The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

Palomar · 2002-10-02 20:00:54

*I've been wondering how time zones would be set up on Mars. I reckon the first settlement will be the starting point, and Mars divided into time zones from there. Of course, the Marsian day is a bit longer than ours.

I suppose this is kind of "putting the cart ahead of the horse," but considering the squabbles which may result from determining an agreed-upon working system of time measurement, establishing time zones came to mind. ???

--Cindy

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-03 02:15:49

ecrasez_l_infame;

As long as the 24:60:60 division is used, time zones will probably be the least controversial part. Without anything in the way of established populations that don't want to be split into different zones, you can just split the planet into 24 equally large sections.

Byron · 2002-10-03 06:36:56

*I've been wondering how time zones would be set up on Mars. I reckon the first settlement will be the starting point, and Mars divided into time zones from there. Of course, the Marsian day is a bit longer than ours.

Cindy,

Actually, I think it would be more prudent to divide Mars up in just 12 sections, at 30 degree intervals. This would mean that time zones would be in two-hour increments, but I think that would be better than having 24 separate time zones, especially considering the much smaller area of Mars as compared to Earth.

Just an idea...

B

RobS · 2002-10-04 09:01:11

I apologize if, in skimming the previous postings, I might have missed something. It seems to me that a Mars calendar needs to keep two facts in mind:

1. Most work will be done inside, not outside. Agricultural societies need calendars tied closely to seasons, but Mars will not be an agricultural society in that sense.

2. Most "Martians" will be interacting intensively with work colleagues, families, and friends on Earth. Hence most people will be asking themselves "what's today on Earth? What day of the week is it? What time is it in my wife's house right now?"

Computers will help take care of a lot of that, and a Mars colony obviously will not ignore when the sun is up and adopt a terrestrial 24-hour day. But it is not clear Martians really will need to know the seasons intimately. They'll need to know when the dust storm season starts or when it will end. But their computer can tell them that.

So I suspect the easiest calendar to start with will simply be a modified terrestrial calendar. It just so happens that 36 sols is equal to 36.99 days; in other words, roughly every Gregorian month, the Martian calendar gets off by one day. So why not stick to a modified terrestrial calendar like this:

Month Earth days total Mars sols total
January 31 31 30 30
February 28 59 28 58
March 31 90 30 88
April 30 120 29 117
May 31 151 30 147
June 30 181 29 176
July 31 212 30 206
August 31 243 30 236
September 30 273 30 266
October 31 304 30 296
November 30 334 29 325
December 31 365 30 355
I don't know how well the table will come across, but basically you eliminate the 31st day in all months when there is one, and two other days as well. Then when it is November 1 on Mars, it is November 1 (more or less) on Earth as well. This makes it much easier to keep track of children's and spouse's birthdays, colleagues' vacations, etc. It also means Christians know when it is Christmas, Jews know when it is Yom Kippur, Americans know when it is July 4th, etc. And everyone can still celebrate their terrestrial birthdays on Mars, unless it falls on one of the days eliminated (in which case, celebrate it the day before or after).

For those who want Mars to have a distinctive calendar, it will have one, even if it still beats to a terrestrial rhythm. And there will still be Monsol, Tuesol, etc; I don't think that will be avoided. People are used to a seven day rhythm of the work week and there's no reason to change it. Indeed, it will make it easier for Christians, Jews, and Muslims to worship on Sunsol, Satursol, and Frisol respectively (which is likely to happen).

It seems to me that, idealism aside, a modified 12-month Gregorian calendar is by far the most practical solution, and will be what most people will do anyway even if another calendar is official.

-- RobS

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-06 01:31:21

RobS;

Interesting. Your system would have roughly two calender years for every solar year.

I'm not sure I want to get into the week business again, but it just might be where your system breaks down, because adjusting for the months won't stop the Earth-weeks and Mars-weeks from getting out of synch. The problem is, that strikes at the very thing you've based your calender on, the continued connection between people on Earth and people on Mars. Two obvious examples would be Easter and Yom Kippur. Easter happens on a Sunday every week, and IIRC Yom kippur is always on a Saturday. So the Martian holidays couldn't fall on the same day as the Earth ones. You could just accept that they'll be different on Mars, or you could hold them on the same day but on a different day of the week, but either way, it wouldn't be the same as on Earth.

