Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

clark · 2004-06-21 14:05:14

:laugh:

Josh Cryer · 2004-06-21 14:18:32

MWAH, maybe we do!!! Just kidding. Really.

I personally don't even see it being feasible, like I've essentially said before, I think economic dynamics are going to be a lot different for Mars. More along the line of KSR's books. Primarily Blue Mars, actually.

And I think that though the Mars Society's approach would hardly condone illegal activities, there is still the point that the very meaning of "legality" would be different on Mars. What some here may be calling "bad" others might consider "okay" and commonplace.

The Mars Society isn't going to be taking over Kennedy Space center to secretly send off Mars Direct. But people in the Mars society might 'smuggle' moonshine if they ever got to Mars and could make some!

(I don't think anyone would see anything wrong with that, either.)

smurf975 · 2004-06-21 14:33:13

Maybe some of those scienctists from the Acheron Labs will cook up some synthetic drugs such as XTC, crack or whatever. Which could be in high demand in the early, hard working, loney, homesick days.

Josh Cryer · 2004-06-22 00:49:57

No way, being able to take in Mars' beauty alone would be one of the biggest highs you could ever attain.

JimM · 2004-06-22 02:00:12

A banking haven perhaps has potential, were one inclined toward doing business with criminals. If you were to take this route, you'd have to be totally discrete and never yield records, or all credibility would be lost and the operation would collapse.

Totally discrete banking is not, as such, an indication of willingness to do business with criminals. Switzerland is famous for its totally discrete banking. True, some of its customers may be criminals but probably the vast majority are not--they just want to organise their financial affairs so as to minimumize their exposure to taxation, a highly worthy ambition I'd say. After all if you make it easier than necessary for politicians to tax you, you just encourage them. I'd never like to have it thought I was encouraging politicians.

Anyway, how can the Swiss know which clients are criminals and which are not? Firstly, there is no requirement to hold an account in your real name.

In a properly run discrete modern banking system, the bank itself wil not know even the assumed identities of its clients. Done properly over the net with full-power modern encription, each account would carry a unique code that alone enables access to funds held in it.

So Osama bin Laden stashes 50 million dollars in your bank after the US government and its allies try to seize his assets, used to fund terrorist activities. What do you do?

What do you do about internet use in uncrackable code right now? What do you do about untraceable funds held in nominee accounts right now?

How far do you go in abolishing privacy in your hunt for terrorists? Go much farther than we have already and the terrorists will have won.

If the Bank of Mars became a favored place to stash your illgotten gains… (sorry, bank discretely) the value of the Mars Bar (symbol, MB) will steadily appreciate against the dollar, euro, yen, etc., which will lead to a regular boost in the value of accounts held in MBs and a regular fall, so far as the Bank of Mars is concerned, in the cost of holding these foreign currency accounts, in terms of MBs. -- a win-win situation for the Bank of Mars.

drewtreptow · 2004-06-22 02:08:55

Sorry if i broke any forum rules by condoning legal activities(oops). My original pst was sort of short sighted but i did it because i was inspired by the case against mars topic.

I started this topic for 3 reasons:

1. i think the key to making mars a succesful planet is overcoming a critical time in its early history when large powerful governments start looking at their bottom lines and see that all the billions and billions of dollars they are spending and say "why are we spending all this money on this planet". Then funding gets cut and there needs to be an early way of making mars profitable. If mining, entertainment, drugs, whatever make mars come out ahead then it can continue to grow and prosper. I just thought ilegal activity could make that transition go a little easier.

2. Another thought i wanted to get into is whose moral code and laws do we follow. What do we decide is right and wrong? On Mars we are going to have our own moral code.

3. I think a martian mafia is a really cool idea. One critism of this board and all mars fanatics is that they tend to utopia-ize mars and make it seem as if the realities of human nature wont exist on mars. The evils of society arent going anywhere and are going to come with us to mars. I think that may be the reason some people came down hard on my post.

Anyways i think this thread may be a lost cause and i think i will start a new post in the civ and culture forum if this thread is all burnt out.

drew

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-22 05:34:43

Anyway, how can the Swiss know which clients are criminals and which are not? Firstly, there is no requirement to hold an account in your real name.

