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#101 2003-10-07 12:01:53

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

You'd quite quickly 'recognize' someones claim the second a gun is pointed in your face, I assure you. It's not who, it's what.


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#102 2003-10-07 12:09:06

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,362

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

Okay, let's dispell this gun-turrent-on-a-rock-to-enforce-property-rights-in-space. Very pretty idea that gives rise to gun slinging wild west days, but it just ain't so.

In order to place your would begun-turrent in space, you would neccessarily have to violate international treaties, recognized by every major nation, that stricly forbid such weapons in space. This isn't an issue of private versus public or what not, it's just not in any vested powers interest to have a bunch of fools with gun turrents in space.

Second, if by some chance a radical change is made to the international treaties, no one has to threaten your asteroid to shut you down. Any business, or priavte interest, claiming territory in space will neccessarily find that they need access to terrestrial markets, which can be denied to would be asteroid/space entrapaneurs. Better yet, we can just send someone to your house, on Earth, and arrest you, all without 'attacking' your gun turrented space rock.
Barring that, some other nation or group can simply shoot down any rocket you attempt to launch, or do something nasty to your rock to send it off into space (therby denying you or anyone access to it).

If someone in Portugal claimed a rock in space, and Portugal recognized the claim, all the other nations could impose economic sanctions on Portugal. You would then see the government of Portugal relinquishing it's grant for simple economic reasons.

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#103 2003-10-07 12:19:19

Bill White
Member
Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

Once a group of people agree to mutually recognize each other's property rights those people have just created a government. At least according to Rousseau. If this is true, then the question becomes not whether to have government but rather what kind of government to have.

And I agree with clark 100% - - neither Bechtel nor Bill Gates will invest hundreds of billions of dollars in space unless/until they feel sufficiently comfortable that a Terran court (backed by a Terran police force) will enforce and defend their investment.

For humanity to "enter space" we need cooperation from Wall Street =AND= K Street (meaning the US Congress). Sorry if I repeat myself. :;):

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#104 2003-10-07 12:21:58

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

clark, I totally see your point, but I don't think 'nations' would be making these sorts of claims. I think that if we had a nice little launch infrastructure, people themselves would be making these claims. I know I wouldn't mind having a claim on Ceres, for example.

You actually negelected to use an example from the "wild west days," mind you. In the wild west days, 'treaties' were generally ignored. smile

I use the gun as an example, though. It could be anything. From a rocket which sets the asteroid into deep spin (making it impractical to land stuff on it to mine), to very powerful electromagnetic pulses every now and again. It doesn't have to be a gun, it just has to show that you can enforce your claim.

Of course, someone could come arrest you, but there's no reason people couldn't remain anonymous. If we had a cheap space launch capablity, it would be impossible to track 'packages.' All you could do is track launches and make assumptions about the ones that don't wind up where they're supposed to be. And once we had moon colonization (or Mars, for that matter) going, you couldn't even track launches (you could build and launch stuff very quietly).


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#105 2003-10-07 12:29:18

Bill White
Member
Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

If we had a cheap space launch capablity, it would be impossible to track 'packages.'

What might the Pentagon and Homeland Security say about this? A situation where the government can't track possible terrorist attacks? By ICBM?

When rogue governments (North Korea & Iran) seek the ability to enter LEO or even build accurate sub orbital rockets it is great cause for military confrontation. Why do you think the government will ever allow Earth-LEO access to be sold at Wal-Mart? (Lock-Mart maybe but not Wal-Mart!)

Our entering space will be to expand and extend the globalized world not to escape from it. We ARE the Borg.

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#106 2003-10-07 12:57:52

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

No, I don't think the government would want cheap access to space. If it did, we'd already be colonizing Mars. Some of us posting here could've been born on the moon.

Cheap access is going to happen eventually. And even though the government will attempt to control access to space (for various reasons, of course, none black and white), there will still have to be holes in the system somewhere.

I think that this would create a perfect opportunity for smugglers, or trafficers, to send untrackable packages into space for people. I don't think the government could stop them.

Entering space may indeed be an expansion of the globalized world; but the globalized world relies on control, and it's hard to control resources in space, as testified by the very arguments we continue (and will continue) to have about claims and enforcement!

Those gun turrets I mentioned could quite simply be taken out by suicide bots; they blow asteroids into smaller bits of which the largests few pieces are mined. Large nanotube nets could be used to round up the largest pieces which have broken apart. A claim has to be able to defend itself against an encroaching entity. If people were living on said asteroid, it would be more difficult to blow it up, simply because of the overall moral implications. (Not to mention, people tend to fight back and band together when something bad happens to them, so you'd just start an unnecessary civil war.)


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#107 2003-10-07 12:59:47

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,362

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

Of course, someone could come arrest you, but there's no reason people couldn't remain anonymous. If we had a cheap space launch capablity, it would be impossible to track 'packages.'

I doubt this. We track everything that flies in the Nothern Hemisphere (NORAD). We track every bit of 'stuff' in space too, down to the size of paint flecks.

If we're dealing with sending and receiving stuff from some orbiting asteroid, I would imagine that there are only so many optimum launch windows, trajectories, etc which make predicting destination rather easy.

As for finding the 'anonymous', that is a matter of financial tracking, which is getting easier to do, not harder.

Let's say we do have cheap access, then people start making claims- well now we have a serious problem becuase who is authorizing the claims? Who will recognize the claims? As an american, I wouldn't neccessarily have the backing of the US government to do this. So if I have umpteen billions and a vision, why take the risk of losing it all? That is exactly what might happen though becuase there is no mechanism to claim property in space. It's a big F-ing no mans land.

