Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

REB · 2004-10-27 13:04:21

Cindy, in reguards to Titan as a planet. Here are the stats of the top 30 worlds of our Solar System, ranked by size.

As you can see, Titan and Mars are close in size.

Size (km) Surface gravity (g)
Sun 1,391,400 27.9000
Jupiter 142,800 2.6431
Saturn 120,540 1.1013
Uranus 51,118 0.8799
Neptune 49,528 1.1408
Earth 12,756 1.0000
Venus 12,104 0.9125
Mars 6,787 0.3821
Ganymede (Jupiter) 5,262 0.1542
Titan (Saturn) 5,150 0.1409
Mercury 4,878 0.3924
Callisto (Jupiter) 4,800 0.1206
Io (Jupiter) 3,630 0.1802
Moon (Earth) 3,467 0.1611
Europa (Jupiter) 3,130 0.1435
Triton (Neptune) 2,700 0.0607
Pluto 2,300 0.0534
Titania (Uranus) 1,580 0.0200
Rhea (Saturn) 1,530 0.0281
Oberon (Uranus) 1,520 0.0106
Iapetus (Saturn) 1,440 0.0225
Charon (Pluto) 1,190 0.0210
Umbriel (Uranus) 1,170 0.0083
Ariel (Uranus) 1,160 0.0127
Dione (Saturn) 1,120 0.0222
Tethys (Saturn) 1,050 0.0153
Ceres 1 (Asteroid) 914 0.0441
Pallas 2 (Asteroid) 522 0.0198
Vesta 4 (Asteroid) 500 0.0201
Enceladus (Saturn) 500 0.0079
Miranda (Uranus) 470 0.0042

atomoid · 2004-10-27 13:33:31

Thanks Reb for the statistics, its interesting to see an at-a-glance chart like that, i had forgotten that Ganymede was the solar system's largest moon, usurping Titan's namesake.

I sure hope Huygens has a good descent imager and will take lots of pictures (the MERs took only 3) so we can get a good sense of the differences between the dark/light areas on the way down.

REB · 2004-10-27 13:51:46

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA06138.jpg]New pictures.

Check out the top far right image. Do I see river channels formed by some flowing liquid, or is my imagination going wild?

Palomar · 2004-10-27 14:13:44

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassi … alse-color image...

*Love the "detached haze." :up: I think of it as a membrane.

The main C-H web site must be overloaded with hits; I keep getting server errors. Had to go a different route. I hope there IS that much interest in this mission!

--Cindy

No life on Mars · 2004-10-27 18:45:36

I can't se any rivers but I can se craters on this black area.
Titans]http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1268&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0]Titan's Big Surprise

Palomar · 2004-10-27 19:59:38

Titans]http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1268&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0]Titan's Big Surprise

*Thanks for posting this! I've been offline for nearly 4 hours; didn't see this article at the time of logging off earlier today.

There's a huge cloud formation over the moon's south pole, spanning 1000 kilometers at its widest. That's no surprise; scientists expected it to be there. But they also expected it to be made of methane. And it isn't.
There's lots of methane in Titan's atmosphere. It was detected many years ago by spacecraft that flew past the ringed planet. So when recent images from the Keck Observatory in Hawaii showed clouds at Titan's south pole, scientists assumed they were methane clouds. According to their model, Titan is so cold that methane can form liquid pools on its surface. When this liquid is heated by the sun, it evaporates, forming methane clouds. Water clouds on Earth work the same way. The sun heats the ocean, water evaporates and clouds form in the atmosphere. Because Titan's south pole is currently pointed toward the sun, it is receiving the greatest amount of heat right now. So a massive cloud form over the south pole fits the model perfectly - if the cloud is made of methane.
But, according to data gathered by Cassini, the particles that make up the cloud are too big to be methane. "I don't believe it," says Chris McKay, a planetary scientist with the NASA Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, California. "What else can they be? It would be like flying over Earth and saying the clouds are not water. --->*If those clouds are really not methane, then a lot of the things we think about Titan are wrong.*<--- A lot of things we think about those clouds are wrong - the whole explanation of why they're there."