The Swiss certainly did not set out to court a criminal client base, but they have instituted policies that are attractive to certain people, criminals among them. Many legitimate clients have Swiss accounts for legitimate reasons. But the policies also attract drug dealers, terrorists, dictators and other unsavory characters. I'm not saying we should shut down the Swiss banking industry, but by instituting the policies they have they are knowingly aiding in criminal activity by providing a safe haven for the profits of that activity. A similar banking scheme on Mars would be no different, it may have practical value but we have to understand the implications.

What do you do about internet use in uncrackable code right now? What do you do about untraceable funds held in nominee accounts right now?

The difference is that if terrorists are sending encrypted data or have untraceable accounts with someone else I can't do anything about it. But if I am the custodian of one of those accounts, and even suspect whose it is, I have a choice to make. Divulging that information destroys trust in the bank, the foundation of its business. Holding that information would make me, or you, or the Swiss or whomever runs the bank, an accessory to whatever acts those funds are used to finance. If you know you are holding money for murderers and do nothing, you're allowing it continue. If you set up elaborate security so that even you don't know who has money in your bank, you just fooling yourself. You can't have dealings with criminals and not drift into criminality yourself. Trust me on this.

One critism of this board and all mars fanatics is that they tend to utopia-ize mars and make it seem as if the realities of human nature wont exist on mars.

On this point I agree. There's a great deal of Utopianism in some of these discussions, but this one revolves around intentional dystopia. Reality is somewhere in the middle, where things blur and everything is grey.

smurf975 · 2004-06-22 06:18:02

Isn't the real utopia, like in the first Matrix movie, an imperfect world?

JimM · 2004-06-22 07:22:17

The Swiss certainly did not set out to court a criminal client base, but they have instituted policies that are attractive to certain people, criminals among them. ... A similar banking scheme on Mars would be no different, it may have practical value but we have to understand the implications.

Doubtless. But the huge advantage of a sort of Swiss-style banking policy on Mars is that all the trillions and trillions of MBs piling up in the Bank of Mars could be loaned out (that's what banks do, after all) to fund development projects on Mars itself. It would be a way of finding the money needed for this without having to beg it from governments on earth.

Mars might be able to become financially self-sufficient very rapidly indeed, and with financial self-sufficiency, all the other kinds will either follow shortly or not matter much.

And I don't see or hear anybody going around claiming Switzerland, land of Toblerone chocolate and cuckoo clocks, is a rogue state.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-22 07:32:44

Doubtless. But the huge advantage of a sort of Swiss-style banking policy on Mars is that all the trillions and trillions of MBs piling up in the Bank of Mars could be loaned out (that's what banks do, after all) to fund development projects on Mars itself. It would be a way of finding the money needed for this without having to beg it from governments on earth.

I'm not questioning the practical value of the proposal, merely the ethical concerns. Do we want to set the precedent, as we step into the future of mankind as a spacefaring species, that it's alright to provide services to criminals and terrorists if it helps development?

Palomar · 2004-06-22 07:34:58

Maybe some of those scienctists from the Acheron Labs will cook up some synthetic drugs such as XTC, crack or whatever. Which could be in high demand in the early, hard working, loney, homesick days.

*You're kidding, right? If not --

:down:

No ethical scientist would cook up crack (a highly addictive and self-destructive agent which is also highly dangerous to make in the first place) for human consumption. Scum would; but not a scientist.

Anyone living and working on Mars in "need" of such a drug as crack doesn't belong there in the first place, IMO. Liquor won't be enough? More's the pity.

Chemical dependence/neediness = weakness.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2004-06-22 07:41:22

Do we want to set the precedent, as we step into the future of mankind as a spacefaring species, that it's alright to provide services to criminals and terrorists if it helps development?

*No.

Not as far as I'm concerned.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-22 08:05:29

Back to the drug issue, why does anyone assume that Martian colonists are going to be hopelessly depressed unstable crazies that to be medicated?

Sober people have done much more grueling things than living on Mars.

Someone is going to make moonshine. Someone is eventually going to plant some marijuana. People can use these in moderation with no ill effects. Crack? No.

Here's what I'd use as a guideline. From "The Greater Britain" which I'll tell you up front was a publication written by Oswald Mosley, a fascist. You find wisdom in the damndest places...