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#108 2003-10-07 19:48:09

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

It's one thing to track something in orbit around the Earth, capable of being detected via RADAR or LADAR or other interesting means. It's another thing to track something orbiting around the sun.

A one degree difference 500 miles away is trackable. A hundredth of a degree difference 500 thousand miles, however, is not (you'd be lucky to catch a photon of a small probe that far away, much less be able to send out a scan able to detect something that tiny.)

The only way we 'track' stuff in space is because we put that stuff on a trajectory and we trust that it's where we think it is. Trajectories can certainly be fixed, but there are so many of viable ones that it's unlikely that one could track each and every possible one. The closest you're going to come is knowing when an asteroid gained mass or momentum, and then you might be able to extropolate from then when the launch occured (making a lot of assumptions about possible trajectories), but to think that that would help you find your 'culprits.' I dunno. There's a certain threshold where information is useless.

The fact that we've irrevociably lost so many probes proves that things can and will be lost.

Anyway, the best way, in my very humble opinion, to 'recognize' a claim is to only 'recognize' claims which people themselves are exploiting.


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#109 2003-10-08 06:03:58

Byron
Member
From: Florida, USA
Registered: 2002-05-16
Posts: 844

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

After reading through this thread about claims of property in space, here's my ideas of how this might work...

First of all, I think some sort of internationaly-recognized space agency needs to be developed that would serve as a clearinghouse for space claims and "traffic control" for space travel and transport...I would call this the International Space Agency, or the ISA for short.  As for the actual claims themselves, a set of rules should be developed that would make all parties as content as possible, which in my opinion would be as follows:  If a firm, organization or some other group wanted to claim, let's say a 10-kilometer asteroid out in the Belt for mining purposes, they would initialize the claim by sending a survey mission to that asteroid, determine what it will be used for (Declaration of Intent) and a projected time table for occupation/settlement/mining, etc.  This Declaration of Intent would have to be approved by the ISA to make certain that this "real estate" does not encroach on other, previously recognized claims, will not pose a hostile threat to others, and so forth.  Once this claim is approved, then the claimed property will be off-limits to everyone else, provided that the claiments follow through with their intent to physically occupy the property.  (There should also be a max time limit between making the original claim and physical occupation, something like 20 years or even less perhaps?)

Once that asteroid is physically occupied, the new owners would be responsible for their own "defense", but I seriously doubt you would need to guard your space property with weapons and the like, as only the certified owners would have the blessing of the ISA to send ore back to Earth, promote settlement, etc.  As for claiming real estate on a planetary body such as Mars, there should be a universally recognized limit to the maximum area of land that can be claimed and occupied by any one group or organization - this way, Corporations X,Y and Z can't just come in and claim all of Mars for their own use.  (Physical occupation of that much land would be impossible anyhow.)  But I think there should be provisions for different types of claims, such as one-kilometer plot of land for individual homesteaders, and larger chunks of land for mining companies...provided that this land is actually occupied by the claiment within the prescribed time limit, otherwise it would revert back to the public domain...the same thing would apply to land that is occupied and later abandoned.

On last thing I would like to add...  A lot of you have this impression that the United States will project its hegemony out into space, as if the age of Pax Americana will last for centuries and centuries into the future.  It is my firm belief that America will cease to be a superpower by the end of this century (probably by mid-century), and that international organizations such as the UN and the yet-to-be created ISA will gain a much greater prominance on the world stage.  The US will likely still be a major player well into the future...it's just that I think that the age of "Empire America" will come to an inevitable end, just like the British Empire did in the last century (and all the other empires and superpowers before that.) 

There is also a very good chance that one or more 3rd-world nations will rise to become major world players in the future, using space as a means of economic development, but even these "tigers of space" would have to delegate at least a portion of their authority to organizations such as the ISA, or the development of space simply will not occur.  One thing's for sure....the future sure as heck isn't going to turn out like most of us think it will...it never does...

B

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#110 2003-10-08 11:19:05

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

In anarchy, possession is the law.


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#111 2003-10-09 07:05:49

alokmohan
Member
From: india
Registered: 2003-09-14
Posts: 169

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

In anarchy, possession is the law.

In case of space certainly so.Whoever goes to mars first will posses mars just as some brave english possesed america.

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#112 2003-10-09 08:28:58

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

In anarchy, possession is the law.

In case of space certainly so.Whoever goes to mars first will posses mars just as some brave english possesed america.

*No they won't. 

The United Nations has already made provisions against "possession" of extraterrestrial bodies by anyone (nation), or so I am quite certain.  Someone correct me if wrong, but I'm sure I've read about this policy at these message boards before.

Alokmohan, I'm very surprised to read your statements regarding this, particularly given India's history with colonial England.

No one should "own" Mars -- no Earthlings, at any rate.  And no, I'm not interested in opening up a can of worms relative to "ownership of Mars" in the future, ON Mars.

--Cindy


We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#113 2003-10-10 15:28:44

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: The Case Against Space Colonization - Chime in

alokmohan, one person can't possess all of Mars, though. Mars has a lot of room. We'd work it out without being too unfair to one another (otherwise we'd have civil wars, and so on).


Cindy, you're right, sort of. Many free marketers (frontieerists, etc) effectively make the point that the treaties don't deny people from possessing or owning property anywhere in space. The treaties specifically talk about governments owning bits of space.

I personally don't see a problem with these treaties, but again, any treaty (or law or what have you) needs to be enforced, and I think we've been over that already. smile


Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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