??? Will be watching for any possible forthcoming explanations for sure.

They're speculating about ethane (then saying it doesn't make sense)...perhaps "organic goo"?

One plausible scenario is that the cloud particles could start out as methane, produced as expected on the ground and carried aloft. Once airborne, however, they become coated with some other substance, perhaps ethane. Further study of the spectral data collected by Cassini, together with lab-based experiments should enable scientists to unravel the mystery, but it will take some time for them to do so.

*I'll be waaaaaaiting.

--Cindy

atomoid · 2004-10-27 21:11:51

...But, according to data gathered by Cassini, the particles that make up the cloud are too big to be methane. "I don't believe it," says Chris McKay, a planetary scientist with the NASA Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, California. "What else can they be? It would be like flying over Earth and saying the clouds are not water. --->*If those clouds are really not methane, then a lot of the things we think about Titan are wrong.*<---

This is just great! Titan is already contradicting accepted paradigms and ripping up the standard models, and we haven't even barely scratched the surface! looks like were in for another mind blowing year of space exploration. Good going Cassini, keep the data streaming in!

moby · 2004-10-28 03:56:08

This is as much fun as watching the rover info come streaming in. I bet most of the scientific community is saying "holy toledo" and words to that effect

Rxke · 2004-10-28 05:07:26

I Bet some of them are saying: 'now that's funny...' (cfr. Shaun's signature)

Ain't interplanetary exploration great? No matter with what ideas, theories you come up with, there are always those puzzling surprizes.

Another proof that science is not boring!

Palomar · 2004-10-28 06:30:47

*Yeah, science is anything BUT boring. They can call me a geek, bookworm, nerd, whatever; I'm not the one who's missing out. :;):

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … e]Nitrogen isotope ratio

The graph shows that the amount of light nitrogen in the atmosphere of Titan is much less than that around other planets. Scientists believe this nitrogen was lost over large geologic times scales for reasons that remain unknown.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … image]Lots of hydrocarbons

The data is from Cassini's ion and neutral mass spectrometer, which detects charged and neutral particles in the atmosphere. The graph reveals a diversity of hydrocarbons in the high atmosphere above Titan, including benzene and diacetylene.

Rxke · 2004-10-28 07:53:29

Phew, nasty stuff...
Just add oxygen and a match!

Come to think of it: the running joke about telling GWB that there's oil on Mars to kickstart manned exploration...
This is almost as good as oil, acetyleen, the stuff they use in cutter-torches, yay! (EDIT: Whoops! they're talking about diacetylene, C4H2, not C2H2... Still a poweruful product though...)

Benzene, the powerful solvent, really veratile stuff, too bad it's so bad for your health *shudder*

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-10-28 07:56:16

The coverage of Saturn by Cassini has been great so far. Let's hope the Cassini-Huygens probe can touch down on Titan safely and get wonderful pics of this alien world

SpaceNut · 2004-10-28 08:08:22

I wanted to say thanks to REB as well for the planet size comparison chart.

Of those worlds that would be teraformed that match more closely than mars for that purpose I find this chart info very inlightening. Even uranus and neptune would be very inviting if they were not so cold.

Earth 12,756 1.0000

Saturn 120,540 1.1013
Uranus 51,118 0.8799
Neptune 49,528 1.1408
Venus 12,104 0.9125

As larger as saturn is but with only slightly heavy gravity but what about the atmospheric pressure is that also something that a teraformer would also be interested in.

I see that over the south pole that Nasa thinks that what shows up a white are clouds. I would be more inclined to think it is some form of snow or ice.

Can't wait for the probe to go though the atmosphere and make some measurements in December.

REB · 2004-10-28 08:35:25

I added each worlds mass to the chart. That makes it a little more interesting.