It's too early to predict what the Martians will do. If anything, it would seem less confusing to just use both a Martian and the Gregorian calender than to invent a Martian quasi-Gregorian calender, because the quasi-Gregorian calender would always be a little off compared to the original.

But even as early as it is, I'll predict that Martians will drop clumsy words like "Tuesol". Tuesday!

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-06 05:29:24

I've never really given much thought to Martian time-keeping, so if anything I say has been done before, I apologise in advance. After the absolute demolition performed by AJ on Byron, I have to ask myself whether it's worth putting forward ANY ideas at all!

How about sticking to as much of the Terran calendar as possible?

The day the first humans land on Mars, we'll call that whatever day it is on Earth, at the Greenwich Meridian at that moment. That day will be the day it is at Terra Meridiani on Mars, the current zero longitude position.
I know this is a rather pointless precision, since the days thereafter will drift inexorably apart from the days on Earth because of the difference in the day length. But at least we'll have a precise starting point.
And all religions can then measure their holy days from that moment, in MARTIAN days. If various religious groups are unhappy that the sabbath on Mars will only occasionally coincide with the sabbath on Earth, then they can put forward alternatives at their leisure ... the problem won't arise for some years yet!

I was happy with KSR's 39 minute timeless period in the middle of the night. It gave me more time in bed for a good sleep! But, logically, I suppose it's better to just lengthen the duration of each second, minute, and hour to fit 24 hours into one Martian day. So that's what we'll do.

Here are the months and the number of days in each:-
JAN 56
FEB 56
MAR 56
APR 55
MAY 56
JUN 55 Total Days 668
JUL 56
AUG 56
SEP 55
OCT 56
NOV 55
DEC 56

Suppose you were born on Earth on June 6th. What day on Mars should you celebrate your birthday? June 6th is 6/30 or 0.2 of the way through June. 0.2 of the way through June on Mars becomes June 11th ... your new birthday! Simple.
This system even allows the retention of the old rhyme to determine how many days there are in each month:-
"55 days hath September,
April, June, and November.
The rest have 56 days clear.
We add one more in each Leap Year."

Now , I don't know how often we need a Leap Year. Perhaps someone with their finger on the pulse can tell me. But for these purposes, it's not crucial that we know that right now.

We've sorted out what day it is when we first land on Mars ... but what date is it?
In order to keep the new calendar in synch. with the seasons as much as possible, the way it is on Earth, I propose making the solstices fall at the same relative points in the same months as on Earth.
On Earth, the northern hemisphere winter solstice is on December 21st. The corresponding date on Mars (i.e. the northern hemisphere winter solstice) will be December 40th. Counting forward in Martian days from that point in Mars' orbit until the day of First Landing, gives you the date. It's simply mathematics.
Suppose the Martian date of First Landing is September 42nd. Let's call that September 42nd of the year MY Zero. Counting forward from the day of First Landing, January 1st becomes the first day of MY1.
This isn't compulsory, of course! You might prefer to call the year in which First Landing takes place, MY1. I just thought that since the first year will be less than a full year (except if we land by coincidence on January 1st local time! ), it might be better to name the first FULL year MY1.

This system is bound to have flaws in it. No doubt there are people out there just itching to tell me what they are! But remember ... it's unlikely that any system will completely satisfy everybody.
At least with this system, when somebody says it's May 1st, everyone will know it's spring in the northern hemisphere, just like on Earth (for what it's worth on Mars ... where you can hardly throw off your pressure suit and run around in a T-shirt! ). But eventually, with terraforming, it may become relevant to know these things again.

I hesitate to mention this, since certain parties may misinterpret it as veiled racism or some such, but the question of religious observance is quite likely to be a problem for at least the Muslims. I'm led to believe that Muslims measure things by the moon. This is obviously not going to work on Mars. And how do you pray towards Mecca when you're on the surface of a different planetary body?
I have no answers to these problems and leave their solution to people wiser than I am!!

Well? Waddyathink?!!

