Apropos of Nothing

dicktice · 2003-09-24 05:38:37

You're great, Cindy. That topped me!

Byron · 2003-09-24 05:48:09

*This reminds me of a former acquaintance and coworker, Van (male), who hated another coworker named Gacy (female). He once said, "If Gacy and I were the last two human beings on the planet, whatever aliens would come visiting hundreds of years later would find two human skeletons 5,000 miles apart."
--Cindy

Hey, if it was me and that horrid female boss I had a few years ago, I'd made sure we were 10,000 miles apart..lolol

B

Bill White · 2003-09-24 07:15:03

Imagine that you and another of the opposite sex are the only two people in the world. Imagine that if you do not reproduce, you may live indefinitely. If you do however, your life, and all of your children's lives will not last nearly as long.
Is a season lived, better or worse, than a lifetime of just one season?

The scenario clark proposes is the actual story (and dilemma) facing Adam and Eve at least in the original version of that story.

Imagine Milton's Paradise Lost was never written. Wipe away the Sunday School gloss on the Adam and Eve story and re-read the Book of Genesis with new eyes, eyes unhampered by 2000 years of "explanation" - - that is precisely what clark is asking us to do.

<smirk>

Those dang "selfish memes" keep popping up everywhere, don't they?

There does exist a controversy within Christian circles about whether the loss of Eden should be considered a "fortunate fall" and that Eve's eating of the apple was both expected by God and necessary. Although advocates of the "fortunate fall" interpretation are a very tiny minority.

Palomar · 2003-09-24 08:14:56

There does exist a controversy within Christian circles about whether the loss of Eden should be considered a "fortunate fall" and that Eve's eating of the apple was both expected by God and necessary. Although advocates of the "fortunate fall" interpretation are a very tiny minority.

*Yes, the traditional Judeo-Christian story and reaction to it is quite interesting, to wit:

1. Before "the fall" there was no free will for Adam & Eve.
2. Most Christians believe God desired humans to be free-moral agents, even though God told them NOT to touch the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (try telling children directly -not- to do something, and guess what---).
3. Thus, Eve eating the fruit ensured she would be a free-moral agent...and likewise Adam after he ate it, and then all their descendants.
4. Yet they were both condemned for eating the fruit, and both were punished in specific ways.

So, according to the traditional story and its traditional interpretation we've got the free moral agency which God wanted us to have. So then what is the problem? Why the punishments? Doesn't make sense.

As for mating or not with the last human of the opposite gender on the planet. Well, it would depend on a variety of factors, wouldn't it? I would be extremely disinclined to procreate with (much less touch) some man who looks like Quasimoto and has psoriasis, eczema, and lice infestation.

I think so long as both the man and the woman remaining alive were halfway attractive to one another, reasonably healthy, etc., intimacy is bound to occur. That drive is so natural, instinctive...and blessedly human.

Ah well...bear with me. I'm not interested in debating (some of these matters we've discussed here, more than once), just pitching in a few comments. :laugh:

--Cindy

Byron · 2003-09-24 08:33:06

So, according to the traditional story and its traditional interpretation we've got the free moral agency which God wanted us to have. So then what is the problem? Why the punishments? Doesn't make sense.

Yeah, that's what I say. It really doesn't make any sense. It would have been nice if humans retained just a few more of the qualities that make us "good" (altrusim, unconditional love, respect for the common man) and less of what make us "bad" (violence, greed, quest to control others, etc.)

Yes, imagine what things would be like if Adam really did the apple first, and "corrupted" Eve...would this mean that women would have discriminated against men for all of these years?

I think so long as both the man and the woman remaining alive were halfway attractive to one another, reasonably healthy, etc., intimacy is bound to occur. That drive is so natural, instinctive...and blessedly human.

Yes, that's true...unless one or both were gay..lol. But it wouldn't matter anyway, as it would be impossible to carry on the human race from just two people, due to the laws of genetics. I don't know what the absolute minimum would be, but my guess is anywhere from 50 to 100 people...any fewer than this critical number, the human race would be doomed within a few generations...and it wouldn't be pretty, either. ???