World..........Diameter (km).. Gravity (G). . Mass (kg)
Sun...............1,391,400........27.9.............1.99E+30
Jupiter..............142,800..........2.6431........1.90E+27
Saturn..............120,540..........1.1013........5.69E+26
Uranus...............51,118..........0.8799.........8.68E+25
Neptune…...........49,528..........1.1408.........1.02E+26
Earth.................12,756..........1.................5.98E+24
Venus................12,104..........0.9125..........4.88E+24
Mars...................6,787..........0.3821..........6.42E+23
Ganymede............5,262..........0.1542..........1.48E+23
Titan...................5,150..........0.1409..........1.35E+23
Mercury................4,878..........0.3924..........3.30E+23
Callisto.................4,800..........0.1206..........1.08E+23
Io........................3,630..........0.1802..........8.94E+22
Moon....................3,467..........0.1611..........7.35E+22
Europa..................3,130..........0.1435..........4.80E+22
Triton……….............2,700..........0.0607..........2.14E+22
Pluto.....................2,300..........0.0534..........1.29E+22
Titania..................1,580..........0.02..............3.50E+21
Rhea.....................1,530..........0.0281..........2.49E+21
Oberon..................1,520..........0.0106...........3.03E+21
Iapetus..................1,440..........0.0225..........1.88E+21
Charon...................1,190..........0.021...........1.90E+21
Umbriel……..............1,170..........0.0083..........1.27E+21
Ariel......................1,160..........0.0127..........1.27E+21
Dione.....................1,120..........0.0222..........1.05E+21
Tethys...................1,050..........0.0153..........7.55E+20
Ceres.......................914..........0.0441..........8.70E+20
Pallas.......................522..........0.0198..........3.18E+20
Vesta.......................500..........0.0201..........3.00E+20
Enceladus................500..........0.0079..........8.40E+19
Miranda...................470..........0.0042..........6.33E+19

Julius Caeser · 2004-10-28 12:45:12

Having followed the science briefing today at JPL,it looks like there are very dark areas on the surface of Titan which could be lakes,one in particular could be as big as Lake Tahoe!Interesting still,is that smooth surfaces made up of fluids may not be so clear to RADAR if the surface is roughened by waves.I hope that future flybies will definitely answer the question of fluids on Titan.

REB · 2004-10-28 13:27:21

They look like lakes to me (The dark area) I see shorelines and possible river channels. Like I said yesterday, the Mare on the moon, and dust on Mars has taught me that solids can mimic liquids.

A liquid cycle on Titan would make it a more interesting place. Here’s hoping.

Palomar · 2004-10-28 14:39:44

They look like lakes to me (The dark area) I see shorelines and possible river channels. Like I said yesterday, the Mare on the moon, and dust on Mars has taught me that solids can mimic liquids.

*Interesting that you use those two analogies, Robert, because I was going to use the Lunar one.

Unfortunately I didn't have the privilege of catching today's science briefing (the computer I use during the day won't allow access to internet live events). I have read a handful (and posted a few; previous thread) of articles speculating about large bodies of liquid on Titan, however.

But because of the Lunar analogy especially...I'm not getting my hopes up. Actually, I anticipate there won't be a lot of liquid on Titan; or at least not in the quantities which have been anticipated by some. I'd back it up with a bet as well, if I were a betting person.

Just a hunch (based on a lot of things), which could be completely wrong of course.

This gets my curiosity going bonkers (again):

Titan's topography will be a tougher nut to crack. Because of the global haze layer, Porco says, "we do not see shadows on the surface of Titan. And because we don't see shadow, we can't look at an image and immediately deduce what's up and what's down." There could be massive mountains and deep valleys there, or the surface could be completely flat. At this point, there's no way to tell.

Besides Huygens, Cassini will make more (45 actually) close passes of Titan.

During these future flybys, Cassini will collect both radar data - the first such data was captured during Tuesday's flyby - and stereo images. By integrating these two types of data, the Cassini science team will be able slowly to build up a picture of Titan's topography. That process, however, will take months - or even years.

*Hopefully just months, right?