P.S. I'm in favour of keeping the names of the days the same
too. i.e. Monday, Tuesday, etc. I don't see any reason
to make life any harder than it has to be.

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-06 15:15:59

Shaun;

How about sticking to as much of the Terran calendar as possible?

I think it'll be more confusing than a totally new calender, so you may be going at it from the wrong direction.

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-06 17:03:03

Richard Mallon-Day has composed renderings (click here) of structures that might be built on Mars. One structure consists of a square courtyard covered by a glass dome and surrounded by two-story structures that might house several dozen families. The first Martian settlement might look like this.

I have proposed that a Provisional Government of Mars be authorized to issue Settlement Charters (click here) to groups of people who want to emigrate to Mars to establish settlements. The settlers would be authorized to construct a "Center Monument" and adopt ordinances for the governance of an area 10 kilometers in radius around the Center Monument.

If settlers went to Mars and erected a Center Monument in the form of an obelisk about 3 meters high, and if the Center Monument were located in the central square of a structure similar to the one rendered by Mr. Mallon-Day, then the settlers might base their time and calendar system on that monument. The monument could be used as a sundial. The position of its shadow during a day would indicate the time and the length of the shadow would indicate the season.

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-06 23:31:35

Thank you Scott. I'm sure the Martians will love not having a calender until they've built their vaults, and they'll love using a fricking sundial even more. Now all they need are copulation rituals centering on the sundial, and they'll be in nirvana.

Come on, mention Communidad de los Fruitcakes. You know you want to.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-06 23:34:34

You know, those renders, though nice, aren't very practical. How are they building the brick structures? Many of them are very high, and I don't see any scaffolding of sorts. Are they using some sort of robot, or what?

RobS · 2002-10-06 23:58:27

You may be right that a quasi-Gregorian calendar is neither fish nor fowl, and thus may not work well.

I agree, the weekdays simply can't be made the same. Martian Christians and Jews will have to decide how they will solve that problem themselves. It may very well be that the First Martian Church of Christ willend up celebrating Easter on a different day than the Martian Methodist Church, too. But we already have that with Eastern Orthodox Easter different from Catholic and Protestant Easter.

I am not worried that Monsol, September 1, doesn't perfectly line up with Thursday, September 1. I have called New Zealand before and have already had the strange pleasure of asking people how tomorrow looks over on the other side of the planet. This Bulletin Board operates on a different time zone than my home in Indiana by seven hours. Wouldn't it be interesting or cool to get emails from Mars that are current but are dated one day ago or one day in the future? Sometimes it might even be off by two days. At least it would be reasonably familiar to someone unfamiliar with the 56th of Scorpio or some such dating system.

-- RobS

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-07 11:49:33

Thank you Scott. I'm sure the Martians will love not having a calender until they've built their vaults, and they'll love using a fricking sundial even more. Now all they need are copulation rituals centering on the sundial, and they'll be in nirvana.
Come on, mention Communidad de los Fruitcakes. You know you want to.

Mr. Armitage:

The malicious and hostile tone of your previous message is not going to prevent me from participating in the discussions in this forum. However, you will make other people afraid to participate. They will not post their ideas because they fear that you will launch inane attacks on them.

Stop and think about what you are doing. Or is it your intent to sabotage the discussions in this forum?

Scott G. Beach

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-07 12:01:48

You know, those renders, though nice, aren't very practical. How are they building the brick structures? Many of them are very high, and I don't see any scaffolding of sorts. Are they using some sort of robot, or what?

Josh:

The renderings produced by Richard Mallon-Day are based on the ideas of Bruce Mackenzie, who is a graduate of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Mr. Mackenzie is thinking about the process of building such structures. The construction processes would probably include automated excavating machinery for digging foundations and machines that turn excavated regolith into building blocks. You are correct in supposing that scaffolding would be necessary in the construction of the arches. These and many thousands of other details will have to be included in a plan to construct a Martian settlement.