"In his public capacity a man must behave as befits a citizen and a member of the State; his actions must conform to the interests of the State, which protects and governs him and guarantees his personal freedom. In private he may behave as he likes. Provided he does not interfere with the freedom and enjoyment of others, his conduct is a matter between himself and his own conscience.
But there is one condition. The State has no room for the drone and the decadent, who use their leisure to destroy their capacity for public usefulness."

So sit in your hab, drink your moonshine and smoke your reefer as long as you show up for your shift awake, alert and sober.

With crack or other such drugs, moderation is impossible. They destroy the capacity for public usefulness as sure as anything. We don't need Martian junkies, we're gonna have enough trouble with the drunks.

smurf975 · 2004-06-22 08:10:26

Who is saying its their objective to help criminals? Its just like in Swiss, Bahamas and I'm sure other states. A don't ask, don't tell policy. And most money will be money from companies such as Enron, tax evadors, corrupt officials and perhaps Russian Oligarchs. Terrorists are not that rich to make a big difference to the banking system.

If Martians aren't allowed to do it then the Swiss shouldn't be also.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-22 08:27:34

Who is saying its their objective to help criminals?

No one. But that's a result, among others.

If Martians aren't allowed to do it then the Swiss shouldn't be also.

If the Martians want to do it, fine by me. Most of the money will from rich businessmen and corporations trying to save some money and dodge some taxes.

But a small percentage won't be. And the Bank of Mars will know that a small percentage of its clients are using their bank to hide criminal profits or fund terrorist acts.

It's a judgment call, one that entails an ethical decision that sets the tone for what follows.

I'm not entirely opposed to the 'discrete banking' idea, but it does need some narrowly and clearly defined restrictions.

clark · 2004-06-22 08:42:07

How fine this line you make up as you go! :laugh:

Back to the drug issue, why does anyone assume that Martian colonists are going to be hopelessly depressed unstable crazies that to be medicated?

Have you talked to the people who want to be Martian colonists?

Now, to the line...

Someone is going to make moonshine. Someone is eventually going to plant some marijuana. People can use these in moderation with no ill effects. Crack? No.

I can't say disagree with you, but let's look at what you've done: You've allowed mind altering psychotropics into what amounts to a nuclear submarine. You've allowed powerful alcohol into an enclosed space, where people may need to be ready to "abandon ship" at any time. But somehow moonshine (which can cause you to go blind btw) and pot (which slows your reaction speed and fuddles the brain) are okay, but hey, crack, em that's bad, em okay.

We've also opened the door a bit, on Mars, for us to appraise all the other chemcial fun out there. Special K? Ecstacy? Steroids? GHB? Coke? PCP? Qualiudis? Shrooms? LSD? The list goes frighteningly on.

So where do you draw the line? It certainly isn't at saftey becuase if that was the case, you wouldn't even consider moonshine or pot, it creates a danger to the individual and to any habitat (there is always the chance for an emergency on Mars).

"In his public capacity a man must behave as befits a citizen and a member of the State; his actions must conform to the interests of the State, which protects and governs him and guarantees his personal freedom. In private he may behave as he likes. Provided he does not interfere with the freedom and enjoyment of others, his conduct is a matter between himself and his own conscience.
But there is one condition. The State has no room for the drone and the decadent, who use their leisure to destroy their capacity for public usefulness."

You know he is talking about being allowed to wear womens underwear in the privacy of his own home, don't you?

So sit in your hab, drink your moonshine and smoke your reefer as long as you show up for your shift awake, alert and sober.

And when they don't? You want to start spacing the junkies too?

With crack or other such drugs, moderation is impossible. They destroy the capacity for public usefulness as sure as anything.

Bleh. I agree, but still I find it surprising that several studies have found that most people are functional addicts. In other words, they meet the definition of an addict, but they are still "useful to the public".

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-22 08:56:53

I can't say disagree with you, but let's look at what you've done: You've allowed mind altering psychotropics into what amounts to a nuclear submarine. You've allowed powerful alcohol into an enclosed space, where people may need to be ready to "abandon ship" at any time. But somehow moonshine (which can cause you to go blind btw) and pot (which slows your reaction speed and fuddles the brain) are okay, but hey, crack, em that's bad, em okay.