B

clark · 2003-09-24 09:02:01

Bill wins this round, but is disqualified for not responding to the question in the form of an answer.

If we accept the 'fall' as endowing humanity with free-will, with choice, then it neccessarily assumes that we accept the broad ranges of behavior that 'free-will' endows humanity with.

A bit like having a choclate cake with a bad tasting frosting.

Beyond that though, in terms of male domination over females, or whatever, is merely using the literal translation of a creation story to rationalize behaviour and norms.

Besides, Eve had to eat the Apple first. It is the women of our species that perpetuate the 'curse'. Men have only a small bit to do with it, and we are fast becoming obsolete with the advances of medical science. :;):

And, there isn't really any huge issues to overcome with the propagation of our species with only two individuals. Sure, the gene pool is limited. Yes, there will be a high number of birth defects, but that is from 'bad' reccessive genes that come into play more often within a closed gene pool.

Of course, I'm not familiar with any "law of genetics", but I would certainly love to hear about them.

clark · 2003-09-24 09:34:18

Instead of "Bake Sales", let's sell "Moon Pies".

Bill White · 2003-09-24 09:40:20

Thanks for the kudos but all I do is re-hash stuff I read elsewhere.

Here, for example, I am guided by Rabbi Burton Visotzky who wrote a charming book called The Genesis of Ethics.

A quote from the amazon review:

As Burton Visotzky says, the Book of Genesis seems to be, at least on first reading, "an ugly little soap opera about a dysfunctional family . . . a story about rape, incest, murder, deception, brute force, sex, and blood lust. But these stories reveal much about human dilemmas and ethical problems that mirror our own lives. By delving into the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, and Esau and holding up these characters of Scripture to the light of critical inquiry, Burton Visotzky reveals much that is fresh and useful about ethics and morality.
"He is a rabbi who is earthy, playful, and full of insight, who refuses to draw a veil over the dark side of the Bible or of our own contemporary experience. "

Visotzky argues that the Book of Genesis sets up countless situations of moral dilemma.

Should Abraham sacrifice Isaac?
Should Eve eat the apple?
Does the Jacob -vs- Esau story come out "fair"?

To my mind, Visotzky is really saying that the stories of Genesis are like Zen koans. The analysis of moral dilemmas - - like clark's dilemma about being the last man and woman on Earth - - are not stories to be revered or given worship but rather are stories to work out and sweat over.

Text [ plus ] our efforts at understanding [ equals ] moral development. Thus to place the Bible under glass or on a pedestal and worship it violates the First Commandment. Thou shalt not worship any (en)graven image.

Looked at this way I find the Bible to be more wonderous and more sacred than I ever thought possible. Its a tool and it needs to be used like a tool.

Also, Jack Miles wrote God: A Biography and amazon says this:

Is it possible to approach God not as an object of religious reverence, but as the protagonist of the world's greatest book -- as a character who possesses all the depths, contradictions, and ambiguities of a Hamlet? How does he depend on the other characters, and how does his relationship with them show his development? Miles provides a learned, original exegesis that will send readers back to the Bible in curious amazement. Winner of the 1996 Pulitzer Prize for biography.

His chapter on Job is mind blowing - - yet I feel Miles fails to push the argument to its logical conclusion. Someday I will write my extension of Miles argument and suggest that the Book of Job (using Miles translation) belongs side by side with the Melian dialouge from Thucydides as together these stories provide unmatched examples for discussion about "Speaking Truth to Power."

clark · 2003-09-24 09:42:56

Thanks for the kudos but all I do is re-hash stuff I read elsewhere.

The Story of Life. :;):

Palomar · 2003-09-24 15:50:54

*I'm all for freedom of thought, and of religion (if one chooses religion). But I have at least 2 comments, Bill:

"Should Abraham sacrifice Isaac?
Should Eve eat the apple?
Does the Jacob -vs- Esau story come out "fair"?

... The analysis of moral dilemmas - - ... -- are not stories to be revered or given worship but rather are stories to work out and sweat over."