Scott

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-07 15:45:04

I might be replying a little late with this idea, may be an instance where not reading every post will come back to bite me, heh heh

As for religion, why would they want to restructure the dating of religious holdiays, which are usually based on some sort of significant religious event, based on a martian calender, its not like those events took place on Mars.
I think it would be simpler, and a little more orthodox, to just keep track of the Terran date and time in order to fascilitate when they should recognize their rituals.
And for the instance when 12:01 sunday morning on earth is 14:50 tuesday afternoon on mars; i think it would be best left up to the individual what to do, recognize a sabbath and do whatever it is you do to recognize it, or continue on as if it were tuesday.
I think it would be best to recognize only terran sabbaths. As long as you keep track of time everything should be fine.
Again, I hope that noone has said anything similar yet, if they have, sorry...

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-07 16:09:03

As for the calendar itself, I personally think it would be best if we inflated seconds to match the length of the day, that is if the 60:60:24 seconds:minutes:hours that we use here will be used there.
Perhaps if there is no syncronization between terran and martian calanders then perhaps new units of time could be substituted for the old ones.
Perhaps we could change the minutes seconds hours into multiples of eachother. Like 10 martian hours in a day, 100 martian minutes in an hour, and 100 martian seconds in a minute.
Of course this would mean that a martian hour would be more than 2 earth hours long, but how much of an inconveniance would that really be?
As for determining dates for the solstices and equinox's and New Years events, I think the most accurate way would be to count it exactly as the event occurs as Mars moves through space along its orbit.
This could be measured a an Ls angle like in KSR's trilogy, with Ls 0 measured on the vernal equinox exactly as it happens (or as accurately as our intruments can pin it down)
So Ls 0 (new years day, or moment would probably be a better term) would occur not a 12:01 the first full day of the year, therefore requiring a leap year every few years (yet to be determined by me anyway) it would occur what ever time it is anywhere you are on the surface, day or night. All that matters is your position in space.
That being said, I would like to bring forward the suggestion of not using timezones on Mars.
For example, 10th hour (using the 10 hour day) would be midnight on the martian prime meridian, and the opposite side of the planet it would still be 10th hour however it would be noon.
Any comments?

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-07 19:31:28

Nirgal;

What counts is the local sunrises and sunsets. Plus I think it would be simply impractical to follow the Terran sabbaths.

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-08 00:27:05

I personally think its wrong to let any arbitrary ritual get in the way of anything.
I just came up with a way that is least obtrusive to those of us who do not wish to participate in such things.
It leaves recognition of religious holidays up to the individual, without having to design an elaborate calendar to accomodate religion.
I'm just saying, if you are religious, on mars, and wish to recognize sabbaths and whatnot, keep a terran watch on you with the date on it.
It saves everyone a lot of trouble, and takes away the question "Where to put religious holidays on a Martian calendar?"
My answer is simply, "Leave them out" if you want to celebrate some holiday or sabbath do it with the vast majority of humanity on the anniversaries they happen on earth.
It makes more sense to do this. Its not like anyone who wrote the old and new testaments, or any other religious text cared what time of the martian year it was when the events of importance to these faiths occured.
Just look at your watch and if its a sabbath day for you on earth, treat it as a sabbath day on Mars, that is unless lives depend on you going to work that day. This also works for holidays.
No sense in creating some elaborate calendar, we have more important things to worry about.

By the way, is there a such thing as metric timekeeping? If there is, how close is my example of the 10 hour martian day.

As for the local sunset/sunrise thing, I guess you can make a minor adjustment to Martian sunrise/set every time it is necessary, or else know what time the sun is rising/setting at your hometown on Earth...

Just a few thoughts anyway...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Palomar · 2002-10-08 02:57:50

Thank you Scott. I'm sure the Martians will love not having a calender until they've built their vaults, and they'll love using a fricking sundial even more. Now all they need are copulation rituals centering on the sundial, and they'll be in nirvana.
Come on, mention Communidad de los Fruitcakes. You know you want to.
Mr. Armitage:
The malicious and hostile tone of your previous message is not going to prevent me from participating in the discussions in this forum. However, you will make other people afraid to participate. They will not post their ideas because they fear that you will launch inane attacks on them.

*Hmmmm. Looks like there's a bit of the old "pot calling the kettle black" going on here.