What I've done is this: Acknowledge basic human nature and take historical comparisons into account. Distilling alcohol is going to happen, no regulation is going to stop it. The planting of marijuana will probably take longer, but eventually someone is going to do it. Just one more plant in the greenhouse. Or private quarters.

Ideally everyone would be sober and clear headed at all times, but that's unrealistic.

So where do you draw the line? It certainly isn't at saftey becuase if that was the case, you wouldn't even consider moonshine or pot, it creates a danger to the individual and to any habitat (there is always the chance for an emergency on Mars).

Again, to clarify. I'm not saying "By decree ye may partake of these specified substances," but rather acknowledging that the decree "Under no circumstances may ye partake of these substances" can never be universally enforced. You have to have priorities.

And when they don't? You want to start spacing the junkies too?

Thought you might need some company out there.

Bleh. I agree, but still I find it surprising that several studies have found that most people are functional addicts. In other words, they meet the definition of an addict, but they are still "useful to the public".

Yes, by increasingly modifying definitions we can fit in anything we want. They have drugs to treat made up diseases now! There's a world of difference between the "addict" that gets grumpy if they miss the morning coffee and a strung out heroin junkie.

Hell, we're all addicted to Oxygen if you really want to broaden the base.

clark · 2004-06-22 09:10:10

Hell, we're all addicted to Oxygen if you really want to broaden the base.

So throwing me out the airlock is just some form of tough-love detox. You are the compassionate in conservative. :laugh:

Distilling alcohol is going to happen, no regulation is going to stop it.

Ve ave vays... spike the water supply with drugs that induce vomiting and death if mixed with alcohol. Have continous random, or total drug checks. Monitor the hell out of everything.

Of course the more enterprising of us might take to rocket fuel, but I digress. I'm not really disagreeing here, I'm just pointing out that if you allow one, you end up having to accomadate (in some fashion) the rest. Who are you to say that I can't hold my crack? Which is effectively what you are saying (even if it may be true), yet you also hold that you and others can hold your drink (which isn't always true).

I think you either open the door, or you keep it closed. How exactly do you justify both, while holding onto this idea that we should be left to our own devices since we will figure out a way anyway?

Thought you might need some company out there.

Junkies, they work cheap. [I am so un-PC today]

There's a world of difference between the "addict" that gets grumpy if they miss the morning coffee and a strung out heroin junkie.

Hmmm, I've known some people who are real bears without their morning brew. What about steroids? Hey, you can be pretty functional, right? Coke? Frued was expounding on the mind and victorian society, so it must be okay.

I don't have the answers so I'm going to make you find them.

Cobra Commander · 2004-06-22 09:25:54

I don't have the answers so I'm going to make you find them.

I'll copyright them and charge royalties.

Ve ave vays... spike the water supply with drugs that induce vomiting and death if mixed with alcohol. Have continous random, or total drug checks. Monitor the hell out of everything.

Condense your own water. Distill the 'impurities' out of the tap. Spiking the water is hardly worth the effort.

I think you either open the door, or you keep it closed. How exactly do you justify both, while holding onto this idea that we should be left to our own devices since we will figure out a way anyway?

If someone can engage in a behavior with no apparent ill effects it doesn't bother me. If they are dangerous or a burden on society as a result, there is a problem. Humans need a little indulgence from time to time. In moderation it really isn't harmful.

The line is drawn between that which can be taken in moderation without serious effects, such as alcohol, and that which cannot, such as crack.

clark · 2004-06-22 09:51:16

I'll copyright them and charge royalties.

I stand corrected! You are the conservative in compassionate conservative.

A toast to Cobraism. Moderation in all things

Josh Cryer · 2004-06-22 11:22:12

So, what we want to do is essentially make Mars like that drug addicted society in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Well, I'll have to give it to ya, that would probably work. Keep one part of society totally addicted, and keep another part of society not addicted and able to create the cure. The episode was called "Symbiosis."

But it would be rather stupid, and it would show the extents that some would go to make Mars profitable when the tech to survive there should be freely available.

BTW, "hardcore drugs" can in fact be taken without having ill effects upon society, but it takes people who are strong willed enough to moderate themselves and their urges. In other words, it takes a person who doesn't need drugs to be able to use them safely.

MarsDog · 2004-06-22 13:40:44

Overbearing lawmakers will make a lot of lawbreakers.
The good has to come first, producing goods and resources;
Ready to be exploited.