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2004-10-28 20:14:01

Titan Rich in Carbons That Gave Life to Earth --NASA
http://www.reuters.com/newsArt....6650745

Saturn's mysterious moon Titan appears to have an environment rich in the carbon-based molecules that spawned life on Earth and winds that etched streaks into its icy surface, NASA scientists said on Thursday.
Most exciting to scientists who hoped to unlock the origins of life by studying chemical reactions in Titan's soil and atmosphere were apparent signs of large amounts of a sort of primordial slush on its frozen surface.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-10-28 22:49:31

there are some wonderful news stories on Titan out there, the Cassini mission has been great. Here's to hope that the Cassini-Huygens probe will land of Titan and get some amazing images of this world.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-29 01:49:28

I hope Huygens doesn't sink into all that "primordial slush".

djellison · 2004-10-29 03:15:16

I hope Huygens doesn't sink into all that "primordial slush".

Huygens is light enough to float.

Doug

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-29 03:29:53

Yes, Doug. I know Huygens was built to land successfully on solid or liquid surfaces but what about something akin to a fluffy snowdrift many metres deep?
Or am I misunderstanding the physical consistency of primordial sludge? ??? :;):

Palomar · 2004-10-29 06:10:49

*Primordial sludge? Oh great...and here I bought all these crackers to go with primordial *soup*. :-\ Now you tell me...

These especially caught my attention:

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … mage]Si-Si the Cat :laugh: Meeeeow!

*Radar image.

Brighter areas may correspond to rougher terrains and darker areas are thought to be smoother. This image highlights some of the darker terrain, which the Cassini team has nicknamed "Si-Si the Cat" after a team member's daughter, who pointed out its cat-like appearance. The interconnected dark spots are consistent with a very smooth or highly absorbing solid, or could conceivably be liquid.

-*-

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … Topography on Titan (Actually another hunch I have is that Titan overall will be relatively flat)

-*-

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … mage]Titan vs Mars To the left of the pic, where Huygens is expected to land.

At right is a picture from NASA's Viking 1 orbiter, showing streaks on Mars caused by winds blowing from right to left. The streaks at the Huygens landing site were formed by some kind of fluid, possibly wind, moving from the upper left to lower right (west to east).

--Cindy

::edit::

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … ]Diversity on Titan

::edit 2::

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/cassini/0 … e.html]Pic on the right: Titan and haze BACK-LIT :up: Cool!!

Shaun Barrett · 2004-10-29 06:50:03

Cindy:-

Primordial sludge? Oh great...and here I bought all these crackers to go with primordial *soup*.

Ha-ha! :laugh:

Well, maybe if we take little spoons and knives, we can scrape the sludge onto the crackers ...
Nahhh, you're right .. soup would've been so much nicer!

Palomar · 2004-10-30 06:21:04

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=14365]Nice, "upclose" pic of Dione :up:

*Taken October 27. Approximately 1,169,000 km distance.

--Cindy

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2004-10-27 13:04:21

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#27 2004-10-27 13:33:31

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#28 2004-10-27 13:51:46

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#29 2004-10-27 14:13:44

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#30 2004-10-27 18:45:36

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#31 2004-10-27 19:59:38

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#32 2004-10-27 21:11:51

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#33 2004-10-28 03:56:08

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#34 2004-10-28 05:07:26

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#35 2004-10-28 06:30:47

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#36 2004-10-28 07:53:29

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#37 2004-10-28 07:56:16

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#38 2004-10-28 08:08:22

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#39 2004-10-28 08:35:25

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#40 2004-10-28 12:45:12

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#41 2004-10-28 13:27:21

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#42 2004-10-28 14:39:44

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#43 2004-10-28 20:14:01

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#44 2004-10-28 22:49:31

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#45 2004-10-29 01:49:28

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#46 2004-10-29 03:15:16

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#47 2004-10-29 03:29:53

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#48 2004-10-29 06:10:49

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#49 2004-10-29 06:50:03

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

#50 2004-10-30 06:21:04

Re: Cassini-Huygens *2* - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Board footer

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...

Re: Cassini-Huygens 2 - ...more Saturn/Titan...