Scott previously stated (in the "Destiny Hall" thread):

"I regarded the impassioned responses to the marriage ritual that I proposed as a manifestation of Americans' inability to deal with sexual topics in a mature manner."

Isn't this a form of hostility, Scott?

There are different forms of hostility, one of which attempts to pass itself off as "politely stated" or interjected in "a conversational tone." Of course, it's usually this form of hostility which bristles self-righteously and indignantly (and hypocritically) at bluntness and forthrightness.

The "politely stated"/interjected in "a conversational tone" type of hostility also fancies itself superior to any boldness or directness it may face, and attempts to guilt-induce the person who DOESN'T resort to this type of hostility, i.e. attempts are made to make the bold and upfront person feel -and- look like "a big meanie" or "crude" or "crass." The "politely stated"/interjected in "a conversational tone" type of hostility also believes the receiver of it is too stupid or inadequate to recognize it for what it is. And, of course, if the receiver ISN'T stupid or inadequate, and DOES see it for what it is and calls it out, then that person -- again -- is being "crude" or "crass" or "hostile." What hypocrisy!

Hostility is hostility -- regardless of what form it assumes.

You're entitled to your opinions, of course. But you were also aware that U.S. citizens read and post regularly at these message boards, and decided to make a snide comment anyway. Hostility.

--Cindy

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-08 04:22:47

Cindy:

You have succeeded in injecting another dose of venom into this discussion of Martian Calendar and Timekeeping systems. You should be proud of your efforts. People who visit this forum for the first time will see your posts and be inspired to leave immediately and never return.

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-08 09:10:52

Now, here is a very simple rule that I have learned personally through my experience on the now nearly deceased Civ-Culture list...

Do not reply to hostile posts.

You'll only drive the argument deeper, and push the rest of us away from constructive discussion.
If you feel insulted or personally attacked, let the person who is insulting you embarass themself, do not succumb, because then you look childish too.
Trust Adrian to cut short any potential flame wars from the starting embers. Just dont feed the flames.
Scott, as for the destiny hall thing, you had to know that what you were suggesting so simply was going to offend someone. However I commend you on not getting fiesty about defending your position.
Now Cindy, I think that your most recent post on this thread was a tad out of line, because it is very off-topic.
You should have e-mailed scott personally, or started a new thread and invite Adrian to arbitrate...

I've said my piece, anyone have any further thoughts on this whole calander bit?

Your friendly neighborhood (probably just provoked something) Martian....
-Matt

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-08 09:19:43

Oh, and AJ
Your post that so outrightly bashed Scott didn't have to be posted. Couldn't you have just thought that in your head?
I mean, Scott was, after all, posting on a public thread that you created.
If you didn't want Scott to participate on this thread (which i'm sure Adrian wouldn't allow anyway) You should have put Scott Beach not invited in the topic line.
Don't waste Adrian's bandwidth with inflammatory posts...
Again, you could've just thought that without having to force the rest of us who wish to participate in this thread to read what off-hand comments you have.
(I realize now that I have probably nullified everything I have or will ever say in the eyes of AJ)

Again, I digress (spelling? {; )....) back to the calander talk.

I hold a new calander should be designed based on accurate measurements of Mars's position in its orbit with new lengths of time for familiar units (hours minutes, so forth), and angle measurements for moments like New Year and Solstices
.
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Palomar · 2002-10-08 11:52:43

Cindy:
You have succeeded in injecting another dose of venom into this discussion of Martian Calendar and Timekeeping systems. You should be proud of your efforts. People who visit this forum for the first time will see your posts and be inspired to leave immediately and never return.

*No, Scott; I've simply injected truth into the discussion...that, and exposing hypocrisy for what it is.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

You also don't speak for other persons, i.e. newcomers who might read my posts and how they might respond to them [and which of my posts, exactly? The ones dealing with how to care for infants and children on Mars? Or my posts regarding terraformation? Or my posts about new discoveries in our solar system and extrasolar matters? Or my posts regarding the 18th century in the Free Chat area? Most of my posts DON'T deal with negativity or "flames"]. Your grandiose proclamation of how they might react to my posts ["People who visit this forum for the first time will see your posts and be inspired to leave immediately and never return"] is simply a very silly guilt-induction tactic meant to try and gag me into being quiet. It is also obvious you're wishing that would be their reaction. Your attempts to guilt induce me won't work. I don't presume to think I know how people will react; whatever their reaction may be is their personal responsibility.