John Creighton · 2004-06-22 13:47:50

BTW, "hardcore drugs" can in fact be taken without having ill effects upon society, but it takes people who are strong willed enough to moderate themselves and their urges. In other words, it takes a person who doesn't need drugs to be able to use them safely.

Good, quote. I wonder what examples people might agree on. The rolling stones?

JimM · 2004-06-22 13:55:29

The difference is that if terrorists are sending encrypted data or have untraceable accounts with someone else I can't do anything about it. But if I am the custodian of one of those accounts, and even suspect whose it is, I have a choice to make. Divulging that information destroys trust in the bank, the foundation of its business. Holding that information would make me, or you, or the Swiss or whomever runs the bank, an accessory to whatever acts those funds are used to finance. If you know you are holding money for murderers and do nothing, you're allowing it continue. If you set up elaborate security so that even you don't know who has money in your bank, you just fooling yourself. You can't have dealings with criminals and not drift into criminality yourself. Trust me on this.

Hold your moral horses here just a minute.

Let's say you own a bank which operates as described earlier. You have every reason to believe that 99% or more of your account-holders--perhaps even 100%-- are legitimate, upright citizens who just don't want everyone to know how rich they are--which is a perfectly proper and reasonable position to hold.

It's put to you that perhaps 1% of your clients are criminals who are 'hiding' their stolen money in one of your secret accounts, but you have no idea which 1% that might be. Indeed you don't know for sure that any of your customers are criminals. You didn't seek such people as clients, but because of the way the bank works, you don't know if such people have banked with you or not. (Incidentally, most conventional terrestrial banks would have some difficulty establishing this information for themselves also.)

Indeed you have no way of ever knowing if you have such account holders, far less any way of telling which particular accounts they hold.

What it the moral thing to do in this situation?

I say the answer is "nothing." This is because your service is both legal and moral, and in any case there is nothing effectivee you can do.

To stop the service (or not start it in the first place) because it might attract clients who are criminals would be analogous to stopping (or not starting) an airline service because some of your passenegers might be criminals escaping justice--which would be a preposterous reason to stop.

Unlike all this talk of drug businesses, clearly both legally and morally reprehensible, and requiring the transportation of physical objects between planets which is both expensive and risky, a Bank of Mars is NOT illegal and NOT immoral--even if some immoral or criminal people might make use of its facilities.

clark · 2004-06-22 14:00:52

Indeed you have no way of ever knowing if you have such account holders, far less any way of telling which particular accounts they hold.
What it the moral thing to do in this situation?

Oh, I don't know, perhaps instuting a policy that allows you to identify the accounts with the individual might be a way to help.

Unless of course you and your bank see no reason to help in preventing the exploitation of women or children by would be smut peddlers and slave-traders.

Your analogy is lame because it is effectively "I'm going to close my eyes so I'm not responsible." Yeah, the bank isn't immoral, it completely lacks any morality what so ever.

The case would be different if the bank had no means to identify people, but that isn't the situation. They choose to turn a blind eye, and thus retain this b*llsh*t exscuse to keep making money.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2004-06-21 14:05:14

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#27 2004-06-21 14:18:32

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#28 2004-06-21 14:33:13

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#29 2004-06-22 00:49:57

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#30 2004-06-22 02:00:12

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#31 2004-06-22 02:08:55

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#32 2004-06-22 05:34:43

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#33 2004-06-22 06:18:02

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#34 2004-06-22 07:22:17

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#35 2004-06-22 07:32:44

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#36 2004-06-22 07:34:58

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#37 2004-06-22 07:41:22

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#38 2004-06-22 08:05:29

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#39 2004-06-22 08:10:26

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#40 2004-06-22 08:27:34

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#41 2004-06-22 08:42:07

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#42 2004-06-22 08:56:53

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#43 2004-06-22 09:10:10

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#44 2004-06-22 09:25:54

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#45 2004-06-22 09:51:16

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#46 2004-06-22 11:22:12

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#47 2004-06-22 13:40:44

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#48 2004-06-22 13:47:50

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#49 2004-06-22 13:55:29

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

#50 2004-06-22 14:00:52

Re: Using illegal goods to make mars profitable - The Martian Mafia???

Board footer