*There are numerous other examples of situation ethics, moral dilemmas, etc., in countless other works of literature, myth, etc., written and collected by humans.

Mr. Miles also calls the Bible "the world's greatest book." I beg to differ. IMO, based on my studies (yes, I've read it cover-to-cover), I find it is riddled with contradictions, implausabilities, etc.

But of course, we are all entitled to our beliefs and opinions.

--Cindy

Byron · 2003-09-24 16:07:38

Looked at this way I find the Bible to be more wonderous and more sacred than I ever thought possible. Its a tool and it needs to be used like a tool.

Used as a tool for what? Teaching people that war is a good thing? That things must be done a certain way just because? That homosexuality is an "abomination?" Of course, the Bible often serves as an excellent example of a great deal of our modern-day morality...indeed most of Western common law stems from the Bible...but the problem comes in when people use this "sacred book" to impress their particular belief system upon others, which is something that has certainly caused a great amount of hardship over the ages for a great number of people. (The Crusades, Spanish Inquistion, ad infintum. )

alokmohan · 2003-09-25 04:05:54

Bible is ahistory of thepast ,we ahould see this and all other relion books in their proper perspective.Anthropology is much connected subject.

Palomar · 2003-09-25 06:58:20

*This might shock a some people, but I can give a few "credits" to the Bible. The "Proverbs" (of King Solomon) are good to read, full of wisdom. The "Song of Solomon" is a beautiful erotic poem which must be read slowly to be fully appreciated; it is subtle but intense. Read it with your spouse or significant other with soft music in the background and by the glow of romantic candles...

There is, in the Old Testament, history of importance to the Jews.

I think "The Golden Rule" is a good rule of thumb to live by, but some historians/scholars Jesus Christ was not the first philosopher to espouse this viewpoint.

But as for the theology; "end-times" scenarios; the be-all, end-all of absolute infalliable divinely-inspired truth claims...sorry, I don't buy it.

--Cindy

sethmckiness · 2003-09-25 14:23:15

But as for the theology; "end-times" scenarios; the be-all, end-all of absolute infalliable divinely-inspired truth claims...sorry, I don't buy it.

And to this Religous Talk I quote a one great Political Figure....

Bill the Cat...

"ACK!"

damn hair balls

Palomar · 2003-09-26 13:41:38

Mon dieu!

*How very interesting! I'd like to own a deck...or at least see the English version of it.

Note the Yahoo! headline is misleading. This wasn't created by "The French," but rather by a man named Thierry Meyssan who heads the "reseauvoltaire" -- Voltaire Network. Note also the article refers to it again as "the French deck."

I don't know anything about the organization, and only learned of it today (web site is in French of course...and I can't read it). Voltaire was big on satire, so perhaps that's the connection with his name.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-09-26 14:32:04

*I'm homesick for Iowa!! :*(

I miss all the little lakes; the rustle of drying corn stalks in the wind; watching combines and tractors moving about in the huge, expansive fields; Beverly's pot roast with potatoes, carrots, onions, and celery around it and her light dinner rolls smeared with melting butter; walking to the A & W to get a big frosty mug of homemade root beer; scarecrows perched on porch swings; riding through and stopping in the small, clean farm communities only 5 to 8 miles apart; shopping in Mason City...

--Cindy ::wiping tears away::

Byron · 2003-09-26 15:04:41

*I'm homesick for Iowa!! :*(

Make that North Carolina for me...

I miss the regular change of the seasons, in which summer gradually gives way to stunningly beautiful autumns with the exuberant colors of the trees. I miss the winters with its occasional snowstorm, which was always a special treat, and when just when you got sick of the cold, spring was never far behind with its burst of renewed life. Yes, the summers were hot, but at least they had the sense to go away when it was time..lol.

I really miss the hills and mountains, and the delightful little towns spaced a few miles apart, along with its major cities that have a tendency to act just a tad bigger than they really are. I miss the accents, too...nothin' like the Carolina drawl..lol. And the people are just so much friendlier than here in Florida.