If you cannot stomach the fact that some people here consider your ideas preposterous, ludicrous, or just plain silly, perhaps you should reconsider your options.

Apparently your immaturity demands that everyone either agree with you or be guilt induced into being quiet and not criticize you. Too bad for you; you're not above criticism...nobody is.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-10-08 13:30:44

I was happy with KSR's 39 minute timeless period in the middle of the night. It gave me more time in bed for a good sleep! But, logically, I suppose it's better to just lengthen the duration of each second, minute, and hour to fit 24 hours into one Martian day. So that's what we'll do.
Here are the months and the number of days in each:-
JAN 56
FEB 56
MAR 56
APR 55
MAY 56
JUN 55 Total Days 668
JUL 56
AUG 56
SEP 55
OCT 56
NOV 55
DEC 56
Suppose you were born on Earth on June 6th. What day on Mars should you celebrate your birthday? June 6th is 6/30 or 0.2 of the way through June. 0.2 of the way through June on Mars becomes June 11th ... your new birthday! Simple.
This system even allows the retention of the old rhyme to determine how many days there are in each month:-
"55 days hath September,
April, June, and November.
The rest have 56 days clear.
We add one more in each Leap Year."
Now , I don't know how often we need a Leap Year. Perhaps someone with their finger on the pulse can tell me. But for these purposes, it's not crucial that we know that right now...SNIP...
We've sorted out what day it is when we first land on Mars ... but what date is it?

Well? Waddyathink?!!

P.S. I'm in favour of keeping the names of the days the same
too. i.e. Monday, Tuesday, etc. I don't see any reason
to make life any harder than it has to be.

*Interesting post, Shaun. It's strange to think of a month in terms of 50+ days!

I think the scientists should draw up the "standard" calendar, and let the religious folks work in their holidays as they see fit...Christian or Pagan or Muslim. Actually, I think the Pagans will probably have the most fun with a new planetary system...not only might they continue to observe Earth solstices and equinoxes, etc., but can surely create new observances and celebrations for Mars as well.

I actually don't foresee much a difficulty with the religious folk and how their personal calendar might clash with the scientific "standard" one...for instance, at a health-care facility in a nearby city, Jewish employees volunteer to fill in for Christian employees during Christmas...and Christian employees return the favor for Jewish celebrations. They seem to have worked it out quite well.

I also agree with keeping the names of the days of the week ending in "-day." The "-sol" idea is cool, but I think it'd be more practical to leave things as familiarly as they can be...at least initially.

--Cindy

clark · 2002-10-08 13:36:42

"I regarded the impassioned responses to the marriage ritual that I proposed as a manifestation of Americans' inability to deal with sexual topics in a mature manner."

As an american, I find this to a pretty accurate statement- sterotypical, but accurate for many people I know. I'm not surprised by the attitude, since Americans, when compared to most of our Western peers are exceedingly "prudish" when it comes to matters of sex. But hey, we ended up with all the Puritans, so what do you expect?

Our "inability" to discuss sexual matters in what Scott might consider "mature" is of course arbitrary and meaningless since his value for "mature" is derived by comparing his american sterotype against his own personal sense of what is and isn't mature. Now, he has every right to think this way, of course he is much poorer for accepting such a blatant sterotype, which is usualy (but not alawys) indicitive of someone who either feels superior, or is just too intelectualy lazy to think for themselves, instead resorting to an easy script of bias and sterotypes to think for them.

If it works for Scott, i say more power to him, however, I belive he will find that blanket overgeneralizations of entire peoples is not the best method by which to engage in conversation or illicit productive conversation of ideas.

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-08 14:02:56

Apparently your immaturity demands that everyone either agree with you or be guilt induced into being quiet and not criticize you.

Cindy:

You have injected yet another dose of venom into this discussion of Martian Calendar and Timekeeping systems. I predict that you will do that at least four more times. One, two, and counting...

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