functional again. Here's hoping it makes a complete recovery!
But I think you'll have to forget about calling Martian currency units 'Olympians'. That's 4 whole syllables!! As it is, the two syllable 'Dollar' has been shortened to 'Buck' for convenience! God knows what they'd make of a 4 syllable word.
And who said anything about me selling my cows when I reach Mars?!! After spending 6 months in the Hab with a couple o' dozen head of cattle, all nice and cosy, I kinda think I'd miss 'em if I sold 'em!

P.S. I like all the American names for coins - quarter (or two
bits), dime, nickel, and penny. We don't have that here.

soph · 2003-03-12 21:34:21

Josh-how much of Bill Gates's net worth will he ever actually see in cash? How much of the entire value of the world's economy will we ever see in cash? If everybody in the world (and probably just about every country) tried to cash in their net worth, the world would go into chaos.

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-12 21:53:45

Shaun, I hate tipping, heh. Especially if the cabby is all chatty, or listening to the radio or something. I like quiet drives, so I can think! I don't haveit in my to tell the cabby to shut the freak up.

soph, um, obviously banks have their place, at least currently. I was just saying that for some people they are unnecessary. I can't reply to the rest of your comment because it would become off topic. I shouldn't have even replied in the first place...

soph · 2003-03-12 21:57:45

You missed the point of my post. Most "money" is really just electronic numbers. The cash we see is the tip of the iceberg.

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-12 22:03:03

I didn't miss your point, if you were to merely exapand your point you might see what I'm saying. Most ?money? is just aggregate resources. Take it and decentralize it.

soph · 2003-03-13 05:33:10

It is decentralized.

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-13 06:01:46

Then why do a good 1% of all people in the world own most of the resources? You call that decentralization?

This is going off on a tangent...

Here's an interesting thing about OLEDs: http://www.wave-report.com/tutorials/oled.htm

The technology is quite promising, and I think that OLEDs will take the place of books (for most people) in the future.

Palomar · 2003-03-13 07:50:48

P.S. I like all the American names for coins - quarter (or two
bits), dime, nickel, and penny. We don't have that here.

*Geez, I must have "Spring Fever"; when I read Shaun's "two bits," an old school cheer immediately popped into mind:

"Two bits!
Four bits!
Six bits,
A dollar!
All for [insert hometown's name],
Stand up and holler! YAAAYY!!" ::wave pompoms wildly::

Okay, got that out of my system...

Phobos, will Marsians even have the capability of printing legal tender? Paper and metal would be at a premium or nonexistant, unless they have an Earth-based company print the stuff and send it over (and then there are distribution and cash-flow problems to deal with). I think a credit/debit system would work best; initially speaking, it will almost have to.

"Olympians" as a name for money...cool. How about "Cys?" Short for "Cydonia." That'll be 5 Cys, please. Hmmm. ???

Now watch Phobos up the cost of a Marsian Martini from 4 credits to 5. :laugh: :;):

Shaun: Do bring your cows to Mars. Cows are good people, and I'll gladly lend a hand to helping with the calves.

--Cindy

soph · 2003-03-13 17:30:11

Then why do a good 1% of all people in the world own most of the resources? You call that decentralization?

In America, in regulated capitalism, it is far less polarized. Kinda funny-in socialist economies, it's far more polarized.

No, what I meant by decentralization is that there is no one concentration of resources. Money is spread around the world, and most money does not exist.

Josh Cryer · 2003-03-13 19:40:52

Okay soph... tell that to third world countries whose wealth went from being their own to someone elses overnight with the advent of globalization. Oh, and centralization of power weren't socialistic by Orwell's personal definition, which was the point of his books.

Cindy, how would that be pronounced? ?Sigh??

Would pulp paper would be very hard to get on Mars. Growing wood is just prohibitively expensive. You could spend the time, space, and energy growing plants, and you probably would. Paper wouldn't be done with, though. I mean, I can't imagine people going over to a completely debit based system, just because of the trust involved in such things. Creating a system completely hack proof is possible, but for inital settlers, indeed, even larger pre-world government populations, I can't imagine that everyones systems would be totally compatable in that respect. Perhaps not until we have at least an internet infrastructure spanning the Martian globe!

So, I think that we'd be using paper, in whatever form. Perhaps we'd use tablets like UPS does (only much cooler) for signing contracts and so on.

At first I suspect the inital settlers would define some sort of money, IOUs in a way. These IOU's would probably be made of something physical, something tangible. Polymer based papers or maybe even metal, refined metal would be valuable, and so could polymers if made in such a way that recycling is effortless. The key, though, on Mars, is that if you're going to have money, it can't be wasteful, and it must be secure. Digital would be the way in the long term, but it'd have to wait.

soph · 2003-03-13 19:44:25

Okay soph... tell that to third world countries whose wealth went from being their own to someone elses overnight with the advent of globalization. Oh, and centralization of power weren't socialistic by Orwell's personal definition, which was the point of his books.

Like Ghana? No wait, they are thriving now in a capitalist system. Or China? No....see above. Or Russia, now emerging from a rough transition? No, they are moving on up.

Yes, there are third world countries where capitalism doesn't work, but that isn't the fault of the system, it is the result of repressive regimes that twist the system to serve the government. This is not capitalism, in any reasonable sense.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-14 02:19:45

Cindy, you're really a very nice person to offer to help with the cows when we get to Mars! But, before this cow thing gets completely out of hand, I should point out that I barely know one end of a cow from the other - except that one end slobbers all over you and the other end ... well, .. does something else all over you!
I don't remember now exactly how I came to be confused with ol' Farmer Brown (maybe I suggested cows for milk and for their contribution to soil creation, or something), but Cindy, there's no way you would be helping me with the calving!! At best, I would be handing you ropes and towels - not the other way around!!!

But I appreciated your very kind offer anyhow!

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2003-03-11 17:00:22

Re: Paperless Mars

#52 2003-03-11 17:24:21

Re: Paperless Mars

#53 2003-03-11 17:28:11

Re: Paperless Mars

#54 2003-03-11 18:57:05

Re: Paperless Mars

#55 2003-03-11 19:06:04

Re: Paperless Mars

#56 2003-03-11 21:40:36

Re: Paperless Mars

#57 2003-03-11 22:44:32

Re: Paperless Mars

#58 2003-03-12 00:20:10

Re: Paperless Mars

#59 2003-03-12 07:51:13

Re: Paperless Mars

#60 2003-03-12 08:22:07

Re: Paperless Mars

#61 2003-03-12 20:24:06

Re: Paperless Mars

#62 2003-03-12 20:43:21

Re: Paperless Mars

#63 2003-03-12 21:01:47

Re: Paperless Mars

#64 2003-03-12 21:30:02

Re: Paperless Mars

#65 2003-03-12 21:34:21

Re: Paperless Mars

#66 2003-03-12 21:53:45

Re: Paperless Mars

#67 2003-03-12 21:57:45

Re: Paperless Mars

#68 2003-03-12 22:03:03

Re: Paperless Mars

#69 2003-03-13 05:33:10

Re: Paperless Mars

#70 2003-03-13 06:01:46

Re: Paperless Mars

#71 2003-03-13 07:50:48

Re: Paperless Mars

#72 2003-03-13 17:30:11

Re: Paperless Mars

#73 2003-03-13 19:40:52

Re: Paperless Mars

#74 2003-03-13 19:44:25

Re: Paperless Mars

#75 2003-03-14 02:19:45

Re: Paperless Mars

Board footer