But I do have one thing to look forward to...I'm going there in mid-October to see my parents. Can't wait... :;):

B

Byron · 2003-09-26 15:25:17

Another thing I miss, which relates to me living here in Florida, is the wonderful season of *winter*....

Unlike more poleward climes, this is the place to be in the wintertime...and it's by far my favorite time of the year. Believe it or not (I keep having to tell this to myself during the other 9 months) summer *does* come to an end down here, replaced by a glorious period of absolutely sublime weather, which is like late sping in more "typical" climes. The average January high is 76 degrees, and the average low drops to the upper 50's...ahh...I just can't wait. It makes my spirit glad just thinking about it...

Winter is a time in which my overworked A/C unit finally gets a break, when I'm able to open the windows to let in the fresh air, and you can actually take a walk down to the park without breaking a sweat...lol. I love the long shadows, too, it makes everything have a surreal look to them, even though everything is still just as green as always. It's fun to watch all the snowbirds piling up on the beaches, their faces turned to the sharply tilted sun and swimming in the 72 F water, which, to them, is pure heaven. It's so cool to walk down the Broadwalk in Hollywood on a bright January day and pretend you're in France, as it seems every person from Quebec is there...300,000 of them, anyways...

Just a little more than two more months to go...I can't wait...

B

Byron · 2003-09-28 07:21:36

"Every time I passed through those plant gates to go to work, I left America, and my rights as a free man. I spent nine hours in there, in prison, and then came out into my country again."

-- Quote from ACLU's website that I came across this morning. So true...so painfully true....

B

Shaun Barrett · 2003-09-29 02:35:54

Hi Byron!
Poignant words, indeed, about those "nine hours in there, in prison".
But I think it's just a part of human nature to feel that way about anything we'd rather not be doing. I remember references to "9 months of the year chained to a desk", a child's view of having to go to school. I remember the "tyranny of examinations" and the endless weeks of studying (imprisonment) they imposed.
I've hardly ever worked for anyone but myself, no "plant gates" involved, no boss but me, and yet there have been innumerable days when I felt trapped by the demands of my clients and by my responsibilities to my employees, not to mention my responsibilities to keep my family housed, fed, and healthy. And never a red cent in assistance from any government, just a relentless stream of tax bills largely designed to provide assistance to somebody else and his/her family.

But people in all walks of life make prisons for themselves, even if somebody else isn't doing it for them! We're almost all trapped by circumstances of one sort or another, most often of our own making or choosing.
No man or woman is ever truly free.

Another of your posts in this thread, going back a bit, made comment about the Bible "Teaching people ... That homosexuality is an 'abomination?'"
This attitude is hardly surprising considering the whole Judeo-Christian approach to sex in general. Our bodies are dirty, our minds are dirty, sex is dirty ... !
We are all born in original sin (dirty), we sin nearly every day of our lives (dirty), and our consciences are, or should be, laden with guilt .. (more dirt)!
And that's just the heterosexuals amongst us!!
Now imagine the people who dreamed up a religion like that, trying to get their minds around homosexuality!!!
I suppose 'abomination' is the strongest word they could use without getting themselves into even more sin and guilt!
:laugh:

Byron · 2003-09-29 05:38:14

But people in all walks of life make prisons for themselves, even if somebody else isn't doing it for them! We're almost all trapped by circumstances of one sort or another, most often of our own making or choosing.
No man or woman is ever truly free.

In many ways, I would probably have to agree...maybe its simply human nature to build "prison walls" around themselves.

But let's take that statement "No man or woman is ever truly free." I'm not going to dispute the validity of that statement, but I do have to say some people are much more "free" than others, and not always by their own doing. I don't know how familiar you are with the way things are in 2003 America, but not everyone gets to live in mansions and drive uber-sized SUV's...although this is surely the impression most people outside the U.S. has of us...lol..

In reality, a great number of people (perhaps even a majority) live basically paycheck to paycheck, and life is a daily struggle against things they cannot control, such as higher drug costs, higher health insurance bills, higher property tax rates on their homes, higher rates for car insurance, house insurance...the list goes on and on. But are salaries increasing to keep up with these increased "mandatory" expenses? Heck no! In the past three years, many salaries have actually gone down, if you count the automatic deduction for job-related benefits such as health insurance.

Modern-day Americans are expected to work harder and longer for less money...and while this trend was temporarily reversed in the go-go '90's, this trend has been going on since 1973, which is widely considered the "high tide mark" of the American worker. From WWII to 1973, worker productivity increased by 80 percent, and worker salaries also increased by 80%, leading to the creation of the great Middle Class of the United States. Since then, productivity has increased by over 60%, but salaries have only increased by a fourth of that...leaving a huge gap between what people should be making as opposed to what they are actually getting in their paychecks. And under the Bush adminstration, this trend is accelerating...worker productivity is soaring, while salaries are essentially flat.

And now, our friend Mr. Bush is attempting to re-write the labor laws to take away overtime pay for millions of people (!), while granting it to a few under-paid managers and other "white collar" workers making under 22k a year (big whoopee, as most managers make far more than that.) It is now more difficult than ever to organize and form unions...do you know that in America, your company can fire you for whatever reason...including the slightest bit of union activity? In some companies, you are not even allowed to utter the word "union" within the workplace. (This is no joke!) In many of the larger corporations, the average "grunt" is treated like dirt, especially in modern-day "sweat houses" such is commonly found in telemarketing firms. Do you know that some telephone workers actually have to get permission from their supervisor to get up and go to the bathroom?!? And this is not all...the modern workplace is now rapidly becoming an Owellian landscape of ruthless monitoring, such as the recording of every keystroke, every word that is uttered on the telephone, and so forth...and now, they are currently experimenting with technology to track people's movements...wanna sneak out of the office for a quick breath of fresh air? Better think again..the Boss is watching you. It is these sort of horror stories that are making me pretty darn close to becoming a bona-fide socialist (please excuse me for using a bad word here.)

In this country, you have Big Everything..especially Big Corporations and Big Government, which in my opinion go hand-in-hand... Look at this example: The wonderful city of Ft. Lauderdale is currently drafting a $377 million dollar budget, and yet they feel the need to actually cut the salaries of the people willing to lay their very lives on the line for the rest of us, otherwise known as Police Officers. I'm sorry to say, but this sort of thing does not make me proud to be an American. You would think that after 9-11, that policemen would get just a *tad more* respect than that... <sheds tear> Yes, Big Government is just as callous and greedy as Big Business...in this country, they've been in bed together for a long time now.

So where does that leave the "little guy?" Stuck in a great, big hole, with the cruel world closing in all sides. Frankly, I'm amazed that this country hasn't fallen like the ancient Roman Empire...I guess these sorts of things do take a bit of time.

But is all hope lost for this great nation? Of course not. But it is time for a change...a very big change. I, for one, refuse to be like most politically apathetic Americans, as I do have the firm belief that the individual can make a difference...and I am currently doing all I can to secure the rights of all Americans to live our lives with freedom and dignity, and most of all, *respect.* Things can be better...much better, and I will never rest until that takes place...

'Nuff said...for now.... :;):

B

Shaun Barrett · 2003-09-29 06:05:45

My God, Byron!
America sounds like an awful place.
I whinge about the social security feather bed Australians have enjoyed for years, at the expense of employers and hard-pressed tax-payers, because it really has been too much of a free-ride for too many for too long.
But I'd rather grapple with that than live in a kind of 'maximum-security-workplace-concentration-camp' like the U.S.!
Sheesh ... what a hell-hole!! I had no idea. No wonder some of you American contributors here are so pessimistic about everything.

Byron · 2003-09-29 06:15:01

America sounds like an awful place.

Nothing like the cold, hard truth, eh? Why do you think I would *jump* at the opportunity to be able to move to Australia or New Zealand...lol.

Believe me, you guys think you have problems....it sure ain't nothing like the probs we have!

Better start counting your lucky stars, Shaun...

B

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